When I first started playing virtually all of my losses were simply macro based. Any army I had would melt and I'd lose in the first few minutes of the game.
After I found out about day9 and all that I started to get quite a bit better and my losses got to be because, looking at the replay, I would notice a stupid choice in engaging in a bad position or because I didn't upgrade properly or similar. I found these losses to be more annoying because whereas before I was just clearly inferior to my opponent these losses I actually had a chance in and essentially gave it away through poor decisions.
Lately I've been trying more fancy things like rushing to higher techs or fast expanding and as day9 says losing like that is good because it means you're trying to see what you can get away with and I find it to be less annoying to lose this way at the time but looking back I wonder if it's a good idea to take the wins I know I can get or try new things.
Has anyone else had a similar progression?
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty
Game » consists of 10 releases. Released Jul 27, 2010
The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.
Types of losses
I find my losses are so often to 'cheese' or other off the wall builds. I think I watch SO many high level Korean games that I try to emulate that level of play too much, and get caught by things you just never see in high level play that often. I tend to focus on long-term macro games with my zerg, and I do really well when games work out that way. But probably about 30% of the games I play are just these all-in mass marine pushes I can never do anything about. Gets really aggravating to see nothing but mass marines or mass zealots in every single game. I've started having to spend WAY too many drones on spines every game now just to be safe.
I find what he says only to be helpful until about platinum. I am in platinum and the stuff I am loosing to is complete bull shit. Every game I play some fucker just does some all in crazy stupid timing attack that is impossible to stop unless you turtle hard core or know its coming. It's really pissing me off because I know for a fact that I would destroy these stupid people in a macro game but because they do these stupid little things there is nothing I can do because I am not that good scouting and completely changing my plan. Like with any game people just want to get the easy wins instead of actually working on getting better at the game and it really makes the game not fun at all. I was like 25 games over .500 and I just went on a like 12 game loosing streak because of this stupid bull shit. I am seriously considering just stopping playing the game because it's starting to become more frustrating than fun. I feel like the higher up I go, the more luck is involved and the less skill. In the lower levels you won almost every game if you were the better player (unless the douche bag 6 pooled or cannon rushed), but now it's starting to be whoever's build just so happens to be better against that other specific build wins. For instance, I usually 1rax fast expand in TvT, and if he just so happens to not attack me in the early game it's an automatic win for me, but if he just so happens to do some stupid all in rush it's an automatic loss, it's so god damn annoying.
All in all, the more and more I play the game, the less and less I like it. I thought once I got to higher levels people would stop doing stupid builds that take absolutely no skill, but it seems like all the people that are doing them seem to be winning and ranking up. Just to give an example, I havent played against a cannon rush since like low silver. Then, as soon as i get into platinum, whatdaya know, I get three cannon rush games in my first 5 TvPs. I dont know, maybe I just need to take a break and come back, but this is really getting frustrating.
Well it looks like the answer to your problems as you said, is getting better at scouting and adapting to counter what they're doing instead of going into the game with a blind "I'm doing this, and if they counter me with a timing attack then they're a bad player" mindset.
Most of my losses are cause i'm messing around doing stupid crap against people who actually know what they're doing.
Strangely enough, me and my friend actually won today when i was messing around in 2v2.
BC rush first time, can't believe that worked...
Second thing i did was mass vikings and snipe overlords. Such a bastard thing to do.
But yeah, that's mostly why i lose. I do stupid crap like that.
Honestly, if they made it so you arent allowed to attack in the first 3-5 minutes until you get into diamond that would probably make the game better lol. I know I know, that's crazy talk, but even so. Actually, I think what hurt me is that I got straight into Gold after my placement, so I never was able to learn to deal with a ton of stupid cheese in the Bronze level. I dont know, maybe I'm just crazy. I do know I'm just super frustrated with this game right now, I think anyone would be after a like 12 game loosing streak.
