When Passions Flare, Lines Are Crossed [UPDATED]

Bottom line, This guy is a tool and he deserves to be tarred and feathered.

Yet if the tables were turned and she was asking the guys the size of their dicks no one would care and nothing would have been said or done. -_- This is what is really wrong with sexual harassment, double standards.

@Huey2k2: This isn't about trash talking though! Why does bad behavior all get filtered down into trash talking?

This wasn't another player being inappropriate. It was Aris, talking about how he thinks sexual harassment is appropriate in the fighting game community. And it was a person who he had a position of power over, as her coach, disagreeing strongly with him about it. After he had sexually harassed her in a really inappropriate manner on live stream.

It wasn't a case of "Oh, you bodied my Ken and I'm pissed about it so I'm going to get heated and say some weird shit." It was like if Simon Cowell tried to bone every girl and smell their hair on the next episode of the X-Factor. It is a superior being weird and inappropriate sexually toward the person they're in charge of.

This guy...I don't even know what to say. I hope he's permanently banned from the scene or something, at the very least.

@Grondoth said:

If rape jokes and harassment define your scene, you have a shit scene.

100% agree

@Turambar said:

@Huey2k2 said:

As someone who knows nothing about the fighting game community, or the people in it. I must say, this article is rather silly. Anytime you have any sort of serious competitive atmosphere there is going to be trash talking, and nothing in this article is especially over the top as far as trash talking goes. Go play some COD on Xbox Live and tell me that anything in this is crossing the line, because the shit you hear on there is about 100 times worse than this.

Trash talking is part of competition, ask any kind of professional athlete, they all do it. If you can't take the heat, get out of the metaphorical kitchen.

If you don't like being forced to sit in the back of the bus in Montgomery, Alabama, get out of the South. Oh wait.

Except playing video games in a competitive environment (especially for money) is a choice, you don't have to do it. Being born into a segregated community and not being able to move is definitely not your choice.

He's not sexist, he's just an all around twat. And a bloody moronic twat at that, judging by his poor attempts to justify the way he acts. No matter how anyone feels about the limits of ''trash talking'', no-one can deny that he has made a piss poor argument for himself. And he's not certainly not doing himself any favours if he's openly ignoring Patrick as well.

I do think that Miranda just forfeiting was a little drastic; maybe if she brought up how uncomfortable she was, he may of toned down his ''I want to smell you'' garbage? Of course I'm certainly not condoning anything this guy said--again, all around twat--but if he was called out more for breaching the limits of some people, then maybe he could eventually learn to be a bit more respectable and can operate within some sort of boundaries.

Also I'm not apart of any fighting game community myself, but if he really is the ''norm'' and is what's largely considered acceptable, then I can safely say that I'm not missing out on much.

I really wish that people like Bakthanians would learn that just because you CAN say something, doesen't mean you SHOULD say something.

The Fighting Game Community is pretty welcoming, just as welcoming and rowdy as a normal group of guys hanging out. I did not have a problem "getting into it", far more welcoming than the PC community, far more ruthless to me. The arcade environment is a fierce one, but the fierceness is all in love of the game. You suck, you lose and you go to the back of the line, you learn from watching other people play, you work hard because your money is on the line and you want the respect from the people around you, now with online that's different though.

Aris is a unique jerk, but he is not malicious, he's a jester. Also guys talk about their body parts all the time, and women judge each other so much more all the time, and usually are being malicious, jealous, et cetera and is a lot worse than all the random stream monster spam/trolling that Aris has been belting during the show.

I hate posting a comment on a video game website, but I have a girlfriend so I'm making an exception this one time.

Just wanted to commend you, Patrick, on a great story that highlights an important issue in the video game world. Obviously this guy doesn't represent everyone else who plays and enjoys fighting games, but it makes the rest of us look bad. In fact, all these super ignorant comments on this article look bad, too.

I dunno. I wonder if this guy will be able to when it's so easy to Google all these misogynistic things he's said.

This is how you should trash talk
http://nedroidcomics.livejournal.com/221387.html

@bluefoxxy said:

But lets cut the shit. There are PLENTY of streams gone up by Giant Bomb that include, "risque" and sexual annotations that could be EASILY defined as derogatory or sexually abusive. Yet there is no speak of this.

such as?

Let's wrap some logic around this bad boy:

Real guy and gal gamers competing (for money, e-fame, e-attention, power, etc - you know all the things that are 100% ethical, not up for debate etc.)...

