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Stealth Games Don't Have to Be So Niche

Mark of the Ninja technical designer Nels Anderson knows what makes stealth games tick, and why most of them turn people off.

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I have a love-and-hate relationship with stealth games, a notion I promptly explained to Mark of the Ninja technical designer and Thief superfan Nels Anderson when I sat down to see his own stealth game at PAX East back in April.

Truly, I want to like them. I love intersecting game systems, which stealth games have in spades. Hitman: Blood Money has been a recent treat, even if that one often underscored my predominant issues with the genre. Too often, I don’t feel as though I have enough readily accessible information to make decisive, meaningful actions in stealth games, unless I spent an inordinate amount of time trial-and-errroring through a space in search of the optimal path.

Prior to joining Klei, Anderson worked as a programmer on the DeathSpank games.
Prior to joining Klei, Anderson worked as a programmer on the DeathSpank games.

Our conversation at PAX East wasn’t recorded, so we reconvened on Skype recently, and I laid out my hand-wringing again. Anderson is a connoisseur of the genre but one who's quick to criticize it, too.

“The thing that maybe I love most about stealth game is the broad gameplay flow is all about pull,” he said. “In most games, it’s all about push. The game is sending this encounters onto you and you have to react to them. All you do is react."

In Thief or Hitman, it's the opposite. You're biding your time.

"That delayed gratification can be pretty satisfying," he said. "How much you need to invest to get that and how tolerant people are of that can vary pretty dramatically. I’m totally happy to spend 30, 45 minutes trying to concoct some crazy ass situation in Hitman.”

Mark of the Ninja is a stealth game where you can truly look, feel and act like a stealthy bad ass. The game is constantly feeding you a steady flow kind of environmental information a stealthy bad ass (someone you'd assume is pretty smart) would know and use. When you cause noise, like smacking a gong with a shuriken from way across the room, the sound actually produces a noise cone on-screen, so you know what effect your actions have.

“As we were building the thing and iterating on it," he said, we kind of discovered the more information people had, the more enjoyable it was for them to play the game.”

These are the kinds of granular details that could be gathered by the player if they spent enough time experimenting, but Klei (and I’m with them here) would rather see the player spend that time employing their ideas--and succeeding.

“Sometimes [stealth] gameplay ends up being ‘well, I’m going to probe into the black box and see how that system works and poke at this thing here and poke at that thing there’ and start to build a mental model of how these guys work,’ said Anderson. “It can be fun, but that’s totally pitched on this knifes edge, where it’s really, really easy to fall on one side or the other, where it’s way too transparent and you’re just playing the mini-map and that’s boring.”

And before you ask, if you’re a hardcore stealth nut who feels design choices like this are simply to accommodate pansies like yours truly, the game will sport a New Game Plus mode where these systems are turned off.

Part of the reason Mark of the Ninja can show more information to the player is because it’s 2D--it's simpler. There just aren’t very many 2D stealth games, though. Does the Oddworld series count? The only one Anderson could come up with was Trilby: The Art of the Theft, which was made by none other than Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw. Without other games to look towards, Klei was forced to invent solutions to problems no one else had encountered.

“From the outset, it was definitely not clear that would be a thing that would work,” he said. “It’s good that, ultimately, we figured out enough to put those pieces together...I hope.”

While every developer will tell you they want to break new ground, it’s always nice to have other games to look at for reference, even if it’s only to reaffirm you don't want to head in that direction.

Figuring out what was and wasn't working requires fresh bodies, so Anderson's been recruiting local playtesters in Vancouver through Craigslist. Every week, Anderson posts a message on the service promising $20 and the chance to play an unreleased video game--and a few people show up.

Assassin's Creed is a series hugely influenced by stealth games, despite its action elements.
Assassin's Creed is a series hugely influenced by stealth games, despite its action elements.

Anderson's goal has been to find people who don’t self-identify as genre fans. A player who loves Assassin’s Creed is probably a fan of stealth mechanics, even if they don’t really know it.

“If it’s not playing towards those people, it’s probably not going to play to people who aren’t inclined to those games, either,” he said.

I’m still not sure how companies like Valve manage to recruit playtesters over and over again and keep them all quiet.

Around this time, we went down a deep rabbit hole about the similarities between most modern horror and stealth games. Both genres fall prey to their most ardent fans. Fans are fans for a reason, however, and have a higher tolerance for bullshit. As someone who plays most horror games, even junk like the recent Silent Hill: Downpour, I’m constantly forced to explain why it’s worth playing an otherwise terrible game for the few bright spots. Downpour was like that.

But flaws and all, stealth and horror represent emotionally charged experiences removed from most games.

“Those are the two styles that are really, basically, the only types of games that aren’t just about being powerful,” he said. “That’s something that I find super interesting. So many games are all about all the balls to all the walls--power fantasy type stuff. [...] Being the most bad ass who’s ever bad assed doesn’t really say a lot of interesting things to me anymore. I think that territory is pretty well understood.”

