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tydigame

Playing Valkyria Chronicles for the first time. Every time they mention Bruhl, I think of Dr. Steve Brule.

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I Don't Like The Biggest Loser

Edit: Changed the title to make it a bit less controversial and more representative of the content of the article.
 
With the release of the kinect, there has been a lot of discussion in the comments and the forum about Jeff and Ryan, and their bodies.  As a social scientist I have complicated feelings about this.  Obviously, there is some aspect of G.I.F.T happening here, but even in more supportive comments, it's interesting to see the way cultural ideas about bodies - and what it's appropriate for bodies to look like - come out in the comments.
 
Look at my own comment, posted on the Biggest Loser Ultimate Workout quick look.  I give both Jeff and Ryan credit for putting themselves out there in the course of all of these Kinect quick looks; in other words, I give them credit for exposing their spoiled identities (that is for not having "appropriately" sized bodies).  This reflects the sociological concept of "stigma," which was described by Erving Goffman in a book titled, imaginitively, Stigma.  In it, he describes the ways that people react to people who fail to meet societal expectations (he used people with disfigurements, disabilities, and cultural identities like race, gender, and sexual orientation that carry with them the connotation of inferiority or moral failing).   It's important to note that neither Goffman nor I is engaged in the process of actually determining whether these groups actually represent a "failing" of any kind.  Rather, we are both only interested in what the people in a given context think is a moral failing.
 
People engage in a variety of behaviors through which they attempt to sanction people - that is, punish them - for failing to meet norms for identity.  But punishing people sometimes means that interactions break down.  So when you're trying to make smalltalk with someone, you can't laugh at their disability, or they'll stop talking to you.  Just so, you won't bother criticizing the morals of the person checking you out at the grocery store because they're wearing a LGBTQ ally button, even if you are homophobic, because it would probably result in you not getting your groceries checked out successfully.  Instead, people engage in a behavior called civil inattention, in which they do everything they can to avoid calling attention to the aspect of the person or the situation that is stigmatizing (the elephant in the room, so to speak).
 
However, in some situations, the stigmatized person has so little power, or is held in such low regard, that people don't feel any need to avoid the conflict created by pointing out their spoiled identity.  Because these people have so little power, we think it is no threat to us if we sanction them for not meeting our standards.  The case of bodyweight is a particularly visible example of this in recent years.
 
People might generally regard being overweight as a sign of some personal failing in American culture; they may believe that it indicates laziness, or a lack of effort or gluttony.  However, these things would hardly prompt the kind of punitive response that people seem willing to inflict on overweight people in society.  There is in face a moral element which causes people (at least, in my belief) to feel that it is acceptable to ridicule and otherwise castigate people who are "fat."  Because there is some connection between BMI and health (although there are methodological problems with this research), people feel that they have a moral obligation to punish "fat" people for the "harm" they are doing to themselves by "not putting down the cake."  This sort of social process is probably meant to be functional: we punish people who are doing stuff that might harm society or waste societal resources.
 
Unfortunately, many things which are functional also have "latent functions," or unintended consequences.  One only needs to read this article describing the effect of participating in The Biggest Loser on winner Kai Hibbert.  She experienced extreme emotional distress, depression, physical injury, and any number of other negative effects in pursuit of a "healthy" weight.  On a societal level, people experience similar effects as they struggle to achieve ideals they can't possibly hope to achieve without unhealthy behaviors and emotional effects (anorexia, depression, other eating disorders, and so on).  The Biggest Loser contributes to these individual and social ills by portraying this drastic weight loss as possible, reasonable, and appropriate behavior (when in fact, it is probably none of those things).
 
As someone who has an obese BMI (at 6'1" and 235lbs, mine is 31) but who is in the gym 200+ minutes a week, I understand the distress that these unreasonable expectations cause people.  Moreover, I understand how those expectations can get in the way of a more healthy approach to exercise, eating, and body image.  Because of all that I've said above, I do hope that Jeff and Ryan (and I) choose to exercise.  However, I hope that we choose to do it for the right reasons, which are to improve our physical abilities and to feel better, and not to feed (pardon the pun) feelings of inadequacy and failure.  I believe those latter factors are the things that The Biggest Loser and its attendant cultural products are designed to encourage, and so that is why I don't and won't watch the show or buy products associated with it.  If Jeff and Ryan do decide to participate in an endurance run, I hope they'd choose another Kinect title as the basis for their pursuit of health, and that they would choose to do so because of their own desire for the outcomes it promises, and not because of the criticism they might face from others.

