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Team Bondi Lead Rebuts Attacks Against the Company

Lead gameplay programmer Dave Heironymous pens an open letter to the IGDA telling Team Bondi management's side of the story.

"I know, I know. I'll be labelled as 'Brendan McNamara's sock puppet' or worse," begins Dave Heironymous' post on GamaSutra today, "You'll just have to take my word that I'm doing this because I enjoy working at Team Bondi and don't want to see it destroyed by anonymous ex-employees."

Team Bondi's Dave Heironymous says the story of the studio's work practices has been a one-sided argument thus far.
Team Bondi's Dave Heironymous says the story of the studio's work practices has been a one-sided argument thus far.

Heironymous is one of Team Bondi's original employees, having joined the company straight out of University as a junior programmer, and eventually worked his way up to a position of team management. He spent the last four years working as L.A. Noire's lead gameplay programmer, and self-identifies as one of the "management goon squad" referred to by the ex-employees of the studio who have decried the working conditions at the studio in recent weeks. Heironymous had much to say on the subject of Team Bondi's working practices, and his own experiences with the alleged crunch hours that have drawn so much ire.

In Heironymous' mind, longer working hours were an inevitability of the development process. Indeed, most developers will tell you that crunching is simply a fact of making a game, but the issue many have taken the studio to task for regards falsified claims of crunch hour needs, pertaining to perpetually missed release dates and milestones. However, Heironymous says that no one at the studio worked any harder than management themselves did, and that compensation for additional hours was routinely given.

Recognising that working on the weekend was inevitable, Team Bondi put in place a scheme to (generously) reward employees for their weekend days spent at work. Additionally, in the last 6 months of the project a scheme was put in place to reward employees for staying back late on weeknights, and this resulted in myself and most of my team getting an additional 4 weeks of leave upon completion of L.A. Noire, on top of the weekend working payment.
Towards the end of the project I was probably working (on average) around 65 hours per week. Apart from a few isolated cases (various demo builds) this was the highest my regular hours ever got to, and at no time did I ever work 100 hours per week. If you think about it, that's 14 hours per day, 7 days per week, which is huge. I can't say that no-one ever worked 100 hours per week, but those sorts of hours were not encouraged. In fact, if someone on my team was working that hard I would have done my best to stop them.
I never (and in my experience, neither did any of the other managers) expected anything from my team that I didn't expect of myself. The management team at Team Bondi was not ensconced in an Ivory Tower working normal hours while everyone else crunched. Brendan himself worked very long hours and few of us here in the studio are aware of how grueling the DA and motion capture shoot in LA was.

In regards to the accusing parties who have repeatedly commented (albeit anonymously) on the dire working conditions at the studio, Heironymous challenged their motivation for coming after the company.

== TEASER ==
If the motivation were to see improvement in the working conditions at Team Bondi, then I'm all for it. I have a wife and friends who didn't see very much of me during the latter stages of L.A. Noire, and I'm lucky my wife was so understanding. All of the management and staff at Team Bondi want to improve our processes so we can make even better games in a decent timeframe, without burning people out along the way. However, some of these comments in recent stories seem to go beyond that. Some ex-employees who left the company years ago want to see Team Bondi destroyed. They want to see 35 game developers out of a job. That seems to me to be a less laudable motivation.

At no point in Heironymous' missive does he lay down any theories as to why former employees would be banding together to ruin the studios' reputation, nor does he address the crediting issues that left a hundred former employees without published credit for their work on L.A. Noire (most recently covered by our own Patrick Klepek here). However, Heironymous does concede that over the course of the game's lengthy development cycle, some mistakes were likely made, and simply asks for the chance to improve on things for the future.

Saying all of this, no-one at Team Bondi is under the illusion that crunching is a good way to work and we're actively working to learn from our mistakes for our next project. The people at Team Bondi are great to work with and I'm confident that we can make Team Bondi a leading game studio on the international stage.
Please think about that when you talk about boycotting L.A. Noire or about how heinous Team Bondi is. There is a team of dedicated game developers here in Sydney that look forward to learning from their mistakes, improving on their successes and taking on the world again next time around.
Alex Navarro on Google+