It's why Anderson plays every stealth game and I play every horror game: a different experience.

A shared problem in each genre is combat. Combat tends to flat-out suck in both, or at least be clunky to the point you wish the developer had just taken it out. Climax successfully experimented with this in Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and Frictional Games knocked it out of the park in the nightmarish ride Amnesia: The Dark Descent.

When you introduce combat, a mechanic people are intimately familiar with, expectations go up. Having developed Shank and Shank 2, Klei has proven the ability to develop a fast, robust combat system, and while Mark of the Ninja is hardly a combat-focused game, when the player does find themselves in a fight, it feels good.

How to implement combat proved problematic, though. Klei is developing a stealth game, and early on, the more combat that went into Mark of the Ninja, the more people relied on the combat in every presented scenario.

“This is the weird thing about how human brains work,” he said. “If you provide people with a very un-fun but ultimately successful means of doing something, even if you have other, far more interesting but slightly less obvious or successful or repeatable means of accomplishing the same goal, tons of people will gravitate towards the more reliable but totally boring god damn thing!”

I don’t think Anderson is arguing Mark of the Ninja’s combat is un-fun (it’s not, I’ve played it) but the point about player behavior stands. I’ve seen myself slip into similar habits in games of all stripes, stealth or otherwise.

Mark of the Ninja hopes to strike a delicate balance.

You’ll get to play Mark of the Ninja soon. It’s one of the many games slated for “summer” on Xbox Live Arcade.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

100 Comments

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TheCrimsonKing

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Edited By TheCrimsonKing

Since when have stealth games been "niche," exactly?

Many of the stealth games released in the past 15 years have been multi-million sellers. The Metal Gear franchise has sold 30+ million copies. Splinter Cell has sold over 20 million copies, of which most weren't the watered down stealth game that was Conviction. The Hitman series has sold over 8 million copies of its' games. The latest big stealth game to be released, Deus Ex: HR, sold 3 million copies and the original sold near that too. Also, while Assassin's Creed is focusing less and less on stealth, there are still heavy stealth elements in the series, and it has been the fastest selling new IP of this generation!

Sure, when compared up against the sales of the most broadly appealing (and, not coincidentally, most bland) first and third person shooters that dominate sales charts these days, the sales of stealth games fall short. Does that make EVERY game that isn't a bland, catch-all shooter a niche title? No!

Just because most publishers have shied away from the challenge of making a stealth-heavy game this generation when it is easier (and more profitable) to make a shooter doesn't mean that the sizable audience for stealth games has suddenly vanished since the beginning of this console generation.

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hermes

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Edited By hermes

My problem with the genre are all the fail states that require to be stealthy or die. At one point, missions that were instant fail if you get spotted became as annoying a design cliche as escort missions. I agree with people that say AC and Batman were prime examples for well designed stealth because you got to recover from a failed stealth. If you approached those situations in a frontal way, it was a game over, but you could still survive having been spotted.

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Icecreamjones

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Edited By Icecreamjones

Man, those obscure Niche games like Metal Gear Solid, Assassin's Creed, Splinter Cell, Hitman. Nobody plays those right?

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Zleunamme

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Edited By Zleunamme

The comparison of stealth and horror games is like comparing apples with oranges. Combat in those two genres is means to empower players a little. Not being passive all the time. If player are going engaging in fire fights all the time, it becomes an action game.

An example people have mentioned is the Batman Arkham games. Some enemies have access to guns and Batman doesn't. Fighting the enemy head on is not practical. Sneaking around is means of reaching the goal without getting killed.

The love/hate relationship for stealth games stems from going against how game is designed. Look at game like Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell and early Hitman games. There is the trial and error aspect mentioned before. If the player gets caught and tries to brute force their way out the problem. Those games games get harder by being overwhelming the player. Then frustration seeks in.

Stealth games is not an exclusive genre. There have been plenty games since MGS 2 that used stealth mechanics in some fashion. Bully, San Andreas, Manhunt, Beyond Good and Evil, and Fallout 3 for example. There is also other games that tried to shoe horn stealth for the sake of it--which I can't remember.

Stealth and combat can work together if it is done right. I wish Nels Anderson the best of luck on his game. If people have time, check out the MGS HD collection quick look to see how awesome Patrick is at playing a stealth game.

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Lamashtu

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Edited By Lamashtu

Ever get the feeling Giant Bomb usually has the wrong guy reviewing stealth action games? Respect to Jeff and all, but seriously, 4/5 for DX:HR and he played it as a shooter (hate to be *that guy*, any Deus Ex fan will tell you that's the wrong way of playing a Deus Ex game) and a 5/5 for the Syndicate reboot?

