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Eight Women, Eight Responses, and One Dead Island Riptide Statue

A collection of reactions to last week's questionable marketing tactic from a variety of women in the video game industry.

No Caption Provided

Deep Silver likely did not anticipate the intense reaction to its UK-specific Zombie Bait bundle for Dead Island Riptide when it was announced last week. The news came alongside other bundles for the sequel, but the Zombie Bait bundle received attention for a statue of a torn apart woman that featured nothing more than her bikini-wearing torso.

Deep Silver’s issued a questionable apology in response to the furor. The company did not discuss how this bundle even came into existence, and still hasn’t said whether it will be sold or not. One would hope not? I’ve asked the company for further clarification on that point, but as of publication, nothing has come back.

Here's the company's previous statement in full:

“We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.

For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.

We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.”
No Caption Provided

The story featured my own opinion on the subject, as do most pieces of content on Giant Bomb. You might have suspected part of my response, based on previous articles I’ve filed at the site, and the reaction was along the lines of the last conversation about #1reasonwhy. When I was mulling a follow-up, I didn’t want to have the same back-and-forth, and hoped to introduce some new voices.

So, I reached out to a number of women members of the video game community, and asked them to provide their individual reactions. There are voices from everywhere in games, from development to fellow writers. I didn't specifically seek out people who had expressed an opinion about Dead Island, I just figured they had one. Some chose to speak directly to what happened, some didn't. There weren't any rules.

I’m also going to start something new here. I won't guarantee it’ll happen every time, but for big features, I want to make sure there’s a dedicated time slot for spending time responding to comments. It won’t happen until the story has been up for a little while, and people have had a chance to digest it. In this case, it’s going to be for 30 minutes at 11:30 a.m. PST. As always, anything I don’t get to can be addressed in PM, on Twitter, or through my Tumblr site.

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Rhianna Pratchett, writer (Tomb Raider, Mirror’s Edge)

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I’m both a horror fan, and a Dead Island fan. But my initial reaction to Riptide’s mutilated torso was one of shock, bewilderment and confusion. I wasn’t morally outraged. It was more a deep sigh and eye roll of “Oh come on… really? REALLY?” Yes, horror and sex have been intertwined forever, but there was something about the visual depiction of this one that was unexpectedly disgusting for a number of reasons. A mutilated corpse (of either sex) is pretty disturbing, sure. A sexed-up (and there no other way to describe the perfectly round, barely covered up and non-zombified knockers) female corpse, offered up as a reward, has particularly nasty connotations. Especially when combined with the fact that it’s described as 'bait'--a confusing title for what was apparently meant to be (according to the developers) a zombie’s torso, rather than the mutilated and cut up human torso that it actually looked like. Zombies are not normally known for the penchant to chew down on the flesh of other zombies.

I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!" It’s a mistake to ignore the legions of female gamers out there, who enjoy their zombie killing just as much as the guys. It’s an even bigger mistake to outright annoy them. Believe me, I know this. I’ve got first-hand experience of being caught-up with a video games "controversy" on Tomb Raider, and so I know that marketing and the way we speak about and depict our characters and games is important. Industry and player debate about how we go about this is also valuable.

I was glad to see Deep Silver apologising for this rather large misstep, although I was a little perplexed by the fact that they seemed to use the fact that players apparently do this in the game (or at least have the option to) as some kind of get-out-of-jail card. I’ve done some horrendous things in games. I don’t particularly want to see them immortalised in statue form.

There’s been a lot of talk about whether it would have been okay if it was a male statue. But the fact that it isn’t (and we can only really talk about what we’ve been presented with, not what we haven’t) combined with the way the torso’s been depicted, strongly suggests that the marketeers would never have done that. A sexed-up male torso (and even with a six-pack it’s not quite the same) wouldn’t have appealed to the intended audience (straight men) in the same way. If they’d wanted to keep up this mutilated torso theme then a male torso and female torso, leaning against each other in zombie-baiting harmony, would’ve been a better way to go about it. And, given that the first game had a 50/50 male to female ratio of player characters and a similar ratio in the AI, rather more in keeping with the general tone of the game.

Better still, something like AMC’s Walking Dead collector’s edition head would have been more appropriate and arguably less offensive.

Follow more of Rhianna's work at www.rhiannapratchett.com and on Twitter.

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Clarice Meadows, writer and former sales operation manager at Take-Two Interactive

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When marketing departments come up with various tchotchkes to get people to buy a video game, there are a lot of factors that come into it. Theme, desirability, originality, and more. It's a matter of making something unusual and interesting enough, and yet appropriately themed for the game, that fans will absolutely HAVE to buy it. I like to think that there are focus groups involved in the choice of object, or at the very least more than just a bunch of marketing types being locked in a room for days fueled by caffeine and junk food until they come up with an idea and are let out. Sadly, I am pretty sure the latter is usually the case. The zombie torso created specifically for Dead Island Riptide was, in my opinion, a marketing catastrophe. I've heard many responses to this particular item. From "well women don't play games anyway" to "by getting mad about it and yelling, you guys are giving this company free advertising" to "it's like a classical sculpture of antiquity, but a zombie!" So let's break this down a bit.