124 Comments

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CL60

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Edited By CL60
@Aetheldod said:
A lousy game from a lousy administered development team ..... never again I will get a Bondi/McNamara game (if they ever make one) , and still they had to pay the fair share to the folks who worked their asses off , NO MATTER if they didn't stayed till the end. People need to get paid for their work , also hey if you want to crunch cool yo but you can't force overtime into people because you do it too , even more so without instant compesation.
Still going on and on about how LA Noire is a terrible game? lol. Get over it dude.
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sarahsdad

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Edited By sarahsdad

@TheKreep said:

Think about it: L.A. Noire was the studio's first game. REALLY think about that. One of the most ambitious projects in recent gaming history was the game that those guys CUT THEIR TEETH on. OF COURSE it was never going to go smoothly.
On top of that, it took them seven years for them, as a company, to see a full production cycle end to end. I can only imagine how hard it is to learn from experience when things are moving that slowly.

I've been thinking about something along those lines as well, with some folks calling for a union. I can't speak to unions, since I've never been in one, but I have been around some bad managers. From what I'm getting out of the team Bondi story, and some others over the last year or two is that there needs to be better management, in general.

Maybe I'm totally off base, but there has to be a reason that "anonymous sources" haven't come out of dozens of other studios. Maybe some of them really take their time, or have the most whiz-bang programmers who ever lived, but that can't cover everyone. It's probably a pipe dream, but maybe the people who run some of the bigger studios could sit down at some point and compare notes about how their teams work, and how they handle emergencies.

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Aetheldod

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Edited By Aetheldod
@CL60: Never miss a chance do I :P ok I promise its the last time , well at least until  GOTY mania begins
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CL60

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Edited By CL60
@Aetheldod said:
@CL60: Never miss a chance do I :P ok I promise its the last time , well at least until  GOTY mania begins
Nobody cares, this topic isn't about the quality of the game. Yet like you always do, you like to come in and say THE GAME SUCKS! When it really doesn't. May not like it, but it's far from a bad game.
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hermes

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Edited By hermes

That is all really nice: you worked hard as well as everyone else; but doesn't excuse the amount of people left uncredited...  
 
Game development is though, we get that. Even people that work on crappy games worked their asses out to get them on shelves. Anyone that knows anyone in the game developers world can attest to it. This story would be just another "hard working team" story if management wasn't so obtuse to recognize the work of people and just dash it as "working on the weekend was just inevitable"... 
 
That and the whole "you are just trying to get honest people fired" attitude doesn't help your case. You have to get something better than guilt to support your case.

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notha

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Edited By notha

@hermes said:

Even people that work on crappy games worked their asses out to get them on shelves

that could be argued. i've been in a couple studios where nobody at all seemed to give a shit

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CharlesAlanRatliff

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Just wanted to say that I like the images and case names used for these stories.

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Aetheldod

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Edited By Aetheldod
@CL60: OK fair , I'll edit the post if it concerns you that much then
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csl316

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Edited By csl316

@FluxWaveZ: It does suck, I can't argue that.

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laserbolts

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Edited By laserbolts
@ZombiePie

65 hours per week? He throws that out there as if it isn't a big deal. That's not healthy. Just putting it out there.

Not healthy sure but it's not that big of a deal. Jesus I work 72 hours per week and it doesn't bother me at all. These guys are sitting on their asses in front of a computer too.
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AuthenticM

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Edited By AuthenticM

@Korolev said:

"I know, I know. I'll be labelled as 'Brendan McNamara's sock puppet' or worse,"

Too right you will mate. I'm not saying he's lying, I'm just saying he's probably lying.

Exactly. There are two sides to every story, but when Rockstar/Take-Two themselves say that they will never work with Team Bondi again, this coming after heavy rumors of them wanting to buy the studio, it's pretty easy to figure out which side has more incentive to lie and protect their ass.

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leebmx

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Edited By leebmx

As others have pointed out I can't really see anything in his statement which contradicts any of the accusasions made by former employees. He doesn't even touch on the most important point they made which was that the management constantly gave misleading release dates to encourage extra hours and crunching. 
 It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the management could admit they made serious mistakes, and if they had compensated people for their time properly and credited the people that left before the project was finished. It is the lack of compensation and credit which makes them look so nasty. 
 Also he makes no mentions of Brendan MacNamara's supposedly aggressive management style.