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JackOhara

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Edited By JackOhara

@Brodehouse said:

I find it completely baffling that someone can like the first three Silent Hill games and think Downpour is junk. It's Silent Hill to a fault. Combat is clumsy, you run from most enemies and try to isolate the ones you do want to kill for safety. The puzzles actually make more sense now. If you hated the old games I would completely understand disliking Downpour. I think you might have some nostalgia or maybe you want to like the old games more than you actually liked playing them.

My main problem with stealth games is feeling like the prey when the story tells me I'm the predator. If Sam Fisher or the Hitman are supposed to be the most dangerous men in the world, how come they can lose a straight gunfight against common thugs? Solid Snake is the worst example, he's less effective with a gun or his fists than the common henchmen he's supposed to be superior to. Batman and Assassin's Creed nailed it, in that you're a predator who is using stealth because it's tactically efficient, not because you're clumsy and useless. Stealth should be a fun way to gain an advantage, not an arduous and annoying necessity to maintain.

If the game was actually about me being weak and incapable and having to hide just in order to stay alive, I would understand. That could be fun on its own, if it controlled well and you were shifting through hiding spots quick and clean. But they always try to make it intentionally clumsy and I hate that.

The premise of both Hitman and Splinter Cell include that stealth is something that should be maintained at all times as you are always outnumbered and outgunned. This makes for some really intense nail-biting moments when you are trying to perform a complicated kill and get away with it, or hide a body when you know somebody is coming. You play those games in a way so that when you finish a mission, it would appear that you weren't even there.

Batman and Assassin's Creed have stealth elements to them, but I really wouldn't go as far as to call them stealth games, so I don't understand why people are bringing them up. Agent 47 and Sam Fisher might be very effective when dispatching single enemies, but they aren't superheroes, they're humans. A bunch of dudes shooting at a person with machine guns is proven to be effective in taking them out. If you want to play a bullet sponge I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you dislike what I am describing here, then you probably don't like stealth games, plain and simple. But remember, not everyone is you.

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anubite

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Edited By anubite

Assassin's Creed and Hitman: Anything (besides Absolution, possibly) share absolutely nothing in common. Assassin's Creed is not a stealth game. To suggest so is foul.

AC is an action game where you play as a serial killer of big political targets. There's no stealthy-assassination. Gameplay has always been, run up to someone and kill them - run away. That's not stealth. That's not even finesse.

Hitman: Blood Money is a good game. It's the most "action-y" of the Hitman games besides the first, but it blends action with stealth and finesse /so/ incredibly well, that the amount of action in the game is excusable.

Thief 1,2, and 3 are all stealth games with various amounts of possible action to them.

VTMB can be a stealth game. Same with Deus Ex. Both of those games have sublime stealth-design for their respective genres.

Stealth gameplay isn't about the duck-waddle or the "reacting vs the doing" in video games. Stealth gameplay lends itself to an open environment, where designers focus on good level design. Skyrim, for instance, has lame level design. You have some corridors and some enemies placed in them and you just walk forward and kill things. Deus Ex drops you in a zone and says, "Do X". There are 10 ways you can accomplish X, half of which probably involve some amount of stealth. That's what makes Deus Ex fun - I have the control to do what I want and the game is designed well enough that it can be flexible to my whims. Assassin's creed is a lienar roller coster, where you're given one way to do something and expected to do that one thing to accomplish that one mission that feeds into killing that one guy.

If you don't like stealth games, it's for the wrong reasons. Stealth games are their core are how all action games should be designed. I'm sick of rail shooters - they're a cheap game to make and produce. They have no substance. They aren't fun.

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Alphazero

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Edited By Alphazero

Great article, thanks.

I still like being the badassiest badass to ever assbad. I think being the stealthiest stealther that ever stealthed is just another variation on that. Not that that's a bad thing.

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HerbieBug

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@deerokus said:

I've never really classed the Hitman games as stealth games. They're hiding-in-plain-sight/puzzle games.

Yep. Particularly if we're talking about Blood Money. It's all about casing the parts of the level that don't require a costume to walk around in safely. Looking for possible NPC's that are wearing clothing that could be useful in getting closer to your goal, then following that NPC until they walk into a secluded area for quiet drugging. :)

To Patrick: there is one thing that makes stealth less fun or unpalatable for players who fall short of the category of stealth purist. Fail states. That's it. That's what most people hate about stealth. It's not the slow traversal of the level or the being quiet or the paying attention to your surroundings. It's GAME OVER when you get spotted from across the map by the eagle eye NPC. Most good stealth games have a certain degree of flex to them that allows you to carry on even after detection. Hitman is excellent at it. If you get caught, your punishment is a simple matter of killing every living thing in the level and receiving a bad score at the end. The game more than adequately supplies you with the tools to slaughter your way through like this. You play quiet and careful in Hitman because the game is far more rewarding when you do so. It is one of the few series out there where having to spray entire building with automatic rifle fire is the disappointing outcome.

