It seems like from watching all the interviews and developer diaries on this game that Treyarch has had an axe to grind with sniping since the first planning meeting of this game. At launch the sniper classes were basically what you should choose if you wanted to have your ass handed to you in anything except Search and Destroy. We've been promised measures that will level the playing field but even after a title update that was supposed to "fix" the sniper rifles to make them more competitive, they're still impractical to use because of several issues.
First, The sniper rifie, by design, is best used at a distance and with the exception of 1 map (Array) that's IMO actually best suited for it, most of the maps are not. Most of the maps have a tight corridors or such a limited number of sniping positions, many of which that are easily flanked from multiple angles, that choosing a sniper class often becomes a recipe for failure
The other problem besides the map design is that the sniper rilfes in this game just don't handle as well. The generous aim assist that was present in Modern Warfare 2 has been dialed back in this game and as such, sniping requires more precision. Conversely most of assualt rifiles, LMG's and even SMG's in this game handle better and are more than capable of taking out the same target at medium to long range. As if making a sniper's primary weapon nearly useless by comparison wasn't enough, Treyarch also dialed down the damage dealt by the pistols in this game effectively leaving a cornered sniper without a close range weapon to fend off a rushing opponent, again leaving the deck stacked against a sniper.
The final nail in the coffin for the snipers, which is one i don't really have a problem with "on paper", is the decision to take measures against quick scoping. In case anyone doesn't know what that is, just go to youtube and type in quickscoping and see for yourself. Now i'll be the first to admit the rage that consumed me when a quickscoper would decimate my entire team in MW2, but coupled with the rest of the changes listed above, this just comes off as overkill. The snipers are effectively nearly useless class unless you need a last resort tool to take out a person who's been dug-in a particular location and all other efforts have failed.
In short, i think Treyarch has made a fantastic multiplayer game. I enjoy it even though i have my opinion on things that could be made different just as i'm sure you have yours. Still, it's a bummer to see a whole class of weapons rendered useless because of abuse they've suffered in the past (and I admit that they WERE abused in previous games). The draw to CoD multiplayer for me has always been the different play styles all being thrown into the same game creating a delightfully fun sense of chaos that i don't want to see reduced to 12-18 guys running around with the same 3 weapons.
Call of Duty: Black Ops
Game » consists of 19 releases. Released Nov 09, 2010
The seventh installment of the long-running action franchise, Call of Duty: Black Ops puts players into the early era of the Cold War (including the Vietnam War) as a member of the United States black operations unit known as the SOG.
Why does Treyarch have so much hate for sniping in this game?
It seems like from watching all the interviews and developer diaries on this game that Treyarch has had an axe to grind with sniping since the first planning meeting of this game. At launch the sniper classes were basically what you should choose if you wanted to have your ass handed to you in anything except Search and Destroy. We've been promised measures that will level the playing field but even after a title update that was supposed to "fix" the sniper rifles to make them more competitive, they're still impractical to use because of several issues.
First, The sniper rifie, by design, is best used at a distance and with the exception of 1 map (Array) that's IMO actually best suited for it, most of the maps are not. Most of the maps have a tight corridors or such a limited number of sniping positions, many of which that are easily flanked from multiple angles, that choosing a sniper class often becomes a recipe for failure
The other problem besides the map design is that the sniper rilfes in this game just don't handle as well. The generous aim assist that was present in Modern Warfare 2 has been dialed back in this game and as such, sniping requires more precision. Conversely most of assualt rifiles, LMG's and even SMG's in this game handle better and are more than capable of taking out the same target at medium to long range. As if making a sniper's primary weapon nearly useless by comparison wasn't enough, Treyarch also dialed down the damage dealt by the pistols in this game effectively leaving a cornered sniper without a close range weapon to fend off a rushing opponent, again leaving the deck stacked against a sniper.
The final nail in the coffin for the snipers, which is one i don't really have a problem with "on paper", is the decision to take measures against quick scoping. In case anyone doesn't know what that is, just go to youtube and type in quickscoping and see for yourself. Now i'll be the first to admit the rage that consumed me when a quickscoper would decimate my entire team in MW2, but coupled with the rest of the changes listed above, this just comes off as overkill. The snipers are effectively nearly useless class unless you need a last resort tool to take out a person who's been dug-in a particular location and all other efforts have failed.
In short, i think Treyarch has made a fantastic multiplayer game. I enjoy it even though i have my opinion on things that could be made different just as i'm sure you have yours. Still, it's a bummer to see a whole class of weapons rendered useless because of abuse they've suffered in the past (and I admit that they WERE abused in previous games). The draw to CoD multiplayer for me has always been the different play styles all being thrown into the same game creating a delightfully fun sense of chaos that i don't want to see reduced to 12-18 guys running around with the same 3 weapons.