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Da_Madness

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Edited By Da_Madness
@leebmx said:
As others have pointed out I can't really see anything in his statement which contradicts any of the accusasions made by former employees. He doesn't even touch on the most important point they made which was that the management constantly gave misleading release dates to encourage extra hours and crunching.  It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the management could admit they made serious mistakes, and if they had compensated people for their time properly and credited the people that left before the project was finished. It is the lack of compensation and credit which makes them look so nasty.  Also he makes no mentions of Brendan MacNamara's supposedly aggressive management style.
I completely agree. All the guy is confirming is that it was great to be in management.
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bacongames

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Edited By bacongames

@SeriouslyNow: My point was that he wasn't just giving out an anonymous jab back at the people who aren't currently employed at Bondi. In the age of the internet to single yourself out there by putting your name out there (and ostensibly your contact information) is a bold move. Do I believe what he has to say? I don't know. But I'm not picking a side, I just admired the mere fact that he wasn't hiding behind anonymity. Of course that's not condemning those who did but still.

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Brendan

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Edited By Brendan

@Da_Madness said:

@leebmx said:
As others have pointed out I can't really see anything in his statement which contradicts any of the accusasions made by former employees. He doesn't even touch on the most important point they made which was that the management constantly gave misleading release dates to encourage extra hours and crunching. It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the management could admit they made serious mistakes, and if they had compensated people for their time properly and credited the people that left before the project was finished. It is the lack of compensation and credit which makes them look so nasty. Also he makes no mentions of Brendan MacNamara's supposedly aggressive management style.
I completely agree. All the guy is confirming is that it was great to be in management.

I feel compelled to note that a few of the things both of you said in your comments were definitely commented on in the article. He didn't touch upon false claims of crunch hour needs or un-credited work.

admit they made serious mistakes

no-one at Team Bondi is under the illusion that crunching is a good way to work and we're actively working to learn from our mistakes for our next project

compensated people for their time properly

Team Bondi put in place a scheme to (generously) reward employees for their weekend days spent at work. Additionally, in the last 6 months of the project a scheme was put in place to reward employees for staying back late on weeknights

confirming is that it was great to be in management

I never (and in my experience, neither did any of the other managers) expected anything from my team that I didn't expect of myself. The management team at Team Bondi was not ensconced in an Ivory Tower working normal hours while everyone else crunched

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YOUNGLINK

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Edited By YOUNGLINK

heironymous? he's makin that shit up.

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Brendan

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Edited By Brendan

@HrMagni said:

I find it funny/sad when managers says they never expect more of the employes than they do of themselves and at the same time time i doubt if the employees did do as much as the management, they would get same kind of salary, credit and compensations as the managers. But alas this is the way of the world, for now.

Usually it works that way because the best people are supposed to be rewarded with top positions, and are usually expected to take on more responsibility for the overall success of the project. Who would want to deal with working in such demanding positions if there wasn't adequate incentive? There would be few leaders out there if the current system didn't exist.

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SlasherMan

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Edited By SlasherMan

Damage control! Too late.

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Rick_Dakan

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Edited By Rick_Dakan

@Jimbo: Yeah, very good point. Extra time off does not equal extra pay for extra hours worked.

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Edited By benderunit22

Heironymous? What a kick-ass name.

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Edited By HadesTimes

I hope no one is actually blaming Team Bondi for this, it's Rockstar's fault. In my opinion something like end credits are the Publishers responsibility, not the developers. It's miracle enough that they get the game out let alone give everyone credit for it. Publishers deal with the details of getting the game out there, advertising, credits, etc... But more importantly whoever the Producer and Executive Producer were on L.A. Noire I think they SERIOUSLY dropped the ball. I think if anyone should have taken care of this, it would have been them.

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Danda

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Edited By Danda

Here's my rebuttal to the rebuttal: 
 
I never (and in my experience, neither did any of the other managers) expected anything from my team that I didn't expect of myself. 
 
I don't care if you worked crazy hours too. It's still wrong. Also, you are in a lead position. Success for leads is not the same as success for lowly employees. What I mean is that if McNamara works 120 hour weeks, at the end of the project he's going to be rich and famous as a consequence, but the rest of the guys will just get a couple of weeks off or something. I don't know if you got some bonus at the end of the project, but you are closer to the top that those nobodies who got screwed. 
 
 I have a wife and friends who didn't see very much of me during the latter stages of L.A. Noire, and I'm lucky my wife was so understanding. 
 
