Giant Bombcast 449: Roomful of Narcs

I thought that when I came back, the comment section would be a total mess, but theres quite a lot of good viewpoints here, and without hate and insults, too. Thats why I think GB is great.

@corwag has maybe the best approach in reacting level headed, so more power to you. Its ok to like the GB crew the same way it is ok to be "fed up" by them having one sided opinions. In my opinion, I think that GB is at its best when they're honest and speaking their own minds without feeding their audience things they already believe. As long as what they say is honest (and not hateful) I have no problems with it.

@lonelyspacepanda: It wasn't meant to be a strawman, so let me elaborate.I quoted the least offensive (which isn't even meant to be offensive, but whatever) line of text because it proves the point that it was meant being obnoxiously offensive to make money. Read the bold text below the lyric quotation i've posted in the last response. I've meant that there really is no point into saying that offensive lines of text should be directly interpreted as such as its obvious bait and switching. It happened in the 70s, in the 80s and even more so in the 90s. I think it is transparent enough to not feel offended by it if you're understanding that saying offensive shit often makes money. Accepting the good parts as well as the bad ones so you can make your own deicisions makes up for a better experience with media, which kind of is what Dan usually does. Acceptance usually is what makes for a better community, too.

So with that said, I'm pretty sure the band came over the song and everything is good. Its not like the end of the world. I don't know the all the details about the song so I can just make educated guesses.

Anyway, I get the feeling that the new generation of internet browsing folks should at least educate those who don't know about its in a more suitable manner, instead of calling out people who don't get it. You already implied heavily that it is all about context, then what are those artworks I gave as an example all about? I mean when I would see those inside 4chan I would never be offended because thats what one expects when browsing that site. But what about people who see these things outside of 4chan on their day-to-day browsing? I don't know, I believe it is impossible to blame them. I do blame people who intentionally seek offensive stuff, then shortly afterwards they play the "I'm offended!" card though.

What I mean is that you shouldn't really be offended by stuff that is meant to rub you the wrong way on a site that is infamously known on as a platform where people post offensive stuff. Back in the day when I still browsed it, trolling on 4chan was called "pissing in a ocean of piss". But on to a different topic.

Calling ADL, which existed for 103 years "an old media organisation", is sort of beating a dead horse. Love it or hate it, but thats kinda what they do, at least from what I've read about them. Note that I'm not familiar with them, just googling through stuff they've done over the last century. I think being aggressively dismissive is doing you and everyone else who cares about discussing the issue at hand a disservice. I do think that the pictures there provide plenty of political context here, because they're loaded with such. I don't know if you can connect Pepe Nazi memes with chan stuff anymore when people post it to rail strangers outside of that site, which I feel is important to understand here.

I get that you mean "This shit comes from 4chan, so stop taking it seriously!" out from the example you provided, but I get the feeling that those who feel offended aren't really related to the stuff that happens on 4chan. Or are you implying that 4chan IS the internet? Because thats what I interpret from your post. It would be cool if you could at least respond to this paragraph, so I can understand where you're coming from.

Anyway, it is simply free speech that hateful memes (I do believe we both agree that "Kill Jews, man" is some really fucking hateful stuff) are being called as such. If you have a problem with that, then you should at least provide arguements on why memes are compareable to song lyrics, because I'm having a difficult time comparing a song that was made to cause a manufactured controversy by a singer who almost got robbed by black people with a harmless meme that got fucked up by people who're eager on stepping over the line. We're having different viewpoints here, so it is always nice knowing other peoples viewpoints, expecially at a time where a lot of people are polarized. I'm pretty sure it will be mere days after the election when everyone ends caring about their favorite and move on.

You should seriously look at the ADL link I've posted previously though. If this stuff would've stayed on 4chan, I'm sure nobody would've even care.

EDIT: Right after clicking that post button, it came to me that you probably only looked at Nimble America examples of Pepe, which are dumber, but less offensive examples of the meme. So for context, please look at some of the ADL examples or just google "nazi pepe" or whatever. No idea why one would do that though.

