Happened to me last night, and I was pissed.
After getting 6pool rushed into banelings, he said GG after he killed my marines. I immediately left without saying anything. It just seems like you are kicking dirt in the face of the loser when they are on the ground. "Oh. good game! hahah!"
It probably didn't help because I just got out of a 45 minute match from hell. How the hell do you counter mass mutalisks as terran?! I made thors, but they they tore him up but they are so god damn slow. He just kept hitting other parts of my base from where my army was. He was able to hit my expansions and kill all my SCVs before my thors even made it have way. I tried some vikings, but I'd have to make so many to be able to counter him. All it would take after that is some zerglings to fuck me over if I Massed vikings.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty
Game » consists of 10 releases. Released Jul 27, 2010
The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.
GGing as the winner before the loser
When anyone masses up anything, at that point a few counter units won't do much at all, just because he'll be throwing out so much damage that it doesn't matter, what I'd suggest is more scouting,if a zerg player throws down a spire, a lot of the time, they'll get a bunch of mutas, it's not like the terran where you'll only throw down a starport sometimes for a few vikings and medvacs, so scouting and taking a look at what your opponents army is compromised of is a very good idea. If you are getting contained in your base, the first thing you want to do is break the containment to give yourself some room to move, tactics like madvac drops are good for this, or perhaps cloaked ghosts, all you want to do for the moment is get pressure off your base, so try doing some sneaky counters at that point.
I don't like the idea of gg'ing before the loser, but i have done it once or twice myself, only when I've beaten them and they just fly their base off, or hide an scv in the corner of the map just to be silly, in a legit game, I wouldn't say it first, does seem kind of egotistical.
Crazy part is I killed like 4 spires. Every time I would kill one and hope that I could launch an attack on an expansion, I would get there to find another spire and 30 mutas waiting for me. =\
Make some missile turrets. They're pretty ridiculous right now.
Just place a few in a position where they can hit mutalisks if they try to attack your mineral line. Shove the SCVs that he's focus firing into the Command Centre and repair the turrets if he decides to attack those. If you have another thor or two on top of that, it basically stops the mutalisks dead cold.
If you do decide to mass vikings, don't sit them in your base. Go kill off overlords when there's no fights going on. Force him to make hydralisks, or some other anti-air to stop his food from going into the red.
As for offensive GG'ing, it's terribly bm.
" Happened to me last night, and I was pissed. After getting 6pool rushed into banelings, he said GG after he killed my marines. I immediately left without saying anything. It just seems like you are kicking dirt in the face of the loser when they are on the ground. "Oh. good game! hahah!""This just screams "sore loser" to me.
I man, I could understand if he said "lol gg noob faggot i raped u rofl gb2 halo" or something, but seriously? :/
I don't think it's such a big deal who says "gg" first; just telling someone "good game" is supposed to be good sportsmanship. Since you have to go out of your way to do it, instead of just ignoring the opponent (which isn't bad sportsmanship, by the way), he's probably not being a major dick unless he says something else.
" Whoa. So you lost and instead of the winner saying rofl noob! He said GG and you're butt hurt over that? Christ... "He said it before the loser admitted defeat. I find that's in bad taste. If the winner is sure he won, it shouldn't take too much time for the loser to realize it, but by pushing the subject, all you're doing is aggravating someone who obviously is already not happy.
" Happened to me last night, and I was pissed. After getting 6pool rushed into banelings, he said GG after he killed my marines. I immediately left without saying anything. It just seems like you are kicking dirt in the face of the loser when they are on the ground. "Oh. good game! hahah!" It probably didn't help because I just got out of a 45 minute match from hell. How the hell do you counter mass mutalisks as terran?! I made thors, but they they tore him up but they are so god damn slow. He just kept hitting other parts of my base from where my army was. He was able to hit my expansions and kill all my SCVs before my thors even made it have way. I tried some vikings, but I'd have to make so many to be able to counter him. All it would take after that is some zerglings to fuck me over if I Massed vikings. "
You need to play it like the old bw mass muta builds. If he's making that many mutas he probably wont have gas for anything else, so he'll be doing nothing but expanding to secure more gas, and making drones/lings. What you need to do is just mass thors and either marines or hellions to take care of the lings. If you can afford the gas to add more factories then definitely get some hellions with preigniter, but you'll probably be low on gas, so just drop as many rax as you can and start macroing.
You have to realize that his entire strategy will be abusing the immobility of thors. He's just going to poke around at all of your bases to see if there are any weak spots to harass, and then when you eventually move out he will probably just counter your main and try to take out your production. You need to make lots and lots of turrets at all the important parts of your base, i.e. command centers and factories to protect against his backstab, or at the very least slow him down quite a bit and damage his mutas in the process, and then just go for the jugular.
