I can understand morally justification for Joel's actions, but it's really crazy reading things like "I made a point of burning each and every doctor to death while laughing" or "I beat the shit out of them one-by-one, it was great".

@lackingsaint: People who write something like that for public reading are sick in the head, joking or otherwise. I'm still baffled why there wasn't some non-lethal option for the surgery room scene. The melee attack for the head surgeon leads to a gruesome finisher when it could have easily disabled him. This was completely unneeded and illogical. I can't imagine there's many brain surgeons left in the world, probably best not to kill the last one.

@cexantus: I won't justify Joel's lie, but I understand it, not as a character protecting his surrogate daughter, but because I think Joel is a selfish person. Its why he kills Marlene, he could have easily let Ellie's surrogate mother live, but he kills her.

@cexantus

I'm not trying to justify Joel's lie but for some reason he made the same decision I would have done as well, that's why the ending didn't really surprise me.

And while I kinda agree with the relationship thing, in the TLOU:AD it kinda looks like Ellie is looking for a father figure, it isn't 100% clear though.

@djou

Actually, considering he wants Ellie to never find out about it and not the fireflies come after them, it was the most reasonable choice to finish Marlene off.

I shot the surgeon in the leg. Sure, it still triggered what looked like a death animation (which kinda broke immersion), but it was out of my hands at that point..

: @lackingsaint: I think that speaks to a failing on the games part: it really doesn't differentiate between the levels of violence that occurs in the game. The Winter segment is clearly meant as a sort of commentary between the actions made by Joel and Ellie at this point, but it's kinda hard to take any of it seriously when I just got through mowing down a couple of nameless thugs or gutting them in the stomach. So to those people, killing those doctors was no different than putting down a bandit or clicker.

@raineko: the reasonable choice? Maybe. Does it make it any less messed up? Not really. Joel kills Marlene for a very selfish reason, and ultimately damns humanity just so he doesn't have to lose another daughter.

But I keep going back to Ellie--is this really what she wanted. During the Spring segment she gives Joel a monologue about that dream that she has: She's on a plane that is currently going down; she races to the controls only to discover she doesn't know how to fly the plane--death is inevitable. I feel like that's supposed to be a metaphor for the entirety of the human race. No matter what we do, we're all doomed to die anyways. But there was an option, a choice that could have been made to save the world--and Joel decides to take that choice away from her.

If we are all gonna die anyway what's the point of saving the world?

I interpreted the dream differently. For me it is nothing that is supposed to point at the ending but rather tells something about what Ellie is thinking at that moment. She sees mankind going towards the end and she (because she thinks she might be able to cure everyone) thinks she has to save them, that's why she tries to get the plane flying again but can't do it and everyone dies. For me that sounds like she doubts if she is able to save everyone.

And if you look at the reality, more than 50% of mankind is dead already and what is left is for the most part really not worth saving. So yeah.

I don't go along with the people who say hard and fast that the surgeons actually did think they could make a cure by taking apart Ellie. The only person who says that is Marlene and she appears to be overexcited because of how proud she is the she found Ellie in the first place.

And when it comes to the recordings, I do interpret as they found other anomalous people before Ellie. They didn't just take 12 people apart at random. Maybe Ellie is different, I dunno, but either way there have been others who they researched and you can expect they thought those would provide breakthroughs too. And they didn't.

Finally, remember what Joel says about the survivor's guilt. Sure, it is a direct message to Ellie, but it's also about the Fireflies. Remember the recording in Colorado. The guy there says that everything is a failure and it's hopeless, but you can find those who still carry on in Salt Lake City. As Joel says, you always find something to continue to believe in. These Fireflies in SLC have convinced themselves that they can find a cure. Marlene sure as heck has. But another interpretation is that all hope actually is really lost and these people just continue to go through the motions because that is what has sustained them so far. Tommy, the optimist in this game is no longer with the Fireflies. Seems like the message is they aren't the answer here.

Now, to move past that, as I played the game, it became abundantly clear that the problem isn't just the Cordyceps fungus. Man has turned against man. The big "boss fight" in the game (in the restaurant) isn't even against infected. The current situation could be sustained with outposts and perimeters. There's no lack of food growing space in these areas. The problem is that humans can defeat perimeters and apparently they do. Humans want your stuff, your food, your body and instead of banding together, they squabble and make things far worse.

