Ads, Games, and the Growing Complexity of Xbox Live

@cancerdancer said:

"and are often part part of contrats between Microsoft"

PROOF READ YOUR SHIT.

This, among several other examples pointed out. Are you a professional or not? You're paid to be a writer, act like it. These errors don't happen when the other guys write articles, but happen very frequently in yours. No excuse. The fu**ing huge tile of the article has a spelling error!

Also, whine much? Are you a PR rep for Mark of the Ninja or what?

What about the fact that people pay for Xbox Live Gold and still get adverts?

But who actually navigates to the games tab to learn about new content on Xbox Live? I don’t. Do you?

See, that's what surprises me. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I just got into the habit of clicking over to games and checking the "new releases" section. It's just muscle memory for me at this point. I find it strange that others, particularly other (ugh) "hardcore" gamers don't do the same.

If I see an add for something cool, that's great, but I feel like as someone who is looking for new games to play, it's at least partially my responsibility to go looking for them.

It's no good for me to walk into a grocery store and get mad if I can't immediately see the milk.

Its no secret that all those ads are paid for, and regardless if M$ is publishing a game, it wont guarantee it gets front page.

Patrick mentioned on the Bombcast the same thought he expressed in his article--that games sell best on their first day of release. I think this rule applies when the game is advertised, but if an unadvertised game is released, does it really hold true then that the first day of release is its most important? Mark of the Ninja's most successful day could very well have been the day of its first advertisement appearing on Xbox Live, as the game could have gone unnoticed before then.

The main thing I got out of this article is maybe Brad of Jeff should proofread Patricks writing.

@BR4DL3I9H: The main thing is that I did indeed see the advertisement on the front page of XBL. I don't see what Patty's issue is. So what if it was later? Like you said, nobody comes to gaming sites or listens to podcasts so whatever day the XBL ad goes live will be the "launch" day for the tens of millions of people who aren't on gaming sites. It's not like the XBL ad says, "PS: this game is older than other stuff."

I think complaints that MS doesn't elevate every single game on the service to god-like status is a weak one, especially when it's used for a game that got a front page ad. What more do folk want? Unskippable video ads every time they load up the dashboard?

@sickVisionz said:

Besides, I saw the advertisement... then I heard about it on Weekend Confirmed, then Gamers With Jobs, then IGN, then Gamespot, then etc, etc, etc. I think it's a case of MS realizing that there are multiple ways for a game to get out there and they don't need to plaster every facet of the interface to cover every single release.

You must realise that dedicated gamers, like yourself and I, are in the minority when it actually comes to high sales figures with games. More so with downloadable games too. Most 'gamers' don't frequently visit gaming websites, listen to gaming podcasts and do in-depth research when a new game is due to be released. I would wager that aside from the main page there are a healthy number of people who don't go into the stores to search for games. Heck, I know a few 'harcore' gamers who don't even bother to look at downloadable sections at all, so even a basic ad on the front page will enhance the number of downloads sold.

Just as an aside, a friend of mine who is probably the most invested gamer that I know didn't even realise that Journey came out when it was released, but not because the PS store didn't advertise it enough, but that he simply just doesn't care, however, when castle crashers first came out he saw it advertised on the Xbox dashboard and bought it with no previous intentions. My point is, product positioning is but one part of a successful marketing plan, but it's still a necessary and important factor that plays a significant role.

I think the bigger issue here is how damn slow and clunky the dashboard has gotten. I honestly don't care which specific ads Microsoft shoves in my face- I ignore them all.

I think people expect too much of Microsoft. First there are complaints that every two bit homebrew indie game isn't spotlighted on the front page of the dashboard and now it's that every XBLA game isn't plastered on the front page of the Dashboard. They'd run out of space if they put everything up there.

Besides, I saw the advertisement... then I heard about it on Weekend Confirmed, then Gamers With Jobs, then IGN, then Gamespot, then etc, etc, etc. I think it's a case of MS realizing that there are multiple ways for a game to get out there and they don't need to plaster every facet of the interface to cover every single release.

