Discussing sex and gender in the industry: Why so toxic?

Because it's an incredibly nuanced and complex topic that everyone on the Internet thinks they have all figured out.

I wrote up a few paragraphs in response, but it isn't going to solve anything. To summarize what I wrote, I'm a jaded ass hole and humanity is desensitized to atrocities due to the news and the decades of fear nuclear proliferation wrought. So nobody really cares anymore, and things like equal pay for women aren't even the tiniest blip on societies radar (think of society as the people who continue to give Tyler Perry money and make TLC a popular channel).

Damn all these discussions and so few hit in on the head imo. "People are assholes!" men or women. I grew up with 4 older sisters, and I was raise by my mother basically by herself. I have seen sexism in its worst form happen to my own families. Where my sister's boss basically told her to take off her cloth in the middle of the office as to "lighten the mood". As a child, I love to cook. I was the only boy in the cooking class in high school, you guys think some men in gaming are monsters? The level of harassment I went through just because I took a fucking cooking class was disgusting and the harassing was done by women.

People are fucking assholes, men and women. Call them out, ignore them or take legal action are all you can do as a person. An internet discussion is great, I especially love this community but lets not be ignorant idealist and think that just by talking about it a lot the problem will go away. The only reason people are not constantly murdering each other is because it is illegal and there are actual consequences for that. Until there is a way to bring actual real world consequences to internet assholes, this will continue to happen.

Sure, I'll tackle this before I go run. Sentence for sentence.

I agree, but people on tumblr aren't the scope of the issue. The fact that you're calling it nonsense proves it is an issue. Agreed, it's about attitudes in the industry, not about characters showing skin. Anita has a point, but isn't going about it the right way. Are you saying women are a minor demographic? Bankrupt the industry? That sounds pretty alarmist to me.

I don't think you'll get banned, but hugbox? Really? Just because people don't agree with you?

The issue for articles at least is that topics that are bound to cause a lot of discussion require a more subtle approach and that can get lost in writing. Commenters on the internet then often respond immediately with statements that are not fully considered because they didn't take the time to really stop and reflect.

Then writers respond to the vitriol in a way that welcomes trolls and more snap, immediate responses. You see this a lot with people who call out commenters that yell about reviews. The writers feel better in the moment because they call out bad users and the bad users are reinforced to do bad because they were mentioned. It's all just a viscous cycle.

I don't know why people can't handle women who are in roles other than where they are assumed to typically be (I suppose?). I saw this happen first hand with the many female bosses I've had over the years. From that experience I've learned that most assertive female women are inevitably going to be called a 'bitch' because they make demands and have high expectations. I never got it. It's amazingly juvenile.

Last one for a bit, I swear.

I remember seeing a documentary about the Internet in education a few years back. In it, the reporter discussed how South Korea has an Internet etiquette ( I refuse to write that as one word) program in schools. Also, to prevent cyber-bullying, you need to register your residence registration number and real name to post. I think people would think twice in engaging in twitter hate-fests if there was some accountability for their actions.

Everyone is allowed to write whatever they want, including criticism of stories that are overly cliched or stereotypical to the point of being offensive. The games industry can write games that have only male protagonists and poorly written, stereotypical female side characters for every AAA game from now until infinity, and I can write that I find those stories to be extremely uncreative, boring and sexist.

This is not a discussion of censorship. Criticism is not censorship. There is no restriction happening anywhere due to any of this discussion. You are derailing this topic.

Why do people in the same job earn more if they have a dick than if they dont? Why is it that the only profession that women earn more than men on average are the Porn industry, and strippers? Shits fucked and it won't change overnight, we are still struggling with racism for some reason, but each generation that passes, more and more people are more and more tolerant. Basically what I'm saying is once we die the world will probably be a better place! Yay for nihilism!

I agree, everyone knows slavery and women's rights come only from black people's efforts and women's efforts respectively! Because white men aren't the target of those things, us white-ys can't empathize with them and work to change it! Oh wait, I'm mildly educated in history and sociology. I guess I don't agree with such a blatantly flawed statement. What you are doing is a form of informal fallacy called a scarecrow tactic which I'm sure confuses you at that term but I urge you to Google it and educate yourself. Here I'll do that for you

@musai: that registration thing is done in most modern asian countries(i do not know about EU). You basically need to enter your social in order to do anything online but it is easy enough to go use a site that let you remain anonymous and a lot of people prefer to use those sites. In any case, yea real world consequences and having to take actual responsibility for what you say will definitely stop a lot (if not most) of those dumb ass people.