The only way what Ellie has even matters at the end is when you look down on Tommy's town, all that can be wiped out by an infection at any time without what Ellie has. With what she has, maybe it can't be. The twist part is that even without a cure, the "fix" for infection is to kill the person. Tommy's town can be saved from a bite by simply killing the person right then and there (the Tess solution I guess). What Ellie has amounts to only a small refinement on this.

So I concluded the real problem anymore isn't the infected. It's that the world has gone to hell in a handbasket. And killing Ellie isn't going to improve upon that.

I almost didn't finish the game. The scene after the giraffes is heartbreaking. You see this beauty and a world that is making a bit of sense and then Joel says "we don't have to go in there". Then you go in there and there are more infected than ever. I took a break from the game for 2 days, I had given up hope. Another infiltration and when you get inside, there's going to be nothing again. But I eventually persevered (mostly because I want to loan the game to a friend), I guess it turns out they were using infected as security, much like Bill.

It is interesting how the last 30 minutes of the game encapsulate everything you've done in the game. A bit of stealth, a bit of pallet rafts, a bit of ladders and planks, some boosting up and the for most of us some shooting.

I mean we all know what this ending is leading up to. In Last of Us 2 the population of the world inevitably declines and it's up to Joel, Ellie, the player and a robust hot coffee gameplay mechanic to repopulate the Earth back to it's former glory.

I thought it might have been foreshadowing Joel's death as between the two of them he is the "pilot". It definitely relates to a feeling loss of control and maybe lack of confidence on Ellie's part. And also relates to her fear of being alone as when she's in charge of herself, her own destiny, own "flightpath" as it were, she only envisions doom.

"The only person who says that is Marlene and she appears to be overexcited because of how proud she is the she found Ellie in the first place."

This is what I mean where it really feels like people are trying hard to justify that lie. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that 90% of the game takes place entirely from Joel's point of view. Suddenly Marlene is made out to be this shrewd character hell bent on killing a child for the sole purpose of feeding her ego. Is that really presented in-game? I don't think so. It's clear there's a relationship between Marlene and Ellie (presumably before she realized that Ellie was immune) and even Marlene calls Joel out on his

shit--he isn't the only one who'd suffer should Ellie die.

I think the problem here is that we have no idea what happened to Ellie between the moments Joel is knocked out and when he wakes up at the base. Did Marlene simply force Ellie onto that operating table? Did she lie to her and tell her that that she'll be alright once the operation is over. I don't know, but I'm not certain that Marlene would do that, and I believe that Ellie knew very well that she would never wake up from that table; and that's why she tells Joel that story at the end of the game--she'll always be the last to die. We could make all the ifs and buts want, but it doesn't change the fact that Joel took away that choice and decided base their entire relationship going forward on a lie. I don't think Joel is wrong because he damned humanity; I think he's wrong because he's decided to place Ellie in a position where she no longer has any power, and that the only way to make the relationship work is to believe in that lie, which is pretty damning itself.

The relationship would have been over if she were dead anyway.

So preserving the relationship isn't necessarily the most important thing. Ellie isn't powerless. She can leave. She can still go to the Fireflies. Or heck, she can go to the military. It's weird in this game how it's presumed the military cannot be of help. You don't think they have scientists and doctors too?

Ellie still has ways to help, she can always go back. She's choosing to stay with Joel, and maybe she's choosing correctly.

I don't think Joel is saving her because he wants to deny humanity salvation. He's doing it because he suspects she isn't actually humanity's salvation and he doesn't see killing Ellie for no reason. Or maybe he thinks someone elsewhere is going to save humanity.

Interesting point about what they told Ellie before putting her under. If they told her she would survive, I think she'd have mentioned it to Joel at the end. That she would tell Joel that he didn't save her from anything because she was going to make it through anyway.

I'm sticking with my answer anyway. The problem isn't the infected, it's the humans. The humans are killing each other over resources. Take away the infected and there's not a lot of reason that is going to change.

"So preserving the relationship isn't necessarily the most important thing."