Shitty map design is the biggest issue of Blops imo. Like I've said numerous times.
The maps affect the entire flow of the game. The ones in Blops like you mentioned practically cripple proper sniping into uselessness. The obvious "sniping spots" are just that: super obvious and also very exposed. Maps are tiny and cluttered with a huge amount of barriers and obstacles with little open ground, making snipers basically frag bait.
It's the same map design that enables people to just run around and top charts with knifes only (people like me)
There is effectively no actual long range on the maps, all encounters are short to medium range which SMGs and assault rifles are more then capable of handling.
About handguns, I would disagree, this is not a weakness at all. Carry a Python with a speed loader or dual wield them. A python fires very fast and at short range kills in 2 shots, 3 at long range making it a very powerful weapon. You can practically snipe with a single python or use two as shotguns basically.
I have nothing to add on quick scoping. Never liked it never will. It's a bastardization of a sniper that was born by exploitation of game mechanics. The sooner this term dies out the better.
However I have met people who can do it still with a degree of success in Blops. It just requires you to be really good now.
PS: If you truly want to snipe play BFBC2, it's very rewarding getting a head shot from half a kilometer away.
PSS: It's even more rewarding hoofing it behind enemy lines and taking the snipers dogtags.
Cod 4 and 6 were just bad for sniping. Cod 4 everyone just ran around like idiots with acogs 360 no scoping and stupid stuff like that. MW2 I just went around spraying my barret not worrying about having to get my secondary out ever. Fair enough the games meant to be fun. But the sense of realism should be there and reward you for playing like a sniper actually would. I find it fun when snipers are a niche class and play the support role. Ive got UAV, counter UAV and napalm strike just because it feels the sort of job a sniper would do. I run around with pistol out when I change spots, something I would never bother doing in the last couple of games.
Also the fact that every rifle / smg is ultra accurate with little to no recoil, and every shot messes up the snipers aim more than any other gun
Really hate to say this but I think mw2 had better balance than Black ops. Everything was so crazy unbalanced yet because of that almost every playstyle was good. Fuck even the lmg's were good in mw2
It's not that they hate sniper rifles it's that for the longest time sniper rifles in call of duty games have been fucking jacked.
Under no circumstances should a person be able to instantly bring up a rifle and have perfect accuracy or be able to do four 360 spins and manage to pull off a perfectly accurate shot. What these people were doing was a known issue with the game were simply tapping the left trigger was enough to register you as "fully scoped" which allowed you full accuracy. It was dumb bullshit that needed to go away and as a result sniping is definitely harder but i'd argue it's more rewarding now when you manage to do it well.
I mean look at stupid shit like this:
That's dumb.
This is what should happen and I'm glad that it does...
...all the time now.
The maps not being geared towards sniping however I can't really say to much on. From the time I've spent playing the game they feel about the same as the range of maps in MW2. There is the one huge map, the one tiny map, the mid range maps, the meat grinder, and the straight map. To each their own though.
Bottom line though they definitely did something good cause eliminating 360 quick scope nonsense needed to happen.
Also worth noting that they did release a patch recently that raises the chances you'll get a headshot with every rifle so you may want to give them a try again. Headshots are much easier to get now but still requires a bit of skill.
" It's not that they hate sniper rifles it's that for the longest time sniper rifles in call of duty games have been fucking jacked.
Under no circumstances should a person be able to instantly bring up a rifle and have perfect accuracy or be able to do four 360 spins and manage to pull off a perfectly accurate shot. What these people were doing was a known issue with the game were simply tapping the left trigger was enough to register you as "fully scoped" which allowed you full accuracy. It was dumb bullshit that needed to go away and as a result sniping is definitely harder but i'd argue it's more rewarding now when you manage to do it well.
I mean look at stupid shit like this:
That's dumb.
This is what should happen and I'm glad that it does...
...all the time now.
The maps not being geared towards sniping however I can't really say to much on. From the time I've spent playing the game they feel about the same as the range of maps in MW2. There is the one huge map, the one tiny map, the mid range maps, the meat grinder, and the straight map. To each their own though. Bottom line though they definitely did something good cause eliminating 360 quick scope nonsense needed to happen. Also worth noting that they did release a patch recently that raises the chances you'll get a headshot with every rifle so you may want to give them a try again. Headshots are much easier to get now but still requires a bit of skill. "
Nicely done...I fucking hate that in shooters where people can use sniper rifles in split seconds...professional snipers lay in wait....in perfect areas...with guns perched AND they have to do calculations on their scope BEFORE taking the shot. Sniper Rifles being as ridiculous as they were was just annoying...try playing Counter Strike...Sweet Jesus
It's hard to begrudge treyarch for trying to create a level playing field for everyone. In games like COD3 the snipers made the larger maps their own play-ground, and to a similar extent World at War. The problem is they've nerfed the weapon class back so much that, for me at least, I feel as if I need to use the ACOG to get a decent aim in the tighter corridors. My favorite maps are those that cater to both types: tighter, multi-opened corridors for close-mid range, and the larger sections for snipers to have their own fun.
