Let's have a talk about eBay prices, shall we?

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OwnlyUzinWonHan

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#1  Edited By OwnlyUzinWonHan

Hey ladies and gentlemen, it's been a very long time since I've been active on these boards, I used to have a decent presence on the Street Fighter IV forums, but those have obviously died down. Still continue to lurk on these forums and listen to almost every podcast that's made on this website, just not as active as I used to be. That's not what I wanted to talk about though, recently I've gotten into the selling some games and systems, like a couple of certain things that are coming out on Feb. 12th of this year on eBay. I promise not to advertise my eBay space because that's shady, but if you someone posting some things with a username that sounds intentionally dumb, chances are decent that it's me.

Now I don't do this to think "Oh, I think I'll just rip people off.", as was quoted by someone who messaged me but I did it to make money. Is that so shameful? Also got a message stating "Fuck u pig scalper", which I thought was just lazy. I mean seriously guys, it's video games, calm down. If you don't want it, purchase it elsewhere hell, purchase it THE SAME WAY I DID when multiple websites have stated how to avoid that second-hand marketplace markup. Those are the only two I can of from the last hour, but the fact that I had to say the last houris kind of crazy isn't it? Maybe I am pretty much 2015's Satan and I'm just too ignorant to know it and I'm probably being a bit oversensitive because it is the internet after all but seriously, why are people so angry about this? Are they not aware that much much much larger stores than a 23-year old guy sell their products for at least twice what they buy them for on a daily basis? That the last Under Armour shirt you purchase online probably cost that company $12.42 to purchase, and they sold it to you for $40? It happens all the time but when it comes to video games, let's get all huffy puffy I guess.

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I don't know guys, at least Lethal League's pretty cool.

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splodge

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I have no idea what you are talking about. What are you selling? Did you do something wrong?

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Corevi

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#3  Edited By Corevi
@splodge said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. What are you selling? Did you do something wrong?

He's scalping. Buying things that will be rare and then selling them for 2-5x their original value. Shit like the 20th Anniversary PS4 or the Majora's Mask 3DS.

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OllyOxenFree

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Yes, elaboration is needed. If you are marking up prices on amiibos, gamecube controller adapters, then I'll go by that gentleman's comment.

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splodge

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@corevi

Ah. Well.... great. Hope you are making lots of money, guy.

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brandondryrock

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Going off context clues, I'm guessing you pre-ordered some of the New Nintendo 3DS XLs, and you are then selling that pre-order, or you will ship the pre-ordered handheld once you receive it, and you're asking for more than retail, possibly twice as much?

I can understand why some people might find it scummy. I guess if you're desperate enough for a New Nintendo 3DS XL, they'll spend more than the MSRP.

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whitegreyblack

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#7  Edited By whitegreyblack

You could very well be a pig scalper, but it's not like the guy has to come right out and say it like that. ;-)

I'm not sure what this thread is for - are you looking for a bunch of people to validate your business practices without telling us what the heck you're actually up to? Or is this just veiled spam? This is weird. In before the lock, I guess.

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mbradley1992

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You say "Let's talk about prices" and then you don't really even describe what you're doing. Maybe because you can't think of a way to word it that doesn't make you sound like a scalper? So, let's assume that's what you're doing since your post is really lacking in true detail.

You are taking advantage of people who can't run to a store or website the minute something is announced to pre-order it. People who have full time jobs or kids or other responsibilities that keeps them from sitting in front of a computer waiting for every big announcement and product listing. There's no reason to do what you do other than for YOU to profit and make money. You don't help anyone. You don't provide a service. You buy up limited items for the sole purpose of getting greedy.

Also, to your "Under Armor does it!" point, the company making the item has already made the item, marked it up, and sold it. You don't get that right. You didn't make it. You didn't do anything but buy it to resell it. Why should you then get to raise the price again? It's not the same at all. It'd be if you bought that $40 Under Armor shirt and sold it again for $60. So your argument is false.

In case you don't understand economics, you are creating a falsely inflated market (not just you, but all the scalpers as a whole). Usually, those markets stifle the actual consumer markets involving the original producers.

Maybe find a way to make money by actually doing work and contributing to the economy.

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jaycrockett

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So, I guess the larger question is do resellers (i.e. scalpers) provide any value to the marketplace. One could argue that they do a service by setting the market price of an item based on supply and demand when the original producer is unwilling to do so for some reason. That's free market capitalism at work, in theory. If I want something more than you, I should be able to pay more to get it if there isn't enough to go around.

I personally don't deal with scalpers, it does seem to offend my sense of 'fairness', but I'm willing to admit that's just b.s. human psychology at play.