Not to be a dick, but how can you say that when the relationship serves as the basis for the entire game? It's the sole reason why Joel does what he does and it's the reason why Ellie chooses to stay. Saying that it isn't important is beyond ridiculous.

Just saying "she can go back" misses the point of her character arc throughout the game.

I respect other's opinions that they liked the ending. It was a fitting end. I am not Joel and this is Naughty Dog's story. But from the minute Joel got all mouthy with Marlene in the hospital, I didn't want to play anymore. All he has to do is argue with her and then say "Well at least let me say my goodbyes". Instead he gunned down a whole army of fireflies. It wasn't just him though, it was me. I had to do that and I didn't want to do that. Maybe we have just been given too much choice in games recently, Maybe it was the realistic nature of the gameplay, but I didn't want to kill a bunch of innocent dudes, and destroy the future of the human race, just to spend more time with Ellie.That's not how I wanted that to end.

It was just so disconnecting. I decided many other things in the game. I stealthed through many sections. Unless they were fungus monsters, I didn't want to kill anybody if I didn't have to. There were so many evil lives that I spared. It was just incredibly unsettling when I had to kill a bunch of innocent fireflies, to do something I didn't feel like doing.

@shakeyhands said:

I'm happy you had this reaction - and even happier if you ended up hating the ending because of these reasons. That's kindof the point of the whole thing. That is what ND was saying with this game and its ending.

You didn't have a choice because there was no choice in Joel's mind. Take it or leave it - and you certainly aren't alone, the ending focus tested TERRIBLY.

It was ND's decision to make a story and ending that would piss off so many people that propelled this game to near the top of my favourite games of all time list.

I thought the ending was great, and the overall story felt like I was reading a novel with how it was structured and delivered.

I'm stealing this from Adam Sessler, but at the end, Joel becomes the most likable villain of any videogame. At the end of that game he becomes a selfish asshole, who is only thinking of his needs. Joel loves Ellie because he loves the person he becomes when she is with him. He finally has someone to open up to, something to protect, to live and to die for. After living 20 years without that, I totally understand why he did the things he did.

That said, I personally would not have chosen that ending. I thought the choice was ultimately Ellie's and if she was willing to sacrifice herself for the human race, she should be able to. The fact that Joel took that away from her was a dick move (but, again, understandable). I think Naughty Dog deserves a lot of credit for realizing that they had to choose the ending Joel would have chosen.

Ellie is the embodiment of hope for most of the characters of the game, but for different reasons. For Joel, David and Marlene, they are all willing to do whatever it fucking takes to have her, and what she represents. Joel was just the one who came out on top.

P.S. - Is it weird that I already thought out The Last of Us 2? Check it:

It's like 5 years later (or late enough where Ellie has become a grown woman), and Joel and Ellie live with Tommy at the dam. Joel becomes fatally wounded and before he dies, tells Ellie the truth about what happened at the hospital. Ellie, now furious at Joel for his actions, decides she must leave the dam and continue her perceived obligation to help find a cure.

In the attempt to find Fireflies, she comes across a male Firefly who is around her age, and he accompanies her on her quest. During their journey, they fall in love, she gets pregnant and she must now choose if she is also willing to sacrifice her child.

As I typed it out, it seems very similar to the story before, but 'eh, it's what came to mind.

I dont understand why people are so down on joel for wanting to save ellie. he at one point was going to leave her to tommy, who knows what he would of done. but after hearing her sob story decides to see her to the end. then finding out they where going to kill her he decides to protect her, again, at any cost. and his lie is him protecting her from her self. she is just a kid, and should not be put in a situation like that. she needed a protector and thats what she got. at any rate he killed the leader of the fireflies and they where basically doing a last stand anyways. they where done by that point, they where done before they evacuated the science lab at the college. pretty much the head scientists either got infected, some by the monkeys they where testing, and others by suicide and where all dead anyways. all that was left was what? a rag tag platoon and a few docs. with a disillusioned leader.

I do wish developers would stop throwing story into the same pile of things focus-testers can motivate them to change. A lot of people tend to miss when a writer actually WANTS the audience to feel negative emotions; at a point, game stories will never have good characters die because "it made the focus tester feel bad and less motivated".

