@Brodehouse: I honestly think that, instead of rape being moved to the same acceptable area as torture, torture should move more towards rape; taboo subject unless you really think you can do it properly

@Brodehouse: With Borderlands 2, I mostly agree with what the Idle Thumbs were saying recently - that if that game's sense of humour existed along a wider spectrum (ie mainstream gaming wasn't 90% exactly the type of thing it's trying to make fun of/engage in) then it would be more interesting.

They can be, we just let all of the crazy feminists talk over the reasonable ones that just want fewer CIA agents in skimpy latex onesies. Which, to be clear, I would like less of too.

See, there is this group of women who like to obsess over every little possible thing that could ever be connected to women in general in ways that they can't be connected to men, and abuse the shit out of the fact that those things exist. Just like there are idiots that still blame whitey for their own sorry life, or their parents for they themselves being shitty parents.

And their a small group, most women, even the feminists among them, are content to be reasonable, and to just say "hey, no gross weirdness guys, ok?" But the minority is as usual, a vocal, noisy, annoying one. And of course, political correctness would have us confine to the vocal minority rather than the perhaps not quite as vocal majority.

And yeah, at least six people will think what I just said was sexist or something, but fuck it.

TLDR: People are stupid, and take advantage of the very thing they claim to be defending, just so they can be incensed about something and play the victim. Sexism has nothing to do with why we are told rape shouldn't be in video games at all, not even a little. Nor is this something that only video games put up with.

@The_Vein said:

The danger with putting rape into any story is that it is an easy way to generate sympathy or anger towards certain characters. Writers can become quite lazy when coming up with motivations for female characters when all they have to do is throw rape around, making it into a crutch rather than really thinking about what effects it would really be having.

Not that one can't take rape and really make great stories with it being involved, it's just most people will use it as nothing more than the crutch to hang their revenge fantasy on.

When rape is a lazy throw away thing, it's always done in a lazy throw away kind of fashion: it's just a character saying "Oh woe is me, I was raped as a wee lass," very few mediums ever actually approach the subject of rape as the focus of a scene of the theme of a narrative. Almost no one wants to touch it, because it gets people pissy and upset.

@Brodehouse: I honestly think that, instead of rape being moved to the same acceptable area as torture, torture should move more towards rape; taboo subject unless you really think you can do it properly

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Chavtheworld said:

The backlash about Tomb Raider was not just because they mentioned using rape in the story, it was the way they were using it. The whole "feeling like you have to protect Laura" bullshit, because apparently strong female leads don't exist, and everyone who plays games is a man.

1. Feeling like you have to protect a woman who is in danger is gut-instinct for males. That's your most basic instincts kicking in and saying "PROTECT THE CHILD-BEARER YOU DIPSHIT." Playing off of that is a good way to build a connection between the player and the protagonist.

2. Feeling the need to protect a person/character/whatever does not strip power from that person/character/whatever. Lara is still the one putting boots to asses. She's still the one in extremely perilous situations and (on-screen) she is the one getting herself out of it. Being a "strong female lead" does not imply that you're invulnerable to pain or the very real threat of rape on an island full of savage pirates.

3. Most of the people who will play Tomb Raider will indeed rock sausage. That's just the way the demos shake out, son.

you're probably correct, but it turned me off pretty hardcore?

I think the reason rape is more taboo than murder is simply because people who have been raped are still around, whilst those who were murdered... well, are not. Do you want to start putting rape warnings? does the ESRB say anything about rape I can't remember

Fair enough that it turned you off to the game. My whole point with defending what the lead whatever said about "protecting Lara" was to better illustrate his point (which admittedly he did a poor job of himself). I feel that 90% of people's misgivings with what he said comes from misunderstanding his point.

As far your point on rape in games goes, I'm not sure rape warnings are even necessary. We've dallied back and forth on this topic a few times already, but my point in regards to that is the following: I don't believe we should turn something like rape into a bogeyman by giving the subject its own special warning or rating. I honestly wasn't even aware of these so-called "trigger" whatevers until people like Arthur Gies started popping off about one of his dumb crusades.

