The story was good for a videogame thing has to stop.

@chrissedoff: I wasn't really trying to give JRPGs or video games any particular exception. Sarevok is well written, but I could just as easily boil him down to "Remember how the main antagonist of Baldur's Gate was the son of a murder god and really all he's trying to do is attain godhood through ye olde prophecy?" So while I agree that JRPGs sometimes rely on bad anime-writing tropes for their characters and plots, you can make any villain's motivations sound stupid if you try to summarize and simplify them down to one condescending rhetorical question. Your criticism wasn't a particularly fair tactic.

@bisonhero: But Sarevok's motivations make sense though. Do X and ye shall receive Y. Kuja's motivations only become more stupid when anyone tries to explain them in detail.

@probablytuna: they can say it all they want. I just do have to be friends with them anymore afterwards.

@chrissedoff: Meh, I think a lot of Kuja's reaction follow a X then Y causation, it's just that sure, sometimes Kuja's reaction is not proportional to the bad shit that is going on around him/in his life. Still, it's not entirely Looney Tunes nonsense that comes out of nowhere. Sarevok had a rough upbringing, so attaining godhood through whatever despicable means makes some amount of sense. When you're Kuja and you've been told that you're immortal to then learn you are not, who's to say that is not a pretty traumatic event, though yes, destroying everything is a bit of an overreaction. Though yeah, it kinda follows the pattern of everyone being really angsty in Final Fantasy (and JRPGs at large) in that era.

Anyway, not trying to say Kuja is amazing or anything, but Baldur's Gate has some of the best fantasy writing in a video game, so yeah, not much is going to compare favourably to it, Japanese or otherwise. Most games with writing that is "good for a video game" don't have writing as good as Baldur's Gate.

You've opened my eyes, how could I have been so close minded. I can't wait for your award winning novel to be turned into oscar winning film you've always wanted.

What is douchey or snobby about it? Other mediums tend to have better stories than video games. Its just a fact of life in 2013.

Well the plot itself may have been simple, its execution and climax were masterclass and can only be described as all the feels.

You're right and I'm not going to argue with you, but even though I loved Breaking Bad from start to finish I never really bought Walter White's character progression into a villain. I enjoyed his character for other reasons.

No offense is meant to be given here, but in the context you're putting it your response seems the more snobbish and annoying one. I've seen plenty of movies, read plenty of books, played plenty of games. I've seen adaptations both where the book is better and where the movie is better. I think that the Lord of the Rings movies are VASTLY superior to Tolkien's books, at the same time though, I watched Apocalypse Now with a friend, when he told me how much he enjoyed it, I mentioned that he should read Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness because it's even better.

There's nothing wrong with liking a movie adaptation of a book more than its source material, and there's nothing wrong with preferring the book over the film. Overreacting when someone says something to the effect seems harsh and unnecessary.

If it were well cast and directed I could totally see To The Moon being an amazing film.

There isn't really much to the game so it feels more like an interactive story, but damn, them feels.

No, they are saying "Well I read the book before hand and I really appreciated the extra depth that a novel can go into in areas like character development that a 2 hour movie just doesn't have the chance to do. I also enjoyed the film much like you, which is why I recommend you consider giving the book ago. I think you'll like it. Of course this is just my opinion so don't feel obliged to, but it may be something you gain enjoyment from."

Stop looking to be offended for goodness sake, it's pitiful. The vast majority of people who talk about liking the books aren't trying to belittle you or patronise you (of course there are a small number who will, but there's also someone who acts the dick), merely sharing their opinion. It's no different to coming out of the theatre and saying "I really enjoyed the scene in the shower" and your friend replies "oh, I liked that too, it really reminded me of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho." It's just a way to talk about the experience you have just had. We relate things to other experiences, be it from the same medium or from other mediums.

The great thing about entertainment, or one of the many great things, is that it is something to talk about, to share theories, recommendations, interpretations, just to discuss what you like and what you don't. I mean fair enough if you don't want to engage in things like that, that's fine, but dismissing people who as arrogant and belittling just says more about you than it does about them, that you are ever so slightly judgemental.

And the reason why people say "the story was good for a game" is pretty basic. The number of videogames that are genuinely well written are few and far between. Because video games do different things. With a novel all you have are the words on the page to read, with cinema and TV you watch and you listen, video games though you interact. A game can have a sincerely enjoyable narrative without being Dostoyevsky or Shakespeare. I mean I thoroughly enjoyed playing The Walking Dead Season 1, and that game is pretty much all story and it greats a dramatic atmosphere, a strong attachment to characters that you simply don't get in the same way in a less interactive medium.

Give people more time. Video games are young. We've already come along way from "you're a yellow circle with a mouth, eat this pills while being chased by ghosts" in a lot quicker than it took the ancients to write The Odyssey and the Epic of Gilgamesh from where they began. But writers are still getting to grips with the medium. I think a lot can be done with it as far as creating things that really pull you into the story, and we're getting there, but I don't think there's anything particularly wrong or pretentious to say that I have confidence that the video game industry can further storytelling in the medium with time, I think it says something positive about the medium.

