A Look At Head Tracking With ArmA II

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#101 Posted by Vecta (167 posts) -
@LtColJaxson said:
" I downloaded the demo of this game, and the AI really sucks. The enemy AI shoots you from miles away with Ak's. Then you can spawn as a spectator bird and see where they shot you from, and you can't even see where you were. It would have been impossible for them to shoot you. I have max video settings too, max draw distance. I doubt stupid AI is a bug, it's just stupid AI and they won't fix it with a patch. "
Standard enemy rifleman have set engagement range of 500m in the game, meaning they wont shoot at you until they get within that range unless shot upon first. Thats assuming they even see you. And Im guessing they shot you at around 200-300m, which is the normal range you would engage an enemy in (with the intent to actually score a hit) in real life as usually all Assualt Rifles sights are clocked in at 300m's. 

So no the AI doesnt have miracle aim.
#102 Posted by MeatSim (10739 posts) -

Video Games are serious business! 

#103 Posted by SuperfluousMoniker (2906 posts) -

Futures so bright I gotta wear a cap with tracking equipment on it.

#104 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -
@SuperfluousMoniker said:
" Futures so bright I gotta wear a cap with tracking equipment on it. "
I'm quite sure, that Natal will be able to do, what TrackIR does for ArmA 2, which is quite amazing. No tracking equipment needed. Zero hassle.

Hopefully, we will soon see, what the dev-community comes up with for  'core' games, in terms of layering Natal controls on-top of standard gamepad controls. The added 'Head Control' over the ingame camera seems to be beneficial to any FPS game, as well as all kinds of simulations. I believe the potential of Natal, for improving 'core' gaming experiences, is being extremly under-estimated by the gaming public, due to the lack of common sense and imagination.

Also, Microsoft did a piss-poor job of selling Natal to the 'core' audience, by promoting it only for 'hands-free' gaming. Which is clearly selling it short. Stupid MS!
#105 Posted by zzZBibboZzz (147 posts) -

i want a game where you just fly a jet plane upside down and look up at the ground....

#106 Posted by BloodAndBeer (12 posts) -
@Jimbo: I mean it sounds cool, I'm just a console gamer....I'd love to see NATAL do something like this for future FPS games. If you could do this in the next CoD or Halo Reach....that would be sick...
#107 Posted by End_Boss (3220 posts) -

See, the problem with this is, while I'm turning my head to make my character look left or right, the monitor is getting closer and closer to the extremes of my own view. I can't see how this is practical.

#108 Edited by Al3xand3r (7574 posts) -

as told/shown, it's much like mouse movements are dependant on the sensitivity, so you only move your mouse a little yet can turn a circle around yourself in a game. Similarly, turning your head a little turns the view further so you don't have to strain yourself to look left/right.

#109 Posted by LtColJaxson (1137 posts) -
@Vecta said:
" @LtColJaxson said:
" I downloaded the demo of this game, and the AI really sucks. The enemy AI shoots you from miles away with Ak's. Then you can spawn as a spectator bird and see where they shot you from, and you can't even see where you were. It would have been impossible for them to shoot you. I have max video settings too, max draw distance. I doubt stupid AI is a bug, it's just stupid AI and they won't fix it with a patch. "
Standard enemy rifleman have set engagement range of 500m in the game, meaning they wont shoot at you until they get within that range unless shot upon first. Thats assuming they even see you. And Im guessing they shot you at around 200-300m, which is the normal range you would engage an enemy in (with the intent to actually score a hit) in real life as usually all Assualt Rifles sights are clocked in at 300m's.  So no the AI doesnt have miracle aim. "

Doesn't really matter, if I can't see where I was with max view distance at their viewpoint - they shouldn't be able to see me either. The graphics are barely even able to handle the characters being that far away and still being able to see them properly... so you shouldn't even be able to hit anything at that distance for the game. When I was a spectator after dying, most of the AI was lying down in the middle of the road or running away from the action. Occasionally they would run in circles before going prone. They don't even take cover, they just stand right out in the open waiting to be shot.

