PAX East 2014: Why Internet Jerks Aren’t Going to Win, And You Can Help

Patrick kicks ass, never knew about the crap he recieved from internet jerks when his dad passed, that is rough stuff

Guess its not a good thing that i'd shout a whole load of hate at those jerks

I'm not someone who really cares about spoilers much but that did kinda come out of left field. I haven't played Ground Zeroes yet so I don't know how much of a spoiler that is but maybe shouldn't have used it in the talk if it a big surprise.

@patrickklepek maybe you want to mention the spoiler in the description. Again, not sure how much of a spoiler it is and you know the context better than I do.

@asiwassaying:

If you think Internet trolls and toxicity on the internet is only an American thing you have no idea.

Wait, so you have encountered problems because you chose to sacrifice your online anonymity, and your solution is for me to give up mine?

The cure sounds worse than the disease. At least you're making money from your decision.

I'm from Norway and I can tell you that that is absolutely not true. Our sites are filled with as much hate, ignorance, racism and sexism as any other.

I too am one of the silent ones and just like the many others in here I felt the need to post a comment after watching this. I really liked the video and hopefully I will start to submit more comments with praise and/or constructive criticism.

god bless pantick kelpik god bless zoey deschan god bless them and love them. gods love is pure. you will all be judged by god. you will be blessed. god bless michael vick. god bless jeremy calrkson. god is good.

Fantastic panel, really very informative.

Came here for LULZ, left feeling warm and fuzzy inside... What have you people done?!?

The core of the message, being positive, is something I think about regularly. Yet, I'm sure if you look up all the comments I've made, you'll still find some that are somewhat dickish.

I feel part of what Zoe talked about, feelings that don't make you weak, also applies for the other side. I do sometimes make a dickish comment, because I do have feelings and I'm letting them known. Now, I don't make the comments that tell people to kill themselves, but there have been a good bunch of 'if you think so, you're crazy' ones.

This is not a one sided argument. We are all human yes. That means you will get hurt by mean comments, yes. But it also means that people will make hurtful comments. Because as we've established we are humans. And that's what humans do from time to time. No one is nice all the time, and especially in a sea of comments, among a sea of users, you are just going to see a bunch of nasty comments. And some of those comments might be coming from people who thoroughly believe they shouldn't make them.

You can't stop being human from one side and promote the other.

The conversation is about good people (adults or not) to speak out. I don't think trolls are bound to any age group (actually I know that). And what do you mean with "change comes from within"? Yes, but not without a reminder.

First of all, if you want to "fight" internet jerks, maybe you shouldn't focus on the jerks themselves and more on your uneducated, frustrated, violent and stressed out American society. I'd bet Scandinavian websites don't deal with that level of vitriol, or Japanese sites.

Also, you should stop pointing fingers at the jerks, or the internet, and maybe start looking yourself in the mirror ask yourselves; why does it stick with me? Maybe because you let them, sure you shouldn't be blamed for being the victim, but why does it hurt you and not Bill Maher? Work on your self-confidence, if you don't do it for yourself, do it for the ones you love. Bullies are cowards and pick on people who don't fight back, if bullies picked on stronger people they would have confronted whoever or whatever made them feel weak about themselves and never became bullies in the first place. Patrick, you'll have to grow up, not the jerks, not the internet, you. If a fat person gets beaten down when someone calls him fat, that person needs to either stop being fat or stop associating "being fat" with shameful. You are not a child in a schoolyard being laughed at and ridiculed by everybody around, you are not scared and helpless juggling suicidal thoughts, you just need to stand straight, look them in the eye and smile.

That was great, fantastic work Patrick and Zoe!!

Awesome! I wanted to see this panel.

Few points that disturbed me.This doesn't apply to the harassment bit but, I think we can all agree that there's always going to be bad apples in the society, the 99% are just fine but the 1% aren't. Why focus on the 1%? A good point from Zoe was that you should have a laugh about it and sort of ignore it, sort of not read comments.

Second bit:

There aren't "trolls", "that's harassment" but then there's trolling back from the one being harassed? If someone does X thing to you does it make it alright to do the same thing X to them as well? I don't see the reasoning behind this.

@rvone: Touche!

I hope nobody, including @patrickklepek gets me wrong. I think the effort he puts into promoting ACTUAL adult conversations about ACTUAL things in this community is invaluable.