Probably because rape doesn't have much of a place in video games. To visually put it on screen is disgusting and is a cheap way to conjure "emotion" in the player/viewer without using any form of subtlety. I immediately stop watching any movie with rape being preformed. I'd do the same for games.

@Brodehouse said:

@Animasta

@Brodehouse: I honestly think that, instead of rape being moved to the same acceptable area as torture, torture should move more towards rape; taboo subject unless you really think you can do it properly

I think you and I would disagree on 'taboo', since I'm a pretty dire supporter of free speech, even if what someone uses it for completely sucks. Even fucking assholes like Westboro or the Klan or whatever. I'd rather anyone be able to talk about torture and rape and the holocaust and the audience be able to make their own personal decisions than have speech be policed by whatever dogma is popular at the time. I'll take a thousand bad Borderlands torture jokes if it creates one good torture-related joke (or dramatic scene, or whatever). I'm fully capable of choosing what I appreciate.

I merely meant that people be more cautious when approaching stuff like rape or torture or whatever.

@Oldirtybearon: No, trigger warnings are important. It's not turning it into a bogeyman, it's the prevention of psychological harm.

@Brodehouse said:

@forkboy

Because video games writing is far from mature enough to handle something like this in a way that wouldn't trivialise something horrific.

Bullshit. Bad writers exist in every form and medium, but we don't censor those mediums from broaching the subject altogether. Terrible slash fiction does not justify censoring the written word, Michael Bay does not justify the silence of all film regarding whatever topic you chose. There's two elements to this; the complete dismissal of video games as an art form, and a complete abdication of intellectual honesty in favor of emotional vulnerability. And no rational person would tolerate either.

Eh, I didn't say it should be banned from happening, I said I have absolutely no fucking interest in it happening. No idea where you got this idea of me being pro-censorship from.

Video games are great. I mean fucking hell, I'm on Giant Bomb. Duh. But think about it? Look at how the fast majority of video games handle violence. It's frivolous & fun & entertaining. Very few games actually manage to put across the horror of violence, the dehumanising effects, & so forth. So where's the evidence that video gaming would handle rape in any more of a subtle & more respectful manner? I mean when I think of examples of rape in cinema the first thing that comes to mind for me is the Swedish version of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. I haven't actually watched it in about 3 years but thinking back to it I just remember feeling horrible. I mean it was thoroughly unpleasant to watch someone, a person in a position of power, raping a young & vulnerable woman. I was reviled. Meanwhile in gaming it's rare enough that any genuine emotion can be elicited.

I don't want rape to be trivialise. Because already there's fucking "men rights" lunatics sitting on places like Reddit, but in the real world too, chirping those stupid, thoughtless lines about asking to be raped with what you wear & all these other bullshit attempts to turn a victim of an appalling act of violence into the one who should feel guilty. Maybe I'm too jaded right now from various things (too much of Something Awful's TG forum's grognards.txt thread where there's some really creepy rape fantasists posts posted), but I want video games (& video gamers) to prove they can handle other dark topics before they get near to touching a subject like rape.

@forkboy said:

Because video games writing is far from mature enough to handle something like this in a way that wouldn't trivialise something horrific.

So you would squash any attempts to change this?

@Video_Game_King said:

@forkboy said:

Because video games writing is far from mature enough to handle something like this in a way that wouldn't trivialise something horrific.

So you would squash any attempts to change this?

No, as I said in the post quite literally immediately before yours, I'd rather see video games & video gamers prove they can deal with other mature subjects before going near rape.

You know, like actually having relationships in games that don't feel like a teenagers fantasy would be a nice start.

@forkboy said:

I'd rather see video games & video gamers prove they can deal with other mature subjects before going near rape.

And perhaps such a game would be just the place to prove it?