In a violence-themed fighting videogame...where the actual fighters trash-talk each other...

Patrick/Jared's case is that gamers shouldn't say homophobic/racist/misogynistic things because it keeps some people away from the e-sport. Nevermind the fact we live in a country which promotes freedom of thought. Nevermind the rights/thoughts of people who have these undesirable/unpolitically-correct thoughts. They don't matter because at the end of the day, the domestication of the herd is all that matters.

There's a very noticeable theme to every Patrick article, isn't there? He grabs a moral high-ground (usually tied back to some sort of nepotism or cronyism of the site ((Jared in this example)), and pretends as though there is only one morality. It leaves me with so many questions to ask him but instead I'll ask only one: Patrick how stupid do you think all of us are? Take your pretentious, condescending, politically-correct horsesh*t and get off my lawn.

This article is premature and shouldn't have been published....here's a link to Miranda's tweet and here's what she said:

Miranda Pakozdi ‏ Super__Yan

"I think I may have overreacted about GiantBomb and Destructoid's articles about the harassment incident. Not used to articles involving me."

Miranda was stressed not only by Aris antics but by the show's format...she just couldn't take it anymore. In respects of Aris, harassment...lol...women are funny human beings...I said that because early on in the show she found the attention amusing and entertaining but I said earlier a lot of factors contributed to her bad experience and not the "exaggerated" sexual harassment issue.

@bluefoxxy said:

But lets cut the shit. There are PLENTY of streams gone up by Giant Bomb that include, "risque" and sexual annotations that could be EASILY defined as derogatory or sexually abusive. Yet there is no speak of this. No news stories. No apologies. Imagine for one minute that you brought on a key contributor to GB onto a live feed of anything and he spouted off something sexual towards babs or will or ANYONE. How fast would everyone acknowledge it and move on?

Okay, but when has anyone ever been sexually assaulted or harassed on a Giant Bomb video/stream?

I don't come to your LAN party with your friends and tell you what you can and cannot say.

This guy thinks that what he says is acceptable because in his community, 15-25 year old males with low self-esteem and low confidence find solace in the fact that other people in their community are similarly in possession of low self-esteem and low confidence.

The reason this guy thinks that it's ok to be misogynistic is because his community has deemed that linguistic behaviour as normal. By thinking'[he] can say what [he] want[s]', he's merely reenforcing his community's position on acceptable linguistic behaviour.

Some Linguists in the 70s (Lesley and James Milroy) did some work on speech communities and social networks, and found that close-knit speech communities (like the ones that can be found in arcades) have strict linguistic codes with associated attitudes and vocabulary (such as 'Yeah, rape that bitch!'). They also found that a speech community's attitudes, behaviour and vocabulary became less exclusive, less incendiary and more 'normal' as the community widened.

Basically, as a greater variety of people join a community- here, the arcade community- the levels of acceptance towards those groups will increase.

...so all I'm saying Rea is good job, you're making the world a better place just by being involved!

Peace and Love x

So, for what it's worth, this:

Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We’re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don’t know how to treat one another with respect? That’s what it is.

is very much how I feel about this whole thing.

See, as I keep gaming into my thirties, some of the shit that goes on in gaming just doesn't cut it anymore. I used to just ignore sexist stuff in the games themselves, or just be mildly ashamed when friends and family walked in on a session of Soul Calibur or DoA. These days I just ignore the damn things, because I get to be selective about my gaming choices now. I used to trash talk in arcades (to men, but trash talk nonetheless. Mothers were mentioned. Mr. T wouldn't have been happy). I don't anymore, because I'm no longer 12. I also mute people online the moment they speak a word about anything not directly related to the actual game. Because I have enough stuff in my life to also deal with idiots I don't actually know.

We are here, guys. The adults. We were here twenty years ago and we're here now and we aren't going to go away. We like it here. And so do the gaming moms and the female gamers and everybody else. You guys need to make some room for us or we'll make it for ourselves, and you'll like that less, because it involves a lot of money going to iPad and Facebook games. Because we have more cash than you do and we know how to spend it to get what we want.

So please, from one core gamer to many others. So that the games stay relevant, and well funded, and triple-A and hardcore. Cut the shit. It's not funny.

That guys looks like a homeless person. There is no excuse for this behavior. It's disgusting.

@TheFrostedGamer said:

Patrick how stupid do you think all of us are? Take your pretentious, condescending, politically-correct horsesh*t and get off my lawn.

You're actually on his lawn. So if you don't like it, leave.

