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tydigame

Playing Valkyria Chronicles for the first time. Every time they mention Bruhl, I think of Dr. Steve Brule.

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I Don't Like The Biggest Loser

Edit: Changed the title to make it a bit less controversial and more representative of the content of the article.
 
With the release of the kinect, there has been a lot of discussion in the comments and the forum about Jeff and Ryan, and their bodies.  As a social scientist I have complicated feelings about this.  Obviously, there is some aspect of G.I.F.T happening here, but even in more supportive comments, it's interesting to see the way cultural ideas about bodies - and what it's appropriate for bodies to look like - come out in the comments.
 
Look at my own comment, posted on the Biggest Loser Ultimate Workout quick look.  I give both Jeff and Ryan credit for putting themselves out there in the course of all of these Kinect quick looks; in other words, I give them credit for exposing their spoiled identities (that is for not having "appropriately" sized bodies).  This reflects the sociological concept of "stigma," which was described by Erving Goffman in a book titled, imaginitively, Stigma.  In it, he describes the ways that people react to people who fail to meet societal expectations (he used people with disfigurements, disabilities, and cultural identities like race, gender, and sexual orientation that carry with them the connotation of inferiority or moral failing).   It's important to note that neither Goffman nor I is engaged in the process of actually determining whether these groups actually represent a "failing" of any kind.  Rather, we are both only interested in what the people in a given context think is a moral failing.
 
People engage in a variety of behaviors through which they attempt to sanction people - that is, punish them - for failing to meet norms for identity.  But punishing people sometimes means that interactions break down.  So when you're trying to make smalltalk with someone, you can't laugh at their disability, or they'll stop talking to you.  Just so, you won't bother criticizing the morals of the person checking you out at the grocery store because they're wearing a LGBTQ ally button, even if you are homophobic, because it would probably result in you not getting your groceries checked out successfully.  Instead, people engage in a behavior called civil inattention, in which they do everything they can to avoid calling attention to the aspect of the person or the situation that is stigmatizing (the elephant in the room, so to speak).
 
However, in some situations, the stigmatized person has so little power, or is held in such low regard, that people don't feel any need to avoid the conflict created by pointing out their spoiled identity.  Because these people have so little power, we think it is no threat to us if we sanction them for not meeting our standards.  The case of bodyweight is a particularly visible example of this in recent years.
 
People might generally regard being overweight as a sign of some personal failing in American culture; they may believe that it indicates laziness, or a lack of effort or gluttony.  However, these things would hardly prompt the kind of punitive response that people seem willing to inflict on overweight people in society.  There is in face a moral element which causes people (at least, in my belief) to feel that it is acceptable to ridicule and otherwise castigate people who are "fat."  Because there is some connection between BMI and health (although there are methodological problems with this research), people feel that they have a moral obligation to punish "fat" people for the "harm" they are doing to themselves by "not putting down the cake."  This sort of social process is probably meant to be functional: we punish people who are doing stuff that might harm society or waste societal resources.
 
Unfortunately, many things which are functional also have "latent functions," or unintended consequences.  One only needs to read this article describing the effect of participating in The Biggest Loser on winner Kai Hibbert.  She experienced extreme emotional distress, depression, physical injury, and any number of other negative effects in pursuit of a "healthy" weight.  On a societal level, people experience similar effects as they struggle to achieve ideals they can't possibly hope to achieve without unhealthy behaviors and emotional effects (anorexia, depression, other eating disorders, and so on).  The Biggest Loser contributes to these individual and social ills by portraying this drastic weight loss as possible, reasonable, and appropriate behavior (when in fact, it is probably none of those things).
 
As someone who has an obese BMI (at 6'1" and 235lbs, mine is 31) but who is in the gym 200+ minutes a week, I understand the distress that these unreasonable expectations cause people.  Moreover, I understand how those expectations can get in the way of a more healthy approach to exercise, eating, and body image.  Because of all that I've said above, I do hope that Jeff and Ryan (and I) choose to exercise.  However, I hope that we choose to do it for the right reasons, which are to improve our physical abilities and to feel better, and not to feed (pardon the pun) feelings of inadequacy and failure.  I believe those latter factors are the things that The Biggest Loser and its attendant cultural products are designed to encourage, and so that is why I don't and won't watch the show or buy products associated with it.  If Jeff and Ryan do decide to participate in an endurance run, I hope they'd choose another Kinect title as the basis for their pursuit of health, and that they would choose to do so because of their own desire for the outcomes it promises, and not because of the criticism they might face from others.