Well, you have two choices. Either learn how to adjust your style to ladder play, or just play custom games with people who you know just want to play macro games. You just need to scout more and get better and playing safe while not overreacting. You obviously don't deal with cheese well, which isn't going to be magically fixed once you get into diamond. People cheese all the fucking time in diamond, but they also play macro games. There isn't a proper way to play the game, and just being able to say, "if this game went longer than 5 minutes I'd crush him" doesn't make you any better of a player than the person cheesing you. Just ignoring your weakness and proclaiming yourself as above it all only makes you a worse player in the long run." I find what he says only to be helpful until about platinum. I am in platinum and the stuff I am loosing to is complete bull shit. Every game I play some fucker just does some all in crazy stupid timing attack that is impossible to stop unless you turtle hard core or know its coming. It's really pissing me off because I know for a fact that I would destroy these stupid people in a macro game but because they do these stupid little things there is nothing I can do because I am not that good scouting and completely changing my plan. Like with any game people just want to get the easy wins instead of actually working on getting better at the game and it really makes the game not fun at all. I was like 25 games over .500 and I just went on a like 12 game loosing streak because of this stupid bull shit. I am seriously considering just stopping playing the game because it's starting to become more frustrating than fun. I feel like the higher up I go, the more luck is involved and the less skill. In the lower levels you won almost every game if you were the better player (unless the douche bag 6 pooled or cannon rushed), but now it's starting to be whoever's build just so happens to be better against that other specific build wins. For instance, I usually 1rax fast expand in TvT, and if he just so happens to not attack me in the early game it's an automatic win for me, but if he just so happens to do some stupid all in rush it's an automatic loss, it's so god damn annoying. All in all, the more and more I play the game, the less and less I like it. I thought once I got to higher levels people would stop doing stupid builds that take absolutely no skill, but it seems like all the people that are doing them seem to be winning and ranking up. Just to give an example, I havent played against a cannon rush since like low silver. Then, as soon as i get into platinum, whatdaya know, I get three cannon rush games in my first 5 TvPs. I dont know, maybe I just need to take a break and come back, but this is really getting frustrating. "
" @DoctorWelch said:Just look at my other post, it's not really about me. I obviously have to get better, I am just complaining about the idiots wasting there time cheesing or doing the same gimmicky build for hours upon hours without actually getting better at the game.
Well, you have two choices. Either learn how to adjust your style to ladder play, or just play custom games with people who you know just want to play macro games. You just need to scout more and get better and playing safe while not overreacting. You obviously don't deal with cheese well, which isn't going to be magically fixed once you get into diamond. People cheese all the fucking time in diamond, but they also play macro games.
There isn't a proper way to play the game, and just being able to say, "if this game went longer than 5 minutes I'd crush him" doesn't make you any better of a player than the person cheesing you. Just ignoring your weakness and proclaiming yourself as above it all only makes you a worse player in the long run. "Here though, you are completely wrong. There is a correct way to play and it keeps getting rediscovered as patches come out and people play the game. There are different strategies, builds, ect, but the basics are still the same, and the cheesers dont have to be that good at the basics to be successful. Also, saying "if this game went longer than 5 minutes I'd crush him" does make me a better player because if I played that person in a best of 3, best of 5, best of 7 whatever, I would win the series every time because I know the stupid gimmicky shit is coming after the first game, and most of these people quite obviously cant do anything else but their cheese because when you stop them it becomes a massacre. Then you go on to say I am somehow ignoring my weakness. Well instead of being an asshole (not sure if you were trying to be but you came across as such), how about you try to understand what I'm getting at. I am in no way ignoring that I need to get better at that stuff, I am just saying that if all I need to do in almost every ladder game I play is stop a some stupid cheese and then destroy the person, I am not going to play the game anymore because that is in no way fun and cant possibly be fun for anyone but people who cheese as well.
All in all I am just complaining about the idiots wasting their time playing the game without actually learning the game. It just doesnt make sense to me. In one regard it's similar to people boosting in a game like COD. Why the fuck even waste hours of your time playing the game if your not going to play it to get better at it and do things the correct way. Cheesing isnt a way to play, it's the wrong way to play, because eventually it wont work and you just wasted all that time and now you have to start back at square one. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and cheesing is the right way to play, and if it is, than no one would or should ever want to play it professionally because then it would be just two all in builds pitted against each other and every game would be 4 minutes long.