I agree with you that you have every right to say you don't approve of something. However I disagree if you say that the intent of many of these threads is not to cast shame upon creators in an effort to get them to curtail their own personal tastes. If the theme of the average "games are sexist thread" is I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it, I hear precious little of the second half of that statement.

@shinjin977: Agree 100%. So few people understand the complexity of the world; it is not black and white.

A lot of people feel that this discussion is threatening their hobby or changing it into something that they don't want it to be. When other people say "this shit is fucked", they, perhaps understandably, get defensive and say "but I like that shit, stop trying to change the shit that I like!"

There's, of course, room for both and no one is making the things you like go away. Your fun games outside the reach of THE FEMINIST AGENDA are always going exist. But when you get a bunch of people together (on the internet of all places) who are passionate about something, common sense doesn't really apply anymore.

Some of the stuff being said in this thread is realllll horrible.

@russman588: So, in a far-fetched hypothetical situation, you are in charge of what entertainment is released. You see a script for GTA V before it is released, and the final decision is on you. Would you allow it to be released?

Because a lot of the arguments made are sexist. Both ways.

I read a lot of them that pretty much sum up that women need to 'shut up and just live with less rights' and I've also read a lot of them that 'all guys everywhere are the cause of said less rights and it should be the other way around, not equal'.

The bad ones overshadow the ones that want to have it how it should be. Equal.

The conspiracies that people come up with as to why Patrick is still around are so insane and hilarious to me. Jeff has talked about it on Jar Time and his tumblr, and why he likes Patrick's stuff yet people still are hooked on Patrick for some reason, I really just don't get it.

Yeah, why the mods have not deleted that one dude's posts on the first page is completely beyond me. Embarrassing.

Side note and a little off topic, Patrick just posted this to Twitter and it's HILARIOUS.

@milkman: I'm missing context to the picture. Whoever made it; why are they saying to avoid these people?

@zevvion: Because they're "social justice warriors."

@milkman: Beat me to it. This is why we need to have this discussion over and over and over.

@musai: yep, the type of person who made that shitty graph-thing is totally tuning in and learning a whole lot about acceptance from this thread.

I see, thanks for the information.

@alecofthewest: You're right, if we don't talk about it and bury our heads in the sand, maybe it will all go away!

It just shows that that some people that play videogames are sexist and horrible in the same way as other facets of people. And when their hobby is changed in any way or they think that it's being threatened they react as if someone was stealing their baby. And people fail to see that this new group of people (not the sexist assholes, but people with a different gender, religion, race and so on) with a different view can actually contribute in new ways to the medium.

Videogames are my favourite videogames.

I love reading about video games, playing video games, and discussing video games. It kind of sucks that whenever I try to do that now, there's always somebody talking down to me about equality, misogyny, and diversity. I'm not looking for that, it isn't the hobby I signed up for, and even if it was what I wanted, I have no idea who would want to get feminist opinion pieces from people who are paid to play video games.

If they were just preaching about the way they think games should be, that would be one thing, but when they start criticizing games for not being that way (why does this protagonist have to be a man? her boobs should be smaller!), or when they belittle the people who enjoy games outside of their spectrum (it's for 14 year olds), then I think it crosses a line. By spewing your own vitriol in order to prove your points, you're inviting the toxicity of the people who don't agree with you.

As several people have already said in this thread, a lot of it has to do with tone. Just treat people on the opposite side respectfully, and try to be empathetic in the things you say. That's advice that both sides could stand to take.

^apologies for the wall of text, mobile site isn't letting me edit it.

Basically see UPF from 2 weeks ago, Vinny goes on to say, "The Internet just %&cking sucks"

Of course. I'm not going to cause a thing to not exist just because I have issues with it. Like I said, this has nothing to do with censorship.

I think you're taking discussion of sexism in games to be a lot more malicious than it actually is. If a game has flaws, we should discuss them. Not everyone is going to agree on whether something is a flaw in a specific game or not, whether it's game mechanics, story writing, graphics, music or anything else. Casting shame on creators is not a goal of mine, I don't think it's a goal of very many people.