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Juno_Loire

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Edited By Juno_Loire

The bit about the Biggest Loser is the same problem as every other piece of self-improvement reality programming, which is to say entertainment through the development, positive or negative, from someone else's growth or deterioration. That said, while I would never accuse someone of overthinking videogames, they are missing the mark, and negative brownie points on OP for that, amongst other things. 


also negro I needs me some cake

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milpool

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Edited By milpool

People want to feel accepted.  Beauty may be culturally defined, but there's nothing wrong with buying into it.  I used to work out regularly, I have gotten lazy over the past couple years, after i met my current girlfriend, and am not in great shape now.  As a result my confidence and self esteem have taken a hit, I don't get as much attention from girls in my every day life and that sucks.  It feels great when you feel liked immediately by others.   
 
People like people who look "healthy"; or youthful.  Looking healthy is essentially looking young; good complexion, white teeth, full head of hair, and generally not much body fat.  There isn't some cultural conspiracy against overweight people, or some elite group that decides what beauty is.  It is a natural occurrence, just like in the animal kingdom, the alpha male would have the biggest, most lush, colorful feathers and a symmetrical body.   And people reacting negatively to a person in their cultural tribe who does not fit in is also a natural occurrence.  
 
The Biggest Loser plays a small, supporting role in this phenomenon.  They are capitalizing on a problem that exists in our society and in any society.  How they go about it is part of another discussion.  I don't think anyone should be particularly surprised that a big budget television show doesn't put ethics first, also that the people who would volunteer to go on such a show, especially The Biggest Loser, wouldn't have some (probably more significant) mental demons to go along with their physical problems.

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Icemael

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Edited By Icemael
@LiquidPrince said:
" @Icemael said:
" @LiquidPrince said:
" I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize? "
"The Biggest Loser makes insecure fat people feel like they've somehow failed, boo-hoo." "
Okay, now expand on the boo hoo part. "
That's the part where he thinks it's horrible and asks us to boycott it.
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HitmanAgent47

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Edited By HitmanAgent47
@Penelope: Fat ppl date fat ppl all the time. Of course they reproduce, my darwinism example was more about mental illness, criminals and the lesser wanted elements of society. However it's rare to see fat ppl date ppl with good genetics, like super model quality unless they are rich or has a charming personality. In a way, them continuing to pass on fat genetics isn't really helping the human race with all the medical problems that puts a strain on themselves and the medical community. Sure they aren't as rejected as mental patients, however they still go against the social norm society wants ppl to be. In a way, they are slowing reversing the good evolution of americans.
 
What is your counter arguement again? That you believe I am talking about survival of the fittest of fat ppl? No, i'm just saying they are part of the lesser wanted ppl in society, however knowing how fat americans are, this is almost a social norm now. If it's a survival of the fittest, I don't think they can compete in the fitness arena or unless we are talking about work which contributes to the economy. Also you think ppl will marry ppl with the best genetics for looks, yet we have ugly ppl all the time, it seems like they will only have a one night stand with attractive ppl, and marry the unattractive, it's always been that way and that's how society survives. Look I don't believe in darwinism, however that's what their theory suggest and it really has impacted alot of different type of government with their marxist theories. I don't mean to be so insensitive, I don't over eat and I exercise all the time. There is no excuse not to. 
 
About body image, of course there are magazines and the media has an expectation too. That's obvious I suppose, but on a societial level, I believe we like to seperate ppl rather than unite them and that's practically instinct.
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Penelope

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Edited By Penelope
@HitmanAgent47 said:
"

This goes all the way back to darwinism of survival of the fittest. This also lead to cultures like the jewish being percecuted and among other things like how ppl with mental illness is subjected to mental hospitals so that these ppl doesn't reproduce. It goes to body image and stuff too and the theory was if we don't have this in check in our society, evolution will go backwards towards a state of de-evolution process. Also being overweight causes the economy alot of problems in the medical field from diabetes to heart diease. Japan was a nation that had laws against a certain weight limit or you lose a part of your pay if you don't take care of your weight. I think it is healthy to take care of yourself, I myself do alot of exercise. I do know for overweight ppl, genetics plays a major role, however just ignoring their self image to the rest of society is sort of irresponsible.  
 
I don't know what the biggest loser is, I don't watch television and I am not subjected to the same brainwashing as everyone else. I would guess it's a t.v show about losing weight and it's suppose to be cruel because that's the first I heard of it.

"
No. 
 
Just no. 
 