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brandondryrock

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#11  Edited By brandondryrock

@jaycrockett said:

So, I guess the larger question is do resellers (i.e. scalpers) provide any value to the marketplace. One could argue that they do a service by setting the market price of an item based on supply and demand when the original producer is unwilling to do so for some reason. That's free market capitalism at work, in theory. If I want something more than you, I should be able to pay more to get it if there isn't enough to go around.

I personally don't deal with scalpers, it does seem to offend my sense of 'fairness', but I'm willing to admit that's just b.s. human psychology at play.

You bring up some good points. I was trying to think of a situation with your comment where the scalper isn't re-selling tech or tickets, which seems to be the two markets that feature the most scalpers.

The situation I thought of was a farmer wanting to buy a cow. He has the money, but the person he was going to purchase the cow from already sold it, for the same price, to someone else who happens to be a scalper. The scalper's only intention in buying the cow is to turn around and sell it for more. He wasn't going to use it for food or milk or leather or anything else a cow can give to a human. Now the scalper wants double what the farmer was going to pay for it. The farmer can't afford it, now the scalper is left trying to find a buyer for a cow that he has no use for. If the farmer bought the cow, he could have used it to make products to give back to his community.

Obviously that is a very hypothetical situation, and has nothing to do with scalpers and the New 3DS. That's just the first scenario I came up with in my head, and was able to apply the argument to a different situation.

I don't have a problem with people reselling tech, but I don't like the idea of people buying tech, especially tech in limited quantities, for the sole purpose of turning around and selling it for a profit. You are taking away a $200 piece of tech from someone that could have been saving up for that, and now they have to pay $300 or maybe even more for it.

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Gaff

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#12  Edited By Gaff

Yeah, a combination of "First World Problems", "Video Games are SERIOUS BUSINESS", and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the market works.

Price is a factor of demand and availability, people.

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oldenglishc

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If the shoe fits...

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killer2m8o

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Scalp on Amazon. People just buy or don't, you'll take less abuse.

That the last Under Armour shirt you purchase online probably cost that company $12.42 to purchase, and they sold it to you for $40?

Also, Under Armour makes me laugh. I love people clothed in Under Armour logos - I just imagine them to be Fruit of the Loom logos. Dude, check out my sweet Fruit of the Loom jacket!

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mbradley1992

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#15  Edited By mbradley1992

@gaff said:

Yeah, a combination of "First World Problems", "Video Games are SERIOUS BUSINESS", and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the market works.

Price is a factor of demand and availability, people.

It's actually a fundamental misunderstanding to think that scalping is the "free market". There have been several research publications that have addressed the sporting event ticket market and other producer markets with resale scalping. Scalping creates artificial demand. In the short term, sure. It seems like it doesn't hurt anyone. In the long term, the producers will raise prices to try and fight the loss of profit by scalpers. Then, the resale market continues to raise prices, and as that happens, if you know anything about microeconomics, there is a point where the demand sharply declines due to the increase in price vs. the worth of the item. At that point, the market eventually collapses because of the artificial demand and increase in prices. Thus, scalpers quit buying because the return is poor, and the producers end up oversupplying. It balances out eventually, but it hurts the producer for an extended period.

NBA ticket sales were actually affected by this.

It's basic microeconomics, and it has been market tested and researched since about the 60s when the NFL got big.

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cornbredx

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You give no basis for your argument which usually happens when someone knows they're really at fault and they want others to make them feel better for the morally outrageous thing they are doing to someone else. You leave things out so people who look quickly over what you wrote will give some kind of feedback that makes you feel ok about it, because they don't realize they don't actually know what you're talking about.

I can't make you feel better about reselling rare-ish items you bought with no intention of using, but rather to increase demand, lower supply, and thus increase profits that go to you; other than to say if that's what you want to do to people it is still your right. Don't expect other people to be ok with it, though. Odds are good, since you made no attempt to actually explain what the situation is behind that message, that you deserved it. Otherwise you'd have no reason to leave it out when you so clearly needed affirmation that you wrote a forum post about whatever it is.

If you feel bad about what happened what you really should be asking yourself is "am I fucking people over"? If you aren't sure, ask someone close to you that you can actually tell the whole story to without lieing (lies include leaving stuff out, or changing the situation). If there is no one like that than you should probably seek help if you feel you cannot keep yourself from hurting other people in order to get through life (whether that be physically, emotionally, or spiritually).

If you did nothing wrong you'd have no reason for this post so I do not feel out of line explaining this. I am also not making accusation about your mental health, but rather I am describing examples since you leave out the purpose of this post and fail to describe what lead up to this situation which has you feeling emotionally entangled.