It's funny to me how pervasive marketing theory on stealth games implies that they don't sell well. There is no evidence of that. There is a difference between focus tester opinion and actual sales. More actiony and more dumb does not necessarily mean broader audience. The same is true for complex RPG's.

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JackOhara

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Edited By JackOhara

@anubite said:

Assassin's Creed and Hitman: Anything (besides Absolution, possibly) share absolutely nothing in common. Assassin's Creed is not a stealth game. To suggest so is foul.

AC is an action game where you play as a serial killer of big political targets. There's no stealthy-assassination. Gameplay has always been, run up to someone and kill them - run away. That's not stealth. That's not even finesse.

Hitman: Blood Money is a good game. It's the most "action-y" of the Hitman games besides the first, but it blends action with stealth and finesse /so/ incredibly well, that the amount of action in the game is excusable.

Thief 1,2, and 3 are all stealth games with various amounts of possible action to them.

VTMB can be a stealth game. Same with Deus Ex. Both of those games have sublime stealth-design for their respective genres.

Stealth gameplay isn't about the duck-waddle or the "reacting vs the doing" in video games. Stealth gameplay lends itself to an open environment, where designers focus on good level design. Skyrim, for instance, has lame level design. You have some corridors and some enemies placed in them and you just walk forward and kill things. Deus Ex drops you in a zone and says, "Do X". There are 10 ways you can accomplish X, half of which probably involve some amount of stealth. That's what makes Deus Ex fun - I have the control to do what I want and the game is designed well enough that it can be flexible to my whims. Assassin's creed is a lienar roller coster, where you're given one way to do something and expected to do that one thing to accomplish that one mission that feeds into killing that one guy.

If you don't like stealth games, it's for the wrong reasons. Stealth games are their core are how all action games should be designed. I'm sick of rail shooters - they're a cheap game to make and produce. They have no substance. They aren't fun.

I think this guy puts it rather well.

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Kayrack

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Edited By Kayrack

man the amnesia part sent shivers down my spine

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mustachio

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Edited By mustachio

Oddly enough although I do think the Hitman games have a large emphasis on trial and error, I actually made a concious effort to avoid just restarting a mission if I screwed up during Blood Money. It changed my play style completely but also had its own kind of reward when I started simply piecing possibilities together without having to experiment with all the parts of a trap. Also, people that kept restarting until they got what could be considered an 'ideal' result may have also missed the feature in Blood Money in which you would become more notorious if you screwed up a mission (I am unsure if this was also in the previous games). My attempt at the suburb level was a complete and utter disaster, but I continued on to see how it would effect the rest of the game. It made later levels much tougher, and the risks much higher, but that in turn required me to adapt. There were several missions in which I performed a 'perfect' hit on my first try, and that feeling you get while you walk to the exit, as Ryan Davis pointed out, is priceless.

Honestly though, I understand why people restarted so much. Failure stings non more-so than in a stealth game, where the entire mission simply falls apart at the slightest mistake. Ultimately I would cede that although Hitman is a trial and error game, it just depends on whether you're OK with only having one trial and carrying the errors with you for the rest of the journey.

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Dan_CiTi

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"Cool PC game words about how PC games are the only games that are any good."

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GERALTITUDE

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Stealth games aren't niche, they're just less common than other genres. In recent years they've been especially rare and relatively smaller releases relative to the last generation. But you wouldn't call Westerns niche because there's so few now. I hate to get "serious" but in general I find that too much writing about video games treats it as a software and not a creative endeavour. The "now" in games rarely considers the past. I understand coverage must be about new games but doesn't everyone play old games still? Do you really only play the newest games, release after release, never going back?

That style of gaming and talking about games perpetrates an "old things are obsolete" mentality that is really detrimental for games. Vinny knows this at least! A good book is never obsolete. The argument that the visuals or graphics mar the experience by way of becoming "out-dated" is clearly subjective, so I don't know why that's ever brought up.

Also: the gameplay in Mark of the Ninja is very similar in design to that of Metal Gear. I'm surprised neither Patrick or Nels Anderson brought it up, considering the topic of the article. The supposed lack of 2D stealth games is HILARIOUS to even mention without MG. I understand the most recent undertakings of the franchise weren't to everyone's liking, but, in my opinion, there's no mystery as to how you make a good stealth game. Metal Gear Solid: Tactical Espionage Action. The name says it all.

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GERALTITUDE

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Edited By GERALTITUDE

@firecracker22: I had this exact thought today!

Good stealth games have only one fail state, just like every other genre: death. Some exceptions apply.

But yes, what you say is true. There is a hospital level in Siphon Filter 1 or 2 where the fail state is simply being seen, which happens a lot in a game with no mechanics to support stealth.

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ArbitraryWater

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Edited By ArbitraryWater

So anyways, Thief is a pretty great series.

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freakin9

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Edited By freakin9

It's funny when stealth games try to appeal to gamers like me. You inevitably find yourself thinking... I think I broke the game, isn't this a stealth game? As you run through levels.