1) I am a woman, and I play video games. I am not particularly unusual in my gender group in choosing to play video games. I grew up in the 80s, video games were around, and I liked them. I also happen to know quite a few other women who play games, including games like Dead Island. By ignoring women as a market demographic for a video game, companies are losing out hugely. By assuming women will only buy pink, glittery items or games that are about clothing and boyfriends, these companies are losing money. By putting out a completely sexist and crass marketing ploy, they are losing money. Seriously, isn't the point of triple-A games to make scads of cash? I really don't get making choices that lead to losing it instead, can you tell?

2) By yelling about something offensive, we're making a case that offensive marketing is unacceptable. By not yelling, we're giving silent consent to continuing crappy and cheap marketing choices. And trust me, this is crappy, cheap AND lazy marketing. Oh look, a pair of boobs! How innovative! Apparently these marketers think the only people playing video games are under-sexed pubescent mole men. I mean… seriously? Lazy.

3) The last time I checked, classical sculptures did not have boob jobs. Also, the last time I checked, real boobs did not do that while in a string bikini. There's this thing called gravity… And if we're going to have an argument that this torso is not overly sexed up and has turned a live woman (or live lady zombie) into a bunch of sex organs, then… well… someone is lying to themselves. Is it appropriate? Is necrophilia really acceptable now? Because that's what this feels like it's promoting to me.

Lazy and cheap marketing ploys don't make money, they cost money in PR nightmares and hours of dancing around apologizing. It doesn't take much to be smarter, and who knows? Maybe a new market full of lots of money will open up and be willing to spend that money on video games! I mean, didn't you hear that women have jobs and make money and LOVE to spend it? Think big video game companies. Think about all that cash you're letting slide right through your fingers, and play it smarter.

Follow more of Clarice's work at Plays Like a Girl and on Twitter.

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Kate Lorimer, composer and writer

No Caption Provided

For my part, yes, I found it offensive, it was “the straw that broke the camel’s back” (though I am sure it won't be the last such incident) after a year of dodgy marketing (Hitman, Booth Babes, Tomb Raider, Girlfriend Mode, Anita Sarkeesian). And from a personal viewpoint, even a close friend expressing his being fed up with online “outrage” and “Feminist point-scoring pandering” from game websites like Rock Paper Shotgun--his words--and his complete (and somewhat deliberate) misunderstanding of the concept of Feminism (being supposedly more about pursuing Women’s interests above male's, as opposed to actually being about equality for both genders).

Unfortunately, amongst teens and younger players in general (but as Jenny Haniver has shown, far from exclusively) there’s likely to be a kneejerk reaction backlash at the outrage and offence caused by it, as kids love a bit of blood'n'gore, and certainly amongst the heterosexual hormone fueled boys that whole “cor... boobies” thing has an attraction. See: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153593/yes-ah-tah

The reasons for it being offensive are obvious to the clear of thought--it's objectification at its worst. Remove the person from the body, inexplicably leaving a pubescent boy’s idea of the perfect female figure, with balloon boobs (mysteriously untouched by hungry zombie snacking) and a peek at a panty enclosed crotch--of course, hiding the vagina within--which would likely be too offensive/edgy to the same boys!

Would the situation have been mitigated had there been an alternative option of a male torso? It might have slightly balanced the equality issue, though of course there is a special obsession with boobies--especially globe-tastic ones on an itty bitty waist! But the fact that it's just a female torso they decided to go with speaks volumes about their marketing, and the usual narrow-minded targeted demographic. It might have been just as grisly but slightly more in line with the zombie ethos to have had a scary looking zombie head?

Follow more of Kate's work at K8-bit and on Twitter.

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Elizabeth DeLoria, staff writer at Gameranx and cosplay photographer

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In September last year, Jill Meagher, a 29-year-old ABC employee, went missing while walking the short walk home from a popular Melbourne street. Thanks to a somewhat viral social media campaign, the entire country began to follow the case, people everywhere wanting Jill to be found alive and well and brought home.

When she was found murdered, buried in a shallow roadside grave after being kidnapped and sexually assaulted by a complete stranger, the entire country went from hopefully to angry. Angry that someone would do this, angry that she wasn't alive and well as we'd hoped, angry that she was minding her own business in her own suburb when she was attacked. People were so angry that when the alleged killer's name leaked, social media erupted with people from every walk of life wanting his head. An entire nation was in mourning, and thousands in Melbourne marched in her honor.

I mention this because we know it's not okay to kill people. We're angered and heartbroken when women are violently murdered (and that's just the cases we hear about.) The news of Jill Meagher, as an example, was devastating to thousands that didn't even know her. Yet at the same time, we're sent these messages that sexualize, glamorize and exploit a woman's decapitated torso. That use violent murder for the purpose of sex appeal and thus profit.

When I see the same people who I saw march for Jill, whose heart sank when they heard the news of her death ask me why this torso statue is "such a big deal," I don't even know how to begin to explain to them how they've come so close to the right thing, yet they sit so far from it.

I'm not really offended, I'm just mortified at how easily we seem to forget.

Follow more of Elizabeth's work at Gameranx and on Twitter.

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Vanessa Hunter, artist and game design graduate

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We need to start at the beginning if we are to stop the pervasiveness of sexism in gaming culture, and by sticking this statue in a set that will be received by kids and young adults, Deep Silver is reinforcing an already warped attitude toward women held by the gaming community.