I find a problem in these discussions that happens over and over again. If I say that Game A's story has a scene that comes across as sexist towards women, people will take that to mean that I believe that the person who wrote Game A's story is sexist. Meaning that that person believes women to be inferior to men, and that that person probably hates women, too. In reality, 95% of the time, I think the only thing that person is guilty of is casual sexism. They likely weren't thinking about the larger picture of how something will look or feel to someone who is thinking about gender and how it's portrayed in media. This might be on purpose, it might be accidental. Either way, I have nothing against them personally, but that's not going to stop me or anyone else from calling it out.

@milkman: sorry - been sleeping. It's all gone now. Not acceptable on any level.

Let's be nice. I don't mind if don't agree just don't be a jerk.

@psycosis: oh hi same I love videlgames!

Yes, sexism is indeed widespread in the gaming community. Almost every time a woman speaks up about sexism in the gaming industry (whether it's Zoe Quinn, Carolyn Petit, Anita Sarkeesian, etc.), you get hordes of sexist fanboys harassing them, threatening them, and trying to pretend sexism doesn't exist. It's ridiculous.

When the status quo changes people get paranoid. Even though the "social justice" element of the industry is a relatively small blip, it feels much bigger and scarier than it is since we've internalized the traditional tropes and social mores of video games, games journalism, and gamer culture in general, as just being "normal" to the point that we don't even really think about them. It's surprisingly easy to feel victimized when you're part of the overwhelming majority because it can seem like everybody just wants to steal a piece of what you have.

It's really the same reason why people with traditional values feel like their way of life is under "attack" by minority groups. They've internalized a society where their values and culture are accepted as "normal" and, from their perspective, any attempt to change that seems like you're taking a slice of their pie. And, to be fair, that IS what you're doing. You're saying "hey, this situation is unfair, give these people some of your cultural and social influence pie." and it makes perfect sense that people instinctively oppose this because it inherently lowers their worth. When women started voting, suddenly YOUR vote had half the power it once did if you're a man, and when black baseball players were accepted in the MLB, well suddenly that's a WHOLE new demographic you need to compete against if you want a spot on a team if you're white.

It's why empathy is important and not just some hippy bullshit concept. We're inherently unable to look past our biases (And if you think that you're "too smart" to be biased, then I've got some bad news for you...) The best you can hope to do is see things from other peoples' perspectives and try to understand where they're coming from. (And if your first reaction is to go "people disagree with me because they're not smart enough to understand my awesome opinions," then I've got even more bad news for you...)

Sorry, that kind of went off on a tangent there >_>

I was going to respond but you basically laid out exactly what i think about this. Two years ago this wasn't an issue in the forefront of people's minds even though it WAS an issue. Its not that I have problems with feminism its that I have problems with people using the guise of feminism to push other agenda. There are a ton of pro-sex feminists that I think are pretty rad people.

Kind of an old post to reply to, but I just got back home. It is juvenile. I always see people dismiss it by saying things like "Well, boys will be boys.", but that's just passing the buck. The generations that came before us had struggles to fight, at home and abroad. They fought in wars and fought in the streets for civil rights. What is our struggle, the great struggle of the 21st century? Our greatest challenge? Our legacy? "Um, yeah, can you not be such a dick to people who don't agree with you or share your worldview?" and we can't even do that. And no, I'm not just talking about one side of the SJW (as I now call it) movement.

Jeff just retweeted this:

I don't think people are against being progressive. It's the constant making mountains out of molehills, twisting a non-issue into an issue and the condemnation of those who don't think of it as an issue that can sometimes turn a well meaning movement into an inquisition in some people's eyes. Not that all the issues that have been discussed aren't non-issues. I dunno, I think people don't want life to be a fake stock photo of a workplace with a white person, black person, asian person, and hispanic person just to fill a quota. It's like artificial equality from fear of being called racist or sexist.

@russman588: I wouldn't use the word "malicious". I think that it's totally well-meaning in the same way that trying to keep the KKK from marching down a street is well-meaning.

I get the feeling we're not in direct disagreement and are instead arguing about what other people think. Nevertheless, I'll say again that you have every right to point out what you don't like about a game. Hell, you and everyone else here has a right to say anything. However, in my eyes there is an important line between "I didn't like what you said" and "You shouldn't have said it". The first represents a preference and the second a prerogative, i.e. a call for "right-thinking" media that conforms to a set of subjectively preferable social norms. There are plenty in these threads who call for the latter, but the former should be sufficient.