@slindz: I can see where you're coming from. Those links are disturbing, especially the ones that have 50+ upvotes. But I'd still hesitate to label the group supporting "white supremacists" as a whole. It's a tricky thing. It kind of reminds me of ... that gate of gamers thing... where the claim that they are all deplorable is a gross exaggeration, but there is a definite lack of effort to weed out the bad apples in the group (almost conveniently so). I still haven't seen posts themselves upvoted, but you have shown that lots of bad comments get through. It's really hard to say how significant that is since A) some people really cherish freedom of speech at any cost online (ugly comments are a side-effect) B) how many upvotes do views of the opposite opinion get and C) these images leave out the context, current vote # and if they are even on the_donald in the first place (I did check for one and confirmed it was real). I still think the vast majority of those that visit the_donald aren't bigots and the posts themselves there don't represent this. Racist comments could be reluctance to moderate, support of racist ideals or shitposting. I don't care to stick around the place long enough to find out.

There is so much grey area in this discussion though. Does Luckey even support the_donald? Didn't the_donald not support Nimble America? This crap is so confusing. I still stand-by my point: substantial claims deserves substantial evidence and I still haven't seen something to convince me Nimble America or Luckey are themselves racist or contributed to an environment where racist thoughts are allowed to exist and expand. As far as I can tell, Luckey like some aspects of Trump and dislikes Hillary. I think that's a lot of people in the world, right now and there isn't anything wrong with having an opinion on politics.

@dray2k: Using a meme that isn't based in racism but has racist supporters doesn't make one racist. Enjoying Guns n Roses that made a racist (possibly joke) song that has racist fans doesn't make one racist. That's pretty much my comparison. Call it a dumb one if you think so, but it's not much more complicated than that. I just think guilty-by-association when it comes to something that has touched MILLIONS of people is kind of asinine.

This pepe thing is so weird, confusing and -- dare I say -- hilarious. You can slap offensive, bigoted messages/words on anything and turn it "racist". This wasn't actually a movement though. As stupid as it sounds, this all was a political play by Hillary to make Trump and his supporters look bad. It wasn't like racist pepe was flooding in the internet. I never saw or heard of these images and I follow several memelords, occasionally check the_donald and am heavily involved with the cesspool called the gaming community. The only reason this came to our attention is because Donald Trumps son was stupid enough to proudly retweet a Photoshopped image that had Trump, Pepe and (I believe) actual white supremacists. Hillary's campaign, being fully aware of how incredibly stupid this act was (Trump's son probably still clueless), capitalized on it by putting out a press release about how pepe is a racist meme and if you are against racism you shouldn't use it and vote for her. This actually sounds like the plot of Idiocracy 2.

I've been on the internet long enough to not be surprised that A) 4chan is still a cesspool B) the media grossly misunderstanding 4chan and spicy memes (remember "The hacker known as 4chan"?) C) political groups taking advantage of an opponent's mistake/ignorance. I won't deny that 4chan's blurring of actual racism with shock-jock memeing is a dangerous thing that has actual racist gleeful that they can openly spread hate within such a shitstorm. But I don't think that's what's happening here or, in the very least, is anywhere near as prevalent as people are making it out to be.

For a much clearer, humorous take on this topic, I recommend checking out Anthony Fantano's take on it:

Jeez! The comment section lead me to believe this episode would be a mess of angry political ranting. They reported what happened pretty objectively and kept it brief. Sure their opinions leak into the conversation a little, but that's only natural. We're just duders after all.

I found the Destiny and God Eater talk to be much more unbearable. :p

Well then, ok. Approach me with that in mind. Nobody appreciates being told what they're thinking, or what's actually in their hearts. Attacking me like they did, automatically put me into defensive mode, and by that point I couldn't give two ****s what they had to say beyond that point. Again, trying to police words is rather fruitless.

History has no sides. It just is.

A lot of video game nerdos are generally pretty terrible, unfortunately. It comes with the territory.

@lonelyspacepanda: Thanks for the link. Yeah, this is even sillier than your usual first world problem. It really goes to show how much of a shitfest this election period is. Can't wait that people stop talking about it 3 days after its over.

And yeah, me posting the ADL and CNN links had completly different relations than the Palmer Lucky drama so I can understand that you were dismissive about them, they had nothing with the stuff that was discussed here. Sorry about the confusion. People using memes to use for their political propaganda or hatespeech has to be the dumbest first world shit that I've seen all day. I can understand Jeffs reaction (and share his sentiments) when he spoke about it because the entire situation is so dumb it really feels like something out of a movie, or even a beginning of a Saints Row game.