If this statue had been reminiscent of Venus de Milo or the statue of David, and posed in a beautiful, creative way, perhaps I could have even admired it. But as a hunk of flesh plopped into a lifeless pose and trussed up in a string bikini, I seriously have to question the thought behind it.

My main reaction to this statue, however, is that it presents a woman as a literal piece of dead meat. It beheads all personality and life and strips away individuality to present the viewer with what is simply a hunk of flesh in a gaudy bikini. This figure gets up and screams "all I am worth is to fulfill your pleasures"

To a woman like me, it's sickening because it represents how some men see real-life women every day.

From someone who has seen firsthand how a monster who holds this attitude can choke the life out of someone beautiful and radiant, this bust is a nightmare come true. And what's worse is that the attitudes behind such an object reinforce this behaviour as okay.

As for Deep Silver's "apology" placing the blame on its fan base, many of whom view them as a role model, teaching them that sexism is okay if someone else has done it before is unacceptable. They need to grow up.

Follow more of Vanesssa's work through Instagram and on Twitter.

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Anonymous

I didn't feel offended by the Dead Island bikini statue. I did, however, find it quite tiresome. I don't think that it can be denied that the statue is an obvious example of sexual objectification--a mutilated torso with perfectly untouched breasts.

Sexual objectification of women is everywhere, and it's impact is a massive discussion that goes way beyond video games. What I found most tiresome about the statue wasn't the objectification but that making a statue such as this suggests a number of things that Deep Silver assumes about their audience. They assume that the audience are young shallow men whose main interests are tits and violence. It's insulting to men and its a common assumption in video game marketing. Women are not even considered as part of the possible audience. It's outdated thinking.

I've been playing video games since I was a kid, and it's probably the main thing I do for entertainment. I have as many female friends as male who play video games. It is tiresome to be constantly excluded--and if I am included then I am considered a novelty. Women who play games are a sizable chunk of the audience and have been around for as long as video games. Objects like this statue show that we are not really considered to exist.

This individual chose not to share their personal information for fear of potential backlash.

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Melissa Cooke, writer for FemmeGamer

No Caption Provided

Personally, I think that it's rather disgusting that Deep Silver decided to sell this. The usage of a female chest and abdomen I assume was originally used as a shock tactic to grab the eyes of the media, obviously this has worked, but what made it sexist in my eyes was the way it was dressed up and the proportions on the body.

The breasts are very unrealistic in the way they're being held up by a string bikini, not to mention that there are no wounds on the breasts, making them all the more obvious.The stomach is also very flat, and the bust looks almost anorexic, which is a very damaging image to promote.

The bust lacks also a face or any other feature that makes this bust look human, which could be interpreted as Deep Silver saying "Look this isn't a human, it's a woman, look how her breasts are positioned for your enjoyment, isn't that cool?"

Overall, this is a rather shameless grab for attention on Deep Silver's part, and all this sort of stunt does is give the non-gaming public the idea that games and the people who are playing them are immature, and push any progress the industry has made back a few more years.

Follow Melissa's work at Femme Gamer and on Twitter.

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Anna Kipnis, senior gameplay programmer at Double Fine Productions

No Caption Provided

It's really hard to approach this topic in any kind of novel way. At this point, it's hard to bring round people who have made their minds up that feminism threatens to ruin their entertainment; to convince them that it's troubling to have games openly revel in dismembering decomposing women in bikinis. Yet I don't believe in censorship, either. Personally, I push this sort of thing into the same category in my brain as boob mugs (which I respect more for at least cutting to the chase and showing actual nudity). I'm not sure why someone would want a headless, bloody, dismembered corpse of a woman's upper torso, with grotesquely fake boobs obscured by a sadly implicated union jack proudly displayed on their mantle, but they're not a person I can imagine seeing eye-to-eye with on many things.

I honestly believe you can have sexiness and violence in games, even at the same time, if that's what you want. I can't think of a great example of a game that has done this particularly well (no doubt there is one), but there are many examples in film. For instance, Quentin Tarantino has made plenty of movies over the years that feature sexy women in violent situations. Even women getting dismembered (Kill Bill Volume 1, Death Proof), and yet it's never felt sexist or misogynist to me. I walk away from the theater generally thinking of those women as role models, not victims.

I think it's on us, game developers, to prevent controversies like this one. I'm a game programmer and I would be pretty bummed if I was working on what was essentially a game equivalent of a boob mug. You're appealing to the lowest, most vulgar aspects of your audience at a time when games are widely criticized for being juvenile, senseless, and immature, only to then complain that the medium is not being taken seriously as an art form. We should strive to treat our medium with the respect it deserves.

Follow Anna's work at Double Fine Productions and on Twitter.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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NekuCTR

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@Darji said:

No Caption Provided

@SniperXan said:

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

This is not a woman. It is a torso. Just like this one here.

Except it was zombiefied

Ya, I think what everyone is overlooking is that it's just a goddamned parody of high art. Although it is extremely creeper in execution it has an origin routed in a joke, not sexism. In the end it's just a dumb joke that made it to production. Tons of lame semi sexist jokes make it to production, like most of the Tomb Raider series for example.

That said, the Anon and Pratchett's testimonies did earn my sympathy.