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LiquidPrince

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Edited By LiquidPrince

I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize?

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HandsomeDead

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Edited By HandsomeDead

I thought I dropped SOCL101 last year?

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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@ChristOnIce said:
" "Social scientist" is more or less another term for "not a scientist."  Get some empirical data through strict methodology, and then you can tout credentials with authority.  Soft science is rife with the sort of bullshittery you display here; projected inferences without solid evidence based on personal bias =/= science. "
Take a look at the links: several are to empirical articles.  Additionally, I think your position reflects a misunderstanding of the distinction between a social scientist and a social critic or social theorist.  The former base their conclusions entirely on empirical data and theory which relates to empirically testable phenomena, the latter to analysis of a more philosophical nature.  Read any social scientific research journal and you can see that the research is indeed rigorous.
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beej

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Edited By beej

I will continue my two part plan of not giving a shit about the biggest loser and anything non entertainment related from whiskey media.

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RsistncE

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Edited By RsistncE
@Brendan said: 
Excess body fat is unhealthy.
Does the thread REALLY need to go any further than this?
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Penelope

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Edited By Penelope
@TimesHero:  
 
Wow, what an unconstructive piece of shit comment. 
 
Even though I disagree with the OP, reading the post makes it pretty clear that he is by no means stupid. I'm inclined to say the opposite. 
 
@tydigame: 
 
People in other countries (at least in Taiwan and Japan) don't have "all those other problems". Almost no one is " pathologically obsessed with their weight" or "skirting the edges of anorexia". 
 
What they do have in my opinion is a healthy fear and a feeling of shame when it comes to being overweight. I think that the mild stress associated with this viewpoint is much better than the health risks that obesity in the U.S. poses. It just goes so drastically against our culture of "Everyone should be happy with themselves!".
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jediknight00719

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Edited By jediknight00719

I feel you are focusing one aspect of the big picture.  I agree, america has a problem in viewing people that are fat are bad.  Its an idea we should change. 
 
But your arguments states that being fat is ok.  Sure being fat would be fine so long as your have an active lifestyle and maintain some sort of exercise.  If not, i think a person that is big has other problems mainly health ones.  It may not be issues at a young age but it will get worse in later years. I guarantee you no doctor is gonna say "well looks like your fat, but don't worry you are healthy now, almost all of them advise you to shed some weight (i got a huge lecture from doctor about it)."
 
You know what, each person is able to live how they want.  If they want to not exercise and eat whatever they want,  more power to them, but know that they may go through more health risk.  Either people don't realize that or don't care much for it.
 
And when i talk about losing weight of course it is in notion of doing it healthy.  Healthy weight loss should be 1-2lbs a week.  In the biggest loser they shed more than that probably because they haven't exercised before (i lost 5lbs first week cause i had never exercised before that) and they exercise throughout the whole week but i'm pretty sure a national television has doctors on hand to ensure people are going through weight loss that is healthy (that is they are eating well and getting enough calories to ensure they can exercise throughout the day). 
  
So while agree with you that social aspects of being fat are bad, i think people that are fat should strive to be HEALTHY rather than look thin.

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timeshero

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Edited By timeshero
@Three0neFive
@TimesHero said:
" I took one glance at the ugly wall of text OP had and I already knew he was rerarded. I have half a mind just to go out and buy it now BECAUSE of it. "
quoting this just so you can't fix that typo
>implying I wanted to fix that typo

I'm using the mobile site on my Android. Not the best keyboard in the world.
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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@jediknight00719 said:
" I feel you are focusing one aspect of the big picture.  I agree, america has a problem in viewing people that are fat are bad.  Its an idea we should change.  But your arguments states that being fat is ok.  Sure being fat would be fine so long as your have an active lifestyle and maintain some sort of exercise.  If not, i think a person that is big has other problems mainly health ones.  It may not be issues at a young age but it will get worse in later years. I guarantee you no doctor is gonna say "well looks like your fat, but don't worry you are healthy now, almost all of them advise you to shed some weight (i got a huge lecture from doctor about it)." You know what, each person is able to live how they want.  If they want to not exercise and eat whatever they want,  more power to them, but know that they may go through more health risk.  Either people don't realize that or don't care much for it. And when i talk about losing weight of course it is in notion of doing it healthy.  Healthy weight loss should be 1-2lbs a week.  In the biggest loser they shed more than that probably because they haven't exercised before (i lost 5lbs first week cause i had never exercised before that) and they exercise throughout the whole week but i'm pretty sure a national television has doctors on hand to ensure people are going through weight loss that is healthy (that is they are eating well and getting enough calories to ensure they can exercise throughout the day).   So while agree with you that social aspects of being fat are bad, i think people that are fat should strive to be HEALTHY rather than look thin. "
You should read the interview I posted in the blog: they are definitely not primarily concerned with health if what Hibbert says is to be believed.
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vaiz