That's so nice, lucky you. Other wives are not as patient as yours. But not seeing your family is still wrong. You mention a wife but not any kids. Do you know how hard it is to not see your son for days? How can you defend it in any way, even for the greatest game in the world? At the end of the day, they are still games, not bridges or highways.  
 
Some ex-employees who left the company years ago want to see Team Bondi destroyed.  
 
Conspiracy! Do you realize how paranoid and unrealistic that sounds? Also, you haven't addressed any complaints directly. Do you really think it was justifiable to stay on crunch mode for years? Really? 
 ------
One last thing, Heironymous isn't defending McNamara. He's actually defending himself. If McNamara falls, as he deserves, he will be out of a job, and the stink of this is going to follow him for a while.

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FluxWaveZ

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Edited By FluxWaveZ
@HadesTimes: What are you blaming R* for? The credits? Where did you get the information that the credits are the publisher's responsibility? 
 
And Rockstar did more than they had to so that the game could actually ship, according to past articles. The relationship between R* and Team Bondi actually soured because R* was taking more and more creative control so that the game could actually see the light of day faster.
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HadesTimes

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Edited By HadesTimes

@FluxWaveZ: because things like LEGAL, ARE the publisher's responsibility, and credits fall into that. And i did end the post by saying that the Producers should have taken control over this and made sure everyone got credited. But in light of what the post after mine said, I think this whole thing is a little more inside baseball than perhaps has been reported. I think this whole situation is probably symptom of a greater problem in the industry. The system of crediting obviously needs to be reviewed. People who work hard on a project even for a little while need to get credited no matter what.

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ProfessorEss

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Edited By ProfessorEss

I feel for employees being treated poorly, I really do, but I can't shake the same feeling I get whenever one of these stories comes up. 
 
I don't know if anyone else has pursued the possibility of a career in gaming, but fact of the matter is that this seems to be par for the course when it comes to this line of work. I was told day in and day out by everyone that insane hours was what the industry was all about, and passion is the only way you can be happy doing it. 
 
I wonder how many people who want their dream job to be their dream job so bad that they ignore all the warnings people give them about the hardships of said dream job and then end up astounded when these warnings they were given become reality? 
 
I said it when the original story broke, I'll say it again: Don't like your job? Quit and get a new one. That's what I would've done, have done in the past, and will do again if need be.

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megalowho

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Edited By megalowho

It's one thing for ex-employees who got shafted to bad mouth Team Bondi. But when Rockstar their publisher publicly states that they want nothing to do with them anymore, I tend to think that there were some serious issues going on behind the scenes that we'll probably never hear about.

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MordeaniisChaos

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Edited By MordeaniisChaos

Just because you think it's ok or right doesn't make it so. I think that's a lesson this guy needs to learn. And I think it's gross that he's saying these people are trying to ruin the developer. Sounds more like they want the developer to IMPROVE.

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Da_Madness

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Edited By Da_Madness
@Brendan: fair call. I selectivly read the article. However still feel that the 'weekend work for leave....in a few years time', was wrong.
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HrMagni

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Edited By HrMagni

@Brendan said:

@HrMagni said:

I find it funny/sad when managers says they never expect more of the employes than they do of themselves and at the same time time i doubt if the employees did do as much as the management, they would get same kind of salary, credit and compensations as the managers. But alas this is the way of the world, for now.

Usually it works that way because the best people are supposed to be rewarded with top positions, and are usually expected to take on more responsibility for the overall success of the project. Who would want to deal with working in such demanding positions if there wasn't adequate incentive? There would be few leaders out there if the current system didn't exist.

Yes you are right thats how it is supposed to work, but i only seem to hear the phrase "i never expect more of the employes than i do of myself" in situations when they are squeezing work out of employees with out proper rewards. I am just trying to point out the managers are usually paid and rewarded in accordance to their perceived value, and therefore they cant expect others to put in extra effort without rewarding said people, even if they themselves are extra hardworking.

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PXAbstraction

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Edited By PXAbstraction

Crunch in any industry is not a fact of life, it's a fact of bad management, period. Whether from Team Bondi or Rockstar, if crunch is necessary, it means you underestimated deadlines or let your design plan get out of control. Calling it routine is a callous, dismissive attitude to take and reeks of disrespect to your staff. Saying that "Well I had to work long hours too so that makes it OK." is even more idiotic. Seriously Team Bondi, the more you let your bad managers keep running their mouths off and essentially proving everyone's points, the longer this issue will stay in the public eye. Rockstar Games, a company famous for bad management, kicked you to the curb because of your bad management. If that happens, YOU are the problem.