Say what you will, but the AI is just plain stupid. 
Online
#110 Edited by Al3xand3r (7574 posts) -

They were just waiting to get shot, yet they owned you? And as said before, you don't shoot ppl 5ft in front of you here. Most of the time you'll be shooting at what appears to be dots (if you're shooting at all actually, directing your units and calling air or artillery strikes can be more important)... Don't forget to aim while calculating your bullet drop as well, especially if you're using a sniper rifle for longer distances. Distances are more realistic than in other games too, which is why your 500m appeared like "miles" >_>

And cover isn't always the priority, concealment is as well, heck you said you didn't see them before they shot you, so they acted pretty effectively.

#111 Posted by AlexMarra (310 posts) -

If only I had a TV which wrapped around my head.

#112 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

It's a know issue of ArmA 2, that the AI doesn't handle complex situations well. The more goes on at the same time, the more confused the AI gets. It works well for smaller scale mission, like the 7 'hop-in-and-play' maps. ArmA 2 has a very ambitious AI, which is all about realtime responses to your actions. It's not scripted, like in most other games. Bohemia didn't achieve their lofty goal... yet.

I am sure, Bohemia, as well as the modder community, are working on this issue. But for now, the AI is broken for large scale simulations. So either you stick with smaller scale simulations, or you have to live with the AI failing regulary and breaking the immersion. I don't know how good or bad the AI works for multiplayer modes like 'Warfare', but there are multiplayer modes available, that don't rely on AI, which should be very enjoyable. So the best way, to play this game, is to stick with what works and hope that the broken stuff gets fixed by a future patch.

For who is into mil-sims, there is good fun to be had with ArmA 2. There seems to be quite a hardcore following of players and modders. So it sure has a future. But as of now, various elements of the game don't work properly. That's a fact, you will have to deal with, if you want to enjoy this game.

#113 Posted by Jimbo (9769 posts) -

You've got it to work now then?  Or is this more hearsay passed off as 'fact'?

#114 Posted by GameLoiterer (2 posts) -
@BloodAndBeer:  I've had a TrackIR Pro 4 since 2005, the thing works great in any driving/flight game.  It's been around for years and works with a bunch of games, never thought to use it in something like this game though.
#115 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@ Jimbo

I feel confident of my knowledge about ArmA 2. I will keep an eye on this game, as I have for quite some time now. I have spent several hours of research on this game, since it would require me to upgrade my gfx-card, to play it at my native resolution and high quality settings.

So that's the consensus I gathered from the many reviews and user impressions about the AI in ArmA 2 thus far. You might think, a giantbomb user would appreciate my sharing the info.

#116 Edited by TwoOneFive (9459 posts) -

dude thats awesome!!

natal better fuckin do this for fps games
#117 Posted by theMcNasty (741 posts) -

I'm sure this will be swiftly integrated into some sort of porn-related software.  Just like all technology.

#118 Edited by SoFX (14 posts) -

Ive been using head tracking software to play IL-2 Sturmovik with my logitech web cam and a mini flashlight attached to my hat for about 2 years now. It allows me to have a horizontal and vertical pan and tilt with just one track point. Adding more points of light would be as simple as attaching more lights or LEDs (LEDs work better.) More lights means you can add more complex twist, lean movements.

The key to all this, is that I haven't paid for a thing (besides the web cam and game.) The software I am using is FreeTrack.
This allows for the same amount of precision as the pay to have version, works exactly the same, but you don't have to worry about paying.
Link to the FreeTrack website:
http://www.free-track.net/english/


Reading the comments, I see people don't get how it works. Trying it for yourself would be the easiest way of seeing what this does, but a quick rundown follows:

Your web cam must be set to see only infrared light. This isn't hard, you just have to set the contrast all the way up so that all you can see is the single dot from your light (or all the dots if you are using multiple track points) As a side note, this is how the Wii tracks your curson on screen as well, but its reversed. You are holding the camera in the wiimote, and the sensor bar on your TV are the infared lights.

I then bent a metal coathanger into shape to make a clip, and stuck the mini-flashlight under the clip.) This clip is on the front of a ballcap, and now does not move unless I move my head.
When I look to the left, the dot moves left on screen, and moves the head of your character to the left. The effect is amplified so you dont have to turn your head very much to look all the way around behind you.