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Edited By vaiz

I took a sociology course too.

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Icemael

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Edited By Icemael
@LiquidPrince said:
" I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize? "
"The Biggest Loser makes insecure fat people feel like they've somehow failed, boo-hoo."
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MisterChief

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Edited By MisterChief

Why the fuck is Karl Pilkington defending fat people?

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PrivateIronTFU

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Edited By PrivateIronTFU

Seriously, why do these newbies keep coming in here and making fucktard posts? 
 
Also, The Biggest Loser, although a show that I don't like, doesn't teach people unhealthy lifestyles. They're playing a game to lose weight faster, and each of their workouts are tailored to that specific person. It also doesn't encourage people to be cruel. It encourages people to get off their ass and work out. If you haven't noticed, this country is crawling with fat people, and this show recognizes that. They never poke fun at people's weight, either. They're always very respectful. So I'm not sure where you get the idea that they're promoting cruel behavior.  
 
Being obese is unhealthy. That's just a fact. But I'm angry now, because I read your entire dumbass post, and now you're MAKING ME DEFEND The Biggest Loser! I'm out.

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ryanwho

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Edited By ryanwho

Bottom line is someone buys this because they want to lose weight. And the game is structured in a way that if people can't handle it it slows down. As opposed to a video, where people tend to just give up if they can't keep up. You can't hold  game accountable for the fact that some 350 pound woman is going to want to look like a model in a month so she gives herself a heart attack.

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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@ryanwho said:
" Bottom line is someone buys this because they want to lose weight. And the game is structured in a way that if people can't handle it it slows down. As opposed to a video, where people tend to just give up if they can't keep up. You can't hold  game accountable for the fact that some 350 pound woman is going to want to look like a model in a month so she gives herself a heart attack. "
I'm not making a direct critique of the safety of the game.
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owl_of_minerva

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Edited By owl_of_minerva

This is a thoughtful and intelligent post, so fuck all the tl;drers and people who want to reduce this to some kind of common sense "be healthy as opposed to unhealthy". Perhaps if you had a bolded distinction between the existence of differing weights/body types and the attitudes we have towards them that might have helped out, but I doubt it. 
Anyway, I too am in favour of an investigation of these Kinect games, although perhaps not Biggest Loser. That said, I find it annoying when people on the site single out Ryan and Jeff as being obligated to do an ER of these fitness games, as that's a nasty and meddling attitude.

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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@owl_of_minerva:  Thanks for the support, not surprising from someone with a Marx photo for their avatar.  :0)
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Penelope

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Edited By Penelope

I would just like to again state that as far as the world goes, the U.S.'s views on being overweight and the attached stigma are the least pressuring in the world. 
 
Makes it hard to argue that our viewpoints need to go even further in that direction. 
 
Thanks for the debate though. It's been interesting.

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LiquidPrince

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Edited By LiquidPrince
@Icemael said:
" @LiquidPrince said:
" I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize? "
"The Biggest Loser makes insecure fat people feel like they've somehow failed, boo-hoo." "
Okay, now expand on the boo hoo part.
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HitmanAgent47

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Edited By HitmanAgent47

This goes all the way back to darwinism of survival of the fittest. This also lead to cultures like the jewish being percecuted and among other things like how ppl with mental illness is subjected to mental hospitals so that these ppl doesn't reproduce. It goes to body image and stuff too and the theory was if we don't have this in check in our society, evolution will go backwards towards a state of de-evolution process. Also being overweight causes the economy alot of problems in the medical field from diabetes to heart diease. Japan was a nation that had laws against a certain weight limit or you lose a part of your pay if you don't take care of your weight. I think it is healthy to take care of yourself, I myself do alot of exercise. I do know for overweight ppl, genetics plays a major role, however just ignoring their self image to the rest of society is sort of irresponsible.  
 