Darwin and evolution has NOTHING to do with this. Even if the ill-effects of being overweight killed people before they would reproduce, that is not how evolution plays out.
 
"It goes to body image and stuff too"? 
 
Thanks for that gem.
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melcene

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Edited By melcene

I strongly dislike sociology and sociologists.  I think both are full of bunk with perhaps a grain of truth to them. 
 
People who go overboard in trying to lose weight, and either go all anorexic or have emotional breakdowns - that's on them, not society.  Just as there are these people who apparently have trouble losing weight without becoming a wreck, there are people who lose weight while retaining all semblance of normalcy. 
 
Fat is fat is fat.  Ultimately, its up to us to first, accept what we look like.  I don't mean accept as in be happy with the way we look.  I mean accept as in, if we're fat, acknowledge that we're fat.  God knows I always think I look better in my mind, or sometimes even in the mirror than I do in pictures.  If we are overweight, once we have accepted that as fact, its up to us to decide whether or not we want to do something about it.  For example, I am overweight and I want to do something about it.  Next is actually doing something.  Because wanting to and actually doing it are two different things. 
 
Leave all the sociological crap out of it.  People who choose to go on shows like The Biggest Loser have chosen that for themselves.  They could have said no at any time both before starting the show, and once then have started the show.  THEY are the ones who feel they need to do something about themselves.  Don't blame society.  Because for every person that says "I need to lose weight because society says I should be thinner" there are people that say "fuck that, I'm happy the way I am."  It's all about people and how much they give a shit about what others think of them, and whether they're happy with themselves or not.

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JoelTGM

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Edited By JoelTGM

Wow, interesting and thought provoking.  Good post man.  You sound incredibly intelligent, which is making me actually scared right now.

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timeshero

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Edited By timeshero
@Penelope said:
" @TimesHero:   Wow, what an unconstructive piece of shit comment.  Even though I disagree with the OP, reading the post makes it pretty clear that he is by no means stupid. I'm inclined to say the opposite.  
 
No Caption Provided
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jediknight00719

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Edited By jediknight00719
@tydigame said:
" @jediknight00719 said:
" I feel you are focusing one aspect of the big picture.  I agree, america has a problem in viewing people that are fat are bad.  Its an idea we should change.  But your arguments states that being fat is ok.  Sure being fat would be fine so long as your have an active lifestyle and maintain some sort of exercise.  If not, i think a person that is big has other problems mainly health ones.  It may not be issues at a young age but it will get worse in later years. I guarantee you no doctor is gonna say "well looks like your fat, but don't worry you are healthy now, almost all of them advise you to shed some weight (i got a huge lecture from doctor about it)." You know what, each person is able to live how they want.  If they want to not exercise and eat whatever they want,  more power to them, but know that they may go through more health risk.  Either people don't realize that or don't care much for it. And when i talk about losing weight of course it is in notion of doing it healthy.  Healthy weight loss should be 1-2lbs a week.  In the biggest loser they shed more than that probably because they haven't exercised before (i lost 5lbs first week cause i had never exercised before that) and they exercise throughout the whole week but i'm pretty sure a national television has doctors on hand to ensure people are going through weight loss that is healthy (that is they are eating well and getting enough calories to ensure they can exercise throughout the day).   So while agree with you that social aspects of being fat are bad, i think people that are fat should strive to be HEALTHY rather than look thin. "
You should read the interview I posted in the blog: they are definitely not primarily concerned with health if what Hibbert says is to be believed. "
Well  if thats true, that is disappointing since the show does not show any of the unhealthy behaviors giving viewers the idea that they can lose weight if they try hard. 
 
Why are you trying to boycott the game because of the social issues of weight.  I think you will find more people rallying behind if you show more that the show does unhealthy practices to lose weight faster.  Social problems are there but its much harder to make an argument using that because its not as well defined. 
 
But if you tell "hey don't buy this game, the show practices unhealthy behavior here is the proof", then i will fully support you.  (i'm not getting it anyway)  But don't tell me "hey our society think fat people are bad and this show is contributing to that idea."  I can't fully support that because IMO that argument isn't clear-cut.
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HitmanAgent47

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Edited By HitmanAgent47

This goes all the way back to darwinism of survival of the fittest. This also lead to cultures like the jewish being percecuted and among other things like how ppl with mental illness is subjected to mental hospitals so that these ppl doesn't reproduce. It goes to body image and stuff too and the theory was if we don't have this in check in our society, evolution will go backwards towards a state of de-evolution process. Also being overweight causes the economy alot of problems in the medical field from diabetes to heart diease. Japan was a nation that had laws against a certain weight limit or you lose a part of your pay if you don't take care of your weight. I think it is healthy to take care of yourself, I myself do alot of exercise. I do know for overweight ppl, genetics plays a major role, however just ignoring their self image to the rest of society is sort of irresponsible.  
 