I just tend to think that the ACTUAL adults in the community are the ones having all of the adult conversations, while the younger, less socially-savvy denizens of the web are the ones hurling suicide orders and "doing shit for teh lulz". The former will have little to no effect on the latter, and eventually the latter will grow up and behave more like the former. It's life. It's the internet. In both scenarios, any change comes from within, not from having a bunch of people telling you you're doing a bad thing and should feel bad.

Try imagining the internet as the largest amphitheater in the world. When you fill an arena that size full of individuals there will always be those that are loud, obnoxious, beer spilling, date groping, bad breathed, fun killers. It's insane to think that there wont be.

Some random person in that theater is going to get beer spilled on their head because the couple behind them is grinding their privates together without a single fuck given about the $13 beer sloshing out of the cup they're holding. 4 out of 10 people in the mosh pit are going to get a bloody nose because of some rogue elbow or thrown beer can. There will be black out drunks screaming obscenities at everyone they see. Individuals that steal phones and wallets out of peoples pockets. Fights. And more!!!!

Whenever you're dealing with a large group of people there are going to be some that no one wants there. The internet is that times 1000. It's magnified further because it's recorded. Everything doesn't happen in a single moment, it sticks there and is available to go back to later and re-experience. Patrick is right that it's just a small percentage of people causing problems but it's a small percentage of a huge huge HUGE number.

I agree that it's up to the good people to outweigh the output of the bad people. Stand up for yourself and others. If you see someone being bullied you can very easily diffuse the situation by characterizing them as a bully to their face (figuratively). It's the right thing to do. There's also no danger to it when the internet is anonymous.

If you were to call out the couple spilling beer on you at a concert you are very likely going to be punched in the face because you interrupted their hump session, they're drunk, and they don't like your face. On the internet you're safe to be the bigger person! They can't easily get to you because you're protected by anonymity. So poke the bear as much as you can! Be funnier than they are mean. Be nicer than they are loud. Be more responsible than they are stupid. You have nothing to lose. Also, 9 times out of 10 there's another random user waiting to back you up.

Getting rid of anonymity would just make it so that these jerks can gain access to your real life easier. It isn't a one way street. Good people AND bad people would have to use their real names and that means bad people can then find where you live. It's moronic to want less anonymity on the internet. It makes everything less safe and the consequences outweigh the benefits tenfold.

We can regulate this ourselves. We need good people speaking up better, and inventive ways to personalize what comments you want to see. I strongly believe that being able to minimize comments and ignore users on your personal browser when you see them behaving badly would solve 75% of the problems. The last 25% requires a conscious effort to make it better yourself.

Listen to Gandhi and be the change that you want to see in the world.

Great job, guys. I'm glad you were able to film this!

Thought I would clarify your message a little bit for a less theoretical discussion.

I have actually done this multiple times, being one of the probably-insane individuals who will willingly wade into the YouTube comments section with an olive branch in their right hand and a banhammer in their left. It's true that it's almost impossible to change minds on such a forum, but I've found that it's almost always the case that you can turn a fallacy-ridden argument toward emotionally honest debate.

Correct, which is why Patrick has so many times asked his detractors to discuss their feedback with him personally. The point they're making in this panel is that - if you are able to - you should be willing to engage disdain with sincerity, because so few people expect their opinion to be heard (which is why so many feel it necessary to shout that opinion) either online or off that you're more likely to engender a thoughtful reaction.

@neurotic: You're contributing more to change the environment of dialogue than you previously believed you could, and I don't think anyone can fault you for that.

@cripplor: Reminding the choir maybe, yes. We know what we think but not always what we say/or don't say.

I like Patrick's idea of fighting against hate on the Internet by just being more positive online. I often won't post responses to anything unless it's some sort of criticism, but now I'm gonna stop reserving posts for that and just talk about how much I like something when I actually do like it...Starting with this post! :D

Good panel. The best part was Zoe's informal survey of former online harassers and how the common thread was "I changed because my friends weren't tolerating that bullsh*t", which is a strong argument against "don't feed the trolls".

I suspect the old "don't feed the trolls" tactic comes from a belief that anyone posting such bile online never wanted to be a part of the community and joined just to stir things up for the lulz. But now it seems like the majority of "trolls" are people who want to be a part of the community but hate a specific part of it & feel they have carte blanche to rip apart any parts they hate. (For example, people that love GiantBomb but despise Patrick.) In such cases, ignoring them would backfire horribly, as it implies acceptance of their behavior by the community they care about being a part of.