Joel is obviously selfish in his decision making but I also felt that by the end of the game...do we really deserve to be saved? Do we deserve to get cured and then fuck up the planet again? While playing the ending I just kept getting the feeling that the world is at peace with itself, the humans are brought back to the food chain and don't have complete control. That is what made the giraffe sequence so engaging and hopeful. I sided with Joel that it isn't worth another person's life (especially Ellie) if a cure isn't guaranteed. Joel made a selfish decision but he quite possibly "saved" the planet.

Other thoughts on the game is that it was way, way to long. I really got sick of the combat by the middle of the game and got very annoyed with enemies only appearing when a combat situation can occur, they should automatically populate the map so I have a reason to sneak around. Minor point but got to me when a creature would jump me around a corner when 5 seconds earlier I used the sonar/hearing ability to make sure I'm ok to go.

Along with the game being way to long, I thought the majority of it was very predictable. Besides the ending which "redeemed" the game for me in some ways, most major plot points I either called or just wasn't surprised/shocked/engaged anymore. Who didn't see cannibals coming up at some point? Of course one of the brothers was going to get infected. It felt like a way better version of the Walking Dead from last year with fun combat up until a certain point, better characters and story.

I've also, for right and wrong reasons, compared TLoU and Bio Infinite together and I just thought Infinite did everything better and just spoke to me in a way the TLoU could have spoken to me last year when it was supposed to come out(?). I enjoyed the combat, story, character motivation in Bio more than I did and TLoU and that is probably largely attributed to the fact that I'm kinda sick of apocalyptic, zombie infested, depressing worlds. It is a fantastic game and I don't disagree with the praise it has received but TLoU just didn't hit a lot of triggers for me to sell me on it being the best game this year, this gen, ever.

Just some thoughts, sorry for rambling

Funny that you think that, because I felt completely the opposite. I murdered everyone in the hospital and was happy when I got Ellie out of there. Eventually when Ellie commanded Joel to swear I knew exactly he would do it, and I'm pretty sure I would have done the same.

Late to the party, but damn... Joel was right the first time, he should have left Ellie with Tommy and went on his way, maybe then the human race would have had a chance to end their nightmare...

Finally bought a PS3 just to play this game. I loved the ending. I also felt a common bond with Joel. I think my age "48" and having just lost my wife of twenty years last May played a major roll in how I felt about Joel.

As for saving Ellie, well, once it was obvious that the doctor was not going to let me get her, I blasted his face with a shotgun. You damn right I'm an animal lady, now give me Ellie back.

I never liked the Fireflies, didn't trust them. The hospital was barren of any patients except for Ellie. That dead dude from Salt Lake City knew the shit wasn't going to work. Whatever, my mind was made up before that.

I do think Naughty Dog has left the door wide open for The Last of Us 2.

I'm a little surprised at the overwhelmingly negative response to David's character. I mean, I get the "he was mean to a protagonist!" and "he got handsy with a girl under the age of 16" outrage, but ask yourselves what you would have done in his situation. This lady and her buddy are personally responsibly for killing dozens of your friends and colleagues, she has stubbornly refused your help repeatedly, and most recently has infected you with incurable zombification and stabbed you thrice. If I'm being honest, I might have acted very similarly. I would want revenge and have nothing to lose.

Anyway, its worth thinking about.

I hated the ending. Killing off one of the best hopes to find a vaccine and a cure for the disease, because Joel didn't want to part with Ellie, is wrong in so many levels! Mankind will continue to dwindle, suffer and turn into abominations, Ellie will continue living without a purpose, carrying the stigma of having immunity when no one else has, some of the last specialized doctors were killed in a murderous rampage, Joel lied to Ellie...

Ending up in the powerplant even if it's not a bad situation for the characters, just feels depressing. Joel's decides to hide and forget about the world, living his version of a family life, while perpetuating a reality of fear, despair and death. All while humanity slowly becomes extinct. Good going Joel!

I thought the ending was fine. Ellie probably isn't the only one who's immune anyway. Let someone else be the bastard who has to tell their kid they have to die for the greater good.
Joel wasn't me, anyway.