Of couse Bakhtanians wont reply... fucking douche. Great write up Patrick! The fighting game community should distance themselves from people like Bakhtanians.

@TadThuggish said:

@algertman said:

@rmanthorp said:

https://twitter.com/#!/Super__Yan/status/174601661401149440

This makes me sick. Fuck sake...

Then Sterling had to take the article down and fix it. How does that man still have a job? Game journalism is a joke.

Because being a decent human being doesn't matter when you have a HOT NEW LOOK AT MASS EFFECT 3!!!

the tweet is deleted, what was there

@NoelVeiga said:

@bluefoxxy said:

But lets cut the shit. There are PLENTY of streams gone up by Giant Bomb that include, "risque" and sexual annotations that could be EASILY defined as derogatory or sexually abusive. Yet there is no speak of this. No news stories. No apologies. Imagine for one minute that you brought on a key contributor to GB onto a live feed of anything and he spouted off something sexual towards babs or will or ANYONE. How fast would everyone acknowledge it and move on?

I'd love to see a link to one of those derogatory, sexually abusive Giant Bomb streams. I honestly can't think of one off the top of my head. Them joking about a game being sexist, sure. Them joking about rape or sex with female characters of people? Nope.

Excellent point. If Giant Bomb contained constant references to rape in the same way that competitive fighting games do, I wouldn't fucking visit Giant Bomb, because Giant Bomb would be shitty.

Also, great article, Patrick.

Gamers, as whole, are vile pieces of shit, and I hate associating myself as one of them even though I absolutely am.

And fuck the fighting game community with its bullshit, pathetic self-seriousness and its asinine faux-ebonics lingo.

@darkdragonmage99 said:

@Clutch414: Did I say it did ? This topic has two threads in it chick getting " harassed " and people thinking this kinda thing should be censored . You can call the guy a asshole all you want it's the censorship that pisses me off. Now personally I don't see this as harassment if you read the rest of my posts you'll know why. What he did was a joke sure a joke in bad taste a joke that may or may not have crossed the line But it was not harassment .

We don't want it to be 'censored'. We want it to stop happening. If it's censored, it still happens, and it's still harassment.

Asking a woman for her cup size, smelling her hair, and urging the cameaman to get a view of her ass is harassment.

All she was there for was to compete in the tournament. None of that garbage was necessary.

Much of the eSports/competitive community has done a piss-poor job of policing themselves. That's why articles like these are necessary, so that normal people with human decency get involved and force morons like this Bakhwhatever guy to shape up or ship out.

Being part of a community where hateful and disgusting actions are commonplace does not mean they're exempt from the standards of human decency that apply to everyone, ALL the time.

@UnAbel said:

It makes me sad how people will believe anything if it's written by some guy on a website.

Aris is the guy who said all that shit about the 'community'.

This guy doesn't speak for the FGC. Case closed.

@NoelVeiga said:

So, for what it's worth, this:

Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We’re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don’t know how to treat one another with respect? That’s what it is.

is very much how I feel about this whole thing.

See, as I keep gaming into my thirties, some of the shit that goes on in gaming just doesn't cut it anymore. I used to just ignore sexist stuff in the games themselves, or just be mildly ashamed when friends and family walked in on a session of Soul Calibur or DoA. These days I just ignore the damn things, because I get to be selective about my gaming choices now. I used to trash talk in arcades (to men, but trash talk nonetheless. Mothers were mentioned. Mr. T wouldn't have been happy). I don't anymore, because I'm no longer 12. I also mute people online the moment they speak a word about anything not directly related to the actual game. Because I have enough stuff in my life to also deal with idiots I don't actually know.

We are here, guys. The adults. We were here twenty years ago and we're here now and we aren't going to go away. We like it here. And so do the gaming moms and the female gamers and everybody else. You guys need to make some room for us or we'll make it for ourselves, and you'll like that less, because it involves a lot of money going to iPad and Facebook games. Because we have more cash than you do and we know how to spend it to get what we want.

So please, from one core gamer to many others. So that the games stay relevant, and well funded, and triple-A and hardcore. Cut the shit. It's not funny.

@Turambar said:

@Pinworm45 said:

@Turambar said:

@Huey2k2 said:

As someone who knows nothing about the fighting game community, or the people in it. I must say, this article is rather silly. Anytime you have any sort of serious competitive atmosphere there is going to be trash talking, and nothing in this article is especially over the top as far as trash talking goes. Go play some COD on Xbox Live and tell me that anything in this is crossing the line, because the shit you hear on there is about 100 times worse than this.