Two different types of trolls react very differently to two different ways of dealing with them. So which blanket method should you go with? The "lulz" trolls will eventually get bored & move on, even if you react to them, while they "heavily-invested" trolls will stick around for the long-term no matter what. Therefore, I'd go with the solution targeting the "heavily-invested" trolls, aka "don't tolerate that bullsh*t".

@tothenines: If you're going to use Joe Rogan as an example where the other method works, you're going to have to elaborate on it a bit. I'm not familiar with him or his situation and you left out any details so it might as well be... magic! *jazzhands*

very nice talk by all involved.

I have to admire Patrick's cunning plan to avoid generating hate on the web for his contributions to Giant Bomb, by moving to Chicago and having the space he would have previously filled be taken by Matt "Dear God He's Condescending" Rory.

Bravo Patrick. Bravo.

@christoffer: Wouldn't that fall under the umbrella of "Preaching to the Choir"?

This panel is one of the biggest reasons I am heartbroken about missing PAX this year...thanks a bunch for posting this.

@scarycrayons: You are absolutely right.

Patrick, I hate you. Because these comments are going to be a nightmare to moderate.

But seriously, I'm looking forward to giving this a watch when I find the time. Thank you for trying to make the internet a better place, Scoops.

I feel like this talk spoke to me very directly since I am one of those people who disengages from forums and comments sections for fear of accidentally reading some toxic stupidity or even just a coarsely worded opinion that clashes with mine and irritates me. I'm the kind of person who shies away from conflict, which has resulted in me never really being able to truly feel a part of an online community.

For example, I've been visiting Giant Bomb for around two years now but I rarely visit the forums (except for a brief flurry when I first signed up) and can't remember the last time I left a comment. I pay my subscription fee, I watch the videos I want and I listen to the podcast. I thought that was enough, that my tiny contribution to page views, podcast downloads and subscription fees was proof that I think you guys are doing a good job. I thought that carrying on supporting you silently was enough so that I didn't have to dive into a comments section invariably filled with things that infuriate me. It always seemed to me that any positive comment I would make would just get swept away in the rest of it and ignored. It never occurred to me that you would ever see it so what's the point? It also never occurred to me that I didn't necessarily have to argue with people in order to have any impact. There still may be a lot of nasty comments out there but even one more nice one evens out the ratio a little.

So I'm setting myself a new goal as a result of this panel: For everything I watch, read or listen to and enjoy, I will leave a comment stating so, preferably being more specific as to why. If I didn't enjoy it as much or if there were parts I didn't like then I will point those out as well but in a reasoned way that is clearly constructive criticism and not a snide quip, to which I am prone. After leaving the comment, I will hightail it outta there and whilst there I won't read any other comments. I will engage with the video/article/thing directly instead of letting it be coloured by the comment section. It seems incredibly obvious when laid out like that and I don't think it's quite what Patrick has in mind when combating trolls and harassers, it seems like he advocates a more consistent confrontation. However, while I agree that 'not feeding the trolls' is ineffective, I think that ignoring them but reaching over them to still engage with the video/article/thing is effective in its own way and suits my personality better. If my comment is read and makes someone feel good or gives them reasoned criticism to think about then that's great. If not, then at least it evens out the ratio of nice:nasty comments.

I like to think that not all of my future comments will be as long, incoherent and maudlin as this one but this panel actually had a pretty large effect on me, considering I wasn't really expecting to sit all the way through it. So, thank you Patrick and Zoe for inspiring me to make an effort to engage with the Internet a little more. I think you proved yourself able and persuasive public speakers (especially to be able to convince my cynical ass to do anything) and that this was really well put together. Keep fighting the good fight.

Good point. But I think Patrick's and Zoe's points are more about imbuing good behavior in good people... that's all, and that's enough.

@tr0n:

You might have missed it, but Patrick makes light of it when they do. They're shouting "SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!"

I think that saying ignoring the hate just doesn't work, is a bit too conclusive. For very famous people like Joe Rogan, it truely does. Other than that I think this was an amazingly brave panel. I hope it reaches the mainstream.

@tr0n: They are saying "Scoooooops".