@forkboy said:

You know, like actually having relationships in games that don't feel like a teenagers fantasy would be a nice start.

*activates highly predictable music*

if people cant handle seeing it in a video game then maybe those people really should think about what happens to people in real life. all the torture and rape and mutilation you see in games does happen in real life. its sad and disgusting but it happens. these people should focus thier efforts on the real life shit going on and stay out of the video game world.

@Brodehouse said:

@Animasta Absolutely, I think most of them are aware of it. Bad writing is just bad writing, no matter the subject. I'd rather have them try and fail then never try. Because they're more likely to get it right having failed in the past than having never done it at all. And I for damn sure won't say they're not allowed to talk about it. If I did I might as well move to Saudi Arabia and worship the big black cube thing.

the big black cube thing is pretty cool looking...

@Brodehouse said:

@forkboy I just think there's so much wrong with what's going on in that that I don't know where to start. Maybe I'll just focus on the end. Video games do not exist as a person or single entity that as such can be praised or detracted as being one. Their ability to 'prove themselves' is really outside of their control, being that they do not exist as an entity. With that said, I don't believe any specific game should be held under the duty to qualify the art form or the subject as valid of existing; a game merely has to qualify itself. Appeals to authority are beyond useless when it comes to art; they're like 3 year experience requirements on entry level jobs. I appreciate that you said "I just won't be interested". That's fine, I'm not interested in romantic VNs (unless they're sooper good) or off-road racing games, but I will never tolerate the idea that they can't make them or they 'shouldn't' make them. I think smoking bans in public spaces makes sense from a health issue; I think smoking bans in media is _thought control_. I do not appreciate being infantilized. Children don't even appreciate it. I will say though, you don't need to put quotation marks around men's rights. Men are human, and humans have rights nowadays. Hopefully equal ones depending on where you live.

"Mens rights" is written as "mens rights" because "mens rights" activists are fucking lunatics who don't live in the real world. Where are all these rights that women have that guys don't exactly? If you don't know what the "mens rights" movement is then I genuinely envy you, because it's creepy as fuck.

People who don't believe in mens rights are brainwashed morons. Equality for both is ideal.

Because video game writers use rape as a lazy crutch to make you care about a character rather than doing anything interesting with it. It's not impossible for rape to be handled well in a video game (and from what I remember I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream handles it decently, but it's been years since I saw that part of the game), but most video game writers are terrible and thus just use it as an obvious attempt to get you to sympathize with a character rather than exploring anything deeper about that traumatic experience and the way it affects and changes a person afterwards.

@forkboy said:

@Brodehouse said:

@forkboy I just think there's so much wrong with what's going on in that that I don't know where to start. Maybe I'll just focus on the end. Video games do not exist as a person or single entity that as such can be praised or detracted as being one. Their ability to 'prove themselves' is really outside of their control, being that they do not exist as an entity. With that said, I don't believe any specific game should be held under the duty to qualify the art form or the subject as valid of existing; a game merely has to qualify itself. Appeals to authority are beyond useless when it comes to art; they're like 3 year experience requirements on entry level jobs. I appreciate that you said "I just won't be interested". That's fine, I'm not interested in romantic VNs (unless they're sooper good) or off-road racing games, but I will never tolerate the idea that they can't make them or they 'shouldn't' make them. I think smoking bans in public spaces makes sense from a health issue; I think smoking bans in media is _thought control_. I do not appreciate being infantilized. Children don't even appreciate it. I will say though, you don't need to put quotation marks around men's rights. Men are human, and humans have rights nowadays. Hopefully equal ones depending on where you live.

"Mens rights" is written as "mens rights" because "mens rights" activists are fucking lunatics who don't live in the real world. Where are all these rights that women have that guys don't exactly? If you don't know what the "mens rights" movement is then I genuinely envy you, because it's creepy as fuck.