"because Joel didn't want to part with Ellie"

It wasn't just because Joel didn't want to part with Ellie. Ellie wasn't given a choice. I guess it's clear enough what choice she would have made, but she wasn't given the choice and the Fireflies were intent on taking what wasn't theirs, no matter who they hurt in the process. They had no idea whether Ellie's death would actually benefit humanity or not, and even if they did know, did they have the right decide to murder her in name of hope?

And Joel wasn't exactly stable. His daughter was murdered by people that he thought would protect her, so Joel put her in front of them, and they decided the best way to protect themselves was to kill Joel and his daughter on a whim in the name of preserving their own hope. He met Ellie and slowly regained some of his humanity. And now it's a bad ending if he doesn't want to do the same thing again, delivering another girl to her death at the hands of those who were supposed to help, all on a wing and a prayer that if he let them kill Ellie in her sleep they might find something useful? Joel risked his ass all across the country for humanity, but what he found in Salt Lake was not humanity. The Fireflies were glorified cannibals.

Who owns your life? Can I kill you to benefit me? How about for two people? Five? Five Million? What's the magic number where I get to take your life? And if the answer is a hope and a prayer for all humanity, is humanity just bipedals with opposable thumbs, or is there something more to it?

Wait, who said the ending of The Road was happy but bittersweet? It's totally ambiguous ... it's end with blind faith that could swing either way. I'm trying not to spoil things here, but man that ending I felt could be seen as a devastating mistake or a chance worth taking.

Also I know the writers of the game tried to make it clear the surgery was the only solution, but when has science that experimental been 100% accurate? They're trying to cure a deadly, highly contagious disease... I don't care how many journals and recordings they leave around any reasonable person would have to assume this is not guaranteed to work and that patient should be told of what is about to happen.

That's because it is wrong. That's the point.

The Road spoilers:

I didn't see the ending of The Road as a happy ending.

I totally didn't trust does people at the end. Sure they had kids with them, but that might just be part of their ruse.

@castiel said:

I think that's stretching it a bit far. I think the family was supposed to come off as fine, but the ambiguity lies in the fact that the state of the world around them remains the same. It doesnt matter if he's with a good family or not, because everyone is living on borrowed time anyway

Yeah let's murder a young girl without her knowledge or consent because maybe our doctors in this rinky-dink facility can maybe use their busted-ass equipment to maybe figure out a cure for this thing and maybe we'll magically develop the infrastructure necessary to mass produce this miracle cure and maybe be able to distribute it around the planet maybe because we really really believe in it maybe.

People without kids tend to fall around 50/50 on Joel's decision. People with kids agree with Joel 100% of the time.

Love that comment. A lot of people, even a majority, might be cool with willingly giving up their own lives for a hope and a prayer. Having their lives taken by force? Not so much. Having their kid's life taken by force? Out comes the shiv bitch.

Was there really any other choice? I read The Road a long time ago, I remember liking it a lot, but I haven't seen the movie yet (will soon) and I couldn't even remember the ending without reading naru's spoiler.

I gotta say TLOU outdid The Road, IMO. Just based on the fact that I forgot the ending of The Road, and I don't think I'll forget the ending of TLOU.

Even if I had kids I wouldn't agree. And that isn't true, just look at the poll about the climax in Last of Us. I would prefer my sacrifice, the sacrifice of a child of mine, or a loved daughter figure, for a greater good. What good is there in enduring a miserable life, a life you know you could possibly better? To me that is more of a punishment, than death itself.

I know, I made that poll, but the sample size is way too small. I'd love to talk to whomever it was that has kids and still voted against Joel's decision, because WTF. No matter what you think you may or may not do now, once you have kids everything changes. Your brain literally starts working differently.

Ellie may lead a miserable life, but murdering her doesn't do anything to make her life better.

Ellie's death would benefit humanity. In the very least it would advance the knowledge of the disease, making finding a vacine and a cure easier.

There isn't a magical number to validate the death of one of a number of people. Personally I would sacrifice myself If I knew the life I had, or even the possibilities I sacrificed, would in turn better, even if so slightly, the conditions of mankind. It's not a death to let other live in the same way they did before, but with less population, but offer them different possibilities. I think it would be worth it. To me mankind is the bipedals and the relations they make between themselves, their societies.

Yeah, but you know your life and the life all around you could improve with her sacrifice. She could at least make the vacine and cure a more realistic possibility.