I don't know what the biggest loser is, I don't watch television and I am not subjected to the same brainwashing as everyone else. I would guess it's a t.v show about losing weight and it's suppose to be cruel because that's the first I heard of it.

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LiquidPrince

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Edited By LiquidPrince
@Icemael said:
" @LiquidPrince said:
" I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize? "
"The Biggest Loser makes insecure fat people feel like they've somehow failed, boo-hoo." "
Okay, now expand on the boo hoo part.
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Penelope

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Edited By Penelope

I would just like to again state that as far as the world goes, the U.S.'s views on being overweight and the attached stigma are the least pressuring in the world. 
 
Makes it hard to argue that our viewpoints need to go even further in that direction. 
 
Thanks for the debate though. It's been interesting.

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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@owl_of_minerva:  Thanks for the support, not surprising from someone with a Marx photo for their avatar.  :0)
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owl_of_minerva

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Edited By owl_of_minerva

This is a thoughtful and intelligent post, so fuck all the tl;drers and people who want to reduce this to some kind of common sense "be healthy as opposed to unhealthy". Perhaps if you had a bolded distinction between the existence of differing weights/body types and the attitudes we have towards them that might have helped out, but I doubt it. 
Anyway, I too am in favour of an investigation of these Kinect games, although perhaps not Biggest Loser. That said, I find it annoying when people on the site single out Ryan and Jeff as being obligated to do an ER of these fitness games, as that's a nasty and meddling attitude.

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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@ryanwho said:
" Bottom line is someone buys this because they want to lose weight. And the game is structured in a way that if people can't handle it it slows down. As opposed to a video, where people tend to just give up if they can't keep up. You can't hold  game accountable for the fact that some 350 pound woman is going to want to look like a model in a month so she gives herself a heart attack. "
I'm not making a direct critique of the safety of the game.
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ryanwho

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Edited By ryanwho

Bottom line is someone buys this because they want to lose weight. And the game is structured in a way that if people can't handle it it slows down. As opposed to a video, where people tend to just give up if they can't keep up. You can't hold  game accountable for the fact that some 350 pound woman is going to want to look like a model in a month so she gives herself a heart attack.

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PrivateIronTFU

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Edited By PrivateIronTFU

Seriously, why do these newbies keep coming in here and making fucktard posts? 
 
Also, The Biggest Loser, although a show that I don't like, doesn't teach people unhealthy lifestyles. They're playing a game to lose weight faster, and each of their workouts are tailored to that specific person. It also doesn't encourage people to be cruel. It encourages people to get off their ass and work out. If you haven't noticed, this country is crawling with fat people, and this show recognizes that. They never poke fun at people's weight, either. They're always very respectful. So I'm not sure where you get the idea that they're promoting cruel behavior.  
 
Being obese is unhealthy. That's just a fact. But I'm angry now, because I read your entire dumbass post, and now you're MAKING ME DEFEND The Biggest Loser! I'm out.

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MisterChief

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Edited By MisterChief

Why the fuck is Karl Pilkington defending fat people?

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Icemael

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Edited By Icemael
@LiquidPrince said:
" I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize? "
"The Biggest Loser makes insecure fat people feel like they've somehow failed, boo-hoo."
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vaiz

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Edited By vaiz

I took a sociology course too.

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tydigame

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@jediknight00719 said:
" I feel you are focusing one aspect of the big picture.  I agree, america has a problem in viewing people that are fat are bad.  Its an idea we should change.  But your arguments states that being fat is ok.  Sure being fat would be fine so long as your have an active lifestyle and maintain some sort of exercise.  If not, i think a person that is big has other problems mainly health ones.  It may not be issues at a young age but it will get worse in later years. I guarantee you no doctor is gonna say "well looks like your fat, but don't worry you are healthy now, almost all of them advise you to shed some weight (i got a huge lecture from doctor about it)." You know what, each person is able to live how they want.  If they want to not exercise and eat whatever they want,  more power to them, but know that they may go through more health risk.  Either people don't realize that or don't care much for it. And when i talk about losing weight of course it is in notion of doing it healthy.  Healthy weight loss should be 1-2lbs a week.  In the biggest loser they shed more than that probably because they haven't exercised before (i lost 5lbs first week cause i had never exercised before that) and they exercise throughout the whole week but i'm pretty sure a national television has doctors on hand to ensure people are going through weight loss that is healthy (that is they are eating well and getting enough calories to ensure they can exercise throughout the day).   So while agree with you that social aspects of being fat are bad, i think people that are fat should strive to be HEALTHY rather than look thin. "
You should read the interview I posted in the blog: they are definitely not primarily concerned with health if what Hibbert says is to be believed.
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timeshero