For a comparison, I also don't think there's anything wrong with saying that "film X has a good story for a summer blockbuster", while also accepting that it is unlikely that summer blockbusters will be the greatest works of cinema from an artistic perspective.

Video games still have the difficult task of putting story into context with interactivity. It can muddle things a lot so some games that focus on story don't have the greatest game play and vice versa focus on the game play can lessen the story in some way.

You may enjoy a story, but that doesn't mean it's well done. Most things I enjoy are flawed, though. That doesn't diminish my enjoyment of them.

It doesn't matter if you think it's snobby. It's often still accurate. As in the case with movies vs books, it's often still the case. Sometimes the movie is better the book (Catching Fire anyone?). I think it's strange that you're so bothered by people thinking a story is sub-par when they are often entirely sub-par.

@naru_joe93: People like to pretend it's about survivor's guilt but I don't see it. At all times Joel is the victim and never the aggressor. The one scene where they try to set up how the "enemies" point of view is they make the enemies clearly evil and wrong so everyone can go "Wow Joel sure did the right thing!".

Joel doesn't steal food from starving people, he doesn't shoot passive people, his only gimmick is that he is sad. It's cliche'd writing and dull. However, it's still better than most video game stories so it is "not bad for a video game."

When people stop calling poor to mediocre-at-best stories "brilliant" and stop referring to serviceable writers as "geniuses", I'll stop thinking "for videogames".

I think a lot of people grasp at a lot of straws in an attempt to make this medium appear to be more mature (evolved, not age-rating) than it is.

For the most part i agree but i don't feel like saying the book is better is harmful unless the person is being a jerk about it. Entertainment media have there strong suits which can get in the way of story at times. That i can understand, which is why tv shows, movies and video games have a chance of getting in the way of the story because it also has to work in making sure its something interesting to watch or play.

That being said i do think people give game stories a harsher rap when there are just as much crappy shows, books, and movie stories out there in the world. So acting like game stories are the worse seems dishonest if you are taking everything as a whole. I feel the only problem is we need more Citizen Kane examples for video games before the tone changes about stories in games.

Final Fantasy IX had a story? No, seriously. I recall really liking it but then I realized there wasn't a central plot at all. It was just "here's the backstory of all these interesting characters, and random stuff happens, and a crystal? The End" I mean, I really do like that game but that was my main gripe with it...about halfway through you realize that there isn't a common thread to all this crap you're doing and it's just kind of pointless other than character development I guess.

But yeah I think the story of a game isn't just the cutscenes and authored content but your interaction and involvement with the world too and what you bring to it. That makes it much different from a book or movie. I've read a lot of books and tons of them have lousy stories, unfulfilling characters, etc. Lots of games have decent stories and characters that resonate with people in ways that many movies and books don't so I don't understand the sentiment. Heck, I've enjoyed the story and setup in things like Call of Duty 4 and Gears of War better than most movies I've seen so...yeah. Also, Mass Effect. Final Fantasy VI. Chrono Trigger. Brothers. Wind Waker.

Can video games have good stories? Well, yeah, and some of them do. But they're a different kind of storytelling medium, and with that comes a lot of figuring out how to tell a good story. A common argument in this thread has been "Yeah, but there are a lot of shitty movies and TV shows." That's true, but I don't think that video game stories have reached the same heights either.

Besides, I think the heights of video games lie elsewhere. They lie in experiences and what happens to the player. I think if the most memorable parts of your game are not somehow tied to the gameplay, then you have failed in making a compelling game. You might have made a good story, and that's good, but I'm here for the games. Nothing in movies or books can match up to exploring the world of Metroid Prime or diving into the difficult dungeons of Nocturne or building something great in Minecraft or carefully making your way through the harrowing corridors of Doom without much ammo or health. That's where gaming's real strength lies, that's where it has soared already, and - if it's going to continue to remain relevant as an art form - that's where its heights will be. Games won't succeed until they stop aping movies and comparing themselves to movies.

Also the movie is rarely better than the book.

I think the reason for the "... for a game" qualifier comes from the fact that historically, narratives where just tools to push games through set pieces. As in, this character is in a tundra, is in a dessert, is in a jungle, and each level just needed simple plot points to tie together each gameplay beat. I agree with your sentiment, that I don't like it, and in a small way it holds the medium back, since if the expectation is that game storylines are sub-par, why push past those expectations, but it's good to have an understanding of why that write-off is common. As for the comparison of someone saying a book is superior to a movie, that is a different discussion, as it's about someones expectation of an adaptation, not a generalization of a medium.

who's frank??????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_IX#Plot

You must not have been paying attention

Final Fantasy VI and IX are both regarded as the best entries in the series, and they're both the highest reviewed and critically praised of all the entries in the FF series. If you're a fan of VI you should go back and play through IX again because you must have missed half of the events of the game.

Video games don't have to draw you in with plot the same way other mediums do so its easy for them to get away with worse stories than a book, movie, or tv show does. Most video games get away with being fun to play and not, "Whats going to happen next?"

So I don't remember his name. But: Shutter Island

YOU ARE FRANK

You seem pretty bent out of shape about this, need a hug?