Trash talking is part of competition, ask any kind of professional athlete, they all do it. If you can't take the heat, get out of the metaphorical kitchen.

If you don't like being forced to sit in the back of the bus in Montgomery, Alabama, get out of the South. Oh wait.

Do you actually think that mutual trash talk in a competitive gaming culture that embraces trash talk is at all comparable to the legal and willful physical oppression of a race on public property?

That's so incredibly insulting and ignorant of an actual plight it's pathetic.

A subculture that willfully embraces derogative speech based on racial, gender, and sexual orientation lines. This is what you are defending. What the fuck is wrong with you.

You are treating this like it is the equivalent of the KKK.

The only people who are being trash talked in this are people who choose to go and play these games there, if you go to play games in competitive environments you probably already know that trash talking goes on, and if that trash talking bothers you, you can simply choose not to do it and never once be exposed to it.

It's not like these people are coming to your house and saying these things to you, they aren't marching down the streets. They quite simply are not hurting anyone but themselves, and they seem to like it that way, so who fucking cares?

I don't come to your LAN party with your friends and tell you what you can and cannot say.

@darkdragonmage99 said:

@Clutch414: Did I say it did ? This topic has two threads in it chick getting " harassed " and people thinking this kinda thing should be censored . You can call the guy a asshole all you want it's the censorship that pisses me off. Now personally I don't see this as harassment if you read the rest of my posts you'll know why. What he did was a joke sure a joke in bad taste a joke that may or may not have crossed the line But it was not harassment .

Well, you did bring up the First Amendment as a defense for this guy, did you not? And by doing that, you showed that you have zero clue what protections the First Amendment provides. If Capcom were to kick this douchebag off their show it wouldn't be censorship, it would be business decision made by a private entity.

The First Amendment does not protect you from all repercussions for your speech, it only protects you from the government sanctioning you for that speech.

@Gorkinlot said:

Of couse Bakhtanians wont reply... fucking douche. Great write up Patrick! The fighting game community should distance themselves from people like Bakhtanians.

I'm not quite comfortable with this. Let me correct it for you.

"Of course Bakhtanians won't reply. I don't blame him. He said some foolish things about a community and it's now blowing up around him."

Calling the guy a "fucking douche" isn't going to help anything. He's a guy who says provocative things for attention. He's a Jeremy Clarkson.

I respect the passion of the FGC, but not the attitude that you can't have a valid opinion on a story like this unless you're a part of it. This article is not a drive by hit piece or some kind of rallying cry for political correctness, and I'm a rational person that understands competition and can separate individuals from communities. More opinions from all parties involved would be nice, but not everyone wanted to contribute and that's their right.

Seems like Patrick is open to a follow up piece if if's necessary, I look forward to reading that if it materializes.

@m2cks said:

@churrific said:

Like others have said, I wish Patrick would've gotten both sides of the story, including an insider's view from the community (not jared). Running the story without even speaking directly to the participants, or even getting a quote out of them, only provides a superficial glance at the situation and the community as a whole. A really negative one at that. No one's saying the FGC is perfect, but If you're gonna blow up a community, at least get some opposing viewpoints before using one man to paint a really ugly picture of a group of people to outsiders who have no exposure to them.

Yes, but note how he tried twice, unsuccessfuly, to reach out to Bakhtanians for his side of the story. Patrick shouldn't be blamed for being biased; rather he should be commended for trying. If you need someone to blame for this story sounding "one-sided", blame Bakhtanians for not responding.

I disagree. I don't think just trying a couple of times (unsuccessfully) to contact someone on twitter for a quote/discussion is enough due diligence... (and posting a cut-together video from youtube of all places as part of the article seems unprofessional to me).

• "Important figure" makes broad, sweeping comments about the "juvenile" nature of a gaming community.
• Someone calls said figure out on those comments.
• Gaming community doesn't respond to questions, says outside world doesn't "understand", "he's just like that", "they're not listening to us anyway".

Pop quiz: Where's that vicious circle...

@mutha3 said:

I'm not sure what depresses me more -- the incident described in the article, or some of the dumb shit I've read in this comment section. Turns out nerds and conversation about fair treatment of women doesn't go well together, what a shock!

Sigh.

Things turned ugly way too fast here. Can't we be respectful to each other and have a calm, adult conversation even though we have differing social views?

Get both sides patrick.watch li joe stream and stop slamming the fgc.