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napalm

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Edited By napalm

Hey guys, guess what? Both Rockstar and Team Bondi are fuckin' in the wrong here. Stop pointing fingers like you have some self important opinion on the subject that needs to be heard.

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Da_Madness

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Edited By Da_Madness
@ProfessorEss said:
I feel for employees being treated poorly, I really do, but I can't shake the same feeling I get whenever one of these stories comes up.  I don't know if anyone else has pursued the possibility of a career in gaming, but fact of the matter is that this seems to be par for the course when it comes to this line of work. I was told day in and day out by everyone that insane hours was what the industry was all about, and passion is the only way you can be happy doing it.  I wonder how many people who want their dream job to be their dream job so bad that they ignore all the warnings people give them about the hardships of said dream job and then end up astounded when these warnings they were given become reality?  I said it when the original story broke, I'll say it again: Don't like your job? Quit and get a new one. That's what I would've done, have done in the past, and will do again if need be.
I can understand your point but you have to realise that (if what we have heard is true) these employees where told that their project, the thing that they have devoted so much of their lives too, was almost completed time and time again. 
 
Then after the game was released they don't get any credit. Working 100+ hours a week to a project that has had alot of effort only to not get any credit what so ever is just wrong.
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coakroach

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Edited By coakroach

People hated working for Team Bondi enough to jeopardize its future. 
Its either bad hiring or bad management, either way it was bad.

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Brackynews

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Edited By Brackynews

@Franstone said:

Was pretty crazy but was willing to go through it to get in the biz...

Management proclivities aside, this is true for most industries, and most jobs worth having. A lot of people are willing to work hard to get something they want. How do you get to be better than the other guy at multiplayer? Play more. How do you get promoted? Work hard and get noticed (and don't be indispensable at your current job).

The unfairness is when people are not compensated appropriately. Even the top brass can get the shaft because there is always a topper brass. Also no one stranger is suited to speak on behalf of another stranger for what fair compensation is. Everyone here saying what is right and what is wrong about working conditions... unless there's legislation on the books, that's all subjective. Even between different trade unions it's subjective. You think the founders of Google worked 37.5 hours per week and every third Friday off before they went public? No fucking way.

How do you get your foot in the door at WM? You can "compete" to be an unpaid intern. I dunno about you guys, but I left a pretty well paying career to go back to school and work my way into an even better paying career. If I'm going to take on any job working for nothing it better have some kind of life changing potential. It's possible that some opportunity could be that appealing to me, but it sure as hell won't be as a game developer.

Also LA Noire is a great goddamn game. Looking forward to some Reefer Madness once I finish my homework. :)

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forkboy

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Edited By forkboy
@ProfessorEss: This is such a bullshit thing to say.  Yeah, everyone knows that videogames is a retarded industry that happily sucks all the life out of its employees & throws them away.  IT DOES NOT HAVE TO WORK LIKE THAT!
 
Why quit the job?  Why not try to change to job to what it should?
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Edited By 137

regardless of your company beef, I thoroughly enjoyed the game!

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Edited By sleepykyle
@ZombiePie:   idk what sort of jobs you guys work, but that's not unheard in the engineering industry.  The important thing is to have the freedom to take at least a week off after a 65 hour work week. 
 
Just sayin, until you work a schedule like that, it's hard to really understand what it feels like.  and I'm saying from experience...it aint that bad AS LONG AS you have the time to recoup immediately. 
 
From that letter from the disgruntled employees, i dont remember them saying they had that vacation time after a strenuous week, which is terrible.... but still, I bought the game
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MooseyMcMan

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Edited By MooseyMcMan

It's good to hear the other side of the story for once. 

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MEATBALL

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Edited By MEATBALL

At least he doesn't sound like as big of an arsehole as McNamara?

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tourgen

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Edited By tourgen

They are just making a damn game.  There is no reason for working weekends or long days.  It's just a game.  Hire enough people to do the god damned job on schedule.
 
The very first sentence quoted is utter bullshit.  It is not inevitable.  It is in fact an indicator that the company is managed by greedy assholes.