In short, if you did nothing wrong you wouldn't feel bad about it.

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locovoco

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My biggest issue with scalping is that it's not even so much taking advantage of scarcity as it is generating it yourself. It's inserting oneself into the loop as a middleman where there doesn't need to be a middleman. Unlike in the case of, say, Under Armour where there would be a substantial barrier to purchasing that shirt at $12 from whatever factory produced it, generally what is creating the barrier is the scalpers themselves. I'm not going to make a value judgment on doing so, but I certainly wouldn't see it as a high ground.

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Gaff

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@gaff said:

Yeah, a combination of "First World Problems", "Video Games are SERIOUS BUSINESS", and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the market works.

Price is a factor of demand and availability, people.

It's actually a fundamental misunderstanding to think that scalping is the "free market". There have been several research publications that have addressed the sporting event ticket market and other producer markets with resale scalping. Scalping creates artificial demand. In the short term, sure. It seems like it doesn't hurt anyone. In the long term, the producers will raise prices to try and fight the loss of profit by scalpers. Then, the resale market continues to raise prices, and as that happens, if you know anything about microeconomics, there is a point where the demand sharply declines due to the increase in price vs. the worth of the item. At that point, the market eventually collapses because of the artificial demand and increase in prices. Thus, scalpers quit buying because the return is poor, and the producers end up oversupplying. It balances out eventually, but it hurts the producer for an extended period.

NBA ticket sales were actually affected by this.

It's basic microeconomics, and it has been market tested and researched since about the 60s when the NFL got big.

I would have to see some citations before passing judgement (most papers I've Googled predate the emergence of Web 2.0, and a seeming majority seems to affirm that). Also, doesn't your premise ignore that scalpers actually need to sell their products, thereby putting an actual limit on the maximum price of a product? And isn't the ticket price analogy fundamentally flawed because a ticket to a sporting event is a "once in a lifetime" experience, instead of an actual physical product?

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OwnlyUzinWonHan

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@mbradley1992: I'm honestly not looking for reassurance, I'm saying that people should stop being crazy when they don't get what they want. The new 3DS will come again in more inventory, other than birthdays or anniversaries, I can't think of a situation in which you really need to have the newest tech the day of the release. Even bringing it back to video games, I could understand if it would provide you with a slight competitive edge, but that's going to go away if you just play. What edge do you gain by buying a 3DS on release day? Also, people who didn't preorder in time can just do what I did and just go to a GameStop and preorder it. I don't get the people who say even say "Sell it for retail and be better than those scalpers" either because most second hand marketplaces charge you commission on your sale.

As far as the Under Armour comment, I only stated it because I spent the majority of the day doing customer service for stores that sell their stuff and help people spend $60 on a shirt. Mbradley1992 (can't tag because I'm on my phone and I'm dumb) raises a good point in saying I don't make Zelda, but at the same time the majority of stores you'd purchase it from also doesn't make the stuff they're selling.

I've missed out on things I wanted that had a limited run because of scalpers, but I didn't send them demeaning messages, no matter how weak they're worded. I wanted to get one of those non-XL Zelda 3DS's a couple of years after they came out, but when I saw that they were selling for $300+, I laughed and walked away.

I had a guy send me a four paragraph essay on what Majora's Mask means to him talking about how it helped him get through his grandmother's death, and since I'm selling it for more than retail, I'm reminding him of that time. I know I'm kind of repeating myself at this point but guys, calm down, they're video games.

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mbradley1992

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#20  Edited By mbradley1992
@gaff said:

@mbradley1992 said:

@gaff said:

Yeah, a combination of "First World Problems", "Video Games are SERIOUS BUSINESS", and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the market works.

Price is a factor of demand and availability, people.

It's actually a fundamental misunderstanding to think that scalping is the "free market". There have been several research publications that have addressed the sporting event ticket market and other producer markets with resale scalping. Scalping creates artificial demand. In the short term, sure. It seems like it doesn't hurt anyone. In the long term, the producers will raise prices to try and fight the loss of profit by scalpers. Then, the resale market continues to raise prices, and as that happens, if you know anything about microeconomics, there is a point where the demand sharply declines due to the increase in price vs. the worth of the item. At that point, the market eventually collapses because of the artificial demand and increase in prices. Thus, scalpers quit buying because the return is poor, and the producers end up oversupplying. It balances out eventually, but it hurts the producer for an extended period.

NBA ticket sales were actually affected by this.

It's basic microeconomics, and it has been market tested and researched since about the 60s when the NFL got big.