I know what the men's rights movement is. I'm not sure the real world is as equal as you'd hope. Though I don't doubt people on reddit are lunatics, there are absolutely things worth talking about as regards men. Being against men's rights is no different than being against women's rights.

edit: Though this really has FUCK ALL to do with the topic at hand. We shouldn't censor or tell game developers that they can't tell stories that involve rape. If they do it poorly, we can call them out. If they do well, we can enjoy their work.

@thabigred said:

I felt like Farcry 3 handled the gratuity as well as Tarantino does, and I'm a huge fan of Tarantino. I didn't understand why game critics were so quick to jump on it. Sure the ending doesn't make good on that introduction but the gratuity was not overboard to me. Much like a Tarantino film, the violence was tied to the comedy of the open world to me and they worked in tandem to make the experience overall better.

A lot of critics that shit on Farcry 3 for the rape scene are also ones I see praising Pulp Fiction, and to be honest the male rape scene was worse because they actually showed it. Tarantino was actively acting on the fears of his male audience of being raped to say the same message that Farcry was, and I find them both to be valid because you know what, rape is fucking brutal.

I was going to mention this as well, and how I found it kind of amusing that, as lack luster and eye-rolling as FC3's story was at parts, it actually brings it up in a way that lends to the narrative without beating it over the heads of the players.

And also to point out the automatic assumption most people are making that rape is generally something that happens between a man and a woman. I feel as if most people aren't really gasping the entire issue when they're removing themselves from the equation.

@tunaburn said:

if people cant handle seeing it in a video game then maybe those people really should think about what happens to people in real life. all the torture and rape and mutilation you see in games does happen in real life. its sad and disgusting but it happens. these people should focus thier efforts on the real life shit going on and stay out of the video game world.

That's not the issue though. Yes rape and torture happens in real life as well; the problem is often their depiction in the medium: torture, and violence in general, is often glamorized--it's made to look cool; Rape-as-drama is a hackneyed trope used either to lend "depth" to female characters, used as a plot device for male characters, or the threat of it to make females into "damsels in distress." Just because it's a video game doesn't make it any less of an issue.

As I've said countless of times: If we want games to be better, we have to expect it to be better. And if a game developer is going to create a game that contains such serious subjects like rape or torture, then I think they should give those topics the gravitas they deserve.

@Sweep: The Walking Dead is more or less a slightly interactive movie though. I guess if we're arguing why things like that can't be addressed in cutscenes,fine, but then I'd ask what role cutscenes should have, if any, in games going forward as they are pretty much never my favorite part of a game.

And I'd actually ask for clarification in that Sean Vanaman wrote much of The Walking Dead, so unless you are addressing something specifically in episode 4 that slipped my mind, credit where credit is due please.

I think video games are perfectly capable of tackling these subjects just as well as any other medium, I mean when I read Sword of Truth the main female character has to fight against rape practically every other chapter, and I'd say there are a lot of video games that are better written than that series, so it's not a matter of skill. The fact of the matter is video games are a riskier business than most, and it's smart to just avoid potentially offensive material so that you don't cut yourself off from potential consumers. Personally I think it would be totally fine for a game to explore these concepts, but I understand and accept why they don't.

Before you go praising Tarantino for his maturity and expert use of violence, may want to watch this interview. His refusal to answer or change his thoughts on the matter over a twenty year period says to me he really doesn't think through these things as much as I'd like him to.

I think game writers can totally use rape in their writing if they want. I think the fact that most of them avoid it is a testament to their good judgment. Rape just doesn't have a place in most stories. When you start to think about using rape as a device, you really have to ask yourself some hard questions. Is my story really equipped to properly deal with this violent act in a constructive and meaningful way, or am I just using rape as a shortcut to make players care about this female character? Is my story really ready to say something honest about the existence of violence in humanity, or is this just cheap motivation? If it's the former, go ahead and write the game like that and if you do it well I will praise you. If it's the latter, however, maybe think about establishing motivation in a better way that won't open a big old can of worms.