We unfortunately live in a world where everyone is a critic and an accomplished writer and director. People are so quick to pass judgement before stopping to think maybe they just didn't get it.

Also the cutscene where Tess tells Joel "I get it" before moving on is fantastic, as well as her speech convincing Joel to move on without her.

There's really not much point in comparing the storytelling of different art forms. All books do is tell story, so of course it has to be strong. There's no audio/visual to fill in the gaps. But just because someone is a great writer of novels, doesn't make them a good screenwriter. Different skill sets. And likewise with videogames, it's incredibly hard to tell a story and make it engaging over the course of 20+ hours (and in some cases much longer). Then, you have the issue of ok now we're going to not advance the story at all and let the player just play. Sure there can be story elements woven into that, but primarily it's not. Really good writers have fallen flat their faces trying to pen the script to games. It happens all the time. Again, different skill sets. So, I don't like "good for a game" qualifier. It's not offensive, it's just redundant. Either a story is good, or it's not.

I wasn't paying attention the 4+ times I played through the game, completely enthralled? And when I discussed it with friends? And couldn't seem to make heads or tails of any plot line? I mean I've been meaning to play it again sometime, and that plot summary sounds really intriguing and all, but the way it communicated it was incredibly opaque then because I got none of that other than a bunch of random, semi-related events and then an ending that made no sense. I got to the end of the game and didn't understand why Kuja was doing half the things he was doing other than, I dunno, he was grumpy about being manufactured or whatever.

Also, Final Fantasy VIII is my favorite in the series, but I openly admit that's probably more to do with nostalgia than any true metrics. Besides VI and IX, I don't really love any other games in the series though even though I've played most of them.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, I just have a large place in my heart for Final Fantasy IX and it is mostly due to the games story.

The ending to FFIX was amazing imo, I love it every time right into the credits playing with Melodies of Life which is just a fantastic song.

@xalienxgreyx said:

Putting in 5 minutes at the end doesn't satisfy me for making the major point about survivor's guilt. I feel like this story could have gone a million different ways that would have been more interesting,but that's not the point of this thread.

Last of Us aside, I think there are plenty of examples proving that the stories in video games, even at their best, are just not up to snuff compared to other media. So the term isn't being pretentious or excessive it's just stating how many people feel about the situation.

@hippie_genocide: Very well said. Maybe redundant is a good term for it.

I agree with your sentiment, but from a different direction. I do think most game stories are bad, but I don't think people should say "good for a video game story" because a story can't be held to different standards based on the medium. Either a story is good or it's not, you shouldn't be able to enjoy a story in a video game that you would have hated had it been a movie or a book instead. Video games can have good stories though.

@xalienxgreyx: I really, really do love Final Fantasy IX a lot too. Perhaps I was too young to understand the story. I mean, I was like 12 years old when it came out and some stories have opened up to me since then. Not that I was an idiot, but I'd get lost in the details and couldn't see the broader spectrum. Also, I've had a lot of life experience since then. I really want to play that game again. And get around to Vagrant Story too, and possibly restart Chrono Cross for the eight billionth time. I always seem to lose my save file somehow, like the universe doesn't want me to play it.

@chemystery: it wasn't just the last 5 minutes... It was peppered in throughout the entire game and reached crescendo when Ellie vocally professed it at the end... I don't even think youre reading my comments now

Frankly, a lot of games that try to tell Hollywood like stories can't compete with Hollywood due to the nature of games. The games that do stories the best are when they try alternate methods that makes no sense in a movie/book.

Edit: And when people say things like the Last of Us would be a great movie, I would have to disagree. That type of story has been told countless times in movies. The Last of Us is a great story because of the interactivity and your investment in characters.

My enduring question whenever this comes up is: Who cares? Video games are not novels and they are not movies, there is not some cosmic law stating that video games need to have stories on par with those mediums. If the story blends well enough with the game play that I enjoy the total experience, that's all I care about. The balance between the two can vary from game to game, but the balance has to be there, and the total experience has to be good.

Sorry bud have to disagree. Until these writers in games get even remotely consistent the stigma will exist and for very good reason. Game writers are basically fucking terrible minus the one or two bright spots per year.

Not saying I like a lot of modern literature written today but games simply don't even wipe the bum of a good novelist at this point. It's just how it is for now. Tools are getting better enabling, well I hope so anyway, people to concentrate on writing this gen.

It's waaay more than 5 minutes at the end, Ellie's dream about being in the airplane for example, but whatever feel how you like.

To be fair what stood out to me from what he said was fucking COMMANDO.

Look, the only real solution to this is to adopt the phrase "the interactivity was good for a movie/book." That's the only proper response to this comparison between apples, oranges, and durians.

I'm sure it will stop when video games as a whole can be considered to be more than "good for a video game." You don't have to like it, but its a saying thats out there for a reason. It doesn't matter that some video game stories can be great, a few isn't enough.

The ratio of good films to terrible films is no better

Yes. But the peaks of story-telling in cinema are still considerably higher than they are in video games, despite the lows being at the same level of awful. It's not "all films or books have perfect narrative", it's just that the best books and the best films have better narrative than the best video games has offered. So far.