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Edited By timeshero
@Three0neFive
@TimesHero said:
" I took one glance at the ugly wall of text OP had and I already knew he was rerarded. I have half a mind just to go out and buy it now BECAUSE of it. "
quoting this just so you can't fix that typo
>implying I wanted to fix that typo

I'm using the mobile site on my Android. Not the best keyboard in the world.
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jediknight00719

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Edited By jediknight00719

I feel you are focusing one aspect of the big picture.  I agree, america has a problem in viewing people that are fat are bad.  Its an idea we should change. 
 
But your arguments states that being fat is ok.  Sure being fat would be fine so long as your have an active lifestyle and maintain some sort of exercise.  If not, i think a person that is big has other problems mainly health ones.  It may not be issues at a young age but it will get worse in later years. I guarantee you no doctor is gonna say "well looks like your fat, but don't worry you are healthy now, almost all of them advise you to shed some weight (i got a huge lecture from doctor about it)."
 
You know what, each person is able to live how they want.  If they want to not exercise and eat whatever they want,  more power to them, but know that they may go through more health risk.  Either people don't realize that or don't care much for it.
 
And when i talk about losing weight of course it is in notion of doing it healthy.  Healthy weight loss should be 1-2lbs a week.  In the biggest loser they shed more than that probably because they haven't exercised before (i lost 5lbs first week cause i had never exercised before that) and they exercise throughout the whole week but i'm pretty sure a national television has doctors on hand to ensure people are going through weight loss that is healthy (that is they are eating well and getting enough calories to ensure they can exercise throughout the day). 
  
So while agree with you that social aspects of being fat are bad, i think people that are fat should strive to be HEALTHY rather than look thin.

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Penelope

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Edited By Penelope
@TimesHero:  
 
Wow, what an unconstructive piece of shit comment. 
 
Even though I disagree with the OP, reading the post makes it pretty clear that he is by no means stupid. I'm inclined to say the opposite. 
 
@tydigame: 
 
People in other countries (at least in Taiwan and Japan) don't have "all those other problems". Almost no one is " pathologically obsessed with their weight" or "skirting the edges of anorexia". 
 
What they do have in my opinion is a healthy fear and a feeling of shame when it comes to being overweight. I think that the mild stress associated with this viewpoint is much better than the health risks that obesity in the U.S. poses. It just goes so drastically against our culture of "Everyone should be happy with themselves!".
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RsistncE

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Edited By RsistncE
@Brendan said: 
Excess body fat is unhealthy.
Does the thread REALLY need to go any further than this?
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beej

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Edited By beej

I will continue my two part plan of not giving a shit about the biggest loser and anything non entertainment related from whiskey media.

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tydigame

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Edited By tydigame
@ChristOnIce said:
" "Social scientist" is more or less another term for "not a scientist."  Get some empirical data through strict methodology, and then you can tout credentials with authority.  Soft science is rife with the sort of bullshittery you display here; projected inferences without solid evidence based on personal bias =/= science. "
Take a look at the links: several are to empirical articles.  Additionally, I think your position reflects a misunderstanding of the distinction between a social scientist and a social critic or social theorist.  The former base their conclusions entirely on empirical data and theory which relates to empirically testable phenomena, the latter to analysis of a more philosophical nature.  Read any social scientific research journal and you can see that the research is indeed rigorous.
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HandsomeDead

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Edited By HandsomeDead

I thought I dropped SOCL101 last year?

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I was gonna read but then I realized it was way longer then one paragraph. Anyone care to summarize?

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Red

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Edited By Red

I dunno, people seem pretty damn happy at the end of that show. I don't watch it, but I think encouraging people to lose weight is a perfectly noble goal, and while going overboard is a little unhealthy, it's also one of the best ways to quit. 
 
I'm pleasantly plump myself, and as terrible as the game looks, I don't feel discriminated or offended the least bit by any parts of the TV show. Probably one of the most interesting parts of Super Size Me was when the guy related an anecdote about an obese woman telling off someone for smoking, while eating a fattening meal. It's an unhealthy lifestyle, almost always brought upon either the person themselves, or their parents for feeding them crap and teaching them little about nutrition, one that should be stopped.  