Anyway, before I stop writing, there is something that is called Remix Culture that is probably important to know when talking about people using a harmless thing to create something harmful to a group of people. As an example, the Nazi swastika is what it is, but the original that existed for 5000 years still is valued by people and holds its positive meaning not even tainted by its misuse. Internet memes are even easier to change, up to a point where they're starting to become something entirely new, because thats what memes mean. Not to mention its less than 1% of people who use these the meme in the way we wrote about. I'm pretty sure its one of those things people forget in a week.

Anyway, thats all I can say about these things. Hope it didn't hurt anyones brain, first world problems at its finest.

#thinkofthevinny

@petefic: The Rapp situation was completely different in a bunch of different ways. Child pornography is a serious crime in the US, but having support of a political candidate, or at the least, putting out silly memes about them isn't. Trying to make them equivalent is a fallacy in itself. But also the Rapp situation is different in the fact that it wasn't really her views on it that got her in trouble as much as her being an escort, which was in violation of company policy.

That being said, I'm not defending GB's reaction to it on the podcast. I think it is pretty hypocritical, as you say. What it really does is answer the question that Jeff raises in the podcast, asking why wouldn't you just let your political views be known? Let's just be frank here... This is "news" because it is at the very least anti-Clinton if not fully blown pro-Trump. If this were the other way around, this wouldn't have been a blip on the radar. Actually, he might even get public praise for it.

I'm incredibly disappointed that Luckey's "I thought it sounded like a real jolly good time" quote hasn't itself become a meme. Think of the potential!

I loved this section of the show, clearly some one listens to their podcast? MBMBaM was out earlier? I personally loved the hell out of the 3rd movie as a kid. Giant hot wheels cars, falling in chip dip and using a bubble machine to fly. All good stuff.

Rise of Iron is infinitely INFINITELY better then Taken King. The only good things about Taken King were the restructuring of the quest systems and the new subclasses. The cut scenes were also a nice touch to flesh out the story. Outside of that the mission structure was relatively bland, the Dreadnought was really boring, all the new weapons were mediocre and the Raid was the poorest one so far.

Rise of Iron has a much better and varied area in the form of the Plaguelands. It may have elements of old Russia in it, but it still far more varied then most of the other maps in the game. The weapons are way more interesting, the story more fascinating and the Raid might be the best one so far; a close contender to Vault of Glass.

Paladins was in development before Overwatch, and there are several known cases where Paladins released info on a character that they "copied" from Overwatch before Overwatch did. You've now perpetuated the belief that Paladins stole everything it is from Overwatch in a 'gross' fashion and contributed to the internet narrative that will most likely continue forever regardless of the actual truth. Please do some research and at least try to present both sides of a discussion before bashing a product on your podcast. It's very popular and thus also very influential, and the remarks you make casually without much thought can have major impacts on people's livelihood.

Palmer Luckey faces actual discrimination for implied discrimination.

Then again, If I had an employee openly supporting Hillary Clinton I'd probably treat them like shit too. What an awful, awful woman.

It is pretty appalling that Obama is spending time telling people a vote for a third party candidate = voting for Trump. When you could say the same thing about Hillary. People are supposed to vote for the candidate they want to win. Not give it up for some strategy play.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed and was disappointed by the inconsistency in how some members of the crew treated the two cases.

I think the first best option is to just avoid political discussion on the podcast since it is always a drag. Failing that it would be nice if there was some effort to have representatives from across the spectrum. Clearly the progressive side is represented by Brad, Alex, Austin and Patrick when they were here, etc. and that is cool, but there are other views. That doesn't mean they need to bring on one of those alt-right a-holes but there are plenty of thoughtful people who are to the right of the crew. You don't need to hire someone for their politics (that would suck) but you can bring on guests from time to time. That said, I would prefer to just avoid the politics.

bleh well the palmer stuff was as I expected. Bleh - if people are not going to buy his stuff because of who he gives money to then they are fools. He can give money to who he wants but then I'm voting for Gary Johnson so my tolerance may be larger for such stuff than our liberal California friends. Sigh...at least it wasn't a whole hour of discussion but man I hope it doesn't come up again. Between this and Jeff's hatred of the California tech scene ...