Also, never making vikings to counter mutas. Ever. And you're right, offensive GGing is the biggest "fuck you" there is in starcraft.
" @Cataphract1014 said:@Erzs said:" Happened to me last night, and I was pissed. After getting 6pool rushed into banelings, he said GG after he killed my marines. I immediately left without saying anything. It just seems like you are kicking dirt in the face of the loser when they are on the ground. "Oh. good game! hahah!""This just screams "sore loser" to me. I man, I could understand if he said "lol gg noob faggot i raped u rofl gb2 halo" or something, but seriously? :/ "
" Whoa. So you lost and instead of the winner saying rofl noob! He said GG and you're butt hurt over that? Christ... "
You have no idea what you are talking about. They aren't saying GG to be polite, they are saying GG to tell you, "Get the fuck out of the game, it's over". It's a dick move because they are implying that the game is over before the other person decides that it is. If someone does this you have every right to go float buildings around the map or hide pylons.
@Semition said:
" Make some missile turrets. They're pretty ridiculous right now. Just place a few in a position where they can hit mutalisks if they try to attack your mineral line. Shove the SCVs that he's focus firing into the Command Centre and repair the turrets if he decides to attack those. If you have another thor or two on top of that, it basically stops the mutalisks dead cold. If you do decide to mass vikings, don't sit them in your base. Go kill off overlords when there's no fights going on. Force him to make hydralisks, or some other anti-air to stop his food from going into the red. As for offensive GG'ing, it's terribly bm. "That loading into the CC bit of advice is way too impractical to ever use. Also, the OP is talking about enough mutas to deal with thors, so probably 20-30 mutas. You'll need like 15-20 turrets at every point you wish to defend against that amount.
And never make vikings vs mutalisks. However if you do have vikings vs mutalisks, you need to use them by sitting them atop whatever other anti-air you have and abusing their range to tack on additional damage if the zerg tries to poke in and snipe something. Mutas' move speed is like 3.75 or something while vikings is 2.75, if you are out killing ovies with your vikings the mutalisks will chase you down while picking off just about every one of your vikings.
How the hell do you counter mass mutalisks as terran?!
2-3 ravens (seeker missile) and vikings (range and firepower) are your best bet against mass muta for me, lure them in with the vikings range, if they rush you, seeker missile. Have this with a combo of bioball + medivacs and it shouldnt be hard to start pressing map control against macro zerg.
2-3 ravens (seeker missile) and vikings (range and firepower) are your best bet against mass muta for me, lure them in with the vikings range, if they rush you, seeker missile. Have this with a combo of bioball + medivacs and it shouldnt be hard to start pressing map control against macro zerg. "A good Zerg player will easily be able to evade the missle from Ravens, don't waste your gas on that and mutalisks are actually quite good against vikings unless you have tons of them.
Thors are a much better response, and the small air splash that Thors have will really devastate a mutalisk massing player.
The real story here is that unless you are going for massive amounts of almost exclusively marines, bio-balls as Terran against Zerg is a bad idea. Medivacs will get sniped and small numbers of marines will just die to mutalisks. You are much safer with Hellions, Tanks and Thors.
I equate saying GG as the winner before the person admits defeat like a sports team that is crushing the other team taking out their starters for the backups. It is insulting to the other team.
Sure you can say, "We'll you shouldn't suck so much." But if the player is better than you, or if you just make a mistake you should be the one to say, "Yeah, I've lost."
Losing doesn't upset me too much, although getting 6pooled is super gay, but the winner basically rubbing it your face is what annoys me. It's like spawn camping in a shooter. It is bad manners.
Anyway, more to the point of the mass mutalisks. We had both mined out our mains and naturals when we started to go for the other expansions. I hit his at gold with a quick marine drop and ran like a little girl, and we traded back and forth. And honestly what I should have done at the end was just sit my whole army on my last expansion and just defend it. I had some turrets up in my base, but not enough to hold off the 30 mutas he had at any given time. He tried to get zerglings at one point and I made a ton of hellions with the blue flame upgrade and 3 weapon upgrades and absolutely decimated them. I pushed into his main after that and killed nearly everything, but once again he pulled mutas out of no where after I killed 2 spires, and finished off my army.
He seemed to have a spire at every expo
Turrets make mutas useless.
Then just go do a few thor drops and wreck his economy.
And perhaps even Battlecruisers? I don't know how they fair vs. mutas.
GGing as the winner before the loser is bad form and generally classless. I don't think I'd agree with the sports analogy because in sports there is a significant risk of injury, so resting the starters near the end of a blowout is just smart, not bad sportmanship - but that's beside the point.