I would have to see some citations before passing judgement (most papers I've Googled predate the emergence of Web 2.0, and a seeming majority seems to affirm that). Also, doesn't your premise ignore that scalpers actually need to sell their products, thereby putting an actual limit on the maximum price of a product? And isn't the ticket price analogy fundamentally flawed because a ticket to a sporting event is a "once in a lifetime" experience, instead of an actual physical product?

I studied this stuff a while back in college. If you give me a few hours, I can email and call some contacts and get the papers we studied. Sorry I don't have them. The necessity to sell is what drives the scalpers out. When the producers raise the price, the scalpers begin to have a lower volume of sales because the market's demand deflates and people quit buying. So the premise (not mine, I didn't do the research) takes that into account. It's the reason the market fails. When people quit buying, scalpers quit buying, leaving producers with oversupply and low demand. The "once in a lifetime" factor doesn't particularly change the long-term outcome because there's always going to be a "next season" (large profile games, like a division championship, are anomalies because they aren't just standard games; think more NBA games here than NFL). With producer products like gaming stuff, there isn't a "next" Majora's Mask New 3DS.

I'm not saying that the video game market is going to collapse here, FYI. I'm just saying that artificial demand is by no means "free market", but rather contrived market, capitalism, and is hurtful to the producers in the long-term.

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mikemcn

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If people want to buy stupid overpriced shit let them, if you were scalping heart meds, baby formula, or kidneys or something you'd be a monster but you're just bringing the supply to meet demand on stupid luxury goods people don't need.

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deactivated-601df795ee52f

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It's a gross practice but I can't pretend I wouldn't do it, being as broke as I am. If I can flip a dinky $13 amiibo for like $50, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

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BradBrains

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when I started selling and trading games 15 years go (in terms of collecting rather than just playing) it was a lot different. The people involved were into games and the love finding new and interesting games to play and collect. It was a passion project.

Now its not really like it.

A friend suggested I join a game collecting facebook page and I was totally turned off. everything was about money and people didnt seem to be having any fun. Apprently thats the landscape now.

Collecting is a big thing now. its almost a business .its not about sharing the love about games its about profits.

Im not saying people are wrong for trying to make money buts its not a scene for me anymore.

In saying that if your hoarding games simply to sell them for a overly inflated price later your kinda being skuzzy.

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mbradley1992

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#24  Edited By mbradley1992
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Corvak

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#26  Edited By Corvak

Regarding the comment - It's something between the seller, the potential buyer, and eBay's terms of service.

Personally, I understand that scalping is legal and based on supply and demand. But I still hate it. I don't care about the ideals of greed and capitalism. Do people love the medical insurance industry, fully legal yet still putting a price on a life? You'll probably make a quick buck from folks with more cash than brains but don't be surprised if people hate you for it.

I can hate on scalpers all I like though, it won't get better until companies stop underproducing to generate consumer frenzy.

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mikemcn

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#27  Edited By mikemcn

@mbradley1992 said:

@gaff said:

Yeah, a combination of "First World Problems", "Video Games are SERIOUS BUSINESS", and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the market works.

Price is a factor of demand and availability, people.

It's actually a fundamental misunderstanding to think that scalping is the "free market". There have been several research publications that have addressed the sporting event ticket market and other producer markets with resale scalping. Scalping creates artificial demand. In the short term, sure. It seems like it doesn't hurt anyone. In the long term, the producers will raise prices to try and fight the loss of profit by scalpers. Then, the resale market continues to raise prices, and as that happens, if you know anything about microeconomics, there is a point where the demand sharply declines due to the increase in price vs. the worth of the item. At that point, the market eventually collapses because of the artificial demand and increase in prices. Thus, scalpers quit buying because the return is poor, and the producers end up oversupplying. It balances out eventually, but it hurts the producer for an extended period.

NBA ticket sales were actually affected by this.

It's basic microeconomics, and it has been market tested and researched since about the 60s when the NFL got big.

A seller cannot create demand, that's not how a market works, they can bring people's attention to something they didn't know about before, people desire limited edition PS4's before they go on sale for example, but in the end their desire for that item is entirely their own fault. A supplier then meets that demand. Scalpers are just market entrants in the market for that product, they just do so on a vastly smaller scale. Call it abusive, call it impolite, call it crushing to the original producer of the scalped product, but it's 100% free market. It's illegal for things like tickets because in a completely free market it would happen often and producer lobbying has crushed it.

The market doesn't collapse when demand declines, the price adjusts accordingly, reselling does not change the quantity demanded of a product, it just means someone else gets the money. If people want 100 PS4's, 100 Ps4's are bought new, and then distributed, they may be sold again, they may be lit on fire, but at the origin, Sony gets the money they deserved. If they don't get their money it's a different failing on their end, they'll leave and someone who can do the job of selling consoles will enter.

