Giant Bombcast Giant Bomb Game of the Year 2010: Day Two

I don't get why the argument was mostly Vinny/Brad.  Why don't when these semi-stalemates happen Jeff and Ryan hop in and take a vote?  Why let it go on forever when clearly both sides only want their side?

Shadow Broker was the best Add-on and Minerva's Den was the best DLC.  Just by Definition, Shadow Broker added more meaningful stuff to the world of Mass Effect than Minerva's Den did to the World of Rapture.  I feel as though they just gave it to Minerva's Den just to move on.  But, I guess that's the way these things go.

You guys shouldn't have caved on Shadow Broker.  Also, totally smoked the sasquatch.

I don't like how they defaulted to Minerva but whatever it's not a bad add on.

i really don't like how they decided the best add on 
if this happen with the GOTY i will be mad

Brad's argument in that add-on segment was crazy and, like day one, completely contradictory. At one point he said, exactly "as an add-on, if you just took these two pieces of content.." That sentence is fucking crazy. Those are two completely opposing things. Brad kept completely dismissing any attempt on behalf of the other three to point back to the original games, when that is a factor when you're talking about which content adds on to the original games. It's not about taking the content at face value.
 
Listening to that hour-long segment was insane and headache-inducing because Brad's logic is so poor and childish and contradictory that no middle-school debate club newbie would be able to get away with it. As an example, just a few minutes after what I cited him saying above, Ryan goes on to point out that Shadow Broker is very good to him because it ties into the main ME2 story. Brad, dismissively, says that it's "not at all vital, it's a sidestory." What the hell is Minerva's Den, then? Brad apparently thinks that finding out how the turrets work in Rapture is more critical to the Bioshock universe than finding out Liara's history and taking down one of the most infamous people in the fiction is to the Mass Effect universe. It's just flat-out crazy.
 
I've played Minerva's Den and adored it. It's absolutely fantastic. But the fact is, this is the best add-on category. Minerva's Den, by Brad's own admission,  is so good because it has nothing to do with Bioshock 2. To me, that's an argument ender right there. It's not about the pieces of content individually completely removed from all context. These are add-ons, they're supposed to add something. Shadow Broker adds something that fills in the blanks of something that's teased to you during the main story and does it in an amazing way letting you play with one of the best characters from the original ME game. Minerva's Den is a sidestory that succeeds so well only in contrast to the disappointment of Bioshock 2.
 
I respect Brad's opinions, but Brad's opinions don't have the ability to change definitions and twist the meaning of the phrase "add-on." So it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of Brad contradicting himself and dismissing the very notion of "add-on content." I don't have to respect that when it's objectively wrong and he dismisses the confines of the category. Sorry, Brad lovers.
 
Also, as I said yesterday, Brad's arguments in these GOTY podcasts are only making me think his reviews are totally full of shit. In the podcast, Brad calls Mass Effect 2's combat in Shadow Broker "generic combat", "fine", "there are way better third person shooters out there", and when Jeff said "If you stripped then down to just the combat, I would play Mass Effect 2 any day." Brad's response was just a dismissive "meh."
 
Ryan also tries to pin Brad down later on by trying to get him to agree to the simple statement that Mass Effect 2 plays better than Bioshock 2. I really want to paste it all, because I think it's complete madness.
 
Ryan: But Mass Effect 2, it, it just plays better.
Brad: But not that much better.
Ryan: But it does.
Brad: It's not that much better. It's not the greatest shooter.
Ryan: But, no, we're not talking in hyperboles, it is better though.
Brad: A little bit. It is better, it is better, but not that much better.
Ryan: But it's better.
 
This is what Brad said on Mass Effect 2's combat in his review: 
http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-2/61-21590/reviews/
 

On the most-improved list, however, the combat sits right at the top. The basic movement, aiming, and shooting feel much tighter here, and I'll put them right up alongside any pure third-person shooter on the market. Honestly, I didn't know BioWare had it in them. But then, you've also got Mass Effect's list of extra combat components--wild biotic powers, ammo mods, tech hacks, and other special abilities--that add depth and variety above and beyond your garden-variety shooter. 
 
Like in the first game, you can still pause the action and dole out commands to your squad mates if you want. I was an unapologetic pauser last time around, but I almost never used that feature in this game, since you can now map a lot more of your and your allies' attacks directly to the controller buttons and D-pad, and you can also tell them where to move and what to attack. Thanks to the improved feel of the controls, the ability to pop off special abilities left and right at the touch of a button without interrupting the flow of the action, and a far more consistent and smoother frame rate, the combat here feels a hell of a lot faster-paced and more exciting than it did last time around. You may never want to pause it again, either. 

Can someone try explaining Brad's complete dismissal of Mass Effect 2's combat in this podcast to me in light of his review? Either his review is complete BS, or he was being a stubborn child in this podcast, totally unwilling to cede any ground whatsoever to the others even when he knew, deep down, that they were right.
 