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Roger778

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Edited By Roger778

Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell (the first game) is one of my all-time favorite games of all time, mainly because it really does feel like a stealth game. Grabbing guys from behind and dragging them into a dark corner, shooting out lights with a silenced pistol, and quietly sneaking around while crouched. Those are a few reasons why I love the game so much. It rewards you for taking your time, and being smart.

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ozzdog12

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@Flacracker: Conviction was great and Absolution will be great.

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EndlessLotus

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One does not simply infiltrate into Mordor....

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Deusoma

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I clicked on this because I read the title as "Stupid Games Don't Have to be so Niche" and wanted to know what the definition of a stupid game was. Mildly disappointed.

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TheDudeOfGaming

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Edited By TheDudeOfGaming

Play a stealth game, shoot everyone in the level with an AK-47.

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Cybexx

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Edited By Cybexx

Stealth Bastard is another 2D stealth game, don't let the name throw you its worth checking out, especially since its free.

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dropabombonit

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Edited By dropabombonit

Good article, I will be sure to check this game when it comes out. Patrick your problem seems to be that you aren't play the horror or stealth games that are the best in genre. MGS games are still great stealth games but if you get caught, you can shot your way out

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charmless

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Edited By charmless

@Alphazero said:

Great article, thanks.

I still like being the badassiest badass to ever assbad. I think being the stealthiest stealther that ever stealthed is just another variation on that. Not that that's a bad thing.

Agreed!

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Snarkasaur

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Edited By Snarkasaur

I can't see how a 2d game could be stealth based. That seems boring to me, not that I won't probably check this one out when/if its released.

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MordeaniisChaos

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Edited By MordeaniisChaos

My issue with Stealth games is that the AI always behaves a bit differently, and never realistically. If an organic thing happened and I lost my cover because of it, I'd be fine. When one AI triggers every other AI on the map with an instant Detective-Vision's Eye View of my exact position, that's just stupid. I want an AI that reacts the way I expect, and I want every bit of interaction between two things in the game world, be it player and AI, player and environment, environment and AI, to be clear in the way they would be in reality. I want a sandbox to go loose in and use my own intelligence to figure this stuff out.

I want games where you can't just walk across a kind of dark hallway because the guy looking down it is 30 feet away. If I was on post, I'd see that. I'm not blind, neither should the security forces in the ___ I'm infiltrating be. But I also don't want to see the crap that AI's do to pinpoint my exact location, I don't want absolute outcomes. It shouldn't be "he saw me, all AI are alerted." It should be "he caught a glimpse of me, informed those near him, and went to investigate. If he sees nothign, things return to normal, if something catches his attention during this, he encourages those near him to be on alert or investigate with him, and if he sees nothing, he should go back and assume it was nothing. Then, if any of them see anything after that, they should react knowing that they already saw one thing, this time it probably isn't a trick of the light and go to a higher state of alert.

The thing that makes the Stealth genre so often full of trial and error (which can be fun, don't get me wrong. That's how I played Alpha Protocol and I actually loved the stealth in that game) is the contrived AI. They do a lot of things that don't make any sense. Either they are completely mentally handicapped in one situation or psychic xray vision having super geniuses. Real humans can see more than 5 feet in front of them, they can hear someone sneaking up on them in most cases, and act organically. What I mean by organically is they do things that make sense, and are intelligent (ie, not walking the exact same path with the exact same timing every time) which lets the player predict the AI's behavior, but is also able to do something that isn't exactly as anticipated, so that the player has to adjust and adapt to a situation on the fly.

@anubite: When I played the first Assassin's Creed, the thing I loved about it was that all it really did for most of the assassinations was tell you who to kill, and give you suggestions on a good way to do so. I usually spent a lot of time investigating the area and planning out my kill to make sure I could get a clean kill and more importantly, a clean get away.

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StingingVelvet

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Edited By StingingVelvet

Stealth is one of my favorite genres and most of the things people bitch about it with it are things I actually enjoy. Hell, I even loved Velvet Assassin, great game IMO. It's important to remember when writing articles or reviewing games that humans are a diverse group and enjoy different things. How anyone can enjoy loot grinds like Borderlands or Diablo is beyond me, but people do... I enjoy stealth games, the "old traditional" kind complained about here.

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If they implemented rewind like Jeff suggested I think stealth could be pretty cool. Seriously, that was a great idea.

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I enjoyed Conviction. But maybe that's because I didn't ever really use the prepare and execute. It made things way too easy. But the stealth kills in that game were great.

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@Brodehouse said:

My main problem with stealth games is feeling like the prey when the story tells me I'm the predator. If Sam Fisher or the Hitman are supposed to be the most dangerous men in the world, how come they can lose a straight gunfight against common thugs? Solid Snake is the worst example, he's less effective with a gun or his fists than the common henchmen he's supposed to be superior to. Batman and Assassin's Creed nailed it, in that you're a predator who is using stealth because it's tactically efficient, not because you're clumsy and useless. Stealth should be a fun way to gain an advantage, not an arduous and annoying necessity to maintain.

