Uhh, who cares?
I spent some time on a post and it didn't send. So if this doesn't work, I'm done.
Elizabeth Deloria's big issue is that the career choices of women do not reflect her gender ideology.
There is an under representation of women in software development. We're told this is 'a problem'.
There is an under representation of women in the sanitation industry. Is this a problem?
There is an under representation of women in construction. Is this a problem?
There is an under representation of men in nursing. Is this a problem?
There is an under representation of men in college graduation numbers. Problem?
See, the difference between equality and gender ideology is that equality believes everyone is free to make their own decisions independent of their gender. Gender ideology believes that if their preferred gender isn't receiving the majority of what they consider prestigious positions, independent of their merit, then there is 'a problem'. Even though women make up the majority of college graduates, if they're not choosing STEM fields, there is 'a problem'. Elizabeth Deloria is unhappy with the choices women have made.
Don't believe in gender ideology, kids. Believe in equality.
Fucking ninja'd. Goddamn it with you it's like a race to post common sense.
I'm not sure what Sony was supposed to do. The heads and leads of those studios are dudes. They're the ones most passionate about their games. You could see it in some of their eyes. Putting up a girl onstage just for the sake of putting a girl on stage to me would have been worse.
There were no people from the 15th century either; Sony must hate them!
The problem with people from the 15th century are their inability to turn on electronics. They make the worst software employees. I'm sorry if that is bigoted, but it's true.
I feel like I've fallen into some affirmative-action fever-dream. IIRC there were also no Africans or African Americans. So Sony is both sexist and racist yeah?
I saw no identified homosexuals either. They must also be madly homophobic.
For those who thought this was just Kotaku being Kotaku, it seems The Verge has picked up on this issue, pointing the blame to more than just Sony. The article even goes so far as to say that were women in better positions, modern video games wouldn't be so boring.
@koolaid39: Tried to think of a 15th century mathematician relevant to the history of computer science to try and refute this claim but couldn't come up with one. So yeah, fuck those guys!
No explain. She the hot one everyone made a comic of sucking off people to play Assassin Creed? She's cute.
I think this is going too far... I'm a bit tired of every little thing getting misinterpreted. Maybe it's because I'm a guy but these people are picking at straws. And buying a Wii U? Good for her, it will help out Nintendo ( I don't remember there being women at the Wii U launch thing )
This is sad because there are real cases of sexism in the world. She just wants attention and clicks for money, or is so shallow it's hard to fathom. This sexism in video games witch hunt needs to end - it is pathetic to the adults in the room, and cheapens the real issue.
She wants attention and clicks for money? What? That doesn't make any sense. Is there some kind of new e-currency? They're fucking impulsive twitter posts. People have blown this way out of proportion, when it was something we could have just chuckled about. But no, we can't have nice things because a bunch of 12 year old's want to get upset and harass people for saying dumb and weird things.
@krullban: The thing is, I think phrases like "There is some degree of sexism in every industry" gloss over the fact that not all industries have the same degree of sexism, and that video games in particular are a very male-dominated space. I'm not saying that the event itself was sexist, I'm not even sure sexism is the ideal word to use here, but the event did seem reflective of a problem within the industry that feels like it really shouldn't be a problem for any respected industry in the year 2013.
There was a reason none of the developers who spoke there were women; because there's a lack of women in the industry, and I don't think that's coincidence or comes from a place of complete equality and fairness. At the very least it's something we should think about thoroughly before dismissing. We have an industry where the vast majority of respected people in the within it are men, where almost all big games are aimed at men, and where women are not only in a minority in gaming community, but receive inexcusable abuse because of it. I don't think you have to dig very deep or clutch at straws to find the problems here.
More people than ever are calling out gender inequality in the industry, but that's because it's a topic that we need to look at seriously and has been largely ignored in the past, and I think it's important to keep bringing it up because there's an overwhelming number of people who want to give knee-jerk dismissals to these problems or even outright attack the people who try to highlight inequality to begin with. Whether people are tired of it or not, we need to discuss this like adults, and be aware that smaller issues with equality may be representative of larger ones. Thanks for discussing this with me civilly though, I've had a lot of arguments along these lines that haven't gone so well.
But I don't really agree that it's a problem that not as many women as men are in the industry. There are many industries that are dominated by one gender, and I don't necessarily think that's an issue of inequality, more so of an issue of how the different sexes think, and the career paths they choose to pursue. If a women wants to become a video game developer, I doubt there will be any higher up pulling them down and telling them they aren't allowed. It's just that not as many women even try or even want to get into the industry as men.
More and more women are getting into the industry, and there will likely be a change at some point where it's equal or close in terms of the numbers of developers. But as it stands right now, more men are in the industry, because more men have been interested in getting into the industry than women.