" @sixghost said:I'm not sure how I came off as an asshole by giving you honest advice. Anyway, the root of the problem isn't people cheesing, it's just a symptom of it. One of the most important skills you learn playing starcraft is scouting. Not only the basic stuff, like microing your first scout, holding xel towers and checking their ramp, but more advanced stuff, like gaining a clearer picture of what they are doing by process of elimination based on what you've scouted. If you weren't losing to cheeses early on due to bad scouting, you'd be losing later on due to bad scouting. And if that's not the case, then you just don't have a solid enough grasp on how to adjust your build order to be safer, or you don't have the micro to hold off the rushes." @DoctorWelch said:Just look at my other post, it's not really about me. I obviously have to get better, I am just complaining about the idiots wasting there time cheesing or doing the same gimmicky build for hours upon hours without actually getting better at the game.
Well, you have two choices. Either learn how to adjust your style to ladder play, or just play custom games with people who you know just want to play macro games. You just need to scout more and get better and playing safe while not overreacting. You obviously don't deal with cheese well, which isn't going to be magically fixed once you get into diamond. People cheese all the fucking time in diamond, but they also play macro games.There isn't a proper way to play the game, and just being able to say, "if this game went longer than 5 minutes I'd crush him" doesn't make you any better of a player than the person cheesing you. Just ignoring your weakness and proclaiming yourself as above it all only makes you a worse player in the long run. "Here though, you are completely wrong. There is a correct way to play and it keeps getting rediscovered as patches come out and people play the game. There are different strategies, builds, ect, but the basics are still the same, and the cheesers dont have to be that good at the basics to be successful. Also, saying "if this game went longer than 5 minutes I'd crush him" does make me a better player because if I played that person in a best of 3, best of 5, best of 7 whatever, I would win the series every time because I know the stupid gimmicky shit is coming after the first game, and most of these people quite obviously cant do anything else but their cheese because when you stop them it becomes a massacre. Then you go on to say I am somehow ignoring my weakness. Well instead of being an asshole (not sure if you were trying to be but you came across as such), how about you try to understand what I'm getting at. I am in no way ignoring that I need to get better at that stuff, I am just saying that if all I need to do in almost every ladder game I play is stop a some stupid cheese and then destroy the person, I am not going to play the game anymore because that is in no way fun and cant possibly be fun for anyone but people who cheese as well.
All in all I am just complaining about the idiots wasting their time playing the game without actually learning the game. It just doesnt make sense to me. In one regard it's similar to people boosting in a game like COD. Why the fuck even waste hours of your time playing the game if your not going to play it to get better at it and do things the correct way. Cheesing isnt a way to play, it's the wrong way to play, because eventually it wont work and you just wasted all that time and now you have to start back at square one. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and cheesing is the right way to play, and if it is, than no one would or should ever want to play it professionally because then it would be just two all in builds pitted against each other and every game would be 4 minutes long. "
To address your other points: I'm not sure what you mean when you say eventually the cheese will stop working. It's been more than 3 months since release, not even counting beta, and the same cheeses are still effective because they are strong builds that counter people who are greedy. In fact, I'd argue that you are playing the game just as wrong as the cheeser if you are the guy not taking the proper precautions to stop all the possible strategies that you haven't ruled out. I don't mean to judge you, but you really seem like someone who watches replays or vods of pro games, probably day9 too, and tries to emulate the way those guys play. But the thing you don't seem to understand is that those guys are able to use these greedy ass builds because they've practiced and practiced sniffing out and crushing the same cheeses that beat you. The reason you see less cheese the better you get is because, in general, it gets harder and harder to cheese people the better they are. You are just trying to jump immediately to the more advanced style of play without ever learning how to beat the things that allow them to play the way they do.