If the game was actually about me being weak and incapable and having to hide just in order to stay alive, I would understand. That could be fun on its own, if it controlled well and you were shifting through hiding spots quick and clean. But they always try to make it intentionally clumsy and I hate that.

His name is 47, not "the Hitman." He uses stealth because he isn't supposed to exist. He's tough, but he's still just a tall dude with an expensive suit. He's not going to cartwheel out of danger or drop 20 feet and land on somebody. The first 2 games definitely were too clumsy and unforgiving, but Blood Money made some changes so that the game is more focused on planning and observing rather than memorizing the patrols of every single guard. Also being able to clear a whole mission with just a silenced pistol with a scope, because the guns are much more accurate.

As for Splinter Cell, it has the Tom Clancy name branded on it, and all of those games started off going for realism. Sam probably isn't wearing a heavy kevlar vest, and it doesn't matter how much of a badass you are in a gunfight because bullets still kill. Even if they are generic incompetent South American militants, it doesn't mean they can't aim a gun or their bullets are any less deadly. The same should apply to Snake, especially because some of the people he sneaks around actually are elite soldiers, but he's a bullet sponge and the games have always had clumsy controls, so I'm not sure if all this applies.

Sam and 47 are dangerous because they DON'T get shot. They aren't magically bullet-proof or avoid injury through sheer experience, it's because they're good at what they do, which is not being seen, and not being shot. I don't think a "real people" situation like the first 3 Splinter Cells or the Hitman games is comparable to an Italian nobleman with the world's strongest fingertips or freaking BATMAN. Not the same type of games, not the same types of stealth.

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@Fozimuth said:

@Brodehouse said:

My main problem with stealth games is feeling like the prey when the story tells me I'm the predator. If Sam Fisher or the Hitman are supposed to be the most dangerous men in the world, how come they can lose a straight gunfight against common thugs? Solid Snake is the worst example, he's less effective with a gun or his fists than the common henchmen he's supposed to be superior to. Batman and Assassin's Creed nailed it, in that you're a predator who is using stealth because it's tactically efficient, not because you're clumsy and useless. Stealth should be a fun way to gain an advantage, not an arduous and annoying necessity to maintain.

If the game was actually about me being weak and incapable and having to hide just in order to stay alive, I would understand. That could be fun on its own, if it controlled well and you were shifting through hiding spots quick and clean. But they always try to make it intentionally clumsy and I hate that.

His name is 47, not "the Hitman." He uses stealth because he isn't supposed to exist. He's tough, but he's still just a tall dude with an expensive suit. He's not going to cartwheel out of danger or drop 20 feet and land on somebody. The first 2 games definitely were too clumsy and unforgiving, but Blood Money made some changes so that the game is more focused on planning and observing rather than memorizing the patrols of every single guard. Also being able to clear a whole mission with just a silenced pistol with a scope, because the guns are much more accurate.

As for Splinter Cell, it has the Tom Clancy name branded on it, and all of those games started off going for realism. Sam probably isn't wearing a heavy kevlar vest, and it doesn't matter how much of a badass you are in a gunfight because bullets still kill. Even if they are generic incompetent South American militants, it doesn't mean they can't aim a gun or their bullets are any less deadly. The same should apply to Snake, especially because some of the people he sneaks around actually are elite soldiers, but he's a bullet sponge and the games have always had clumsy controls, so I'm not sure if all this applies.

Sam and 47 are dangerous because they DON'T get shot. They aren't magically bullet-proof or avoid injury through sheer experience, it's because they're good at what they do, which is not being seen, and not being shot. I don't think a "real people" situation like the first 3 Splinter Cells or the Hitman games is comparable to an Italian nobleman with the world's strongest fingertips or freaking BATMAN. Not the same type of games, not the same types of stealth.

... Who made any reference to them getting shot? What are you talking about? Why does everyone think when I say "they can't handle a gun worth shit" I'm saying "they die too fast!"

Old stealth games forced you to use stealth because you couldn't do anything reliably. You were too weak and useless to be able to take a single person out unless you had snuck up on them. Has nothing to do with fighting huge groups of enemies or 'he shouldn't be able to take bullets'. It had to do with your accuracy being piss poor after 10 yards, enemies that could take bullets in the back and head and then raise alarms, mechanics and movement that are slow, awkward and clumsy., and any detection requires you to start the mission over because every enemy in the level knows exactly where you are permanently. And that's horseshit.

Conviction basically only fixed the movement and the detection trope and people got up in arms. Even though your enemies still took bullets and raised alarms, even though you can't reliably shoot anything more than 10 yards away. Giving you the ability to move and hide 'turned it into just another shooter'.