To those who excuse Brad, how exactly to you defend this crap?
 
Jeff was right, they should've just ditched that entire category. It was completely insane to begin with, with half of them not playing what they were arguing over, but to just get tired of Brad and give the award to him when it's clearly 3 vs. 1, is insane, and rips any and all legitimacy away from the award. Especially since Brad childishly demands personal admissions from Ryan that Limbo is the best downloadable game, in exchange for not giving it the award officially, considering that's clearly the case here with Lair of the Shadow Broker. They are supposed to argue over things instead of just railroading all disagreement,  but at some point, you've just got to call a vote. I sincerely hope that they stop trying to tiptoe around Brad in future arguments.

" I don't get why the argument was mostly Vinny/Brad.  Why don't when these semi-stalemates happen Jeff and Ryan hop in and take a vote?  Why let it go on forever when clearly both sides only want their side? "

" Also...I don't like Jeffs "I don't like it" attitude. It's boring as hell. And i can't believe the others let him win with those comments. Debate Jeff, debate. "

brad is so fucking stupid. 
 
the whole bioshock thing was so painful to listen to. 
 jesus, talk about a 3 year old getting pissed for nothing. 
 
Also jeff, you are just so fucking terible aswell. what a pussy

" brad is so fucking stupid.  the whole bioshock thing was so painful to listen to.  jesus, talk about a 3 year old getting pissed for nothing.  Also jeff, you are just so fucking terible aswell. what a pussy "

I can confirm that you can totally shoot that sasquatch.

It's strange to listen to the arguments when they haven't played some of the games, but there isn't enough time for everything, so you make do.
 
I've to say though - why are people so on Brad? He made great points, especially considering it was 3 on 1 arguing and 2 of the 3 hadn't played Minerva's Den and everyone unanimously thought Mass Effect 2 was a better game. He fought an uphill battle because he obviously felt passionate that it was the better work. Why hate on him for that? 
 
And if you think Mass Effect 2 is one of the best games ever because of it's gameplay - you're drunk. The game is great in spite of it's controls and mechanics.

Can't say I say I agree with some of the arguments or choices, but that's what makes this whole enterprise interesting in the first place. 
 
I will say this, however:  I know no one can get to every title each year*, but I think that in the weeks that precede a GOTY discussion, more effort should be made to personally sample candidates that are up for likely discussion.   At least Brad crammed some night-before LotSB in preparation. 
 
* = Still, it's somewhat comforting that even the pros can't get through their backlogs, either.  ;^)

  EDIT - Where the fuck is Uncharted 2 in 'Best Looking Game'? "

Everybody is quick to blame Brad, but it's really an hour long "They're both good but I like this one better!" "Well I agree they're both good, I like this OTHER one better!" match between Vinny and Brad. 

Circular arguments... I just don't care anymore...

i remember snide once said that he only wants to use 1 rant per year.  so with that i'm going to use mine right now.
 
i generally think the duders put out good content and if something is a little weak... hey content/show business is not easy; you're gonna have ups and downs in content producing.
 
but the 1st hour of this was a FUCKING turn-off.  headache inducing as 1 commenter wrote.  i can even point the finger to myself as why didn't i just press stop.  i think it's bc i kept thinking there was going to be a reasonable conclusion to it.  nope.
 
so congratulations giant bomb i'm never going to listen to any end of year podcasts anymore now or future.  and i may just skip the day xx recap videos stuff and just stick to your finely produced guests Top 10 lists.
 
it's 12am and was hoping to use these podcasts to ease to sleep but not happening now which is probably stupid on my part.  debating does not equate to drowsiness.  leave that to C-SPAN.

What about God of War 3 for best looking, not even a mention?? D:

I'm proud of Brad. Standing strong through GOTY discussions.

"Circular arguments... I just don't care anymore... "

Brad, just concede already!!

BAD COMPANY 2 DESERVES BEST LOOKING GAME. GO PLAY THAT GAME YOU ASS HOLES.

I'm really happy that Brad is around to bring some voice of reason to these discussions (see Limbo argument for best debut), and proud that he sticks to his guns.  The add-on conversation took way too long and was just talking in circles.  
 
I never played Bioshock 2 and think ME2 is the GOTY, but aside from the actual boss fight, the shadow broker DLC was way over hyped and I though Overlord was better overall.  That's because an add-on is only named so because it is additional content for the game, and does not need to actually add-on to the story.  This was an argument that Ryan and Vinnie were making, but the counter argument to that is that you would need a third option, because by all accounts, Undead Nightmare adds nothing to Red Dead's story. 

"Minerva's Den, More like POOnerva's Den."
 
When Jeff said "POO" all loud into the speakers it blew out my right headphone speaker...literally.  I'm kind of pissed.