And I would argue that many of the other industries that are also male-dominated may have a problem too. I also don't think just because most people in a system choose one option over an other option, it means that they have anything near complete freedom or equality. Yeah, there's few to no situations where women have been outright told "You can't be game developer 'cause you're a woman" by a potential boss, but anyone who's familiar with how discrimination works, will tell you that it often works at a more subtle level than this, and I think often because the problems are slightly more subtle, they get ignored by people who aren't actively looking into this stuff and trying to gather in-depth opinions from both sides of the argument. We must also remember that this isn't just a numbers game, that while the number of women in the industry is a big problem, that there are also problems with the lack of higher-ups and well-known/respected devs who are female, and this is before we even start getting into how women are depicted in games, treated by games, or treated in the gaming community.
I feel a little like I'm repeating myself a little here, but I have to say this, if you're saying that there aren't barriers to women specifically getting into and working their way up through the industry then you start getting into the territory of telling those people in the industry, many of them women, that all those experiences of discrimination against women they saw or even went through first-hand were either imaginary or lies, and I think you get into some very dangerous territory if you start trying to do that without some very good reasoning.
I think we're a long way from seeing a time when numbers of men and women in the industry are going to equal out, but if you think there is going to be this change, ask yourself, what caused this sudden change in women's minds that they want to be part of the industry now? Why weren't they interested before? Either you have to say that there's some kind of big biological difference between the minds of men and women, and that somehow there is now happening a major biological change in women that is causing this shift, or you have to concede that it's due to social factors. That through some combination of discrimination in the industry, society gendering jobs, boys and girls being brought up differently, a decisively male culture surrounding games, or whatever else, that men are being pushed towards the industry and advancing in it, while women are not, and if you concede this to be true, how can you say that both genders have complete freedom and equality here?
Sounds like those people are just being oversensitive and looking for something that isn't there. I know a black person who is similar, he is obsessed with racism so he sees it everywhere even though it's not really happening, like if a person doesn't smile at him when he says "hi" he assumes it's because they hate black people, when in reality it could just be that particular person was just having a rough day or something.
I'm not sure finding a woman to take the stage solely because she's a woman is the right thing to do, either.
Apparently that's exactly what you need to do. You need to think sexistly and purposefully make sure your event has both sexes as presenters. Otherwise you're sexist.
Think racially/sexistly or else you're a racist/sexist.
None of the development heads on the teams presenting their games happened to be women. Had a woman been in one of those positions, I'm sure Sony would have no problem putting them on stage.
The sexism whistle blowing has gotten way out of hand.
I really wish this whole thread had ended here, because that's just about all there is to say.
This has nothing to do with Sony in particular. The software industry, as a whole, doesn't have a lot of women in major leadership roles. Call it the glass ceiling/old boys' club, call it "women are less willing to sacrifice their family and social lives to reach the very top of their field", call it whatever, but at the end of the day, women like Jade Raymond are still quite rare in the gaming industry. Even someone like Carrie Gouskos is more known to us due to her work at Gamespot than for being much of a "frontman" for Mythic.
WHY MAKE THIS THREAD? WHY?
All across STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) there is a lack of women for whatever reason. If it had been a statistic symposium, it wouldn't have exactly been Lilith Fair. Yelling at Sony for the leaders in the field not being women, is the wrong tact. You get more women on that stage by hiring more women and treating them equally.
@gamer_152: I find this debate interesting but i feel you two are talking about two different things. The Sony press event is one thing and the overall state of women in gaming is another. The problem i find is using the Sony event as a platform to talk more about women being in gaming is a very weak starting point. So much so it make the overall argument weak by relation. I feel that bringing up that Sony is sexist because they did not have any women presenters, but lets talk about the lack of women in the game industry is a starting argument that is doomed to fail.
The twitter comments seemed a bit childish to jump the gun and go on attack mode on Sony claiming injustice to women. Having that stance means everyone who does not see eye to eye on the subject will follow suit and go on defensive mode. When this happens no one is listening to anyone and all we are getting is people complaining back and forth. To me this will not raise awareness the right way but only get people in more of a fighting stance. There is a way to raise awareness without being so hostile in our discourse.
I believe the key is to keep the discussion truthful but without pointing fingers because when you do point fingers this will work in favor of sexism when hostile tensions grow that create backlash on the few trend setter who are women moving up in these fields. The complete opposite also does not work in flavor when knee jerk reactions is to create superficial "positions" so women can feel like they are part of the club when there is no club to begin with.
To have more women in the field would be a great thing and we need to work on highlighting these women and show others who don't know that there is a future in the gaming market for all genders.
@panvixyl: By the logic employed by this idiotic argument, women should be represented in everything no matter what, even if they don't want to be there, they should be shown like objects to prove that there isn't sexism present. There is an earlier comment in this thread that sums up my feelings on the whole issue. The basics were that we should be striving for equality not gender ideology.