You'll never stop losing to cheese until you accept that it's a valid way to play the game, and take the appropriate steps to learning how to stop it. I got the shit cheesed out of me in every single matchup as zerg for the first couple months of the game, and now I'm way better off for it because I learned all the signs that something is up, and I'm not so stubborn that I won't adjust my build on the fly.
Just look at my other post, it's not really about me. I obviously have to get better, I am just complaining about the idiots wasting there time cheesing or doing the same gimmicky build for hours upon hours without actually getting better at the game.
There is a correct way to play
and the cheesers dont have to be that good at the basics to be successful.
Also, saying "if this game went longer than 5 minutes I'd crush him" does make me a better player because if I played that person in a best of 3, best of 5, best of 7 whatever, I would win the series every time
Then you go on to say I am somehow ignoring my weakness.
I am in no way ignoring that I need to get better at that stuff,
All in all I am just complaining about the idiots wasting their time playing the game without actually learning the game.
Why the fuck even waste hours of your time playing the game if your not going to play it to get better at it and do things the correct way.
Cheesing isnt a way to play, it's the wrong way to play, because eventually it wont work
I just want to emphasize these quotes, because this is the problem you're having. It's not the people cheesing or you losing to cheese. It's your conviction that you're a better player than all the cheesers, simply because you've decided that they're not playing the game right. If everyone just played the game by your rules, you would win alot more and the world would be fair and just again. It just doesn't work that way.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you need to realize that cheese is a part of the game and you'll need to deal with it. Getting cheesed is indeed your weakness and you need to do need to get better at dealing with cheese. You've got 2 choices. You can adjust your builds and learn on how to identify cheese, so you can deal with it. Or you can continue on as you're doing right now and ignore the problem, by simply declaring every cheeser a newbie and moving on.
Even people with solid basics can cheese you, that doesn't mean they're not playing the game right. A 6pool executed by a top level Zerg is going to require alot of skill, simply because they know it's a high risk/high reward strategy that requires their opponent not being aware of it. Even the best players need to deal with cheese and sometimes cheese themselves. (Fruitdealer 6-pooling oGsInca in GSL S1, for example.)
If you keep losing to it, it's up to you to step up on the scouting, learn to identify the signs and maybe even practice your micro, so that in the case you do get cheesed, you'll stand a better chance of beating it.
So basically, Senario 1: Gimmicky builds are a viable strategy at high levels and then there is no point in playing the game competitively because there is way way too much luck involved. Scenario 2: Gimmicky builds arent viable at high levels and then all these stupid people cheesing are just wasting their lives away doing something completely retarded.
That is basically what I am saying, and either way the game pisses me off either because the game is fucked, or the people are fucking annoying. Now, need I remind you that this has nothing to do with how good I am, I obviously know I need to get better at effectively dealing with this stuff either way, but as I said, that isnt the point. Basically, I dont understand the concept of going into a game planning on cheesing. What the hell are you trying to accomplish. Your not winning because you are good, you are winning because you cheesed. Like I said before, I think not being in bronze to start off has sorta hurt me because I never got to deal with people cheesing every single game. So now when it happens I just want to punch the dude in the face and then I start another game.
@Chokobo: I already said I know I need to get better at stopping it, I am just saying the people that do it are fucking retarded and it just gets annoying as hell when you get cannon rushed like a billion times in platinum and you know the only reason why that player is there is because he has perfected the cannon rush but nothing else.
@Thule: Like I said to the others, I have stated many many times I already know I have to get better at dealing with it. You say I have two choices? How about one choice, do both. Do exactly what I am doing now, know that all the stupid idiots cheesing suck at the game, and learn how to kick their asses. The last part though I have to completely disagree, if you are cheesing on ladder you are either one of two things, an asshole out to ruin peoples days for no apparent reason because cheesing on the ladder does nothing for you if you know how to play correctly, or a shitty player that can only cheese.