I can't avoid feeling like the next step is putting a disclaimer on every website saying "If someone in the comments tells you to kill yourself, you don't actually have to kill yourself."

I can't say I agree with Patrick espousing accountability for everyone who ever says something off-color on the internet. Rallying folks to shoot down any bully they see online would achieve exactly the opposite, in my eyes. The change has to come from within oneself first, before the world at large will change. If everyone on earth subscribed to the philosophy of "don't be a dick", we'd be exploring space in 6 relative dimensions right now. But you can't berate someone for being a dick until they stop, it just isn't possible.

Powerful words. Thanks Patrick, thanks Zoe!

A well needed panel especially at a place like PAX.

I'm glad I got to say hi to you Patrick before the meetup on Friday night and a bit bummed I never got to say hi to Zoe before PAX ended.

Really it comes down to not accepting the type of behavior we see all too often and subtlety changing the culture of the internet. Bad behavior will always exist and that attitude of descent is sometimes really important. However it shouldn't be the norm, it should be the exception. We shouldn't see it so prominently, and accepted, on Twitter and Youtube but instead in the strange and "hidden" areas of the internet like 4chan.

Hopefully it begins the discussion, changes some minds, or at least causes a person or two to rethink what they say and how they say it.

The whole internet is a car crash.

Patrick Klepek

Asshole ouroboros

Zoe Quinn

One thing I have been wanting for a long time, is to make comments sections optional! It's a huge pain to wait for a simple short article to load a comment section that's 10+ times longer than the article. Very few sites allow expandable comment sections, something that's slowly changing but isn't a standard. Most of the time, we just want to read and article and leave. I feel like the majority of people are not benefitting from the mandatorily-below comment sections.

I actually liked the whole talk, Patrick and Zoe alike. I'm more familiar with Patrick's work so I already know his mind better, but Zoe I'm not familiar with and she has a great attitude and methods.

I like the idea of smaller communities being corralled into their own more private forums. The people who actually want to talk about it will, and the jerks will be filtered out way easier. Youtube comment sections with 100+ comments are just unruly and not conducive to meaningful conversations. No audience reads 100 comments on Youtube, but I will literally read 100+ replies on a forum I go to if I am passionate enough to talk about the topic. A private forum doesn't allow the mindless repetition and single-spouting, but organizes and distills thoughts to make a group conversation way easier.

I like the sentiment of: When you appreciate things, any things, let the person know. I've been trying to actively do this more online. I'm always thanking in real life, but online there are so many opportunities so fast that they can slip past me so easily. I listened to a musician for years and promoted their music by word of mouth, and only finally let them know more recently. Just today I emailed an independent developer about how cool I thought their upcoming game idea was.

Lastly, an article you may enjoy, dear reader:

What is the Monkeysphere?

Huge thanks to Zoe and Patrick. This is important, and I am so glad I have an easy way to share it with people now.

Excellent panel, thank you both for taking the helm on this discussion. You've inspired me to add more positive comments on deserving threads... and possibly more sarcasm, though i'll be careful with it. Promise.

When you call people "fucking idiots" just for liking a game you don't, that's bullying.

@patrickklepek

Thanks for the random MGS: Ground zeroes spoiler. That was totally great.

Game been out for 27 days guess everyone played.

It's not the anonymity, it's just knowing that there won't be immediate repercussions from the people they are saying it to. That's not just for insults either, but for people simply speaking their mind as well.

For example, it's very unlikely that a reviewer would ever tell a woman in person that "women with big breasts can't be taken seriously, and only exist to titillate men."

On an internet review, however? They've been doing that for years, under their real names. They're speaking their mind, for better or worse, and don't have women confronting them with "Wait, what?" as soon as they say it. They can just brush criticisms against what they just said as "Well, those people must be sexist trolls!"

Rock Paper Shotgun is an amazing example of that, even going so far as to having an entire page stating that they ignore criticism against them, and that anyone with a different view is probably a misogynist, or is just claiming to 'have a friend who is a girl' rather than actually being female themselves. It's kind of laughable, but the fact that they see themselves as the paragon of stamping out sexism, whilst simultaneously going through the whole 'female gamers don't exist' and 'all female characters in games are gross because their character doesn't matter and their bodies are just sex objects' motions, is embarrassing.

Great panel Patrick. Keep up the awesome work.

I'm glad this is being discussed. Great panel, Patrick!

Well, a great intro. Just started.