@jeff so as a patent lawyer with some copyright experience it looks like it would be litigious to me. No you can not patent or trademark type of play but man the music when you put the blocks, the overall look and feel? Oh yes you can copyright that. It would be copyright and not trademark, but yeah copyright seems like would work to me.

And wow do I disagree with the piracy stuff. I mean anything a company wants to do to block you showing a game to someone over the internet they should do. I mean the number of games I don't have to buy because I watch them on youtube....

what a pro, not playing to video when he so easily could.

then again, that could probably be considered playing to radio...

DREW YOU TRICKSTER

Mmmm, can't get enough of that Tap Tycoon.

@tacosgigante: Just because people get angry in the comments section doesn't mean they should avoid politics. Palmer Luckey was the biggest story in gaming for a few days, for better or worse, so of course they should discuss it. And when discussing something like this you can't avoid politics. They discuss the news and this was news very much relevant to gaming.

Wizards & Warriors bought an e-sports team? Is Fabio their mascot?

@lively: "...racist tendencies." ??? Huh?

Part of the problem we have in this country is the "tendency" for one side to be throwing around the word "racist" every chance they get.

I'd say that actual racism is a much bigger problem than people calling it out, and part of the reason it's allowed to flourish is because so many people refuse to talk about it or do anything about it even in places where it's plain and obvious. Staying quiet and allowing the status quo to go unchanged is not a good solution.

I think maybe a more charitable way of interpreting what you said is to try to assume the best of intentions about people until proved otherwise. I'll grant that we don't know for sure what Palmer thinks, but I've seen enough to be quite sure about the much of the community in /r/The_Donald, and it's very bizarre that he's chosen to associate with them.

One involves a woman who was attacked for no good reason until the mob against her motivated Nintendo to getting her fired. Regardless of what she actually got fired for (never confirmed), she wouldn't have gotten fired in the first place if a bunch of nerdy little shitlords hadn't made it their mission to ruin her life because video games.

The other is the founder of a large VR company using his money to fund a hate group and spread racist memes in an effort to elect a racist person to be the president of the United States.

Yeah, they're totes same.

I find if highly interesting that after declaring GG a hate group that harasses women out of the industry, they remained silent after Gizmodo went after Luckey's girlfriend and she was harassed off twitter. Guess she had the wrongthink and had it coming?

@tikimorpher said:

Supporting a hate group isn't "wrongthink," it's wrong.

I'll pass on watching the guy with the childish mentality of an edgy 14 year old who has no problem making fun of fat people, so called "SJWs" and feminists just for the sake of it, or rather does it to appease his fans over at /mu/.

This whole notion that 4chan and these memes are "misunderstood" is just ridiculous to me. 4chan is an incredibly racist and sexist message board and it is intrinsic in its culture. There is no "blurred line". Their comments and opinions don't become less racist just because they are used in the context of a meme or a joke.
Their actions speak the loudest and they revel in hate speech and targeting people.

The connections between Palmer, Nimble America, Milo, racist rhetoric, and support of Trump are important news. I'm very happy that there are competitors in the PC VR space because I will never buy an Oculus product as long as he is employed there in any capacity.

Going through his likes on twitter, and his girlfriend's openly racist twitter posts shows the kind of ideas he supports and the hatred he wishes to perpetuate.

@magmamud said:

Fat people, so called "SJWs" and feminists aren't above criticism. If we don't call the bad from the good and let them off because we want to be "a good ally" then you have crazies like the Hugh Mungus feminist, those videos of women physically assaulting a cop, then crying "rape" when arrested, or the Trigglypuff girl who rages and is more disruptive than any dumbass MRA I've seen. I think it takes a lot of maturity to be reflective of the actions coming from you own political allies and calling someone "an edgy 14 year old" is mostly a cognitive dissonance tell. Everyone I disagree with must just be "14 year olds" I guess?

Fantano, H3H3, and Jontron are all left politically but they all share a commonality of feeling people on the left have gone so far that you need to call out bad actors, and they do so using comedy.

As for 4chan, it exists to be labeled the worst things possible. So whatever you throw at it will stick. Naughty humors is a tradition in America, whether you agree with it or not, going back to Lenny Bruce and George Carlin. You don't have to like it but calling fans of them "racist" will only make you appear ignorant and easily offended. The important difference to make is when things leave 4chan and to recognize something like pepe means something different to 4chan than it does to somebody who never visits 4chan.