If the market did collapse, why would car companies still pump out new cars? Growing up, my family went through 6 different cars, all used, were we causing the market to collapse by buying vehicles in a way that money didn't go straight to the producer? No, the market price adjusted (in the long run), new cars became cheaper to compete with the used market and everyone coasted along fine (Sorry for the car pun) , if a company did badly like GM in '08-'09, it was because it failed in another area, not because of used cars.

In my mind there is no artificial demand outside of WW2 type scenarios where suddenly we need a billion guns, there are companies selling their products effectively and there are those who don't. if people didn't demand a product, they wouldn't buy it.

The "Suffering company" defense only works for mom and pop stores pushed out by Walmart. They cannot even get a start in response to the crushing weight of Walmart's early entrant power . Otherwise it's almost always BS, compete or die, such is the market,

This guy is competing it would seem.

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Gaff

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@mikemcn: @mbradley1992: Yeah, I'm going to guess that this was supposed to be more a discussion about first world problems internet civility than about the micro / macro-economic consequences of scalpers (KEYNES! Or what little I remembered from economics).

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joshwent

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@ownlyuzinwonhan: I can only assume that you wrote this hoping to piss some people off, have them condemn what you're doing, and then allow their outrage to conversely justify your sense of entitlement and what's permissible in the way that you're better than all these small minded picky people who take video games and game devices way too seriously.

You won't find that here. You're not evil, and certainly not 2015's Satan, or whatever. Just... kind of pathetic. Scalping is one thing, this thread you felt the need to make about it is just sad.

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TheHBK

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@ownlyuzinwonhan: Considering how much I love this community and that we really look out for each other and share our love of video games, you sir disgust me. And I think the fact that you don't clearly say what you are doing cements the fact that you know it is an asshole thing to do. Scalping ruins the greatness of gaming and restricts true fans from having what they want and limiting it to those stupid enough and rich enough to get the item. I can't have something because my click wasn't fast enough? It is like those assholes who wait in line on black friday then turn around trying to sell their tickets to the people behind them. As CM Punk said, you are too lazy to get a real job.

My Two Cents

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Nasar7

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Scalping doesn't bother me. The economy is still recovering and I don't begrudge someone trying to turn a profit on the side. The are far more insidious business practices going on at the big corporations and major banks for me to care about someone who didn't bother to preorder a 3DS and now decides they need it so badly that they are willing to pay an extra 100 bucks for it. Hell I bought two PS4s at launch, with no intention of flipping them, but ended up selling one anyway when I was offered $600 for it. Easy money, too good to pass up.

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mbradley1992

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#32  Edited By mbradley1992

@mikemcn said:

A seller cannot create demand, that's not how a market works, people desire limited edition PS4's before they go on sale, and a supplier meets that demand. Scalpers are just market entrants in the market for that product, they just do so on a vastly smaller scale. Call it abusive, call it impolite, call it crushing to the original producer of the scalped product, but it's 100% free market. It's illegal for things like tickets because in a completely free market it would happen often and producer lobbying has crushed it.

The market doesn't collapse when demand declines, the price adjusts accordingly, reselling does not change the quantity demanded of a product, it just means someone else gets the money. If people want 100 PS4's, 100 Ps4's are bought new, and then distributed, they may be sold again, they may be lit on fire, but at the origin, Sony gets the money they deserved. If they don't get their money it's a different failing on their end, they'll leave and someone who can do the job of selling consoles will enter.

If the market did collapse, why would car companies still pump out new cars? Growing up, my family went through 6 different cars, all used, were we causing the market to collapse by buying vehicles in a way that money didn't go straight to the producer? No, the market price adjusted, new cars became cheaper to compete with the used market and everyone coasted along fine (Sorry for the car pun) , if a company did badly like GM in '08-'09, it was because it failed in another area, not because of used cars.

The "Suffering company" defense only works for mom and pop stores pushed out by Walmart. They cannot even get a start in response to the crushing weight of Walmart's early entrant power . Otherwise it's almost always BS, compete or die, such is the market,

This guy is competing it would seem.

Your analogy is wrong. The Seahawks only have 67,000 seats in their stadium to sell. Sony only produced 12,300 limited edition PS4s. If Ford sells 100,000 trucks, they are going to make more trucks. Sporting events and limited edition things have scarcity attached to them. You are confusing that and supply. Also, look up supply and demand graphs (and not the versions you draw in 10th grade algebra). You say, "the price adjusts accordingly", and you're right. It adjusts until it reaches the maximum that the demand allows. When it passes that, the demand falls. As demand falls, supply increases. People won't just pay whatever price infinitely as long as demand is high. There's an equilibrium in supply and demand.