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AMyggen

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@CaptainCharisma said:

I don't see why so many people are up in arms about this article. Just don't read it if you don't want to hear what women think about it. Go ahead and complain when there were people that were legitimately offended by the statue. Personally, I just think it's a stupid statue that only weirdos would buy and display. I don't see why people are so offended but I'm not going to verbally lambast Patrick for letting women speak their mind when the issue involves women.

Dude, it's the internet. People here seem to take this shit EXTREMELY personally, like Patrick is pointing a finger at the community saying "YOU ARE SEXIST FOR LIKING VIDEO GAMES" or some shit like that. I just skimmed the comments for this article and it's more of the same, I seem to have entered Yahoo News or something like that.

The GB has a lot of amazing people, but my God does comment sections like this one expose that at least a big minority of the community is just like the people over at Gametrailers and IGN.

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deactivated-5c26fd6917af0

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I appreciate this article. While the opinions aren't that diverse, its a lot better than a bunch of men shouting, "Wow, that's so sexist, its disgusting!" as the giant bomb crew tend to do in situations like this (i.e the Tomb Raider issue around E3).

Also, while the moral high ground vilification of this sort of thing by men is a little weird, at least it recognizes there is a problem. Its also weird that somebody would want to make a really tacky bust like this and think this was a good idea (even if its for marketing reasons, a marketing strategy that has clearly worked).

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mrfluke

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@misquared said:

@Legion_ said:

How come no men were asked to comment? I'll give you the answer. It's because Patrick wanted support for his own opinions, and used women to do so. Pretty sexist if you ask me.

As for the statue? It's dumb and should never have existed.

Just out of curiosity (and because I think discussion breeds understanding on both ends), I'd like to ask... Why do you think this article is lacking because no men commented on it? Would it be somehow more valid if there were quotes from men? Or am I misunderstanding your statement?

it would be more valid actually, as it would present a more balanced argument, and not make some dudes here feeling singled out

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Lukeweizer

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Was a better picture for Elizabeth DeLoria not available? In an article about how women shouldn't be so sexualized and showing them as only a torso with tits is wrong, don't select a picture of your sexy Catwoman Halloween costume with your clevage staring me in the face.

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I think it's disgusting, sexist nonsense that the bombcast doesn't have at least 1 female voice on it. Also why are there no female article writers on giantbomb? Would it kill them to add a section in the forum for first-time mothers who are also gamers? Black and White layouts are alright and all, but what about a Pink or Purple version of the site? You guys need to stop covering violent games for the children's sake. Why are there no female pilots in any of Drew's Flying Games? What is he trying to say with this? I'm so glad Patrick is providing a voice for all the amazing, and obviously oppressed, women out there. Keep up the Good Fight!

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This isn't eight responses, it's one response eight times.

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AlexW00d

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I do enjoy the irony of the use of a picture of a girl clearly using her looks to try and sell herself in an article about a topic so clearly against that exact thing.

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@whatisdelicious said:

@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

Same here. It's like he went out and found other 8 people who agree with him who have the right to be offended, and therefore, I'm not allowed to disagree with them. Because they're women. And I'm a man. That's not reporting at all. That's not getting a balanced perspective or digging deep into the issue. This kind of article wouldn't have even been printed in my college newspaper.

Who said you're not allowed to disagree with them? Please point out where in the article that was stated. Seriously, please quote it to me.

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DaveC524

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*looks up at address bar* Wait, I thought this was Kotaku for a minute. Gee Scoops, you should really start writing there, you'd fit right in.

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The torso was dumb, I agree. Everyone offended by it has a right to be, but this is getting a little tiresome. It's not that I think we should silence the discussion on sexism in the industry, but I feel like that issue is getting an inordinate amount of coverage on this site. I could have told you what the tone of this piece was going to be before it was even posted, and I don't feel like the thoughts given really add much to the conversation. Don't get me wrong, the women that contributed were, for the most part, very intelligent in their responses, and it's always nice to see people outside of the site contributing, but the gist of it is "hacked up, fake boobed lady torso = offensive marketing ploy." I knew that coming in!

I guess at the end of the day it's not that the feature was bad by any means. It was well written and thought out. The thing is that there are other conversations going on that I want to see Opinionated features about on Giant Bomb. How about a feature on the recent gun violence debacle? What about an opinion piece on the dissolution of THQ? How about some discussion about the implications of Valve entering the set-top box market? I know these things have been touched on in news posts and talked about on the podcast, but so has the sexism thing.

Finally, if Feminism TRULY is about equality, then the Feminist movement needs to educate its members better. I don't doubt that there are plenty of Feminists that just want equality, but most of them that I encounter and have discussions with feel that men suck and that it's time for women to become the dominant sex. As someone who really believes in equality, it makes it hard to have a discussion about it without coming off as a jackass. We all need to focus on stopping the pendulum of gender relations, not throwing it to the other side.

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@AMyggen said:

@CaptainCharisma said:

I don't see why so many people are up in arms about this article. Just don't read it if you don't want to hear what women think about it. Go ahead and complain when there were people that were legitimately offended by the statue. Personally, I just think it's a stupid statue that only weirdos would buy and display. I don't see why people are so offended but I'm not going to verbally lambast Patrick for letting women speak their mind when the issue involves women.