I check the games tab every time I turn on my 360. I don't, however, check the videos or music tabs. Because I mainly use my 360 for gaming.

I really how people cdan still be complaining about the 360 UI. When you learn where things are it's so simple to use.

I see indie games a bit like indie music. The diamonds in the rough will come out to light eventually. I'm a bit tired of hearing both journalists and game developers bashing on the services that put out their games to the public. Not every great game needs to be a commercial success. Patrick, as long as you will see games as a "product of rentability" and not a work of art, you will always be disapointed in this side of buisness... From Microsoft, sony, steam etc etc. They will all, eventually, let you down. What won't are the games created by passionnate people. I'd say that 95% of the best music will never be listend by 95% of the population. And you know what. That's totally fine. As the game industry grows, it becomes impossible to know and be aware of all the game that comes out. And it will get harder to play them all too. It's up to site like yours and community like ours to share that knowledge and be part of what I could call : a living and breathing indie game world.

Don't write an article to whine about a service that almost created indie gaming, but instead write another article on how you believe Mark of the Ninja is the best thing you've played this year.

@InsidiousTuna said:

@Dezztroy: That's because all Steam has are games. What about in 5-10 years when you're buying television shows off of your Steam Box?

Your computer IS your Steam Box. You can already buy television shows on it. This is irrelevant.

Right now, navigating the Xbox 360 is one of the worst experiences I can think so. I hate it so much, it turns me off turning on my 360. It's poorly thought out, but still usable if it weren't for the messed up order everything seems to be in. I have had serious issues finding games at times and the adverts... don't get me started on the ads. Stopped paying for Xbox Live Gold a few months back and I wish I'd done it sooner. Hell! I even pay for Gold if it meant removing adverts (which in itself is a crappy practice I know, but I hate the ads so much). It's not like there ads I want to look at or relate to me, I'd accept them if they were game related or informed of something I might be interested in, but no. Can't help but sense that if Microsoft don't get their act together for the next console, they might find themselves slipping back.

Not saying PSN is much better, but least the subscription is better value by miles and the interface works, it's not great but it works. I'd hate to be game developer and see my game (which I'd worked so hard on for months/years) to be poorly treated by Microsoft... must suck balls.

I don't find this to be so much of an issue in the UK. We get rotating slides on the big square in the middle and generally covers a game and the big thing in entertainment for that week. However I do always navigate to the Games tab to see what's what's for that week. As I do know Microsoft can't cover EVERYTHING.. I think a good solution would be to have a slide dedicated to each tab on the front page that's scrolls.. Then showing you most things. But this will never change as Microsoft for years have been pushing digital entertainment. Mr Gates himself said he saw the future in digital downloads/streams for movies. So Microsoft need to build a brand imagine doing this and so Games will always take back burner on the system as they push for the all in one entertainment/tv box

I actually browse the games tab every Wednesday to see what's new. But only because I know that is the only way i will see it.

Ive disconnected from the 360 and 360 dashboard for the past year or so. But admittedly I haven't stayed with it either. PC gaming....Still last time I saw it it was horribly screwed up. Just really unbelievably terrible presentation.

Halo 4. ..maybe?

This is the most toothless and bland editorial I think I have ever read.

Lol, more than anything it probably was simply cue'd up for front page, and it just takes that long to go through the system.

Its one thing if this was a kick starter campaign where every day counts, but if it finally shows up a day later on the front page, then well, its still on the front page. news must be slow at ol GB, or Patty is just a bit of an alarmist.

also when I want to play games,(even when I have a new game in the tray) I always go to the games tab to see what new demos are out. so idea where you got that idea.

I use the games tab to find new games. I don't know why games journalists think that its impossible to navigate to where the new games are. You just go under the games tab then look under new games. Also TV and video games are two totally different mediums. Saying that putting a game out on Friday does not equal a death sentence. Most people work during the week and don't have time to play any games until the weekend. Also if you want to compare unrelated mediums you could use movies and say its the best day to release a new game. I love your articles Scoops but Idk about this one.