I just played Thirty Flights of Loving earlier today, and I was obviously super impressed by it. One of the countless great things it does is establish a connection to a female lead without having to have her raped. Food for thought.

And hey, I think we all could use some perspective here. Poor use of one thing or another doesn't make a work bad, and it certainly doesn't make the writer bad. It just makes them not-perfect, and I understand that a lot of gamers are used to looking at the world in black and white terms, but something being not-perfect doesn't automatically make it shitty. Here's an example from literature to show that I read books: in Henry James's novel Portrait of a Lady, he glosses over the death of the main character's infant child. At that moment, the veil is pulled back and it becomes clear that James is using that life event to show us the weakness of the main character's new marriage. It comes across as really tone-deaf, but Henry James is still one of the best writers to ever live, and Portrait is still a really good book. It just has one sort of problematic part.

@Kraznor said:

Before you go praising Tarantino for his maturity and expert use of violence, may want to watch this interview. His refusal to answer or change his thoughts on the matter over a twenty year period says to me he really doesn't think through these things as much as I'd like him to.

You've misunderstood the significance of that interview and I'd venture a guess that you've not seriously thought about Django Unchained. There's more to film than narrative. Think about how the final gunfight scene is filmed, and compare it to how the slave fight scene is filmed. Tarantino didn't want to answer that question because it's the same fucking question he's been answering since the amount of violence in Pulp Fiction was blown out of proportion as a result of some misguided mainstream anti-youth, anti-film political campaign.

nothing is taboo. yes rape is horrific, but that doesn't mean it can't be explored in a game.

i mean video games often deal with genocide, mass killings, slaughter of innocent people, ethnic cleansing, torture, executions, slavery, but rape is the big no-no? i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say genocide is alot worse than rape.

hell, even if they play off rape in a comedic fashion. tasteless? sure. but why not? theres no reason to have a kneejerk reaction to it.

you could do alot of things with rape. use it as an emotional consequence perhaps. in a crime drama game maybe give you a choice where you can either kill this criminal or ally with him. allying with him is super profitable, you get more money and such, but maybe he then ends up raping your characters sister or something. i dunno about you, but if done well that could be extremely emotional. imagine the amount of guilt you'd feel if you were indirectly responsible for someone getting raped. horrible right?

i still find it a bit hypocritical people are hyper-sensitive about anything to do with rape, but genocide? SURE! that ones ok! fuck off with that nonsense.

Silent Hill 2 has rape in it, and there's justification for it being there. The rapist (Pyramid Head) is a reflection of James Sunderland, the protagonist, and his sexual frustration.

@Kraznor said:

Before you go praising Tarantino for his maturity and expert use of violence, may want to watch this interview. His refusal to answer or change his thoughts on the matter over a twenty year period says to me he really doesn't think through these things as much as I'd like him to.

Hmm... that was... interesting.

@Legion_ said:

Silent Hill 2 has rape in it, and there's justification for it being there. The rapist (Pyramid Head) is a reflection of James Sunderland, the protagonist, and his sexual frustration.

And don't forget Angela's backstory and "Abstract Daddy":

@Wiseblood: Yeah... Silent Hill 2 is a messed up game. Quite surprising that it came out so long ago.

I suppose it's been said before, but there's a fine line between including rape/racism because "it's different," and including those for an actual purpose. Not a lot of creators in any medium can do this.

@ck1nd said:

Probably because rape doesn't have much of a place in video games. To visually put it on screen is disgusting and is a cheap way to conjure "emotion" in the player/viewer without using any form of subtlety. I immediately stop watching any movie with rape being preformed. I'd do the same for games.

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is a pretty fucking good movie.