Fantano explicitly cries about all "SJWs" though. He is clearly pandering to the 4chan crowd, which is not a politically left audience. Also there's just nothing humorous about what Fantano does anyway. His commentary channel is so embarrassing, holy shit. He tries so hard.

I'm pretty certain Jontron isn't really politically left, either. H3H3 might be, maybe. All three are pretty brogressive, as far as I can tell.

As a society, we should crack down on those assholes that play Persona in front of millions of potential customers. Why would you do such a shitty thing?

@skanker @lonelyspacepanda: Doing it for the money is part of the problem why we have these channels. Appealing to preexisting biases and preaching to the choir is a major reason we have such shitshows. People who are deep into a group are almost impossible to change, thats why channels like thatistheplan will keep being obnoxious (he does this because #FollowTheMoney). However, just by looking at the channel alone I get the feeling that it also serves as a good lense to understand counter culture and how petty it all seems to be. For me, there is nothing of entertainment to be gained from these things but that doesn't mean others can enjoy "memeing it up" for what thats worth. The message I was getting from this was being seriously invested about internet memes for instance is a dumb idea, so a better way would be to just tell things how they are. What I mean is that you can either try to understand what is going on, or just shrug and move on. Both moves seem just as valid.

A bring a little bit of constructive criticism into it, labeling things how they're really are and not what they were does seem to be a way better approach then to say "these guys are offended over a non offensive thing, clearly theres something wrong with them", even though a group of people are offended by something that clearly aren't the same things anymore that the other party are calling them out for.

Another thing, I wrote this before, but I can write it here also, People should just stop generalizing groups of people that do not seem to create hateful messages. Thats practially the core of extreme political ideologues are doing. I'm pretty sure theres a lot of calling out bad behavior in all groups there are, may it be feminism, bro-culture, left/right wing, gamergate stuff...the list goes on. But because they're all attached to a name everyone does seem to be equally responsible, which does seem like an unreasonable stance. Its a great tool for dumbing down discussions into name calling (you belong to x, a member of your group did y therefore z). I don't think there is any way to police that sort of thing. The main part of the problem is that every group I've meantioned does the same thing, and only some people from each of these groups are willing to call out bad behavior and even less are willing to do so with being overly angry. Also I'm not writing about groups that label themselves as being hateful or having hateful ideas, which is a very important destinction to make. So when a group does demand something of importance, then that decision must be judged. When a member of a certain group does something that isn't affiliated with the demands of the group, then the group should have the responsibility to handle and police it. At least that would be my idealistic political utopia.

If criticizing people for being overweight and feminist is a different can of worms. You can form the basis of criticism by literally everything a person is. Demonizing people is taking a wrong approach to have a civil and constructive discussion about things, but then I doubt the majority of people actually want civil discussions over the internet. Most of these channels act as comedy and soap boxes, too bad other people use these things as a platform to harass others, though.

@onemanarmyy: Exchange society with civilization and it would've been perfect ;).

@lively: I'm sure that those who enjoy calling other people "RACIST" would agree with you.

Then they'll say how important it is that we have a "conversation" about race. Right? Haha!

Because when your calling someone else a racist....that means that YOU are NOT a racist....right? Is that how it works?

@dray2k: Still digesting your suggestion that Fantano does the meme review on his 2nd channel for money. That's like suggesting Jeff does MIXLR or Jar streams for money. His primary channel is the biggest music review channel on YouTube and this 2nd channel has always existed for his own personal interests. This is clearly just a funny thing to him and it's a funny thing to us fans of it.

Personally, I don't associate with 4chan, the gaming community at large or any body that knows what a meme even is. So it's nice to have him breakdown this stupid stuff so I can at least have some basic understanding of what people are even talking about with "Harambe" and he's pretty funny too but humor is subjective so whatever.

As for the rest of your post, good luck getting any of that to happen. There is nothing we like more than approval and there is no approval easier to achieve than the self-approval of patting oneself on the back for being ostensibly a smarter, better person than someone else online. So yes, everyone online are stupid racists and I am awesome. Aww, self-approval. Sweet sweet self-approval!

@lonelyspacepanda: Oh, I thought he gains revenue from the 2nd channel so he can give them their audience what they want as an entertainer. Sorry for the misunderstanding then.