Can't stand the new "Metro' UI for XBox360. After M$ changed it to Metro, I changed my 360 so it starts the game, and not the UI first, so I no longer see ANYTHING unless 'I" want to see it.

Bad Klepek. "Build momentum forward" sounds like horrible marketing drivel. Are you auditioning for a PR job? And these process stories are pretty shitty. They have nothing to do with what's really interesting about video games.

Another way that Klepek doesn't really fit into the Bomb Crew.

@Jamesesdad: Again agree to disagree, sir. You definitely are not a non-fanboy, you already coloured yourself as biased by the $ in MS, and .

I have all the systems too (two 360s, PS3, Wii, DS, 3DS, PSP, PC, Mac, etc), and choose to pay for the best services for my dollar, so I don't feel fleeced at all. I get the most out of my money, PS+ is just not worth MY money, you can do what you like with yours I don't care. I do like Steam but the argument was for comparing paid premium online services on game consoles.

I just expressed my opinion that GB does not have a dissenting opinion to Patrick's current tirade against XBL (ads, indie games, & fees) and his push for PS+ as a equivalent service worth comparing. I don't think it is after my 3 months of PS+ experience (that was gifted to me) and my +7 years with XBL the services don't compare, and it just lead to podcasts & articles with no debate on the subject. There are a lot of people like me are willing to pay for a good secure reliable service like XBL (remember the PSN downtime and stolen credit cards, I do and the hassle it caused me) and feel that it is a valuable, not because there is no alternative but because it is worth the money, so there must be a counter point to his. I would have liked a discussion on it.

And yes it is worth paying for well maintained publicly owned private courts at my local municipal community centre which don't have any of those annoying things you describe.

You will be the last person I'll reply to in this post as this is just sad to see that only Sony & Steam fanboys want to reply back spouting platform propaganda. At least I can be proud that the fools who did reply created accounts (1 post really, lol) just to reply back to little old me. Cool story bro.

OK the beta dash has a new layout and lets just say there was more space for crap including ads and mark of the ninja was shown for at least a week as a icon on the home and game screen. when it was working right and then that bug was fixed after we bitched about it. oh and everybody in the beta or alpha testing has already bitched about the ads and still bitch at every test dashboard they do not go away they do somethings we ask but they will not get rid of this crap.

If you thought it was bad before we bitched you should have seen it before it was all ads and they took the biggist spaces.

When the update hits the xbox you will have more room for ADS and non ads on the screen and the xbox live game of the week is shown most of the time.

Also the games tab is not burried anymore it is closer to the home screen and it is bigger.

my braking of the NDA is over.

The apple fan boy should be in the beta I thought that was his job......OH wait it's to play and look at the crap nobody cares about like what games are on apple crap and macs... he must have been distracted by the over priced iphone 5 crap that has no real games on it and forgot to have microsoft update his xbox ....never mind

he Is is complaining about a Dashboard layout that is going away very soon Oh i fell sad console noobs have to put up with that windows 8 metro crap and do not have a choice I would hate to be you.

@jozzy said:

Not sure if anyone mentioned it already, but I think the point this article tries to make is false. It basically says two things:

* Games sell best on the first day of release

* The game needs to be put to the forefront of the dashboard on release day to sell well

But think about it, why does the game sell best on the first day. It is because people already know a game is coming out on that day and want to buy it. To these people an ad on the homepage of the dash has no added value, they already know what they want and they go for it.

For people that don't know the game is out if makes no difference whatsoever. If they see it on the dash a week later they are still as likely to buy or not buy it as if they see it on the dash on release date. They don't even know or care about the release date.

So basically, I don't think it really matters if they put an ad on the home of the dash on release date or a week later.

EDIT: It might even be a positive, because the game gets another attention boost after release.