Sellers absolutely create demand. Ever heard of the Disney Vault, where they release a limited number of copies of a movie? In that case, it is called artificial scarcity. They create demand through bottlenecking supply. Sellers absolutely 100% can create demand. People like to think "free market" means that no one side has complete control, and that's just false. The consumers can create low supply by buying it all quickly and demanding more. Producers can create demand by not supplying much. High demand and low supply = high prices. That can be created by either side.

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mbradley1992

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@gaff said:

@mbradley1992: Yeah, I'm going to guess that this was supposed to be more a discussion about first world problems internet civility than about the micro / macro-economic consequences of scalpers (KEYNES! Or what little I remembered from economics).

Then we can all agree that internet assholes are assholes. But, in this case, it is caused by this guy scalping. I agree it's dumb to buy something at an inflated price and then whine about it. You could always not. In fact, if people didn't, the demand would drop and scalpers wouldn't be able to scalp because no one would buy. But that's improbable.

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OwnlyUzinWonHan

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@gaff: @joshwent: @thehbk: I have a real job, it's customer service, where I drew the whole, UA is overpriced please stop buying their things so they need to actually apply for sales inspiration comes from. Seriously, like half my job is "No, The North Face/Under Armour doesn't apply towards this promotion", it gets tiring after a while. Like gaff said, I made this more for the point of people need to stop being crazy on the internet, if people would have reacted like what I think most sensible people would have and just sent an offer, there wouldn't have been this discussion. I don't see the need for people to lash out at others because they're selling something that's a steeper price than they want to pay. If you can't get it right now then wait, it'll probably be available after launch too. The same pig scalper guy got a reply from myself telling him how I got it if he thinks it's too much. As dumb as it is, I would like to be a good representation of what the GB community's like. It's why I where my Ryckert shirt to Smash Bros. tournaments, because I think you're all a wonderful bunch and want the site to get more exposure. It's a chance to make money and presented with the opportunity, why wouldn't you take it?

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mbradley1992

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#35  Edited By mbradley1992

@ownlyuzinwonhan said:

The same pig scalper guy got a reply from myself telling him how I got it if he thinks it's too much. As dumb as it is, I would like to be a good representation of what the GB community's like. It's why I where my Ryckert shirt to Smash Bros. tournaments, because I think you're all a wonderful bunch and want the site to get more exposure. It's a chance to make money and presented with the opportunity, why wouldn't you take it?

Two questions, and we can possibly drop this whole thing.

1) Did you sell multiple of these things?

2) Do you do this regularly?

If either is yes, then it is scalping, and obviously not very popular.

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deactivated-63b0572095437

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Things are worth what people want to pay. If you're doing it with things that people need, that's one thing. If it's video games and collectors items... no big deal. People won't pay more than they want to pay, but they'll sure complain if they don't like your price. It's just people being people. When I sold jewelry, people would get mad if I didn't sell them something for the cost of the gold. When I sold an extra PS4 at launch when they were hard to find, I got threatening emails and texts from random craigslist users. The bottom line is that people get mad when something costs more than they want to spend. Eff em.

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Gaff

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#37  Edited By Gaff

@gaff said:

@mbradley1992: Yeah, I'm going to guess that this was supposed to be more a discussion about first world problems internet civility than about the micro / macro-economic consequences of scalpers (KEYNES! Or what little I remembered from economics).

Then we can all agree that internet assholes are assholes. But, in this case, it is caused by this guy scalping. I agree it's dumb to buy something at an inflated price and then whine about it. You could always not. In fact, if people didn't, the demand would drop and scalpers wouldn't be able to scalp because no one would buy. But that's improbable.

While I agree with everyone being assholes (sorry everyone!), I don't feel it's fair to lay the blame on the OP, or scalpers in general. As you said, sellers can dictate artificial demand by offering less than the public wants. Consumers can create higher demand than the offering of the sellers. Everyone is at fault here.

And, I have to emphasise, we still do not have any idea of what was being sold by the OP. It could've been a New 3DS charger, the Gamecube adaptor for the Wii U, or the Castlevania X: Rondo of Blood / Radiant Silvergun / KoF 2000 / Stadium Events.

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mellotronrules

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since we're living in an age of manufactured scarcity, i find scalping particularly loathsome.

i realise this comes across as proselytizing, but i'd implore you to buy a thing because you want to use it- not simply to deny another (only to sell it back to them at a higher price).