Dude, it's the internet. People here seem to take this shit EXTREMELY personally, like Patrick is pointing a finger at the community saying "YOU ARE SEXIST FOR LIKING VIDEO GAMES" or some shit like that. I just skimmed the comments for this article and it's more of the same, I seem to have entered Yahoo News or something like that.

The GB has a lot of amazing people, but my God does comment sections like this one expose that at least a big minority of the community is just like the people over at Gametrailers and IGN.

I don't believe that you can segregate video gamers based on the forums they frequent; Keep in mind that a lot of people could be regulars of multiple discussion boards. So you think Giant Bomb is "just like the rest", well OK then.

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Edited By Yorkin

Unlike a lot of the morons who comment on these articles, I think this is an important issue. The games industry needs to change and stop alienating its female audience so much.

There will always be games, movies, tv shows and books that cater to the straight male demographic and that's fine. Women have their fair share of entertainment media that goes largely ignored by guys.

But there's no other form of mainstream entertainment (see what I did there? I said mainstream so porn doesn't count) that objectifies and alienates women in its content, its marketing and in its business ethics than video games.

I'm not saying games should have to limit themselves. Like I said, there will always be games that continue to cater to straight males (Japan will surely see to that.) I'm just saying that game makers/advertisers should broaden their scope and at least try to lose the boys club mentality a little bit.

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Viral marketing to its finest... well played.

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@AlexW00d said:

I do enjoy the irony of the use of a picture of a girl clearly using her looks to try and sell herself in an article about a topic so clearly against that exact thing.

Sounds like just the sort of thing a sexist would say.

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@NekuCTR said:

@Darji said:

@SniperXan said:

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

This is not a woman. It is a torso. Just like this one here.

No Caption Provided

Except it was zombiefied

Ya, I think what everyone is overlooking is that it's just a goddamned parody of high art. Although it is extremely creeper in execution it has an origin routed in a joke, not sexism. In the end it's just a dumb joke that made it to production. Tons of lame semi sexist jokes make it to production, like most of the Tomb Raider series for example.

You realize that this statue originally had arms and a head, right? And that a parody of high art does not relieve it from criticism for a culture of misogyny?

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misquared

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@mrfluke said:

@misquared said:

@Legion_ said:

How come no men were asked to comment? I'll give you the answer. It's because Patrick wanted support for his own opinions, and used women to do so. Pretty sexist if you ask me.

As for the statue? It's dumb and should never have existed.

Just out of curiosity (and because I think discussion breeds understanding on both ends), I'd like to ask... Why do you think this article is lacking because no men commented on it? Would it be somehow more valid if there were quotes from men? Or am I misunderstanding your statement?

it would be more valid actually, as it would present a more balanced argument, and not make some dudes here feeling singled out

Mm... but reading the opinions of these ladies, how do they single out men on this website? If they're calling out anyone, they're calling out people who would want to buy this, and the people who made this and thought it was a good idea. I don't see any comments saying that all men are terrible, simply some statements that the video game industry as a whole tends to objectify women.

If you don't mind (again, sorry for asking so many questions. I just want to understand where you're coming from) what comments in this article make you feel singled out?

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smokyexe

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@DaveC524: If only. One day i'm sure he will realize how better of a fit he is over there.

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kingyo

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@BrockNRolla said:

Anna Kipnis says things well, but states in the same breath why there's little hope for change. So many people don't take the industry seriously, nor issues like sexism for that matter. The comments bear that out too.

People don't take things seriously, and don't want to. It's as though enjoying something and thinking about something have to be mutually exclusive. Any time someone asks them to stop and think about something, to really dig into the implications of their actions and views of the world, they get indignant about it. How dare someone question your world view? How dare someone suggest that you don't see something they do? How dare you talk about a topic they don't care about?

Disagreement and discussion are incredibly valuable, but dismissal, as is the most common comment around here, does nothing but hold this community and the discussed issues back. I applaud anyone willing to keep fighting the good fight to improve the games industry and fight back those who just can't be bothered to give a shit about how others see the world. Patrick Klepek, I can't imagine how exhausting this interaction must feel, but good on your for trying.

Here here.

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Fin

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I really hate how Patrick jumps on any fucking bandwagon that gives him an opportunity to be seen as some sort of White-Knight roaming about tackling the problems of the industry.

OKAY that torso statue is in poor taste and shouldn't have happened, no-one is any doubt that it will offend female gamers. So why do we need a huge article about it? It's not interesting, its not intelligent, its actually just really obvious and boring. This article contains no information that anyone with half a brain couldn't have worked out for themselves. NEWS FLASH: FEMALES ANNOYED BY PEOPLE WHO DISRESPECT FEMALES. Oh really? Thanks for that. Please can I have a bunch of quotes to back that up?

But well done, now you get to abuse your position as someone with exposure on the internet to try to get a free pat on the back for not being a sexist. You also get people like me to comment, by enraging them with your see-through games industry superhero act. You win.

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SomeJerk

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You know who else was sexist?

No Caption Provided

That's right.

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DoctorWelch

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(I'll just repost this here)

I seriously want someone to take a screenshot of that bust and show it to 1000 random people and ask them what they think is wrong with the picture. I'll be surprised if more than 5 point out the boobs first.