This article also assumes advertising games on the dashboard is actually effective.

Agree 100% but as long as those ads are making Microsoft money, they're not going away.

Scrounging after extra ad money from Lynx, Pepsi, Sky and so on instead of promoting key Microsoft titles is a bit ridiculous when you realise they're one of the richest and most powerful companies in the world today.

Not sure if anyone mentioned it already, but I think the point this article tries to make is false. It basically says two things:

* Games sell best on the first day of release

* The game needs to be put to the forefront of the dashboard on release day to sell well

But think about it, why does the game sell best on the first day. It is because people already know a game is coming out on that day and want to buy it. To these people an ad on the homepage of the dash has no added value, they already know what they want and they go for it.

For people that don't know the game is out if makes no difference whatsoever. If they see it on the dash a week later they are still as likely to buy or not buy it as if they see it on the dash on release date. They don't even know or care about the release date.

So basically, I don't think it really matters if they put an ad on the home of the dash on release date or a week later.

EDIT: It might even be a positive, because the game gets another attention boost after release.

@bkfountain said:

The 360 has a great selection of games on XBLA, they just need a way to highlight them better. That's why shutting down the Inside Xbox stuff was crazy. It shouldn't be too expensive to have a few people on staff contribute videos for the purpose of highlighting releases for the community.

What's really crazy is that people have to rely on a website like MajorNelson's to know what's coming up on XBL. Why can't they just put exactly the same information in a similar format on XBL? Too easy I guess...

I've been in the beta for the dashboard for a while. I think XBL sucks pretty hardcore now. I'm getting more ads, even on the starting page, and the stuff I already pay for is behind a pay wall.

I don't see the issue here. They are just ads. Its not like you are forced to watch them before you buy or play a game.

I check the games tab every day for new content

stop making assumptions, because you know what they say about them

Nice piece Patrick.

The one thing that bugs me to no end is that I'm paying for Xbox Live (at $9.99 a month) and I still see adds.

@Stache said:

Mark of the Ninja has been getting PLENTYof advertising on the Dashboard the past week. Not sure what your complaint is here.

Good on Microsoft should for attempting though.

I wonder if it's due to the backlash though. Even the game's dev posted on GAF about the lack of marketing the first few days after it released. Maybe MS is just slow as hell as a publisher, at least they didn't botch the release by neglecting to check the trademark status of the game's name. It's just another thing in the basket of bullshit that's been pushing devs to complain about moving to other platforms lately.

The 360 has a great selection of games on XBLA, they just need a way to highlight them better. That's why shutting down the Inside Xbox stuff was crazy. It shouldn't be too expensive to have a few people on staff contribute videos for the purpose of highlighting releases for the community.

With the advantage that the PC has growing leaps and bounds in the last few years, I've found the time between uses of my 360 to be increasing. That does also have to do with the cumulative experience as much as it does the growing graphical advantage of the PC. The dashboard has grown into a mess of targeted advertising that is an obstacle to navigate to get to the content that I already know I want rather than a place I go to be informed.

@GrandHarrier said:

When I turn my PS3 on I don't see jack shit for anything. Where is the rage about that?

I think you need to make sure you turn on your PS3 with your eyes open.

Mark of the Ninja has been getting PLENTYof advertising on the Dashboard the past week. Not sure what your complaint is here.

Good on Microsoft should for attempting though.

In the TV world, having a show on Friday night is a death sentence, as many consumers are out enjoying the weekend.

No Patrick. In the TV world, not saving someone after it rains a couple of days and the fog rolls in is a death sentence. Get with it!

When I turn my PS3 on I don't see jack shit for anything. Where is the rage about that?

An equally important tool for money and power: Notch's twitter account.