And yeah, self approval on the internet is very easy and people do that all the time, expecially when groups of people are circlejerking in their fav circle. I would pet my shoulder too if my utopian views would hold any merit to reality but realistically they don't.

I do know and that comes from my knowlege in german, that people use different words for things that had changed for the meaning. To go with the Swastika example again. They use Swastika as a term to label the religious Indian symbol for "Lucky Charm" but they use "Hakenkreuz" (jagged cross) to label the Nazi Swastika. While in countries like America there only is one word for it, at least as far as I know. You can apply the same procedure on literally anything. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I believe there is a nuance to almost any discussion.

Regardless, I do think still unfortunate though that people can just dodge responsibility for the things they say. People enjoy being lazy and being in a group of likeminded people just makes things easier. I'm just a bit bummed, thats why I wrote that long "wouldn't that be cool" paragraph about people willingly putting work into something so you can tell the bad apples appart but I'm still a firm believer that most people are actually rather nice to each other. I'm just riding the wave that being thick headed isn't very constructive to learn from one another so I try to stay open with most stances.

Well, politically not so, but I don't think having serious debates should be taken litely. What I mean but rather just opinion based smalltalk-stuff like Video Game and what not, being on the internet and reading comments on flamewars and whatnot for whatever reasons go hand in hand.

EDIT: Maybe you want to know it, I felt bummed because I felt that in retrospect my response about first world problems felt rather petty and ignorant and not 100% honest to my feelings about the matter, so I've done a few minutes of research and read a few articles (such as this one) after I've wrote to you a day ago. It's nice to see the creator taking such a cute and caring stance. I can relate to that also in a way, but thats striving off from I wanted to say. Call me soft but I do not feel confortable at all dismissing the feelings of others just because I wanted to understand your point better. I just think thats important to note, thats all. Being honest is more important for me than a headache by wasting some time reading about some memes ;).

Will you guys invite Palmer back on to the E3 show next year?

As a PC exclusive gamer these days I find the obsession with 60 fps to be a little silly. If the game (FH3) defaults to 30fps and still runs/plays just fine, why try to push it?

@tekzero: The issue is it drops below 30 sometimes, still, and also that games affected by input latency (primarily racing games, fighting games, and first-person shooters) benefit heavily from the increased response time. Also, the game doesn't actually like to lock to anything that *isn't* an exact 1/4 or 1/2 of your monitor's refresh rate. So mine locks to 36 at lowest, which is weird to me, because I have a 144hz monitor (actually 165 but I don't run it at that because it kills the color contrast. You'd be amazed how awful the color contrast gets at that refresh rate. Luckily 144 looks perfectly fine and still hyper-responsive) with G-sync, meaning literally any division of frames is fine on my monitor (though also the game doesn't run in exclusive full-screen, it runs in a borderless window, meaning a secondary G-sync option has to be enabled in order to get it to be affected at all).

It's also that the stutters are insanely jarring, rather than just minor drops in framerate. I mean, a game fluctuating around 40-60 is whatever, but...

And also, that they give the option for unlocked framerate themselves - it's not like Dark Souls where we were forcing 60 (which broke things a little sometimes because it was unintended)

@shffle: It's worth noting that I also don't push for the highest resolution as well. I'd be happy if it's 30fps with medium/high settings and runs well. I only have a 720p TV connected to this PC so I typically don't have any problems with current gen games.

Shit if you are going to pooh pooh the Oculus Rift designer for talking about 'Meme magic' you should also mention the politics that someone like Manveer Heir (Mass Effect: Andromeda designer) is spraying all over his twitter, have a look to see some pretty blatant anti-white race baiting. Also if you are in the US and you can't see that the media is ignoring White victims of police violence while they are provoking Blacks then I don't know what to say.

All those labels don't even mean anything anymore. They're so watered down that actual hate (which barely exists) isn't seen. When everything is problematic, racist, and sexist, then nothing is problematic, racist, or sexist. If you remember, the last 3 GOP nominees were labeled as such. I disagree with Trump on many things, but I haven't seen anything to label him as racist. No, building a wall doesn't count as racist.

@sagalla: Wow

Costa Rica is pretty dope. Brad's description matches a bunch of the cool shit we saw there. Pit Vipers, sloths, howler monkeys...all hanging out by the resort.