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mbradley1992

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#39  Edited By mbradley1992

@gaff: You are 100% correct. I agree with everything you said. Except the blame part. I blamed both sides equally, including stupid people who pay $500 for one New 3DS just because it is gold with a logo. I have a can of gold paint and could probably make a paper stencil I'd sell for like $20.

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@mbradley1992: Nope and nope. I'd be lying if I said I didn't try it on a few Amiibos though to be fair, my brother would have ended up with two Captain Falcons and no one needs that.

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mbradley1992

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#41  Edited By mbradley1992

@ownlyuzinwonhan: So you sold one thing? Your post made you sound like you sold multiple, because of the messages in got in "the last hour". But if you don't do it regularly or didn't spam a ton, then you're not a scalper (at least not a volume scalper), and probably a fine human being. I'd maybe do the same, if I had one I didn't want. That person should realize they have a choice in the matter to not pay that much money.

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#42  Edited By mikemcn

@mbradley1992 said:

@mikemcn said:

A seller cannot create demand, that's not how a market works, people desire limited edition PS4's before they go on sale, and a supplier meets that demand. Scalpers are just market entrants in the market for that product, they just do so on a vastly smaller scale. Call it abusive, call it impolite, call it crushing to the original producer of the scalped product, but it's 100% free market. It's illegal for things like tickets because in a completely free market it would happen often and producer lobbying has crushed it.

The market doesn't collapse when demand declines, the price adjusts accordingly, reselling does not change the quantity demanded of a product, it just means someone else gets the money. If people want 100 PS4's, 100 Ps4's are bought new, and then distributed, they may be sold again, they may be lit on fire, but at the origin, Sony gets the money they deserved. If they don't get their money it's a different failing on their end, they'll leave and someone who can do the job of selling consoles will enter.

If the market did collapse, why would car companies still pump out new cars? Growing up, my family went through 6 different cars, all used, were we causing the market to collapse by buying vehicles in a way that money didn't go straight to the producer? No, the market price adjusted, new cars became cheaper to compete with the used market and everyone coasted along fine (Sorry for the car pun) , if a company did badly like GM in '08-'09, it was because it failed in another area, not because of used cars.

The "Suffering company" defense only works for mom and pop stores pushed out by Walmart. They cannot even get a start in response to the crushing weight of Walmart's early entrant power . Otherwise it's almost always BS, compete or die, such is the market,

This guy is competing it would seem.

Also, look up supply and demand graphs (and not the versions you draw in 10th grade algebra). You say, "the price adjusts accordingly", and you're right. It adjusts until it reaches the maximum that the demand allows. When it passes that, the demand falls. As demand falls, supply increases. People won't just pay whatever price infinitely as long as demand is high. There's an equilibrium in supply and demand.

Sellers absolutely create demand. Ever heard of the Disney Vault, where they release a limited number of copies of a movie? In that case, it is called artificial scarcity. They create demand through bottlenecking supply. Sellers absolutely 100% can create demand. People like to think "free market" means that no one side has complete control, and that's just false. The consumers can create low supply by buying it all quickly and demanding more. Producers can create demand by not supplying much. High demand and low supply = high prices. That can be created by either side.

I never said there wasn't equilibirum to be reached for a scarce item, A consumer won't pay infinite price, they'll decide not to buy the stupid item. Quantity demanded eventually equals zero, consumer surplus is non-existent, that's the equilibrium, and the market for that one item collapses but does that hurt the producer? No. Because the company has already been paid. I don't see how you can act like a secondary market for an item hurts the producer in the long run. Maybe it hurts the scalper because they can't sell limited edition gizmos and bean bags at the game for all eternity. But the producer moves on, if they charged as high a price as the scalper does at the peak of an item's scarcity they would never have been sold in the first place. The advantage for price is in the hands of the producer because by selling at a low price they can encourage people to buy the item early and they make their money, that's all they want to do.

People not knowing what they want until you show it to them and "creating demand" are different things, people decide what they want in a free market and what they want may be scarce, but in the end they decide demand. Even when dealing with a monopoly on something people have a say, unless the government forces you to buy something you have control over your own demand. (Comcast is everywhere, so cut the cable, National Grid owns all the power so move out or buy a solar panel) If a scalper wants to take advantage of that let them.

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@ownlyuzinwonhan: So you sold one thing? Your post made you sound like you sold multiple, because of the messages in got in "the last hour". But if you don't do it regularly or didn't spam a ton, then you're not a scalper (at least not a volume scalper), and probably a fine human being. I'd maybe do the same, if I had one I didn't want. That person should realize they have a choice in the matter to not pay that much money.

Yeah, I think that's the problem: innocent person A sells a product that he no longer wants, prospective buyer B immediately assume person A is a, well, you know, and starts hurling insults.