As for the mass muta question, the best counter for mass anything is to scout enough that you know what he's amassing so you can build up an effective counter force before he actually has a mass force. This is especially important against Zerg, as you'll never be able to outrace them. If you're not prepared for their masses and try to build a counter as their attacking you, it's already too late.
The other strategy is to keep harassing them to prevent them from being able to build up a big force. However, since you play Terran and probably prefer to play more defensive, your best strategy is to scout as much as possible, build an effective counter for what they're doing, wait for them to attack, wipe out their force, then swoop in with your own.
I haven't really dug into SC2 multi yet but if it's anything like SC1, towers chew up Mutas.
But again, scout as much as possible. Knowledge is power.
This is making me picture this sort of thing playing out at an RTS LAN party or something. That'd be hilarious.
I had this happen to me once when a guy rolled into my base with a decent MM force. He GGed me after taking out my measly few Zealots and Stalkers but must not have noticed the swoosh swoosh of DTs cutting through his forces. He took out two Pylons and a Gateway before his last guy was put down. Of course at this point my Warp Prism was spinning behind his mineral line and I had Chronoboosted my other three Gateways down to warp in another set of DTs. As I began to gleefully slice through his SCVs I said, "GG :D" and he ragequit.
It was the best beta ever.
Generally speaking, as other people have mentioned, any time a player masses just one of any unit it can be pretty easily countered. In the case of mass Mutas, making Turrets to cover your base is the best idea for defense, along with perhaps leaving a Thor or two back for defense. You'll want to have the Turrets overlap each other in range a little bit, so even if they snipe off one they'll be taking additional hits plus they won't have free reign in that area of your base while you try to lumber back there with your army.
The other thing is that Thor is indeed the correct unit to be producing against Mutalisks. While they are a counter though, be wary of the mindset of them being a "hard counter", as enough Mutalisks with still kill your Thors even with their superior anti-air splash attack. You need to have a bunch of Thors, along with an ample amount of Marines supporting them, and you should have no issues with Mutalisks. Naked Thors (aka Thors by themselves) are far too vulnerable vs Mutalisks by themselves.
That's really just a general idea though, and without more information about what was happening during the game it's hard to say what you could've or should've done.
I know what I did wrong in the game. He was afraid to directly attack my thors with his Mutas. He started to make some infestors for neural parasite, but whenever I would push an expo he would just abandon it. I should have been more aggressive, and when I mined out my natural and main I should have just dumped my whole army on my expo that was mining.
One time i was Dueling a guy in wow and it was very close and i lost so i typed GD for God Damnit, but the guy thought i meant "Good duel".
Fair enough. Again, I don't know enough about the game to say anything with absolute certainty, so I'll agree with your assessment. Perhaps more aggressive harassment or something to keep him off balance. When Zerg reaches late game and takes like 4 or 5 bases, they're incredibly hard to stop. I think I've lost a game or two that way, and it's only that few because I often try not to let it go that long (whether I win or lose because of that is another story though =p).
As for the topic title, which I seem to have conveniently "ignored" in my first post, I never GG before the other guy when I will clearly come out victorious in the game, simply for the "being seen as a dick" factor. I've run into one or two guys who have done it to me, but for one of them the game was clearly over at that point so I didn't see it as being that big a deal. I have, on occasion, ragequit out of a game before (no 'gg') because I felt it wasn't a good game, whether it be cheese on the opponent's part or because I just played like crap.
What the hell, I'll post the replay, but beware it is a long one! Over an hour =\
It was a good game, but I was still pissed off and I took it out on my poor trash can.
Replay!
" What the hell, I'll post the replay, but beware it is a long one! Over an hour =\Poor, defenseless little trash can. =/
It was a good game, but I was still pissed off and I took it out on my poor trash can.
Replay! "
But yeah, definitely far too passive as you said. You let him have two bases uncontested for the longest time without moving out, and he basically mined out the gold before you did your drop, which was why he abandoned it. Thors are awesome units, but being as that they're HUGE, they get surrounded by Zerglings way too easily. Based on his unit composition you should've gotten Hellions much earlier to take care of the Zerglings, as well as for harassing and map control (he had Spine Crawlers at his main, but his natural was completely undefended for much of the early game!). And since he went Mutaling with some Infestors later on, your unit comp should've ideally been Marine/Hellion/Thor with some Medivacs to support, you really didn't need to get Marauders at all as they suck against lings and you had Thors to take care of the Spine Crawlers anyways.