@realph:

1995’s I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream, a point-and-click psychological horror adventure game. It’s premise, setting and theme are based upon the 1967 original short story by Harlan Ellison, and it was developed in collaboration with the author and a company called The Dreamers Guild. This is a grimly dark journey through fear and pain and guilt and brutally violent physical and mental torture.

http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/fattony12000/fatbomb-november-edition/30-97923/

@bvilleneuve: I'm curious where you stand on the way games handle violence given the list of cautions you give concerning approaching the topic of rape in a game. An extremely high percentage of games concern extremely violent actions that are not of a sexual nature, yet almost no justification is given in many of those cases. Murder is a more upsetting crime to me than rape as a life ends rather than traumatized, yet many games have reckless violence with little to no thought paid to what kind of message is being conveyed.

And I have indeed thought about Django Unchained a great deal since I saw it and I find it a strangely duplicitous film. Yes, Tarantino says in this interview that there are two types of violence in the movie, but that is kind of the problem for me. If violence is happening to an underdog, it is awful. If it is happening to a racist bigot, who cares? Violence isn't a good solution to problems, but it almost always is in the fantasy universe of Tarantino films. The last third of the movie is filled with the "cathartic" violence he talks about, but it also flies in the face of the unflinching violence seen earlier in the film that serves to ground it in a reality not often seen. Slavery was a miserable, cruel thing and the movie showcases that quite well, but then it still decides to end with a goofy, over-the-top action comedy segment. Kind of like how Spielberg will force a happy ending at times when it doesn't seem to fit (War of the Worlds springs to mind), Tarantino can't help but fall into the "Revenge film" pattern. I like this interview as it challenges stagnancy in opinions on the matter. Yes, Tarantino addressed similar concernes twenty years ago but not the exact same ones as this is a different film in a different time and a lot has changed since then that remains unacknowledged by Tarantino, and that bothers me. And calling some of his behavior here anything more than petty is apologetic to a fault. He treats this interview on a news show as an ad, or plug for his movie. He has no qualms selling it, but doesn't want to deal with people questioning its merits. Its flat-out embarassing, frankly, that he can't stand up to the barest hint of criticism on the subject.

@LikeaSsur said:

I suppose it's been said before, but there's a fine line between including rape/racism because "it's different," and including those for an actual purpose. Not a lot of creators in any medium can do this.

The "best" rape-ish scene that comes to mind for me is in the movie "The Devils Rejects"

While not a full on "rape" scene it goes very far to show the kind of character Otis is and does a damn fine job of making you feel uncomfortable watching.

or

Pulp Fiction because well..... Anal rape / a Gimp / a Sword / Bruce Willis

What a weird ass awesome combo......

Also as far as the question of "is it ok to show?" imo Yes.

Our world is one full of horrible evil things, Just because you are uncomfortable seeing them doesn't mean they don't exist,

While you don't want to see it, That doesn't mean nobody has a right to show it.

If you don't like it don't watch it. simple as that.

I don't understand why people want to force changes to other peoples work. If you don't like something you don't have to be involved in it.

Theres a million things anyone could say about this topic, but I'll just say that companies will never even want to tackle these kinds of topics as long as they get demonized for even bringing it up. Right now, people can't even deal with women being in games at all. If the woman is weak, they should be strong. If they're strong, they should be weak. If they're sexualized, they should be more normal. If they're too normal, they need to be more sexual. There's no winning because most of the people writing about games are largely uneducated and immature in many respects, and its always their way or the highway.

In about 20 years there will actually be parts of the media that know how to be real critics who talk about complex issues. Then companies both large and small will feel more comfortable with handling complex topics because it won't be a given that the media crucifies their game immediately because of it. Games are still very young. If you think about it, we are only now approaching 30 years of modern video games, and thats still extremely young. Especially when you consider just how complex video games are compared to all other forms of media. They take the aspects of all other forms, combine it into one, and then add an interactive element.

@Flacracker: That's one of the movies I turned off and walked away as soon as that shit happens. It's disgusting and does nothing for me.

@Kraznor

Violence is usually featured most heavily in the video games that pull from the entertainment branch of the medium. Most shooters, for instance, feature violence as something cartoonishly interesting and colorful to make players feel good when they press the button what shoots bullets. These aren't games that I enjoy playing, but I don't blame the developers for making them the way they do, other than sort of sighing and wishing that I could have it all. Rape is in a completely different class from other physical violence. I don't know if I can even imagine what a cartoonish depiction of rape would even look like. I'd venture a guess that it can't be done.