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mbradley1992

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#44  Edited By mbradley1992

@mikemcn: I'm kinda tired of debating economics, especially after a long day today at work. But, I'll go again. You're not wrong, but you're not quite seeing the hole. If the market collapses, will the scalpers keep buying more? No. So, does the producer get paid? No. This is all more observable with a market like tickets where every year has another season, rather than in the case of a limited run console because once the consoles are sold, they're sold. But if the market collapses because scalpers have to charge more, then the scalpers quit buying and the producer has oversupply. So then they lower their price, start selling again, and then scalpers start going again. If you observe sports tickets over a long period of time, you see that trend. Not saying it devastates the producer. But it doesn't help them. There's a reason they price it where they do at retail value. If they could get as much as the scalpers, they would.

For your second point, you're right. But, when you decide to cut cable, you've hit the point beyond equilibrium where price value meets demand. At that point, the consumers have already decided the price is too high. So, you're in the free fall part. Using that example, where people are currently cutting cable, in a period of years from now (maybe 2, maybe 10), Comcast will not be able to sell $90 cable packages. You'll see $20 "pick 20 channels" or something else to try and get customers back. But they had to lose the customers first to get there.

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One example (aside from tech and tickets (and roses around Valentine's day)) that comes to mind for me is with the current copies of the "Charlie Hebdo" satirical newspaper.

I read today that they usually publish 60,000 copies, but anticipated demand for their current issue and printed 5 million of them.

But that doesn't stop people trying to pre-sell English versions on eBay for £300+ (over $500)! In this case, opportunists are seeking to profit from a tragedy. But I don't have a problem with a compulsion to buy, or the desire of others to profit.

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#46  Edited By BisonHero

So here are my thoughts on reselling.

If you do a bunch of legwork to track down an old, hard to find thing (a "collectible", if you will), then you have it for a bit and resell it for a profit, I'm fine with that. Example: in his 20s, my dad bought an old beat up hot rod that was in real crap condition off some guy, then spent a few years restoring it, enjoying it for a bit, and eventually had to sell it off. He has occasionally bought other "classic cars" off of people that haven't been in production for years, took good care of them while he owned them, then sold them eventually for a profit. I'm fine with that, as it's really just one long line of resellers because the thing has been out of production for so long and these are really the only channels you can go through to get that sort of thing anyway.

If you buy a new thing, possibly in greater quantities than one, and resell it within weeks or months of it becoming available, not because you're a super fan of said limited edition and want to keep it, but because you have the patience and extra cash to buy some extra copies of the thing for the sole purpose of quickly reselling them, you're probably a pig scalper. Example: basically everything that OwnlyUzinWonHan sounds like he is doing.

There is literally no comparison between what you're doing and what Under Armour is doing. Sure, there is a bunch of markup on an Under Armour shirt, but in general, Under Armour would like to get its product to consumers with as few middle men as possible. They have to pay someone for the raw materials, they have to pay workers to make the product, they have to pay factory owners to run a factory where the workers can make the product, they have to pay to ship the product to various regional warehouses, and a retail location has to pay its workers to sell the product (unless Under Armour sold its products exclusively online or something). Yes, there is markup at various points in the chain so that the various businesses have some kind of profit margin, because if everything was sold at cost none of those businesses would make any money. You could argue about whether or not those margins are fair, but regardless, each step in the chain generally has a reason to be there. Having established that: Under Armour is already (indirectly or not) paying some retail workers to be the people directly selling their product to consumers that wish to own that product. As a scalper, in no way are you a necessary part of that chain; someone is already being paid to be the seller of the product in question, and you are needlessly adding another middleman layer to the chain for your own personal benefit and nothing more.

Buying an event ticket or limited edition item pretty much as soon as they go on sale, with the intention of almost immediately reselling them, by definition, pretty much makes one a pig scalper. If your personal morals are such that you're fine with doing this, then whatever, go live your life. But don't come crying to us about it.

In short, scalpers deserve all the hurtful private messages they get on eBay.

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hippie_genocide

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"Fuck u pig scalper" is probably an acceptable reaction, and one I might have myself, but the difference is I'd mutter it under my breath as I hit the back button not send you a PM. That seems overly aggressive given the situation.

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Spoonman671

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#49  Edited By Spoonman671

If you can make a little money doing what you're doing, then go for it.

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Are you the kinda guy that's first in line at the box office and then buys 50 Opening Day Tigers tickets and immediately puts them on stubhub for over $2000 each and prevents me from going every god damn year?

If you're buying something with no intention to enjoy it and to just resell it, you're preventing an actual fan from getting the thing they want. You didn't work to earn that profit. That's pig money.