And there were a good few times where you probably could've ended the game, or at least done some "terrible, terrible damage" if you had just pushed instead of pulling back, or was more active with the scouting. At around the 30 minute mark when you pushed and kill his fourth expo after doing the drop at the gold, you had a fair chance of winning if you just pulled your entire army and pushed his natural. As well when you killed your rocks and moved your Hellions in, you pulled back instead of pushing your lead. And when your Thors got NP'd, instead of retreating you probably could have just roasted the Infestors with your Hellions and you would've been fine.
I'm sorry if I seem "high and mighty" with these statements, as I was not you playing there in the moment, and things are a lot easier to tell in hindsght. I'm also probably far better at analysis than actual playing. ;p I would say the major things to work on based on this game is to be more aggressive with harassing and pushing (though don't go overboard!), be more active with scouting, and to make more unit producing structures once you get beyond one base (your macro started slipping when you decided to expand, but it was great up until then, far better than the Zerg's). The game was yours in my opinion, the Zerg just won through dumb luck and attrition.
I'll take all the advice I can get! I don't view it as high and mighty at all. I'm just a noob that just got promoted to gold.
Also, OMG BRAD REPLIED TO MY THREAD
However, is winner gging better or worse than the loser not gging?
Also, for the mass Mutas try sticking just one or two Thors in your base. Splash + damage vs light lets them clean up mutas in just a couple salvos, and huge range lets them cover the entire mineral line without moving.
Edit: Never mind, you did Thors. Actaully, the anti-muta play looked pretty decent to me all around. One suggestion I'd make for backing up the Thors is adding in 3-4 uncloacked ghosts, so they can EMP/Snipe infestors and help deal some quick single-target damage to complement the Thors slower splash damage against the Mutas.
I don't get too upset if the loser doesn't GG. In the heat of the moment if you are angry at your loss you can forget, but I feel like a preemptive GG from the winner is planned and he is saying, "I've won regardless if you think so or not."
" @Cataphract1014 said:General rule of thumb is to never land vikings. Especially if the zerg has air." All it would take after that is some zerglings to fuck me over if I Massed vikings. "You... you do know Vikings can land, right? And that they have a ground-to-ground attack once they do? "
As far as BM GGing goes, it's a dick move. Just take comfort knowing that the idiot zerg 6pooling his way into diamond is probably going to quit when he loses game after game.
A protoss player void ray rushed me and said "GG" when he entered my base, declaring himself the winner. But I held it off, and pulled out the sweet, sweet win. The guy even said I was a lucky noob. What a scrub. And I'm a zerg player so it was especially challenging to stop it.
So yes, GGing to say that you win is BM. But saying it and then still losing means you are a terrible, terrible player.
" @Cataphract1014 said:And have them take damage from the Mutas and zerglings? Massing Vikings is never a good idea." All it would take after that is some zerglings to fuck me over if I Massed vikings. "You... you do know Vikings can land, right? And that they have a ground-to-ground attack once they do? "
" @Fish_Face_McGee: Ah I need to put my glasses on! Either way, if that happens just use it as fuel to try harder and then give yourself the ultimate satisfaction of saying GG as you take the win from the guy. Turn that frown upside down! "Doesn't make you sound any smarter considering you didn't read the first post, apparently.
@SJSchmidt93 said:
" Turrets make mutas useless. Then just go do a few thor drops and wreck his economy. And perhaps even Battlecruisers? I don't know how they fair vs. mutas. "3 turrets do not make 15 mutas useless, especially is the Zerg player is smart with them. Battlecruisers are only good as sponge units supporting a larger assault, two battlecruisers will be dominated by 8-10 mutas, having marines and a really proactive attack going to keep them off your mineral line are your best bet. ]
On the note of the original topic, if the other player simply won't leave when the game is decidedly won, I'll ask why he hasn't GG'd yet. It's not all about snark, it's also polite to admit you've lost.
I had a Protoss player do the whole "I am going to put lots of photon cannons in your base"-thing. I responded by lifting all my buildings off and placed them elsewhere. Then he told me to give up, because I "had lost". That just made me even eager to beat his ass. A while (and another try of the aforementioned strategy) later he said something like "plz give up imma gonna get an achievemtz". I started builing marines, but suddenly he quit. In the statistics after the game, I realised he hadn't made a single unit, just pylons and cannons.
I always wait for the other guy to GG, but then he leaves so quickly that I can never actually say GG back :C
I think you're over reacting. Even if he was trying to insult you, why let him have so much power over you? Next time try asking him what counters mutalisks in a polite and friendly way, maybe he'll tell you... if he gives you some jerk reply then you know he probably was being a dick with the gg stuff but even if he was, don't let him have any power over you... he's just trying to drag you down to his level.
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