Tarantino isn't suggesting that the real world should operate like the world in his films. The thing I love about his movies is that they are so consistent in their vision of what the world would look like if it followed the rules of old Western, exploitation, gangster, crime, and kung-fu movies. Tarantino's mind was shaped by films, and it's wonderful to see so coherent a vision in mainstream cinema. I don't mean to condescend any more than is strictly necessary but you have utterly misinterpreted every single Tarantino movie in the most mundane way possible. Django Unchained isn't about how bad slavery was. If that's all it was about, it would be one heck of a boring movie. "Slavery is bad" isn't really something that needs to be argued. What Django Unchained is about is the universality and importance of stories, and the many forms of acting. The unflinching depictions of the brutality of slavery are given as a matter of course, because obviously slavery was a terrible, unjustifiable institution.

The interview was nothing more than an ad. Tarantino in that interview was pulling back the farce of the modern news and saying plainly what anybody who follows movies closely and critically already knows: The dance that he's expected to follow, where he says something controversial, the reporter is able to feel like an actual journalist for a moment despite contributing nothing of value, and both the news organization and the film benefit from further publicity, is really really dumb, and after twenty years, he's sick of it. It's not that it was a bad question at its core, it's that it was lazily asked. To call it "criticism" is intellectually dishonest and insulting to the actual criticism that's actually embracing Django Unchained as a masterpiece.

@bvilleneuve said:

@Kraznor

Violence is usually featured most heavily in the video games that pull from the entertainment branch of the medium. Most shooters, for instance, feature violence as something cartoonishly interesting and colorful to make players feel good when they press the button what shoots bullets. These aren't games that I enjoy playing, but I don't blame the developers for making them the way they do, other than sort of sighing and wishing that I could have it all. Rape is in a completely different class from other physical violence. I don't know if I can even imagine what a cartoonish depiction of rape would even look like. I'd venture a guess that it can't be done.

Rapelay/rapelay/61-16696/

No less evil and creepy but it is kinda cartoonish......

@Coombs said:

@bvilleneuve said:

@Kraznor

Violence is usually featured most heavily in the video games that pull from the entertainment branch of the medium. Most shooters, for instance, feature violence as something cartoonishly interesting and colorful to make players feel good when they press the button what shoots bullets. These aren't games that I enjoy playing, but I don't blame the developers for making them the way they do, other than sort of sighing and wishing that I could have it all. Rape is in a completely different class from other physical violence. I don't know if I can even imagine what a cartoonish depiction of rape would even look like. I'd venture a guess that it can't be done.

Rapelay/rapelay/61-16696/

No less evil and creepy but it is kinda cartoonish......

I wouldn't say that counts. It is a cartoon, but its depiction of rape is angled as arousing instead of cartoonish.

@ck1nd said:

@Flacracker: That's one of the movies I turned off and walked away as soon as that shit happens. It's disgusting and does nothing for me.

Wait, you have an intense reaction to it, then claim it does nothing for you? Seems like quite the opposite.

Anyway for me art is art, it is what it is, and it should remain uncompromised. Pure to the artist's wants, or the message of a given work is lost. Whether audiences will accept it is another thing, but it's also irrelevant to the creator of the work. All that matters is the artist's vision, it trumps all petty politics and social movements. Feminism should have as much bearing on a work as the artist wants and nothing more or less. If they need a depiction of rape to accomplish the artistic expression, then so be it.

@MikkaQ: I understand the point behind it, it's just not for me. I have a very strong opinion against it's use and that's my way of utilizing my "right" not to watch it. I wasn't affected by it happening in the movie; I was just disgusted in the over-saturated and visual use when a simple innuendo or fade-away would have served me the same purpose. Just mentioning that for clarification.