I know this is a horrible thing to say, but I take one look at this Bakhtanians guy and it ain't surprising in this slightest that he might possibly have a less-than-favorable opinion about how to treat women.

Never heard of any of the people metioned in this article but it was a terrific read thanks @patrickklepek

All I can say that this Bakhtanians guy seems like a tosser too me.

@akumous said:

This article is premature and shouldn't have been published....here's a link to Miranda's tweet and here's what she said:

Miranda Pakozdi ‏ Super__Yan

"I think I may have overreacted about GiantBomb and Destructoid's articles about the harassment incident. Not used to articles involving me."

Miranda was stressed not only by Aris antics but by the show's format...she just couldn't take it anymore. In respects of Aris, harassment...lol...women are funny human beings...I said that because early on in the show she found the attention amusing and entertaining but I said earlier a lot of factors contributed to her bad experience and not the "exaggerated" sexual harassment issue.

EVERYONE on the show is under extreme stress and pressure. It was likened to EVO finals that lasted 12+ hours a day for a week straight, and you cannot do or say anything Capcom won't let you and you can't go anywhere but the Capcom offices and the hotel really. Like, you cannot swear at all on the stream/at the offices during the event except for "damn", if you do, you have to wear a nasty horsehead for 15 minutes for each word.

This type of culture is found in basically every online game; it is by no means exclusive to fighting games.

This Aris guy might be a douchebag, but who cares? Why do people think they somehow have the right to not be offended? If I'm talking shit about broads who play video games then just mute me. People need to stop being so indignant. Life is unfair and people are mean, suck it up.

@SlightConfuse said:

Get both sides patrick.watch li joe stream and stop slamming the fgc.

I don't understand you people, Patrick didn't say shit. Aris is the one saying the FGC is a cesspool.

Ok guys listen and Patrick please listen up and be a real Brono and update your story with more facts.

Patrick you ran this story this quick and did less research than I did last night on the story. You are making the fighting game community look very bad by not telling everything. People wont give you interviews and were told not to by players and friends because you would skewing this one way and you are Dtiod are. Feel free to PM me so I can fill you in on alot of the things you dont know about. I was listening in to calls from Sherry Jenix, Aris and Dr. Sub Zero (who by the way has a site that gives out gamer girl nudes and was still invited by Capcom to be on the show and who Miranda/Superyan really likes alot) to player LI Joe explained the whole situation lets start at the beginning though:

1. SuperYan Miranda in her Cross assault video said she was extremely competitive and loved the community and wanted to win the money to help buy new machines and equipmnt for Nor Cal arcades. She would later quit a as stated in the news article and proved all her above statements false and perpetrate the current girl gamer stereotypes. Aris is a nice guy. I've watched more hours of streams with Aris than Miranda/Superyan has spent time around him. He's raw, he's different and he wont change. Capcom wanted him for that and Aris did talk with them about how he usually is and they were okay with that.

2. At the show when the first comments about Miranda happened on day 2 or 3 of the show female game Starslay3r tweeted Miranda and told her she shouldn't take those comments about her thighs and other off-color comments people in the stream online and people on team tekken as well. SuperYan basically laughed at everything they said the rest of the day and essentially said that Starslay3r lies about her involvement in the FG community and doesn't know what she was talking about. At this point Miranda was fully okay with everything going on and being said about her and was proud to tell another girl player who she doesn't like off.

3. Cut to a few days later everyone is tired and the show is dragging on far too long. Miranda can't take the pressure of such a harsh schedule and starts really feeling neglected and honestly didn't think she would get that far and just wants it to end so she quits. The show by yesterday has become work and a chore for everyone. I didn't watch that much of team tekkens stream but a few dirty jokes and cameras zoomed in on Miranda and other guy's body parts did happen. Its the same stuff that goes on on any stream. Thats how aris is at. That was Haunts (the streamer) and Capcoms fault for letting that rock. They should have had a man in every room to just keep things as spotless as possible but they didnt. Honestly she wasnt ready for all that attention. Yes guys were making jokes you should only make in a room with guys yes cameras went to body parts that they shouldnt have once or twice. But this is commonplace on any streams. Even girl gamers streaming from time to time give fanservice and put the camera on their boobs while they play a game and wear low cut tops.

4. So last Night on LI Joe's Stream Aris and Players on team street fighter Sherry Jenix and Dr. Subzero called in. You can check out the video here. Other players who were there and big names in the fighting game community also called in so you should check it out.