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ChristOnIce

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"Social scientist" is more or less another term for "not a scientist."
 
Get some empirical data through strict methodology, and then you can tout credentials with authority.  Soft science is rife with the sort of bullshittery you display here; projected inferences without solid evidence based on personal bias =/= science.

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Three0neFive

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@TimesHero said:
" I took one glance at the ugly wall of text OP had and I already knew he was rerarded. I have half a mind just to go out and buy it now BECAUSE of it. "
quoting this just so you can't fix that typo
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timeshero

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Edited By timeshero

I took one glance at the ugly wall of text OP had and I already knew he was rerarded. I have half a mind just to go out and buy it now BECAUSE of it.

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tydigame

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@awesomeusername: Corrected.
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Shadow

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Who...cares?

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awesomeusername

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@tydigame said:

 (he used people with disfigurements, disabilities, and cultural identities like race, gender, and sexual orientation that carry with them the connotation of inferiority or moral failiing).    
You misspelled failing.
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Icemael

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Sorry, I'm not going to boycott something because it might hurt fat people with low self-esteem's feelings.

But then, I'm not buying the game in the first place, because I'm not fat.

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tydigame

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@Penelope said:

" To play Devil's Advocate even further I believe that you can't have an absence of criticism either or it leads to things like this:
 
  http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/04-05-2006/79855-americans-0/
 
America has the largest obesity problem in the world, and even if you include internet teasing we are still the most polite about it. I've lived abroad for years and if you think being overweight in the U.S. is tough try doing it in Japan or Taiwan. I have heard people say "Oh, you need to lose weight or you will never get a boyfriend!" to little asian girls who weigh no more than 130lbs. 
 
Dieting is a cultural norm there and CONSTANT worry for young women. Girls most americans would never think of as overweight are encouraged to diet. Being overweight is a huge source of pressure and social stigma.
 
You know what though?
 
It works. Hurt feelings aside it is incredibly rare to see an overweight person in Asia. Coming back to the U.S. after some time abroad is a bit like coming back to a spoiled fat child that is too immature and wailingly proud to handle criticism healthily. Calling people fat is rude, so we don't do it. The cultural norm then changes to where it's ok to be overweight and people feel less pressure about their health and how they look so they make little or no effort to control it.
 
I believe that the coddling of American's feelings in recent decades has been to the detriment of our society. Every child is special and naturally gifted? Hearing that message your whole life can lead to some pretty warped views.
 
 http://www.thinkdesigninteract.com/misc/confidence-or-stupidity/
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg
 
Look, I love Jeff and Ryan. Awesome guys who, in all honesty, I kind of idolize. They are however overweight, and you know what? It might actually be good for them if they didn't have a team of people defending them from the people who point it out. 
 
Required Viewing  "

Ok, but dude, this is what I'm saying about different values.  You're saying it's better for people to be pathologically obsessed with their weight, skirt the edges of anorexia, and be thin, than to be fatter, but not have all of those other problems.  I think it's better for people to have their psychological well-being intact.  Both of those things have health benefits attached to them.
 
Edit 11:17PM:
 
I realized I hadn't fully made my point here.  If we assume that your position and mine are morally equal (i.e. it comes down to values) the reason that I feel I have a grievance to voice is because (and I think the comments illustrate this) the dominant view is that fat people are morally flawed (i.e. they have a stigmatized identity).  But I think it's unfair to consider it to be a moral failing on their part that they don't share your perspective about eating and weight, etc.
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Penelope

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To play Devil's Advocate even further I believe that you can't have an absence of criticism either or it leads to things like this:
 
  http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/04-05-2006/79855-americans-0/
 
America has the largest obesity problem in the world, and even if you include internet teasing we are still the most polite about it. I've lived abroad for years and if you think being overweight in the U.S. is tough try doing it in Japan or Taiwan. I have heard people say "Oh, you need to lose weight or you will never get a boyfriend!" to little asian girls who weigh no more than 130lbs. 
 
Dieting is a cultural norm there and CONSTANT worry for young women. Girls most americans would never think of as overweight are encouraged to diet. Being overweight is a huge source of pressure and social stigma.
 
You know what though?
 