@bvilleneuve: Sigh, same story, different clothes. Tarantino takes a genre, slots in his dialogue and stylistic trappings and gets celebrated each time he does it. Yes, to fill 2 hours and 45 minutes of course there is a bit more going on than pointing at slavery as a problematic chapter in American history, but the other themes you touched on are hardly new for him either. Plenty of his dialogue over the years has centered around storytelling (usually cinematic, but given this predates cinema sitting around the campfire swapping German folktales substitutes). He is covering well-trod ground, albeit, very well in terms of performance and presentation. I still assert its still not especially edifying when all is said and done. Maybe there is some cultural differences playing a role in this film not resonating with me especially profoundly, but I think you may be overstating a pretty widely held opinion in regards to the genius of Mr. Tarantino.

And in regards to video-game violence getting a pass as it is generally over-the-top, I guess I'm just tired of it. Just tried playing "Sleeping Dogs" and found myself bothered at the thought of an undercover cop finding it justifiable to knife several two-bit thugs without batting an eye. Until game writers are prepared to take what they are implicitly saying with every such action in their games, I may just find myself on the opposite end of the critical spectrum for some time.

@ck1nd said:

@MikkaQ: I understand the point behind it, it's just not for me. I have a very strong opinion against it's use and that's my way of utilizing my "right" not to watch it. I wasn't affected by it happening in the movie; I was just disgusted in the over-saturated and visual use when a simple innuendo or fade-away would have served me the same purpose. Just mentioning that for clarification.

That is interesting then. I had the same reaction of turning the film off when it got to that scene, but precisely because it had such a deep effect on me. A year or more later when I mustered the strength to watch it again, even though I hated the scene, I understood how necessary it was in establishing her character and how she reacts, and the awful world she lives in. I think if they had cut around it, or just suggested it, it wouldn't have had nearly the same impact. Especially when she gets her revenge.

@Kraznor said:

And in regards to video-game violence getting a pass as it is generally over-the-top, I guess I'm just tired of it. Just tried playing "Sleeping Dogs" and found myself bothered at the thought of an undercover cop finding it justifiable to knife several two-bit thugs without batting an eye. Until game writers are prepared to take what they are implicitly saying with every such action in their games, I may just find myself on the opposite end of the critical spectrum for some time.

Yeah, hey, I tried Sleeping Dogs and found myself bothered at the idea that open-world games still haven't evolved substantially beyond a series of go-here-do-this quests with little markers telling me exactly where to go. The violence thing doesn't bother me because I just end up incorporating it into the characterization of my avatar, I guess. I end up playing a lot of open world games about heroes who only care about completing all of the objectives placed before them. I guess I would theoretically like for all game writers to take into account the possibilities for player behavior in the world, but at some point I just acknowledge that most games are thinly-veiled low-stress goal production engines and that narrative dissonance is totally shippable, and then it stops bothering me, and I just get to keep on playing my silly indie games.

Having rape be used in a game that is nothing more than a low-stress goal production engine feels more exploitative, and worse, it's entirely unnecessary for what the story needs to be in that type of game.

Why are you idiots talking about fucking men's rights in here?

For the topic at hand, nothing should be off limits when you're making art. The problem is finding a way to use it so that it makes sense and doesn't come off as shock value. It's certainly been in some games over the years and Tomb Raider definitely isn't the first game to deal with it but if there is an actual scene depicting her being raped, that may be a first, as far as I know.

Because my daughter was raped and video games are to blame.

@forkboy said:

Because video games writing is far from mature enough to handle something like this in a way that wouldn't trivialise something horrific.

You need to play more games, and I don't mean call of duty on your 360.

@Sweep said:

@forkboy said:

Because video games writing is far from mature enough to handle something like this in a way that wouldn't trivialise something horrific.

Gary Whitta seems to manage pretty well.

Really dude.... He MESSSED up that episode of the walking dead. Was worst of the bunch.