More importantly, maybe all these video game "journalists" and "critics" should actually nail down that whole writing/talking-about-video-games-thing before trying to tackle complex issues that are clearly out of their realm of ability or comprehension. Instead of feeding and perpetuating the childish nature of communities on the internet with openly idiotic and stubborn stances on largely irrelevant topics, why not try to develop and hone a professional, logical, and reasonable basis for opinions and discussion within one's staff and community. Once that is established, maybe try to figure out that thing we like to call a review by realizing the distinction between purchasing advice and critical evaluation that no one has seemed to be able to tackle yet. Then, when the topic of playing video games has become something that can be discussed on reasonable and mature grounds, maybe, just maybe, we can move on to bigger, more important subjects.

In fact, I would go as far as saying games criticism and journalism is as bad as it's ever been. We are dealing with the same issues we were dealing with 10 years ago, only now publications are acting like video games are some super serious thing (*cough* polygon *cough*) and every single outlet in the industry is trying to grab views and clicks by using preteen levels of logic to create down right abysmal and pathetic stories about complex issues they have no business in touching.

All that being said, it's hard to fault people for being exploitative and fanatical in their journalism and writing due to the nature of the business these days. People don't want to listen to logic and reason anymore, they want a childish, illogical, hate filled war on every issue. Maybe it's simply the fact that there is no room for middle of the road, reasonable discussions anymore because people constantly want to be pissed off about something. Maybe the only way to get headlines and make a living anymore is to purposefully do something idiotic...hmm...why does that sound familiar...

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qlanth

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@Humanity said:

When F.E.A.R. 3 came out the collectors edition of that game included a statue of a naked Alma, with a glow in the dark womb. No one said anything about it back then - is this statue even more offensive or less offensive? She is completely nude, but since it's a horror character and she doesn't have huge breasts does that make it more ok cause OH it's horror?

No Caption Provided

You're wrong, people were saying lots of things about it, but nobody was paying attention. Slowly people have been able to create a place where this stuff is no longer silently accepted and I don't see how that progress is anything but good.

This is NOT a new problem and there was never a time when people didn't talk about it - it's just a matter of who was actually listening then and who is actually listening now. That number has grown a lot.

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SniperXan

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@Langly: Plus..you know, they added implants and a bikini to sex her up... just saying...

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Darji

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@Langly said:

@NekuCTR said:

@Darji said:

@SniperXan said:

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

This is not a woman. It is a torso. Just like this one here.

No Caption Provided

Except it was zombiefied

Ya, I think what everyone is overlooking is that it's just a goddamned parody of high art. Although it is extremely creeper in execution it has an origin routed in a joke, not sexism. In the end it's just a dumb joke that made it to production. Tons of lame semi sexist jokes make it to production, like most of the Tomb Raider series for example.

You realize that this statue originally had arms and a head, right? And that a parody of high art does not relieve it from criticism for a culture of misogyny?

Do you know that it was not famous before it had arms and a head? And do you think this is misogyny as well? And if not why not? Because it is ART?

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Sin4profit

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My problem with the figurine is that of build quality, the idea of a headless torso sculpture just seems unfinished or lazy to me and even after that it looks like it was sculpted out of sculpey by a 13 year old who has a vague memory of what a woman's body looks like.

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Ravenlight

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@SomeJerk said:

You know who else was sexist?

No Caption Provided

That's right.

Did it really take 24 pages before anyone Godwin'd? Thanks for picking up the slack, duder!

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greyfoxv1

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@alibson said:

Giant Bomb is my number one stop for extremist feminist propaganda.

@Skeezard said:

Patrick is the Britta of the GiantBomb crew

@TwoSe7enFive said:

Here we go again ...

WE.GET.IT!!!! Bad taste. Female form bad. Video game marketing evil.

I'm really getting tired of this progressive bull-shit.

@Carousel said:

My eyes are glazed over.

Why do you do this to me, Patrick?

It's good to see Giant Bomb's comment section is full of such well informed and thoughtful people who try to raise the bar of contributing to discussions.

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AlexW00d

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@Ravenlight said:

@AlexW00d said:

I do enjoy the irony of the use of a picture of a girl clearly using her looks to try and sell herself in an article about a topic so clearly against that exact thing.

Sounds like just the sort of thing a sexist would say.

That's what... She said?

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wchue

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I hate to say it, but I thought nothing...

i'm really tired 'really' life garbage clouding up my condo i just want more content I always opt for the regular version.

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EternalGamer2

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Do you dudes READ and THINK about what you are writing before you post: "ll this liberal "let's just all get along" bullshit needs to stop soon." "More progressive bullshit" "Listen, I am all for women's rights..." "You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina." Holy fuckballs at this thread.there are dozens and dozens of comments like these. Are you trying to be parodies of yourselves? It's depressing.

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anarchyzombie9

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@KoolAid said:

So... someone pointed out that this was supposed to be a parody of a marble torso statue. Is that true? Did anyone else get that? I didn't get that.

nobody got that because it wasn't intended that way. it was intended as cheap ass disgusting HEY MAN LOOK BOOBS YEAHHHH bullshit and i'll fucking verbally assault anyone who argues otherwise. it's as bad if not worse than the DOA volleyball games

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Edited By saddlebrown

You guys, following the logic behind the article, I'm going to declare that since I'm a man and I have a penis, I can speak for all men on all issues of sexism involving a man as the subject. I'll start by answering a couple burning questions, but feel free to AMA.