Just curious. Would Cave Story have been a potential candidate for Best Downloadable game? It's only on WiiWare and DSiWare for purchase. Of course the game was released previously (For free) on PC.

Geez Brad is a total pain in the ass in this podcast.  It was hard to listen to at points.

Oh wow. This gets really painful to listen to about 40 minutes in and stays really goddamn painful through the end of the add on discussion. Talk about going around in circles. Jeeesus. It's obvious that you guys deeply disagreed on what the hell that category is even about, which meant no productive discussion about its nominations was really even possible. More fool us for choosing to listen to it, obviously, but it was a little saddening to hear it hashed out that way.
 
In my opinion, the add-on content should be evaluated on its own merits as opposed to how well it integrates into the main content (if at all), because as several of you mentioned, the quality of the main experience shouldn't factor into the award. Sadly, I can't play Minerva's Den yet because they still haven't managed to put it out on PC (though they've promised to do so eventually), but I'm looking forward to playing it when I can.

I played Mass Effect 2 and loved it to death, played Bioshock 2 and thought it was okay, didnt play either DLC, and dont agree with Brad too often. That being said, I agreed with Brad and his argument. 
 
Also, I think Jeff likes VVVVV a little too much.

I like Undead Nightmare the way it is, I liked the taking-the-town shoot outs, they were hectic and made the world feel more alive and persistent to me. 

2nd podcast in a row I wanted to strangle Brad...

Quite a debate between Brad and Vinny on the Minerva's Den and Shadow Broker DLC. I haven't played either yet, but I'll be checking them out.

I think Vinnie and Brad needed an impartial mediator to move the argument along but Jeff and Ryan just threw in their cents-worth.  Good podcast though!  Nothing wrong with a bit of disagreement now and again. 

"Sounds like the first 3 to me"
"It sounds like Pacman, Super Meat Boy, and VVVVVV. Or maybe Joe Danger. Or maybe Dead Rising. Or maybe not Limbo..."
 
Jeff, you crack me up

Brad, you're wrong.  Best Addon should be adding on to the original experiencing, not being good in spite of the original experience.  Really dumb to argue for DLC you played instead of playing the real game.

I look forward to these podcasts every year and I love the debate.  
  
I really hope all the hate doesn't lead them to drastically change the format or stop doing them because I really enjoy hearing these guys talk and argue. In the end they are just opinions and if someone else's does not line up with yours then it's no biggie!   
 
However, It is good to see the community so passionate about games and I understand how infuriating it is to hear people talk ill of something you love, especially if they are ignorant to the full content. But in the end, these are arbitrary awards, they mean nothing, they change nothing as we all have our own hearts and minds... these are the Giantbomb EDITOR'S games of the year, not the galaxies.
 
 
Lets just chill out and enjoy the show...

It's crazy how Brad manages to win even when everyone else is against him. Just like last year when he alone loved Silent Hill: Shattered Memories and convinced the others and now from Shadow Broker being endorsed very strongly by Jeff, Vinny and Ryan somehow he changed everyone's mind.

I can understand making a case against FFXIII for graphic, but what about God of War 3?

My God that first hour was painful to listen to.  Just skip to 01:04:32.  It should be mandatory that more than two people play all the nominees.

The lengthy Best Add-On Debate was, in my opinion, one of the greatest Bombcast moments ever. Both Brad and Vinny put up compelling arguments and managed to have the debate for a good hour or so without anyone giving in. I thought it was fascinating to listen to.

Are you actually serious with the 65 minute argument of Shadow Broker vs Minerva's den? That was so dumb?! I have never in the history of ever been pissed off about anything during a Bombcast, including deliberations but that was just duuuuuuumb. I was losing my mind after 40 minutes but I didn't want to skip it incase I went too far and then I had to go back and then I'd go back too far and so on and so forth. Even though Vinny was pretty unbreaking too I think it was Brad's unwillingness to back down about ANY single point was the most frustrating part. He can be so stubborn sometimes.

Going back to this was so funny. Brad lost the argument but never backed down. In retrospect playing a piece of dlc without playing the main game is insane!

Sup people going back listening to old GOTY podcasts. Debates are good, I approve of them, but this is about who can religiously ramble for an hour or two in defense of their choice until the others get sick and tired and want to select a winner just because it's getting late and they've had enough and no longer want to deal. Send this podcast to a psychiatrist along with presidential candidate debates.

Ah yes, the debate that drained Brad of the energy to argue the rightful game of the year, Red Dead Redemption. Let it forever stand as a example that pacing yourself is important!

Seriously though, this stuff is funny and weird to come back to. The goty podcasts evolved over the years in some ways that reveal just how much the guys were winging it. And of course they did, it's giant bomb, it's what they do. The good part is, that some of this reductive quibbling got put away as the years went on. The format evolved for the better to, and it's still got a long way to go, but I do love this stuff... warts and all.