It works. Hurt feelings aside it is incredibly rare to see an overweight person in Asia. Coming back to the U.S. after some time abroad is a bit like coming back to a spoiled fat child that is too immature and wailingly proud to handle criticism healthily. Calling people fat is rude, so we don't do it. The cultural norm then changes to where it's ok to be overweight and people feel less pressure about their health and how they look so they make little or no effort to control it.
 
I believe that the coddling of American's feelings in recent decades has been to the detriment of our society. Every child is special and naturally gifted? Hearing that message your whole life can lead to some pretty warped views.
 
 http://www.thinkdesigninteract.com/misc/confidence-or-stupidity/
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg
 
Look, I love Jeff and Ryan. Awesome guys who, in all honesty, I kind of idolize. They are however overweight, and you know what? It might actually be good for them if they didn't have a team of people defending them from the people who point it out. 
 
Required Viewing 

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tydigame

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@ryanwho said:
" Snesitive fat guy thinks he's an internet psychologist. "
Internet SOCIOLOGIST, please.
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ryanwho

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Snesitive fat guy thinks he's an internet psychologist.

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SeriouslyNow

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@9cupsoftea said:
" @SeriouslyNow: I completely agree with you that corporate america is in the business of creating emotional needs, but it's up to people themselves to recognise that and exhibit some discern. You can't have individual freedom, then complain that you don't know how to use it.      "
It is up to individuals but then what is an individual these days?  Is it their social media face?  Is it their job?  Their income?  Their family?  Their consumer products owned?  Their religious context?  Their cultural background?  Their body shape? 
 
What is the compass for delineating said individual from everyone else?
 
It's really hard to tell these days.
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shivermetimbers

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Edited By shivermetimbers

Someone elses opinion about you shouldn't make you feel depressed. If it does, it's an esteem issue. The game isn't part of the problem.

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tydigame

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@9cupsoftea said:
" @SeriouslyNow: I completely agree with you that corporate america is in the business of creating emotional needs, but it's up to people themselves to recognise that and exhibit some discern. You can't have individual freedom, then complain that you don't know how to use it.      "
Right, that's the underlying rationale for me posting this in the first place: read more deeply into cultural products.
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scarace360

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Fat people how do they work?

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9cupsoftea

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Edited By 9cupsoftea
@SeriouslyNow: I completely agree with you that corporate america is in the business of creating emotional needs, but it's up to people themselves to recognise that and exhibit some discern. You can't have individual freedom, then complain that you don't know how to use it.     
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SeriouslyNow

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@Brendan said:
"
Excess body fat is unhealthy.  Stop turning a biological issue into a sociological one.  You're like those people who say "Ooooh, don't worry that you're overweight, it doesn't matter!"  It DOES matter, because it's un-fucking-healthy.  I will never judge someone based off their weight, nor does that matter to me in the context of who someone is.  Taken by itself, however, excess fat is bad.  Losing weight and therefore being healthy, is good.  It is that fucking simple.  This does not excuse the horrible comments during the Kinect chat, however.  That is a social issue.     "
Excessive negative stigmatisation is probably more unhealthy on the whole.  The Biggest Loser quite clearly trades off the stigma - even in its name.  Weight gain in humans (when it's not genetic or due to medical circumstance like some forms of encephalitis) is primarily a function emotional context.  Humans have long sought the succor of food.  Food is comforting because it represents safety.  Unfortunately in Corporate America it also represents massive income because Advertising plays on that aspect often appealing to people's desires for safety and comfort to advertise food.  Most ads selling food depict people in groups enjoying food (which appeals to the base desires for comfort in groups, safety in numbers and social acceptance) or have caricatures of seemingly friendly archetypes (once again representing comfort at some level) attached to their campaigns.  So I find it really insulting that a show like The Biggest Loser exists at all.  It trades off the excessive negative stigma which advertisers have created as they have fed Western People to Excess in order to earn a buck.  On one side we have people who seek and are rewarded by comfort in consuming vast amounts of food, people who are merely following rules laid down by other people who seek to earn an income from that desire for comfort while on the other side we have people who are made to feel ashamed for consuming these vast amounts of food to the point where their bodies are held up as an example of failure.  Meanwhile the advertisers, manufacturers and corporations make money from both ends of the deal and people on the whole really don't change for the better, they just end up feeling more worthless and less valued.
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tydigame

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@Brendan:  We could keep going around about this, but I don't think we're going to come to an agreement about the definitional aspects of this discussion.  However, I'm more than happy to accept that (if you are) in light of your condemnation of the abusive comments.
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Brendan