"Kratos doesn't wear a shirt. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me

Thanks for the question, Me. I think I can speak for all men out there when I say this: the objectification of Kratos is disgusting. His little skirt thingy is not adequate protection from all the minotaurs and shit he comes up against, and frankly, the way he's being used as an obvious sex symbol offends me.

"Nathan Drake is pretty hot. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Me Again

Great question, Me Again. Of course it is. Why does Drake have to be talented, funny, athletic, and attractive? It puts unfair pressure on regular-ass guys who aren't talented, funny, athletic, or attractive.

"I bought a statue of Batman with Arkham City and Batman's abs are built into his suit. Is this sexist? Y/N" - Still Me

I gotta tell you, Still Me, I'm pretty offended that you would buy something like that. I mean, Bruce Wayne is a man who stands for justice, and here you are with a sexy statue of him, objectifying his mega-hot bod. How is that just? You disgust me.

And there you go. Balanced perspective.

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Dallas_Raines

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Comment, commented comments.

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Nictel

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@Mister_V said:

@Sweep: Im beginning to wonder if there is some kind of British/American split on this issue. Maybe us in the UK have a more mature view of sexism than our american cousins.

Games banned in the US:

- The Guy Game (Porn)

- GTA coffee edition (sex minigame)

Games banned in the UK:

- Carmaggedon (Violence)

- Manhunt 2 (Violence)

- The Punisher (Violence)

I see a line here... If you go into censorship and ratings (where games in the US are rated higher for sexual content than in the UK) it becomes even more obvious. US = scared of naked ladies, UK = scared of violent killers.

(

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oldenglishc

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@Darji said:

@oldenglishC said:

The whole " Where are the women with opposing viewpoints? " is my favorite argument in the thread so far. That's like being angry at a textbook for not having a counter point to the whole " the earth is round " thing.

The statue to me is still just a silly piece of B-movie kitsch, but the guest writers did an excellent job of explaining why it does have so many people up in arms.

Also: boob baseball cap > boob mug.

I think the article is not even an issue for most people that are complaining. The main problem is the whole current situation. Any Female character that is getting introduced in a video game these days is getting judged it is really tiresome. Lara and Hitman are now torture Porn. ICQ was broght up because it only has a male main char.

The media is blowing this shit way too much up. Maybe it will become better if we actually get news about games and the next generation but at the moment it is just tiresome.

I agree. It's always good to promote equality whenever you can, but it does seem like people are checking every little detail for something to be outraged about lately.

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Mirado

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@Sweep said:

I don't disagree with the intent, I just don't like how this has been presented.

This is, in my opinion, the only way to look at this piece. The idea behind it is sound: gather industry luminaries and garner their opinions on a potentially divisive topic. But he garnered more or less the same opinion from a small subset on a topic which, without someone presenting a logical dissenting argument (and I'm not sure that's very possible in this case), is going to generate practically zero insightful discussion.

You know, I really don't mind that it was all women. That's how the piece was presented, and while your argument is valid (woman don't have a monopoly on sexism), it doesn't make their opinions invalid. But without (at the very least) a contrasting viewpoint from within that group, or better yet a larger number of represented demographics (not just male and female but also in terms of industry jobs; marketers, PR, writers, developers, etc), what the hell are we supposed to do with it? What purpose does it serve that the first wave of articles didn't cover?

Why didn't he wait for Deep Silver to respond? What idea contained in this piece was so scandalous, so igniting, so time-sensitive that it couldn't wait a week to get him to sit down with DS and flesh (ha) this thing out? Why did this need to go live ASAP? It's less insightful and more shallow for it, and it's not like the ideas underpinning it are going to go away in a month.

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sammo21

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Edited By sammo21

I'd be also interested to see how some of these women feel about the tawdry statues that are also packed with some of these games.

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anarchyzombie9

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time to kick back and watch a bunch of misogynist neckbeards try and defend their exclusion, objectification, and overall mistreatment of women. stay classy, guys.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@Zetetic_Elench said:

@Sweep: People who first hand have to deal with sexism and racism because they are subjected to it should have a lot more fucking voice in discussions about how it effects them than people who don't. I'm white, what the fuck do I know what it's actually really like, not anecdotally or hypothetically like, to be black and deal with people being shitty about it? Jack shit, that's what. So I shut the hell up and listen to the people who actually have to deal with it, not barge into the discussion with some Enlightened White Objective Logical And Emotionally Detached Because I Have No Real Stake Or Involvement In It Perspective on how they should feel or act when faced with that shit.

You are making an appeal to the speaker, rather than asking for logic and reason. In this case, the argument is that the quality of their reason is directly proportional with the quality of their victimhood. This is logically false.

I find it amusing you use "Enlightened, Objective and Logical" as a perjorative. I think that pretty much reveals all that needs to be said. You realize it was during the Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, that the West adopted the ideals that an argument is only as valid as its objective basis in reality, that allowed us to have everything we have today. No reasonable person in here will tolerate the dismissal of logic and the scientific method.