Cross assault Team Street Fighter Player Dr. Sub Zero at 5:15:30 http://www.twitch.tv/thisislijoe/b/309985394

Cross Assault Team Street Fighter Player (the only other female player there) Sherry Jenix at 5:35:30 in the above video

Team Tekken Coach Aris http://www.twitch.tv/thisislijoe/b/310014836 at 29:00 minutes

During the calls Dr Subzero said she cracked and didnt know what she was getting into. Sherry (again the only other girl on the show) said Superyan never communicated any problems to Aris. Sherry defended Aris and said Aris isnt being sexist and that Superyan didnt speak up. She also says Aris talked to her and apologized. Aris called in next. Everyone is tired and no one is having fun he says. He said no one expected this not even the Capcom USA people. "I was exactly how they expected me to be." He goes on to say that he's been treating all people the same and that no one is in trouble for what happened and that it's been really draining and hard on everyone.

Also one thing you guys aren't hearing is that alot of the players in the community including females are upset with her for not sticking up for herself until now, quiting and taking up a wasted spot on a show, and most of all not playing that match. She could have forfeited if she won too but the golden rule in the community is always play the match because in the end its about competition and the games.

I dont really get where Patrick is talking about Superyan playing Ken yesterday. Everyone was passed out or not into it on stream yesterday all day at practive. there was not really any practicing going on by any player except for Coach Alex Valle and Renic.

Capcom is to blame for alot of this and none of this is being put on them. Even some people on Team Tekken side are blaming Namco for a few things too including Superyan and Bronson.

Please fix your story Patrick Giant Bomb and Destructiod shouldnt do the fighting game community like this especially when its just starting to get big.

To me this isn't even about the FGC I know one guy being a dick dosn't mean everyone is , I hate when people do that but there are people here defending him really? I don't even want to get into the whole sexism I had my fill of dumb arguments about that in the Mass Effect 3 forums , but that guy is a pig there's nothing arround that if you defend him it's because you agree on what he said.

You'd think that people trying to make a -profession- out of gaming would grasp how stupid it is to alienate people away from your sport.  But I guess there's always going to be some bad apples, public shaming and exclusion is the best option I can think of.

@bvilleneuve said:

@Gorkinlot said:

Of couse Bakhtanians wont reply... fucking douche. Great write up Patrick! The fighting game community should distance themselves from people like Bakhtanians.

I'm not quite comfortable with this. Let me correct it for you.

"Of course Bakhtanians won't reply. I don't blame him. He said some foolish things about a community and it's now blowing up around him."

Calling the guy a "fucking douche" isn't going to help anything. He's a guy who says provocative things for attention. He's a Jeremy Clarkson.

Give me a break man.Do you disagree the guy is a douche? No? GTFO

Rape jokes are really funny, right guys?

i'm more shocked by the fact that someone would even bother to take the time to record someone's uniformed, nearly unintelligible thoughts, let alone follow that interview up with an article. what do we not already know about this type of behavior, especially as it pertains THIS culture? regardless of the intentions of the writer or interviewer, you don't reinforce that kind of behavior by giving the person more attention. this is common sense people. by doing so, you're providing them a stage for them to act out, which is really all they want. and if you think public embarrassment is the be-all, end-all, solution, you better think again. if there aren't any real consequences involved for the person, what do they have to be ashamed about?

i'm skeptical of people's intentions. my theory is that many who strongly claim to air on the side of reason, and openly acknowledge that they would like to see improvement (within a community) of a kind, at least unconsciously, would actually prefer things not to change, and stay mired in the muck. if the goal is mediocrity, than there will never be a shortage of opportunity i suppose. and besides, what's not to like about a culture that allows (rewards) people to indulge in any impulse or whim without any fear of repercussion or being ostracized--because inherently, others within that very community are consensually obligated, and doing the exact same thing.

if we can expect this kind of mentality and behavior, and it's clearly overt and in your face already, consider what may lurk just beneath the surface. that's the real discussion imo, and unfortunately, i don't think we're even close to being prepared to talk about it in any kind of open forum.

what i've consistently found in my conclusion, is that this community/culture is a proud degenerative, inarticulate one, that champions anomie over irony, and hysterics over critical thinking. it is a culture built upon a tacit agreement, where people should never feel pressured to conduct themselves responsibly, with self-respect, and in an articulate manner that acknowledges a need for that gesture to be returned. it is a cultural ghetto if there ever was one, and one where people like mr. bakhtanians will continue to have precedence, and perhaps even dominance.