Bah, you know what, forget it. I'm never going to be able to convince demagogues to stop being demagogues.

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SuperLuigiBros

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Has anyone played Stealth Bastard?

http://www.stealthbastard.com/

2D platformer with stealth gameplay that is totally great. And it's free!

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JackOhara

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@Brodehouse said:

@Fozimuth said:

@Brodehouse said:

My main problem with stealth games is feeling like the prey when the story tells me I'm the predator. If Sam Fisher or the Hitman are supposed to be the most dangerous men in the world, how come they can lose a straight gunfight against common thugs? Solid Snake is the worst example, he's less effective with a gun or his fists than the common henchmen he's supposed to be superior to. Batman and Assassin's Creed nailed it, in that you're a predator who is using stealth because it's tactically efficient, not because you're clumsy and useless. Stealth should be a fun way to gain an advantage, not an arduous and annoying necessity to maintain.

If the game was actually about me being weak and incapable and having to hide just in order to stay alive, I would understand. That could be fun on its own, if it controlled well and you were shifting through hiding spots quick and clean. But they always try to make it intentionally clumsy and I hate that.

His name is 47, not "the Hitman." He uses stealth because he isn't supposed to exist. He's tough, but he's still just a tall dude with an expensive suit. He's not going to cartwheel out of danger or drop 20 feet and land on somebody. The first 2 games definitely were too clumsy and unforgiving, but Blood Money made some changes so that the game is more focused on planning and observing rather than memorizing the patrols of every single guard. Also being able to clear a whole mission with just a silenced pistol with a scope, because the guns are much more accurate.

As for Splinter Cell, it has the Tom Clancy name branded on it, and all of those games started off going for realism. Sam probably isn't wearing a heavy kevlar vest, and it doesn't matter how much of a badass you are in a gunfight because bullets still kill. Even if they are generic incompetent South American militants, it doesn't mean they can't aim a gun or their bullets are any less deadly. The same should apply to Snake, especially because some of the people he sneaks around actually are elite soldiers, but he's a bullet sponge and the games have always had clumsy controls, so I'm not sure if all this applies.

Sam and 47 are dangerous because they DON'T get shot. They aren't magically bullet-proof or avoid injury through sheer experience, it's because they're good at what they do, which is not being seen, and not being shot. I don't think a "real people" situation like the first 3 Splinter Cells or the Hitman games is comparable to an Italian nobleman with the world's strongest fingertips or freaking BATMAN. Not the same type of games, not the same types of stealth.

... Who made any reference to them getting shot? What are you talking about? Why does everyone think when I say "they can't handle a gun worth shit" I'm saying "they die too fast!"

Old stealth games forced you to use stealth because you couldn't do anything reliably. You were too weak and useless to be able to take a single person out unless you had snuck up on them. Has nothing to do with fighting huge groups of enemies or 'he shouldn't be able to take bullets'. It had to do with your accuracy being piss poor after 10 yards, enemies that could take bullets in the back and head and then raise alarms, mechanics and movement that are slow, awkward and clumsy., and any detection requires you to start the mission over because every enemy in the level knows exactly where you are permanently. And that's horseshit.

Conviction basically only fixed the movement and the detection trope and people got up in arms. Even though your enemies still took bullets and raised alarms, even though you can't reliably shoot anything more than 10 yards away. Giving you the ability to move and hide 'turned it into just another shooter'.

Bah, you know what, forget it. I'm never going to be able to convince demagogues to stop being demagogues.

I don't know what 'stealth' games you are playing, but if you are saying your character couldn't shoot accurately past 10 yards then are you are most definitely not playing Splinter Cell or Hitman. I've sniped people countless times in both games (with sniper rifles and silenced machine guns, SC2000K with a scope in Splinter Cell). In no Splinter Cell or Hitman game has there been 'any detection requires you to start the mission over because every enemy in the level knows exactly where you are permanently', discounting specific missions where no alarms was a requirement. You almost always have the opportunity to slip back into the shadows or get another disguise. Movement and controls in these games are deliberately made to be slower than most to give the game a more methodical pace. It really sounds like you want to play a shooter with some stealth elements, not a fully fledged stealth game. To quote Not the same type of games, not the same types of stealth'.

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Edited By Sooty

@Brodehouse said:

My main problem with stealth games is feeling like the prey when the story tells me I'm the predator. If Sam Fisher or the Hitman are supposed to be the most dangerous men in the world, how come they can lose a straight gunfight against common thugs?

Are you serious? Of course they can lose to a gunfight against multiples, they're still men, and men bleed when they get shot. Do you think the ending of Mr and Mrs Smith is what the Hitman and Splinter Cell games should be like? Good grief.

The danger of Fisher and 47 comes from their skills in stealth and CQC, not being able to withstand more bullets than any other man. It's still stupid how much damage you can take in most games when shot, and let's not get into boss fights that last 10 minutes despite you shooting the boss in the head 100 times. Fuckin' dumb. Video games.