"@Thule: Like I said to the others, I have stated many many times I already know I have to get better at dealing with it. You say I have two choices? How about one choice, do both. Do exactly what I am doing now, know that all the stupid idiots cheesing suck at the game, and learn how to kick their asses. The last part though I have to completely disagree, if you are cheesing on ladder you are either one of two things, an asshole out to ruin peoples days for no apparent reason because cheesing on the ladder does nothing for you if you know how to play correctly, or a shitty player that can only cheese. "This just in: Fruitdealer is a stupid idiot that sucks at the game.
" @DoctorWelch said:This just in, he only did that because its was on Kulas Ravine, the stupidest map for Zerg that is basically insane if you actually try to play it straight up. Which is the reason why it isnt in the map pool. Way to actually know what you're talking about."@Thule: Like I said to the others, I have stated many many times I already know I have to get better at dealing with it. You say I have two choices? How about one choice, do both. Do exactly what I am doing now, know that all the stupid idiots cheesing suck at the game, and learn how to kick their asses. The last part though I have to completely disagree, if you are cheesing on ladder you are either one of two things, an asshole out to ruin peoples days for no apparent reason because cheesing on the ladder does nothing for you if you know how to play correctly, or a shitty player that can only cheese. "This just in: Fruitdealer is a stupid idiot that sucks at the game. "
" @StarvingGamer said:Are you seriously trying to argue that pros don't cheese?" @DoctorWelch said:This just in, he only did that because its was on Kulas Ravine, the stupidest map for Zerg that is basically insane if you actually try to play it straight up. Which is the reason why it isnt in the map pool. Way to actually know what you're talking about. ""@Thule: Like I said to the others, I have stated many many times I already know I have to get better at dealing with it. You say I have two choices? How about one choice, do both. Do exactly what I am doing now, know that all the stupid idiots cheesing suck at the game, and learn how to kick their asses. The last part though I have to completely disagree, if you are cheesing on ladder you are either one of two things, an asshole out to ruin peoples days for no apparent reason because cheesing on the ladder does nothing for you if you know how to play correctly, or a shitty player that can only cheese. "This just in: Fruitdealer is a stupid idiot that sucks at the game. "
" @DoctorWelch said:Um...this is what I said The last part though I have to completely disagree, if you are cheesing on ladder you are either one of two things, an asshole out to ruin peoples days for no apparent reason because cheesing on the ladder does nothing for you if you know how to play correctly, or a shitty player that can only cheese. "" @StarvingGamer said:Are you seriously trying to argue that pros don't cheese? "" @DoctorWelch said:This just in, he only did that because its was on Kulas Ravine, the stupidest map for Zerg that is basically insane if you actually try to play it straight up. Which is the reason why it isnt in the map pool. Way to actually know what you're talking about. ""@Thule: Like I said to the others, I have stated many many times I already know I have to get better at dealing with it. You say I have two choices? How about one choice, do both. Do exactly what I am doing now, know that all the stupid idiots cheesing suck at the game, and learn how to kick their asses. The last part though I have to completely disagree, if you are cheesing on ladder you are either one of two things, an asshole out to ruin peoples days for no apparent reason because cheesing on the ladder does nothing for you if you know how to play correctly, or a shitty player that can only cheese. "This just in: Fruitdealer is a stupid idiot that sucks at the game. "
I guess you think tournaments are the ladder. A tournament is completely different from practice on the ladder. In a tournament, if you are on a map or in a situation where you know your opponent is going to have the edge, doing some kind of all in gimmicky thing might be a good idea if you catch them off-guard and get an easy game. In the same vein, if a player just cheeses in a tournament even if they think they could win the game straight up, than they made a pretty stupid decision. Basically, by cheesing, you are admitting you dont like your chances playing straight up. So what I said stands, if you cheese on the ladder you are an idiot and a shitty player or simply a dick. Which is essentially my whole point, if two players of equal high level skill still think gimmicky play is a good option than the game needs to be tweaked because it isnt good enough to be played professionally like Brood War where cheesing a player you think you can beat straight up is a completely retarded decision.
Cheese beats Econ
Econ beats Standard
Standard beat Cheese
You only like to go Rock therefore anyone who goes Paper sucks?