I guess you don't have very good reading comprehension or you would have been able to grasp what I was saying in my comment. I was pointing out the idiotic nature of this whole accusation against Sony. Also, Giantbomb is owned by CBS which is a multinational corporation employing/working with hundreds of thousands of people, at least some of whom are likely to be ladies. So yeah if I was being serious, you're retort falls on it's face.
It’s a problem, but it’s not one that Sony or most other game developers are in a position to solve. The likely reality was that the people brought on stage were the best qualified to do so.
I get why Elizabeth DeLoria might be annoyed, but what would she have Sony do? Game development (and really, engineering in general) is a male-dominated field, especially in Japan. This is a result of our education systems, our latent gender roles, the legacy of male-targeted games, the “video games are for boys” stereotype, the problems women have rising to the top of companies when childbirth could stall their momentum, etc. Many of the underlying causes of the industry’s gender inequality will take decades to meaningfully change (and that presumes the right social and government climate), and will involve real economic and social trade-offs. I know that’s no fun to people whose outrage cycles are about 3 hours long.
It’s easy in a snarky-Twitter-post way to say “hey, no women — sexist!”, but that’s continuing to focus on a tiny symptom of much larger problems. I’m more than a little sick of people who think taking easy cheap shots on Twitter somehow demonstrates they’re a better, more enlightened person, let-alone a feminist. That’s not to say they’re wrong to point it out, just that retweeting the tip of an iceberg (to mix metaphors) isn’t particularly profound or helpful.
Her claiming she’ll be buying a Wii U is ironic, as she’s just supporting another male-dominated Japanese company.
Thank you for posting a level-headed comment in a thread with crazy garbage coming from all directions.
@fragilenin: women SHOULD be represented in everything they are a part of dummy
women are a part of the video game industry therefore the industry should note their presence
and from this response the ladies clearly did want to "be there" soooo why weren't they? you want to achieve equality, you start by including women every step of the way.
and if CBS had a major conference designed to represent the company as a whole I would sure as shit expect a female presence
@panvixyl: Then Sony could have easily pulled one of their female engineers to talk about the PS4. Much like how Apple, Google, and Microsoft get their female engineers to talk about new products. Oh wait.
Even Apple and Google say female engineers are impossible to find in the tech industry.
@kaosangel: As a direct descendent of a female engineer I am 100% certain that they exist in the world. Nice try.
Yeah that's a minority. When the two biggest tech companies in the world have trouble finding it, you know they are a rarity. Engineering majors are vastly male and anyone stupid enough to doubt that needs to write for Kotaku.
How about we fix the issue that women "can't do hard sciences" and let girls know it's okay to love tech and just how the world works.
As an American we need all the fucking engineers we can get. I don't give a shit what color their skin is or if they got a huge penis, small penis, fat penis, skinny penis or vagina.
As Americans we fucking need engineers.
Deloria what!? because dressing like a pussy cat and calling yourself a she-hulk grants your credibility? Stop promoting smoking mirrors, this claims are nothing but whiny people looking for internet traffic.
I have a relative that works at SONY, female relative.. it is not a sexist company. They pick up people based on merits and resume, everyone who spoke last night has pretty badass credentials.
I find the Verge to be a good site for editorial commentary in the tech business, but that article is such trash. What a lame attempt to use to ESA's percentage of women playing games to support his argument. Is the author really going to slap that statistic into his op-ed without questioning the logic behind that number?
- Did he consider that the ESA has a motive for displaying the gaming community as a vast and differentiated group and will do anything to manipulate their numbers, like count any person who played a single game of Bejeweled as a 'gamer?'
- Did he think of Sony's (and any other company that produces 'core games') goal in doing a press event? Maybe they're trying to rally the hardcore to evangelize the platform? How many of these 'hardcore gamers' can be assumed to be women?
Take away the misleading stat that a major group of gamers are women and the argument boils down to "Women should be represented because it's not fair." This might be a different conversation if it was structured to ask why there aren't many women in the gaming industry even though they want to be. Instead, we get a demand for change for the sake of political correctness.
I think one could see this as a criticism of our industry generally rather than just Sony.
This, but that doesn't mean that tokenism is acceptable either. Women need to rise to higher positions within the industry and then they will share the spotlight at these meetings because they're the head of development or something similar and not just to fill an estrogen quota. Do I think there are barriers within the game industry which deter women from reaching those heights? Certainly, as there are in many male-dominated fields, but trotting out a skirt just to appease sensitivities detracts from the larger issue.
@panvixyl: Maybe they don't have head engineers?
No one blames Apple or Google for never having females talk about products. Microsoft was a complete sausagefest for CES 2013. Only the gaming industry people are butt-hurt when the truth is the majority of the tech industry has an extreme lack of female engineers.
Maybe Apple and Google should start considering they are the fucking leaders of the entire technology industry.