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dr_zox

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Edited By dr_zox

I am sorry, But My BS Rader just went off, He doesn't address the issue he simply avoids it and talks about his own experience

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dr_zox

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Edited By dr_zox

What I hate the most is that, they talk about compensating people that worked long hours, but they only compensated those that were there at completion. by giving them a month off work. They should have given employees time off for meeting milestones not just the completion of the game.

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tim_the_corsair

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Edited By tim_the_corsair

The whole games industry is built on 'crunching' - every studio does it, whether it is due to unreasonable publisher expectations or as a way to utilise less staff than are actually required, it is a fact of life toward the end of development cycles...hell it's a fact of life in most private enterprise jobs, albeit not to the same extent.

We are hearing that side of things from this guy, and we are hearing anonymous hearsay from some other people. I have no doubt that conditions at Team Bondi were hellish, and I have no real doubt that the big boss was probably a big douche...but I'd be surprised if it was really THAT much worse than crunching at any other studio.

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dr_zox

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Edited By dr_zox

@Brackynews: I currently have a job in the IT service industry, and I am quite familer with Crunch time where you will put in 14 hour days to get work done and work an 80+ hour work, this is expected in my line of work. Commonly I work a 50 hour work week.

Inititally this was good and fun and the company gave you time off for time you worked over hours, But they have changed recently because of the job climate and now have the attitude that its a privilage to work for them. Since then they have decided that there will be no overtime compensation for time worked out side of hours, but outside of hours work is still expected.

What I found is that you simply cannot sustain an 80+ work week for long periods of time without it burning you out. At the moment you work hard and you get sick and you lose money for getting sick and they won't reward your time off. Now I am changing careers to teaching because I am sick of the IT service industry.

Bondi have this attitude, which is NEVER good. the attitude of its a privilage for you to work for us will never work as people just get burnt out.

Bracky you are correct in saying its common to expect long work hours etc, however the Google guys probably did take time off to recuperate every now and then, which was a privilage that these developers do not get. and quite simiply crunch hours are common in any workplace but they are unsustainable for long periods of time and people need the downtime afterwards

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Franstone

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Edited By Franstone
@Brackynews said:

@Franstone said:

Was pretty crazy but was willing to go through it to get in the biz...

Management proclivities aside, this is true for most industries, and most jobs worth having. A lot of people are willing to work hard to get something they want.

And there are people who get away with barely doing anything, as long as they have to wool pulled over upper management's eyes or some1 wrongfully backing them.
Creating an image that they don't actually live up to, getting accolades for laughable performance.
I've seen it happen.
Some people work their asses off and get the shaft when others just cruise on through.
 
Besides, something like mandatory hours that equal one and a half times the average workers 40 hour work week is quite different than choosing to put that extra work in to be appreciated and noticed.
 
What did mandatory 60 hour work week create?
A bunch of people senior people in a click that fart around not doing work chatting at their cubes, wasting company time and money.
 
I've been in the position where I was not appropriately compensated.
I worked my ass off.
Guess what I got?
Unemployment.
Why?
Because of a personal vendetta.
 
Maybe some people's job life is all sunshine and rainbows but that doesn't go for everyone.
 
Not everything is so black and white.
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xpgamer7

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Edited By xpgamer7

This whole thing is confusing as hell.

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Robopengy

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Edited By Robopengy

@Tuffgong: I feel this is the way to go. If you are an ex-employee, why be anonymous?

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Three0neFive

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Edited By Three0neFive
@Napalm said:
Hey guys, guess what? Both Rockstar and Team Bondi are fuckin' in the wrong here. Stop pointing fingers like you have some self important opinion on the subject that needs to be heard.
yeah, fuck you guys for having opinions
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FluxWaveZ

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Edited By FluxWaveZ
@Robopengy said:

@Tuffgong: I feel this is the way to go. If you are an ex-employee, why be anonymous?

Probably so future employers don't know you as the one who essentially backstabbed a previous employer.
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napalm

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Edited By napalm
@Three0neFive said:
@Napalm said:
Hey guys, guess what? Both Rockstar and Team Bondi are fuckin' in the wrong here. Stop pointing fingers like you have some self important opinion on the subject that needs to be heard.
yeah, fuck you guys for having opinions
Or you can look like an ass and miss the point entirely. That works, too.