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@Sooty said:

@Brodehouse said:

My main problem with stealth games is feeling like the prey when the story tells me I'm the predator. If Sam Fisher or the Hitman are supposed to be the most dangerous men in the world, how come they can lose a straight gunfight against common thugs?

Are you serious? Of course they can lose to a gunfight against multiples, they're still men, and men bleed when they get shot. Do you think the ending of Mr and Mrs Smith is what the Hitman and Splinter Cell games should be like? Good grief.

The danger of Fisher and 47 comes from their skills in stealth and CQC, not being able to withstand more bullets than any other man. It's still stupid how much damage you can take in most games when shot, and let's not get into boss fights that last 10 minutes despite you shooting the boss in the head 100 times. Fuckin' dumb. Video games.

GAAAAAAAHHHH

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Ha

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@gladspooky said:

@TentPole said:

@Brodehouse said:

I find it completely baffling that someone can like the first three Silent Hill games and think Downpour is junk. It's Silent Hill to a fault. Combat is clumsy, you run from most enemies and try to isolate the ones you do want to kill for safety. The puzzles actually make more sense now. If you hated the old games I would completely understand disliking Downpour. I think you might have some nostalgia or maybe you want to like the old games more than you actually liked playing them.

But it isn't hip to hate the old games and it is even less cool to like the new ones.

There's nothing cool about liking any video game over another.

You're either looking for "trendy" or "elitist," not "hipster."

As a trendy, elitist hipster I find this offensive.

Also, I'm better than you.

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@anubite: I agree.

Thief, the first 4 Splinter Cell games, Metal Gear series and Hitman are not "Trial and error games" as that implies failing stealth means a game over instantly. Those games are about thinking, planning and experimenting. Even if your plan goes wrong you can defend yourself with very little frustration. They are very much allow you to be predator as you are an unkown threat that can come out of nowhere. Predator does not mean killing swarms of enemies while being loud. What the author wants is plenty of hand holding and that is fine for an easy mode but their is a reason why stealth games many have difficulties to chose from and should.

My advice would be to play the game as it should be played, not how you want it to be played. I find it helps me like games that I would normally dislike and I'm talking about mainstream games like GTA.

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Edited By Chroma_Auron

@GERALTITUDE: the Syphon filter series did have more trial and error stealth, but it did support stealth with the crouch function and predictable pathways that isolated enemies.

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Unit 13 has some great stealth action gameplay readily available for when you want to feel like a bad ass ninja! The best part is that most of the times it's not forced upon you so you can go in guns blazing if you like or silently murder in the shadows like a spook!

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@StingingVelvet: I agree with you 100% I find looting absolutely boring, yet 6.3 million Diablo III fans love it, go figure!

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@popmasterruler: Your opinion. The Assassin's Creed games are what you make them. You can play predominantly stealth if you want or just go in and do action. They are stealth but only if you bother with it.

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deactivated-5a46aa62043d1

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I love Giant Bomb. I really do. But they desperately need someone on staff who doesn't wince or whine at the thought of video games that aren't 100% aimed at the masses.

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@Soapy86 said:

I love Giant Bomb. I really do. But they desperately need someone on staff who doesn't wince or whine at the thought of video games that aren't 100% aimed at the masses.

Jeff and Alex both love the mainstream games, and I don't think Ryan minds them much either.

Plus, your complaint is invalid in this case; this article is all about niche games coming into the spotlight. It is all about games aimed at the masses.

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@littlehippie said:

@gladspooky said:

@TentPole said:

@Brodehouse said:

I find it completely baffling that someone can like the first three Silent Hill games and think Downpour is junk. It's Silent Hill to a fault. Combat is clumsy, you run from most enemies and try to isolate the ones you do want to kill for safety. The puzzles actually make more sense now. If you hated the old games I would completely understand disliking Downpour. I think you might have some nostalgia or maybe you want to like the old games more than you actually liked playing them.

But it isn't hip to hate the old games and it is even less cool to like the new ones.

There's nothing cool about liking any video game over another.

You're either looking for "trendy" or "elitist," not "hipster."

As a trendy, elitist hipster I find this offensive.

Also, I'm better than you.

Everyone relax. At least they found Spock's Beard in this article!
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I'd love to see some developers actually hit the mark with a stealth game, the perfect balance between the elements.

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stealth makes stealth games tick

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@anubite: Did you play AC1? You could not survive in that game without stealth, particularly near the end. It got to the point where the moment a guard see's you they were attacking you.

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Edited By Jedted

My problem with stealth games is not a lack of patience but when certain objectives have time limits that adds a lot of un wanted stress for me. Like is Assassin's Creed for example, when your tailing a target and you loose the line of sight. When i see the timer on the screen i quickly rush to find my target again and that sometimes leads to me making some dumb mistake and exposing myself to the gaurds.