I don't know what the biggest loser is, I don't watch television and I am not subjected to the same brainwashing as everyone else. I would guess it's a t.v show about losing weight and it's suppose to be cruel because that's the first I heard of it.

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jediknight00719

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Edited By jediknight00719
@tydigame said:
" @jediknight00719 said:
" I feel you are focusing one aspect of the big picture.  I agree, america has a problem in viewing people that are fat are bad.  Its an idea we should change.  But your arguments states that being fat is ok.  Sure being fat would be fine so long as your have an active lifestyle and maintain some sort of exercise.  If not, i think a person that is big has other problems mainly health ones.  It may not be issues at a young age but it will get worse in later years. I guarantee you no doctor is gonna say "well looks like your fat, but don't worry you are healthy now, almost all of them advise you to shed some weight (i got a huge lecture from doctor about it)." You know what, each person is able to live how they want.  If they want to not exercise and eat whatever they want,  more power to them, but know that they may go through more health risk.  Either people don't realize that or don't care much for it. And when i talk about losing weight of course it is in notion of doing it healthy.  Healthy weight loss should be 1-2lbs a week.  In the biggest loser they shed more than that probably because they haven't exercised before (i lost 5lbs first week cause i had never exercised before that) and they exercise throughout the whole week but i'm pretty sure a national television has doctors on hand to ensure people are going through weight loss that is healthy (that is they are eating well and getting enough calories to ensure they can exercise throughout the day).   So while agree with you that social aspects of being fat are bad, i think people that are fat should strive to be HEALTHY rather than look thin. "
You should read the interview I posted in the blog: they are definitely not primarily concerned with health if what Hibbert says is to be believed. "
Well  if thats true, that is disappointing since the show does not show any of the unhealthy behaviors giving viewers the idea that they can lose weight if they try hard. 
 
Why are you trying to boycott the game because of the social issues of weight.  I think you will find more people rallying behind if you show more that the show does unhealthy practices to lose weight faster.  Social problems are there but its much harder to make an argument using that because its not as well defined. 
 
But if you tell "hey don't buy this game, the show practices unhealthy behavior here is the proof", then i will fully support you.  (i'm not getting it anyway)  But don't tell me "hey our society think fat people are bad and this show is contributing to that idea."  I can't fully support that because IMO that argument isn't clear-cut.
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timeshero

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Edited By timeshero
@Penelope said:
" @TimesHero:   Wow, what an unconstructive piece of shit comment.  Even though I disagree with the OP, reading the post makes it pretty clear that he is by no means stupid. I'm inclined to say the opposite.  
 
No Caption Provided
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JoelTGM

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Edited By JoelTGM

Wow, interesting and thought provoking.  Good post man.  You sound incredibly intelligent, which is making me actually scared right now.

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melcene

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Edited By melcene

I strongly dislike sociology and sociologists.  I think both are full of bunk with perhaps a grain of truth to them. 
 
People who go overboard in trying to lose weight, and either go all anorexic or have emotional breakdowns - that's on them, not society.  Just as there are these people who apparently have trouble losing weight without becoming a wreck, there are people who lose weight while retaining all semblance of normalcy. 
 
Fat is fat is fat.  Ultimately, its up to us to first, accept what we look like.  I don't mean accept as in be happy with the way we look.  I mean accept as in, if we're fat, acknowledge that we're fat.  God knows I always think I look better in my mind, or sometimes even in the mirror than I do in pictures.  If we are overweight, once we have accepted that as fact, its up to us to decide whether or not we want to do something about it.  For example, I am overweight and I want to do something about it.  Next is actually doing something.  Because wanting to and actually doing it are two different things. 
 
Leave all the sociological crap out of it.  People who choose to go on shows like The Biggest Loser have chosen that for themselves.  They could have said no at any time both before starting the show, and once then have started the show.  THEY are the ones who feel they need to do something about themselves.  Don't blame society.  Because for every person that says "I need to lose weight because society says I should be thinner" there are people that say "fuck that, I'm happy the way I am."  It's all about people and how much they give a shit about what others think of them, and whether they're happy with themselves or not.