Sniping is definitely harder in Black Ops than previous Call of Dutys, but I have actually been able to get pretty good with it. I never really played as a sniper since COD2, and once I got bored in Black Ops I decided to try it out. At first, it definitely seemed like it was useless, but you eventually get a feel for it. I think my K:D with the L96A1 is something like 3.7, though admittedly I often die at close range after switching to my pistols (something like a .7 K:D ratio). I've been using the SR-71, Chopper Gunner, and Attack Dogs killstreaks and have gotten them a fair number of times.
I don't mean to simply be bragging, just saying that it is possible to do well once you adjust your playstyle.
My sniper loadout:
L96A1, Variable Scope
Dual Pythons (using dual pistols allows for a new, fully-loaded pistol in Last Stand)
Tomahawk
Claymore
Ghost Pro
Scout Pro (once you get this, fighting at close range is much easier)
Last Stand Pro
One other tip is to always switch out your secondary as soon as you walk over a new weapon. I'm almost always carrying a sniper rifle and an AR/SMG. Also, I should mentioned that I play primarily CTF and I mostly stay on defense, though I do sometimes capture the enemy flag and I'm not a bitch who won't chase a flag carrier out into the middle of the map.
i think it's because they wanted the game more balanced. people use to quick scope all the time. if people actually did do that in real life they would miss because they can't aim.
they should upgrade it a little bit because now they are under powered. it makes sniping bad. my friend snipes all the time and i have to hear him complain about how the sniper didn't kill that guy.
The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above. That is retarded.Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!"
M40, Variable Scope (this adds range so you get more one-shot kills)
Hmm, the M40 isn't in this game and the variable scope has no effect on range.
@OldManLight said:
" @mason_patGuns in video games should almost never be dictated by their real life counterparts. That said, @mason_pat actually meant it's a one hit kill from the stomach or above, or so some of the latest videos to come out claim.The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above. That is retarded.Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!" "
It's an issue of balance between the sniper rifles. There's almost no advantage to using the L96A1 now.
" @mason_patIf every gun in the game was directly based off their real life counterparts, everyone would go down in 1-2 shots.The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above. That is retarded.Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!" "
Plus the main reason Snipers got irritating is because of every little retard thinking they should run around and 360'ing off of every thing they can think of. Quickscoping really didn' t bother me all too much but I think at this point it seems to be just right.
i agree with most of what you are saying
however pythons are a snipers best friends especially dual wielding them with slight of hand it makes you feel like the real john wayne and most people are not expecting them
" @Infininja: Sorry, L96A1. And I'm pretty sure the Variable Scope adds some green to the range bar, or it at least did at one point. "The in-game bars lie to you. Tell me, what does range even mean to you in relation to how guns function in the game?
The only thing the variable scope does is replace the regular scope with a variable scope. The gun itself functions the same.
Black Ops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modern Warfare 2
That's all I'm going say on this subject. Now if you excuse me, I'll be playing B:BC2.
" Black Ops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modern Warfare 2The spoiler is a lie.
That's all I'm going say on this subject. Now if you excuse me, I'll be playing B:BC2.
"I'm not in the anti-Call of Duty union. Both the Call of Duty and Battlefield franchise are good. You hear me? They're both great franchises!
" @GhostlyEnigma said:The ca... Nah, forget it. It's been done to death." Black Ops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Modern Warfare 2The spoiler is a lie. "
That's all I'm going say on this subject. Now if you excuse me, I'll be playing B:BC2.
"I'm not in the anti-Call of Duty union. Both the Call of Duty and Battlefield franchise are good. You hear me? They're both great franchises!
I'm sorry. I think what you really meant to say was "why does Black Ops hate quick-sniping cocksuckers so much?". The answer is "because being a quick-sniping cocksucker does not mean you have any skill".
I love how all the bitches complain about Black Ops. At work, all day long, kids complain that they can't use their cheap ass bullshit from Modern Warfare 2 anymore, and then I laugh at them and say "then go play an inferior game!" and point at Modern Warfare 2.
Seriously, Black Ops is the tightest game that has released under the Call of Duty banner since CoD2. Love it every time I pop it in.
In any event, it clearly works for me, so I'm happy.