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Up until this point, I had really believed that all the anti-feminist sentiment was the result of a vocal minority. It's disheartening to see so many comments trying to shout down this discussion. It really crushes my faith in humanity.

Opinions aside, it's just shocking to see how early and often people are willing to stand up and fight against discussing how women are portrayed in games. Now, even the Giant Bomb crowd seems to revolt at the very mention of this topic.

I'm fucking shocked. Who are these people?

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EnduranceFun

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@Fin said:

I really hate how Patrick jumps on any fucking bandwagon that gives him an opportunity to be seen as some sort of White-Knight roaming about tackling the problems of the industry.

That's a big problem for me too. Whenever an issue pops up that has anything to do with women, Patrick makes an article or two focusing entirely on sexism as if it's the only important aspect of the story. It's because he injects his opinion willingly into his writing and I wish he'd try to be truly objective.

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Nictel

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@Ravenlight said:

@SomeJerk said:

You know who else was sexist?

No Caption Provided

That's right.

Did it really take 24 pages before anyone Godwin'd? Thanks for picking up the slack, duder!

And it took not much longer for someone to point out the Godwin.

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Andtheworld

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Edited By Andtheworld

Can we stop giving these people attention? It's what they fucking wanted with the whole SHOCKING and OFFENSIVE statue.

It's dumb, much like all gaming swag. But hey, no one pays attention to the hugpillows and oppai mousepads that Japan makes, so I guess women don't feel objectified by that. But god help us if a corpse has big boobs.

Fuck all of this, I'm off to play some goddamn video games.

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Ekpyroticuniverse

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@Kingyo: Read BrockNRolla's post and then thourght oh shit here we go, he is about to get shit for this. Saw your post and was happily surprised. Two decent human beings in one day what are the odds.

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kingyo

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@Nictel: @Nictel said:

@Chavtheworld said:

GUYS SHE'S GOT HER BOOBS SHOWING IT MUST BE SEXIST GUYS
GUYS SHE'S GOT HER BOOBS SHOWING IT MUST BE SEXIST GUYS

Seriously though, fucking terrible choice for a picture.

Also hilarious.

You think that's bad?

Rhianna Pratchett

I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!"

She worked on Tomb Raider and Heavenly Sword. Lets take a look shall we?

PS3 box art (cropped)
PS3 box art (cropped)
360 box art (cropped)
360 box art (cropped)

Lets make a game where a girl runs around in her underwear the entire time.

Umm why cut off her face? OW you're concentrating on her boobs.

@asantosbr said:

Good video to counter balance Patrick and these 8 girls opinion:

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/9noiop/annoyed-gamer-zombie-bikini-bash

I find this much more intelligent. Also he might be right, here in Europe we have more problems with games like Manhunt than we do with boobs. Besides the point that indeed the statue is anything but sexy.

Because Rhianna Pratchett clearly made the decision on how those games should be marketed .. good work you've uncovered the hypocrisy!

Also since when were women not allowed to show cleavage, or wear what they want? I guess I missed a lot of memos...

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Phatmac

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Alright, never reading comments on the internet ever again!

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smokyexe

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@DoctorWelch said:

(I'll just repost this here)

I seriously want someone to take a screenshot of that bust and show it to 1000 random people and ask them what they think is wrong with the picture. I'll be surprised if more than 5 point out the boobs first.

More importantly, maybe all these video game "journalists" and "critics" should actually nail down that whole writing/talking-about-video-games-thing before trying to tackle complex issues that are clearly out of their realm of ability or comprehension. Instead of feeding and perpetuating the childish nature of communities on the internet with openly idiotic and stubborn stances on largely irrelevant topics, why not try to develop and hone a professional, logical, and reasonable basis for opinions and discussion within one's staff and community. Once that is established, maybe try to figure out that thing we like to call a review by realizing the distinction between purchasing advice and critical evaluation that no one has seemed to be able to tackle yet. Then, when the topic of playing video games has become something that can be discussed on reasonable and mature grounds, maybe, just maybe, we can move on to bigger, more important subjects.

In fact, I would go as far as saying games criticism and journalism is as bad as it's ever been. We are dealing with the same issues we were dealing with 10 years ago, only now publications are acting like video games are some super serious thing (*cough* polygon *cough*) and every single outlet in the industry is trying to grab views and clicks by using preteen levels of logic to create down right abysmal and pathetic stories about complex issues they have no business in touching.

All that being said, it's hard to fault people for being exploitative and fanatical in their journalism and writing due to the nature of the business these days. People don't want to listen to logic and reason anymore, they want a childish, illogical, hate filled war on every issue. Maybe it's simply the fact that there is no room for middle of the road, reasonable discussions anymore because people constantly want to be pissed off about something. Maybe the only way to get headlines and make a living anymore is to purposefully do something idiotic...hmm...why does that sound familiar...

I'm just gonna quote you because after 5min this post will be buried

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alistercat

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Edited By alistercat

I came here for the comments. Immediately saw hate fueled rage. Lots of people don't like people talking about sexism, it seems.

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qlanth

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@anarchyzombie9 said:

time to kick back and watch a bunch of misogynist neckbeards try and defend their exclusion, objectification, and overall mistreatment of women. stay classy, guys.

I really wish I could enjoy it but it just makes me angry and then I wish I hadn't looked at all. :(