If people don't like a product, they won't buy it (at least in the margins, this will be perceptible). At that point all that is required of the consumers is to make clear what their reasons for not buying it were. If they are in the majority, the media will change. If they are in the minority, it will not, and either way no wrong has been committed.

@flacracker: I will be willing to bet that the world will still have plenty of racism, sexism, and homophobia(or whatever ism) a 100 years from now. Its just silly idealistic nonsense.

But leave it to Adam Sessler to tweet in hyperbole.

@flindip: I think he means that things are changing. I don't read it as he thinks all the -ism will be gone any time soon.

I agree completely. That more or less sums up a lot of my own thoughts on the issue.

Furthermore, there is a widespread culture of denialism, and that's partly why sexism and racism thrived for so long, and still do to an extent. Over a half-century ago, most people weren't openly sexist or racist, but they were simply in denial that there even was any sexism or racism, refusing to acknowledge it. While things have improved significantly since then, way too many people today believe these forms of discrimination were eradicated decades ago and are now in denial about sexism or racism still being prevalent today.

@grantheaslip: I guess to some extent the "there's no actual dialogue here" problem I have with the games press on this issue could be applied to nearly every other major controversy where they all participate in some sort of "ugh aren't these people just so awful and aren't we so enlightened" circle jerk. Hell, that picture posted earlier in this thread that Patrick apparently tweeted is exactly the kind of smarmy circling the wagons I cannot stand. What is that accomplishing except making yourselves feel better? Who is that helping? When I saw Patrick's "Social Justice Warrior" badge yesterday I just kind of groaned and rolled my eyes. You alluded to shitty partisan politics; that's totally what it brings to mind.

If people are so sure of themselves on this issue it would be interesting to actually see people unafraid to approach a critical opinion themselves. I realize Anita Sarkeesian is a lightning rod on this topic, but by far the worst thing she has contributed to this issue is that she outright refuses to allow anything but the most indirect feedback and engages basically no one outside of supporters or people who want her to do education work. It just reminds me of American cable news personalities that prefer to never invite people on who disagree with them, they just sit in their bubble, constantly reminding themselves of how righteous their cause is, and how evil those who disagree with them are. It's the absolute worst way to advance some sort of cause.

Though I guess you're right, that this issue certainly lacks basically any disagreement or lively debate within the press itself, even by past standards. At least with Mass Effect 3 or "Resolutiongate" or whatever shit was being stirred, there was always a few notables standing around demanding a more intelligent conversation beyond "the shitty, entitled, masses of the internet!" that just sounds like a curmudgeonly old man. There's literally no room for disagreement or debate here, because whenever even the most innocent of dissent is mentioned, immediately all sorts of words are put in their mouths.

The Escapist has some pretty low-rent show where they tackle a controversial issue at random, and back in January they did an episode on Sarkeesian that basically amounted to "we're tired of the strawmanning of people who disagree with Anita. It's okay to have different opinions, Anita just shouldn't have the only opinion. Here's what we think of her, let's all be super civil." Patrick immediately tweeted about it, getting hyper defensive over what was actually just kind of an incredibly boring and non-controversial video, and accused them of trying to insinuate Anita was a scam artist. Which, of course, they don't. Their video was basically about how the conversation surrounding Anita is so ridiculously sensitive and that people who defend her are so ready to jump the gun on anyone who disagrees with her, and vice versa, and then Patrick proceeds to prove their point.

A lot more headway could be made if people would just chill the fuck out and be able to handle an opposing viewpoint without their head exploding. One of the most important life lessons I've learned is that you don't have to be right about everything to still be right overall.

Jeff is an undercover Social Justice Warrior. (Social Justice Spy?!)

An ability to laugh at yourself would serve you well Patrick, if ya can't at-least chuckle and display some type of self awareness when trolls make relatively casual remarks about "social justice warrior" then it is going to be a long and bumpy ride. This is the biggest problem, it's ok to tackle these tough issues but the people supposedly standing up for a righteous cause do nothing but kick a hyper active hornets nest when confronted with 3rd grade trolling.