The only gun where a scope affects damage drop off (the only measurable thing pertaining to range, where the in-game stat bars aren't lying to you) in this game is putting an ACOG on the python, which increases the distance it does max damage.
I'm not saying the variable scope is a bad attachment, but the only benefit it is giving you is being able to zoom less or more.
Yeah have to say I've never regularly a sniper in black ops, most rifles are just as accurate and do almost as much damage. When you have to put two rounds into someone and then they just go into second chance...you leave yourself waay to open to counter attack. I'm liking black ops but it has the same problem as with World at War, crazy spawns, too often you get put right beside 3 enemies, I don't remember call of duty 4 having this issue.
I am completely happy that they toned down the sniper rifles. Sniper rifles were the worst part of Modern Warfare 2 for me, and that stupid 360 thing is ridiculous.
Actually proper snipers are pretty gimped in Blops too.
I hate quick scoping as much as any other dude, but in Blops hard scoping is completely ineffective also. Any sniper thinking he can hard scope in Blops get quickly taken out by an assault rifle or a knife in the back. The people who can make it work are very very rare.
omg it's not getting easier for me at all to snipe in this game . It has a totally different feeling than what I'm used to in MW2 . That said, I think I might get better at it when I play with the sniper (L96A1) more.
For those who say snipers should be like real life . I don't want a real life in gaming . I bought this game to have fun , to break the monotony of "real life" . A good player is a good player no matter how "unbalanced" a game is . They always find their way around...I'm talking about mw2 here . I think black ops should have been the same as mw2 only with further improvement from mw2 as their example .
This shit generally falls under the "Good job, you fucked it.." category. At first sniping in Modern warfare 2 was pretty good, you shot people from a safe vantage point like any other man with long ranged weaponry. But then children and SUPER HARDCORE MLG LEET happened and the game was ruined forever.
" @mason_patIf you shot a sniper like you do in Black Ops you would be sitting on your ass trying to figure out which way is up. Give and take.The PSG with no attachments is a semi-automatic 1 hit kill from the chest or above. That is retarded.Disagree, upper chest, head , and neck should be a 1 shot kill period. If a sniper bullet hit you there IRL, you'd likely bleed out before the guy next to you could scream "MEDIC!" "
It seems to me that it's just fine. People are just ticked because snipers can't get that perfect crow's nest. They actually have to watch their backs, just like the rest of the players. They can actually be shot back just like the rest of the players.... I dunno... The problem was getting to be that in the previous CoD games, once someone got their sniper nest going, they were unstoppable - and that's simply ridiculous. As for an entire class being rendered useless.... yer doin it wrong then. I have seen plenty of maps, all CtF's, where sniping works just fine as long as you're doing it right. Shoot, displace, shoot displace. Don't expect to stay in one fucking spot and own the entire map.
In my opinion, the developers at Treyarch noticed the constant quick-scoping sniping kills that were taking place in Modern Warfare 2, and they wanted to make it so that you had to actually look down the scope and look for that next kill instead of getting cheap kills (like the AWP spam you see on Counter-Strike: Source on the CS_Office Level). I was never a big fan of sniping online (no fun camping out waiting for your prey), so it does not bother me at all. It was annoying in MW2 how it happened all of the time, but at least in Black Ops, the number of snipers to me seems lower than other classes.
" @Rockdalf I'm not disagreeing with you and I prefer to crouch or prone when sniping but the map design mostly prohibits that. And the same could be said about most of the guns in the game. "Exactly my point. The game is an arcade shooter, not a realistic shooter. Loosely based on reality at best. If they actually configured maps to allow a realistic sniper rifle to work, there would be no point in anyone picking any other weapon. I understand it's possible to have a map where the games snipers work better, but to say that it should kill in one shot to the chest is completely missing the point. ANY gun here should kill in one to three shots to the chest, at the very least they shouldn't be sprinting around a corner after receiving fire and walking it off.
From my experience, it mostly boils down to map layout. The more I think about it, the more maps come up that are somewhat sniper friendly. The major problem is that most areas are built to make nesting impossible due to several entrances. The other is making most high places are risk/reward with being more exposed.
I think my main gripe though is that instead of feeling like a more slow/tactical class, it feels just a bit more towards sluggish/luck.
Here's another example; was testing out the wager game today and there's the gun game where with each kill you get a new (better) gun. And for a while, it really felt like the more you killed, the better it went because you got better guns. Until I got a Sniper rifle and I felt like I took three steps back and had to work around the gun rather than with it.
In a way I am still undecided. But right now, it's easier to 'snipe' with an assult rifle sporting an acog than an actual sniper rifle. But Iam realizing I am having to re-learn things in a slightly different way now.
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