" I think this discussion has run it's course. Just seeing the same arguments back and forth. Cheese complaint -> "dude, learn to deal with cheese" -> "I do need to get better at learning it, but [cheese complaint]" -> repeat. "My thoughts exactly. I wish people could understand the first time, but apparently they cant so the only way to learn is repetition. I just wanted to have a little old rant but no, people had to try to give me advice about something I already know, including yourself. So, way to contribute to your own annoyance.
@StarvingGamer said:
" @DoctorWelch: Cheese beats Econ Econ beats Standard Standard beat Cheese You only like to go Rock therefore anyone who goes Paper sucks? "Sounds like something a person who has never played Starcraft would say.
Your reasonably worded counterpoint has won me over, zounds!"@StarvingGamer said:
" @DoctorWelch: Cheese beats Econ Econ beats Standard Standard beat Cheese You only like to go Rock therefore anyone who goes Paper sucks? "Sounds like something a person who has never played Starcraft would say."
edit: Sorry for hijacking this thread with sarcasm
Fine, I tried making you see the error of your ways, but you obviously don't want to listen. You keep saying that you agree you need to get better at stopping cheese, but instead of actually wanting to get better, you just want to complain about it.
I suggest you only play custom games from now on and make a no-cheese gentlemen's agreement with your opponent at the start of the game.
" @DoctorWelch said:If by sarcasm you mean idiocy, than yes, you should be sorry."@StarvingGamer said:
" @DoctorWelch: Cheese beats Econ Econ beats Standard Standard beat Cheese You only like to go Rock therefore anyone who goes Paper sucks? "Sounds like something a-person-who-has-never-played-Starcraft would say." I'm sorry you cant comprehend sentences, read it like that and maybe you can make some sense of it.Your reasonably worded counterpoint has won me over, zounds! edit: Sorry for hijacking this thread with sarcasm "
@Thule said:
" @DoctorWelch: Fine, I tried making you see the error of your ways, but you obviously don't want to listen. You keep saying that you agree you need to get better at stopping cheese, but instead of actually wanting to get better, you just want to complain about it. I suggest you only play custom games from now on and make a no-cheese gentlemen's agreement with your opponent at the start of the game. "Um...error of what ways? There is no error in any of my ways. Also, this sentence literally make no sense: " You keep saying that you agree you need to get better at stopping cheese, but instead of actually wanting to get better, you just want to complain about it." I keep rereading it trying to understand how it makes any sense but it simply doesnt. You basically said "You keep saying that you agree you need to get better at stopping cheese, but instead of agreeing you need to get better at stopping cheese you are complaining about it." So if I am agreeing that I need to get better, it isnt possible for me not to be saying that at the same time. Also, of course I am going to complain about cheese, who the fuck wouldnt after loosing 12 games to it...its cheese and its fucking stupid. That doesnt mean I'm not going to get better at stopping it. The first post was just me venting, and then sixghost decided to act like a dick and give me some condescending advice that I didnt need and didnt ask for. Like I said, before, it all started with me saying that using Day 9's advice for "newbies" only works up to about platinum because you can no longer win with just good macro and well executed cheese is one of those reasons why. I never wanted it to turn into this tirade of idiocy and pointless arguing...but whadaya know, it's the GB forums.
Well no one seems to agree with what you're saying but heck if you're saying it, you must be right and everyone else is just an idiot that couldn't possibly hope to comprehend you huh. I think maybe you should lighten up a tad, everyone would be a little happier :D
I lose to Zerg sometimes if I didnt know he was downright massing mutalisks and only prepared for the standard 8 or so.
I lose to Terran sometimes because of fancy stuff like drops. I almost always have the superior tank-viking play.
I lose to Protoss if I dont end the game in the first 10 minutes and if I didnt scout his 4 warp gate. (Fuck protoss!)
@DoctorWelch said:
"Sounds like something a person who has never played Starcraft would say."Said the Platinum to the Diamond!
Ok seriously I'm done now, hahaha. Can't believe I didn't think of that one sooner.
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