@starfurydyson

You sound like such an Xbox fanboy, it's kind of sad how vigorously you defend a company who has so thoroughly fleeced you. The fact of the matter is something like 90% of modern multiplayer games are in fact peer based (players connect directly to each other with one player acting as the host), and if servers are used it's solely for stat tracking, and matchmaking. Furthermore these servers are provided by the devs/pubs NOT microsoft. Microsoft servers are used for xblm, friends list/chat, achievement stats, and the occasional patch or update. The bandwidth on these features is minimal at best, and would absolutely be covered by the 40,000$ ms charges per add on the dashboard. In essence m$ is charging you 60$ a year to open some ports on your Xbox to allow you to connect to other users. The ONLY feature Xbox live has that Sony doesn't offer 100% free of charge would be cross game voice chat, which isn't worth an extra 60$ a year. The core of your argument that ps isn't competing is laughable considering they offer almost identical functionality for free, plus services Xbox doesn't provide if you chose to subscribe.

You see, from a non fanboy/pro consumer point of view (I own Xbox, ps3, wii, and a gaming pc) playstation plus is a service that actually offers value to the consumer. Free games (sure they are rentals but you get them for over a month which is plenty of time to play through completion), cloud saves, and fairly substantial discounts across most titles. Those features, stacked with free online multiplayer, access to Netflix without paying for plus, and a user interface not plastered with adds makes the psn wholly more appealing. I can enjoy my ps3 to the fullest without being roped in to their subscription service, and bombarded with adds regardless of being a premium member. But if I want to subscribe, it offers way more value for my 50$ than what I get for 60$ on xbl.

As for your tennis court analogy, is it really worth paying a premium to use a private court where you are forced into playing with screaming 12 year olds, and the worst bigots and morons the world over???

I should note, i don't subscribe to either xbl or ps+, because honestly steam makes both services look like absolute shit in direct comparison. Although I have used xbl on and off since its inception, I'll likely never subscribe again.

I wonder what the difference is between how microsoft does it and how Valve operates the store page on steam.

Of course I use the games tab to find games.

Great article Patrick!

I still can't find the RE6 demo on XBL. I click the link to take me to the demo and nothing is there, i then try and search new releases and the demo isn't there either. I finally just bing searched (skin crawls) RE6 and still couldn't find it.

Edit: figured it out, my account slipped to silver and i have to wait a week before being allowed access to the demo........*boots up PS3* waiting is for suckaz

I use the games tab to find new games...cause thats what its there for.

@starfurydysan: I'll respect that, you're certainly polite enough there's absolutely no reason for me to lay into you or some other internet trope, I kinda wish we weren't disagreeing about simple factual items (EA pulling down servers and/or charging for servers wouldn't happen if they weren't footing the bill for them, and similarly things like Virtua Fighter 5 were free games on PS+ on the date of their release.)

Early adopters have paid $750 for the system that had the highest failure rate of any system in gaming history (as far as I know.) It really makes me feel like people are getting taken advantage of... bums me out.

MS's shift away from gaming is pushing me away from them. I don't care about another Halo or Gears. I would care about interesting XBLA titles, but they bury them menus deep in the fucked up games marketplace. The dashboard is bad enough, but MS doesn't do shit to promote most of the great games on XBLA, as you pretty much have to already know on your own what's coming out.

There's a dashboard app called Sales & Specials+ to highlight sales on content, since the dashboard is too cluttered and shitty to convey that information another way. MS even shut down the Inside Xbox video stuff that could have been used to promote upcoming games to the userbase, those videos were also buried in the dashboard revision. I feel that MS will only continue to shove indie devs to other platforms like Steam.

As for ads, if MS is going to continue going heavy, I wish they would at least cater them to you. I've never once bought any movies on Live, and I never will. As it is now, the dashboard is a cluttered mess with the broadest spectrum of ads they could sign. It's like going to the mailbox.

Xbox Live does have a games tab. I get what the article is saying but people looking for a game to play are more than welcome to visit that tab. Most of the time the latest games are there.

I more worried about Microsoft continuing to charge $60 for the service, offering minimal value (in comparison to similar services) and STILL being heavy on advertisements for XBL Gold.

Yeah, this was a tough one to read.