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@tydigame said:
" @Brendan said:
" @tydigame said:
" @Brendan said:
"
Excess body fat is unhealthy.  Stop turning a biological issue into a sociological one.  You're like those people who say "Ooooh, don't worry that you're overweight, it doesn't matter!"  It DOES matter, because it's un-fucking-healthy.  I will never judge someone based off their weight, nor does that matter to me in the context of who someone is.  Taken by itself, however, excess fat is bad.  Losing weight and therefore being healthy, is good.  It is that fucking simple.  This does not excuse the horrible comments during the Kinect chat, however.  That is a social issue.     "
But what the term "excess" means is not absolute.  It's socially defined.  Moreover, the idea that having "excess" fat is a moral failing is cultural, not biological.  Ane you'll observe that in addressing these issues, I never made the claim that being overweight is healthy.  I only implied that the pursuit of a "healthy" body may have health costs in psychological and nutritional outcomes, and that this should be considered in our advocacy for healthy behavior. "

No, YOU believe that "excess" is socially defined.  It has been defined that normal body fat percentage is around 13%, and that anything more than a few percentages above that is unhealthy.  Even if you have no immediate cholesterol problems associated with your weight, energy, chemical balance in the brain associated with mood (associated with diet), and musculoskeletal problems are clearly associated with excess body fat.  People love to make weight into a societal issue because people plug a metric ton of emotion into the subject.  You can do it all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the intelligent desicion for people to make is to work at having a healthy amount of body fat.    "
When you say, "It has been defined that..." who made that definition?  People did, and using some metric (it sounds like cardiovascular health is the metric you're using in the rest of the paragraph).  But suppose my metric for excess is different.  I could define "excess" much differently than you do, and there is no absolute guide to which of us is correct; it depends entirely on our values, which we may not share. "

You are beginning to make yourself look ridiculous.  You can go down the sociology student rabbit hole all day until we get to "I think, therefore I am" but that fact is that high correlation between (how do I put this?) "Awfully shitty things happening to your body-itus"  and excess body fat, which is also correlated to cardio vascular health (because we studied these things in a lot of people for a long time!) has been proven through constant study for about 50 years now.  It's not 100% certain, but if you have very much more than 13% body fat, bad things are most likely happening to your body (again, through study!).  This is why we consider excess bodt fat bad.   
 
For reference to your article, I clearly abhor what the people in the comments said.  Jeff and Ryan are great guys regardless of how well they take care of their body, and I will never look down on somone for being overweight.  That being said, I'm not going to trade brains for sympathy and say that we should ban the societal push for being healthy.  That societal push has scientific backing that what The Biggest Loser is selling is good for people.  I have seen the show a few times.  In a vacuum it does not promote anything but healthy living, which is a great message.  People will be assholes regardless of what is the popular opinion, that show does nothing to promote being an asshole more than anything else does.
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tydigame

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@Brendan said:
" @tydigame said:
" @Brendan said:
"
Excess body fat is unhealthy.  Stop turning a biological issue into a sociological one.  You're like those people who say "Ooooh, don't worry that you're overweight, it doesn't matter!"  It DOES matter, because it's un-fucking-healthy.  I will never judge someone based off their weight, nor does that matter to me in the context of who someone is.  Taken by itself, however, excess fat is bad.  Losing weight and therefore being healthy, is good.  It is that fucking simple.  This does not excuse the horrible comments during the Kinect chat, however.  That is a social issue.     "
But what the term "excess" means is not absolute.  It's socially defined.  Moreover, the idea that having "excess" fat is a moral failing is cultural, not biological.  Ane you'll observe that in addressing these issues, I never made the claim that being overweight is healthy.  I only implied that the pursuit of a "healthy" body may have health costs in psychological and nutritional outcomes, and that this should be considered in our advocacy for healthy behavior. "

No, YOU believe that "excess" is socially defined.  It has been defined that normal body fat percentage is around 13%, and that anything more than a few percentages above that is unhealthy.  Even if you have no immediate cholesterol problems associated with your weight, energy, chemical balance in the brain associated with mood (associated with diet), and musculoskeletal problems are clearly associated with excess body fat.  People love to make weight into a societal issue because people plug a metric ton of emotion into the subject.  You can do it all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the intelligent desicion for people to make is to work at having a healthy amount of body fat.    "
When you say, "It has been defined that..." who made that definition?  People did, and using some metric (it sounds like cardiovascular health is the metric you're using in the rest of the paragraph).  But suppose my metric for excess is different.  I could define "excess" much differently than you do, and there is no absolute guide to which of us is correct; it depends entirely on our values, which we may not share.