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Penelope

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Edited By Penelope
@HitmanAgent47 said:
"

This goes all the way back to darwinism of survival of the fittest. This also lead to cultures like the jewish being percecuted and among other things like how ppl with mental illness is subjected to mental hospitals so that these ppl doesn't reproduce. It goes to body image and stuff too and the theory was if we don't have this in check in our society, evolution will go backwards towards a state of de-evolution process. Also being overweight causes the economy alot of problems in the medical field from diabetes to heart diease. Japan was a nation that had laws against a certain weight limit or you lose a part of your pay if you don't take care of your weight. I think it is healthy to take care of yourself, I myself do alot of exercise. I do know for overweight ppl, genetics plays a major role, however just ignoring their self image to the rest of society is sort of irresponsible.  
 
I don't know what the biggest loser is, I don't watch television and I am not subjected to the same brainwashing as everyone else. I would guess it's a t.v show about losing weight and it's suppose to be cruel because that's the first I heard of it.

"
No. 
 
Just no. 
 
Darwin and evolution has NOTHING to do with this. Even if the ill-effects of being overweight killed people before they would reproduce, that is not how evolution plays out.
 
"It goes to body image and stuff too"? 
 
Thanks for that gem.
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HitmanAgent47

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Edited By HitmanAgent47
@Penelope: Fat ppl date fat ppl all the time. Of course they reproduce, my darwinism example was more about mental illness, criminals and the lesser wanted elements of society. However it's rare to see fat ppl date ppl with good genetics, like super model quality unless they are rich or has a charming personality. In a way, them continuing to pass on fat genetics isn't really helping the human race with all the medical problems that puts a strain on themselves and the medical community. Sure they aren't as rejected as mental patients, however they still go against the social norm society wants ppl to be. In a way, they are slowing reversing the good evolution of americans.
 
What is your counter arguement again? That you believe I am talking about survival of the fittest of fat ppl? No, i'm just saying they are part of the lesser wanted ppl in society, however knowing how fat americans are, this is almost a social norm now. If it's a survival of the fittest, I don't think they can compete in the fitness arena or unless we are talking about work which contributes to the economy. Also you think ppl will marry ppl with the best genetics for looks, yet we have ugly ppl all the time, it seems like they will only have a one night stand with attractive ppl, and marry the unattractive, it's always been that way and that's how society survives. Look I don't believe in darwinism, however that's what their theory suggest and it really has impacted alot of different type of government with their marxist theories. I don't mean to be so insensitive, I don't over eat and I exercise all the time. There is no excuse not to. 
 
About body image, of course there are magazines and the media has an expectation too. That's obvious I suppose, but on a societial level, I believe we like to seperate ppl rather than unite them and that's practically instinct.
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Icemael

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Edited By Icemael
@LiquidPrince said:
" @Icemael said:
" @LiquidPrince said:
" I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize? "
"The Biggest Loser makes insecure fat people feel like they've somehow failed, boo-hoo." "
Okay, now expand on the boo hoo part. "
That's the part where he thinks it's horrible and asks us to boycott it.
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milpool

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Edited By milpool

People want to feel accepted.  Beauty may be culturally defined, but there's nothing wrong with buying into it.  I used to work out regularly, I have gotten lazy over the past couple years, after i met my current girlfriend, and am not in great shape now.  As a result my confidence and self esteem have taken a hit, I don't get as much attention from girls in my every day life and that sucks.  It feels great when you feel liked immediately by others.   
 
People like people who look "healthy"; or youthful.  Looking healthy is essentially looking young; good complexion, white teeth, full head of hair, and generally not much body fat.  There isn't some cultural conspiracy against overweight people, or some elite group that decides what beauty is.  It is a natural occurrence, just like in the animal kingdom, the alpha male would have the biggest, most lush, colorful feathers and a symmetrical body.   And people reacting negatively to a person in their cultural tribe who does not fit in is also a natural occurrence.  
 
The Biggest Loser plays a small, supporting role in this phenomenon.  They are capitalizing on a problem that exists in our society and in any society.  How they go about it is part of another discussion.  I don't think anyone should be particularly surprised that a big budget television show doesn't put ethics first, also that the people who would volunteer to go on such a show, especially The Biggest Loser, wouldn't have some (probably more significant) mental demons to go along with their physical problems.

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Edited By Juno_Loire

The bit about the Biggest Loser is the same problem as every other piece of self-improvement reality programming, which is to say entertainment through the development, positive or negative, from someone else's growth or deterioration. That said, while I would never accuse someone of overthinking videogames, they are missing the mark, and negative brownie points on OP for that, amongst other things. 


also negro I needs me some cake