Using FreeTrack (or TrackIR if you are a sucker and like paying big bucks for no reason) really does improve games that have this feature but its definitely a bit of work getting it set up and adjusted for your liking. Everything about it is adjustable and customizable. If you dont like the sensitivity, turn it up or down. The reason this is better than mouselook is that it allows you to keep one hand on the throttle(or flaps or other functions) and the other hand on the flightstick and still maintain your ability to see around you like you normally would.

People that say this is too complicated must have problems walking down the sidewalk and looking to the left or right to see cars in real life, because using head tracking is the most natural way to look around in a game so far.

#119 Edited by Al3xand3r (7574 posts) -

Sounds like FaceApi except it needs the led(s). I'm sure that doesn't allow the same precision as what's seen here. How can it possibly differentiate a movement to the left from a tilt to the left and a sideways tilt to the left, if all it tracks is a light source's movement? Now if you have two light sources, perhaps it can understand tilts by seeing the relation of the two lights to each other, their distance, etc, but does the software support that? Faceapi seems superior since it tracks the basic facial features but it doesn't seem end-user friendly just yet.

Edit: Checked their website, it does have support for that kind of tracking, but I don't have face-leds for all that :P

#120 Posted by SoFX (14 posts) -
@Al3xand3r said:
" Sounds like FaceApi except it needs the led(s). I'm sure that doesn't allow the same precision as what's seen here. How can it possibly differentiate a movement to the left from a tilt to the left and a sideways tilt to the left, if all it tracks is a light source's movement? Now if you have two light sources, perhaps it can understand tilts by seeing the relation of the two lights to each other, their distance, etc, but does the software support that? Faceapi seems superior since it tracks the basic facial features but it doesn't seem end-user friendly just yet.Edit: Checked their website, it does have support for that kind of tracking, but I don't have face-leds for all that :P "

You may add multiple light sources. I am using a single light and it allows for pan and tilt at varying degrees of precision. It can be adjusted via a curve within the program if you want more precision in certain parts of the pan/tilt (at center for example)

2 lights would allow for other functions, and 3 and 4 lights would allow for all the functions of head movement. Looking left to right, up to down. Moving your head up and down or left and right (like strafe) tilting your head, and of course zooming in and out.

#121 Edited by Al3xand3r (7574 posts) -

That's pretty cool. I see ARMA1 worked with it, I imagine someone will make the sequel work too. I'd try it if I had a game with such support I play a lot atm but I don't. Maybe when the Battlefield 2 patch goes out of beta.

#122 Posted by TwoOneFive (9459 posts) -

this is for people who play games too much

#123 Posted by Kohe321 (3522 posts) -

Pretty cool, actually.

#124 Edited by MrKlorox (11198 posts) -
@BloodAndBeer said:
" @MrKlorox:  To me it just seems like an expensive piece of hardware that you'd only get benefit out from 1-2 games... "
Huh? Did you think I was defending this absurdly limited device? I only said GB should order one to use in videos to make us laugh.

I was however defending tactile transducers (buttkicker/bass shakers) and will do so for the rest of my days. And they're not limited to games (well, the shittily underpreforming and overly expensive amBX "system" is). If I could use it while listening to music on the toilet I would... but then I would be afraid of splashing nasty water on my buttocks during the ultra-low sounds... perhaps if they made a pair of house slippers that worked similarly.
#125 Posted by Jayzilla (2554 posts) -

i love all the comments about having to look away from the screen when using this lol. guys, learn to watch the videos without commenting.

#126 Posted by Vecta (167 posts) -
@LtColJaxson said:
" @Vecta said:
" @LtColJaxson said:
" I downloaded the demo of this game, and the AI really sucks. The enemy AI shoots you from miles away with Ak's. Then you can spawn as a spectator bird and see where they shot you from, and you can't even see where you were. It would have been impossible for them to shoot you. I have max video settings too, max draw distance. I doubt stupid AI is a bug, it's just stupid AI and they won't fix it with a patch. "
Standard enemy rifleman have set engagement range of 500m in the game, meaning they wont shoot at you until they get within that range unless shot upon first. Thats assuming they even see you. And Im guessing they shot you at around 200-300m, which is the normal range you would engage an enemy in (with the intent to actually score a hit) in real life as usually all Assualt Rifles sights are clocked in at 300m's.  So no the AI doesnt have miracle aim. "
Doesn't really matter, if I can't see where I was with max view distance at their viewpoint - they shouldn't be able to see me either. The graphics are barely even able to handle the characters being that far away and still being able to see them properly... so you shouldn't even be able to hit anything at that distance for the game. When I was a spectator after dying, most of the AI was lying down in the middle of the road or running away from the action. Occasionally they would run in circles before going prone. They don't even take cover, they just stand right out in the open waiting to be shot.Say what you will, but the AI is just plain stupid.  "
I told you, the Riflemen unit have a set engagement range of 500m meaning they wont try to shoot and hit you untill they are under 500m away. The default view distance is set at 1600m...  It just sounds like you try to move to fast without bothering to survey your surroundings.

#127 Posted by Media_Master (3283 posts) -

I don't think I need that

#128 Posted by LtColJaxson (1137 posts) -
@Vecta said:
" @LtColJaxson said:
" @Vecta said:
" @LtColJaxson said:
" I downloaded the demo of this game, and the AI really sucks. The enemy AI shoots you from miles away with Ak's. Then you can spawn as a spectator bird and see where they shot you from, and you can't even see where you were. It would have been impossible for them to shoot you. I have max video settings too, max draw distance. I doubt stupid AI is a bug, it's just stupid AI and they won't fix it with a patch. "
Standard enemy rifleman have set engagement range of 500m in the game, meaning they wont shoot at you until they get within that range unless shot upon first. Thats assuming they even see you. And Im guessing they shot you at around 200-300m, which is the normal range you would engage an enemy in (with the intent to actually score a hit) in real life as usually all Assualt Rifles sights are clocked in at 300m's.  So no the AI doesnt have miracle aim. "
Doesn't really matter, if I can't see where I was with max view distance at their viewpoint - they shouldn't be able to see me either. The graphics are barely even able to handle the characters being that far away and still being able to see them properly... so you shouldn't even be able to hit anything at that distance for the game. When I was a spectator after dying, most of the AI was lying down in the middle of the road or running away from the action. Occasionally they would run in circles before going prone. They don't even take cover, they just stand right out in the open waiting to be shot.Say what you will, but the AI is just plain stupid.  "
I told you, the Riflemen unit have a set engagement range of 500m meaning they wont try to shoot and hit you untill they are under 500m away. The default view distance is set at 1600m...  It just sounds like you try to move to fast without bothering to survey your surroundings. "

No, what I am saying... is that I have the view distance at the maximum. I guess the 1600 meter's as you said. I have every video setting at max. When the enemies are shooting at me, they barely have any texture and look like crap from the distance they shoot at. I can barely see them, and my monitor is 1600x1050. I move slowly enough, but when you let off one shot then the whole village flows in on you which I guess makes somewhat sense - but the AI is incredibly stupid in doing so. They never take cover behind anything. They run out into the open even when they know exactly where you are. Very seldom do they ever try to utilize any good flanking.

The AI is stupid, just very buggy and not well designed. It was the same with ARMA 1 as well.
Online
#129 Posted by Vigorousjammer (2472 posts) -

we need super-wide curvy monitors now... like somebody before me said... once you turn your head, you're not looking at your monitor anymore...
This stuff is all cool... but I think it'd be more useful if there's a full half-circle monitor in development... or maybe even a full 360 degree monitor that you could look around with...

of course, that that point, I'm not sure if we'd even need head tracking...

#130 Posted by mrmud (26 posts) -
@Lyphen said:
"

I don't get it. How is this more effective than...well...mouse look? Or Q/E leaning?

But, whatever. Obviously it's meant for the hardcore - the guys all hooked up with the Philips amBX and Novint Falcon. I'm not part of that market.

"
Its best use is when flying because then you dont really have the option to move your viewpoint with the mouse and being able to look around is invaluable.

#131 Edited by fallen_elite (380 posts) -
@Vigorousjammer said:
" we need super-wide curvy monitors now... like somebody before me said... once you turn your head, you're not looking at your monitor anymore...This stuff is all cool... but I think it'd be more useful if there's a full half-circle monitor in development... or maybe even a full 360 degree
monitor that you could look around with...of course, that that point, I'm not sure if we'd even need head tracking... "





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