The story was good for a videogame thing has to stop.

Whenever someone says all videogame stories are bad or the story was good for a videogame, it drives me up wall. It's like when you go see a movie you like and someone says "the book was much better." It's the douchiest snobbiest thing ever, I hate it. Whenever someone says "this has a good story for a videogame" I always think "hey I read a book once aren't I so smart and cultured?"

I love video games but straight up I cant think of a single game that has had as good a story as most good books. If you want to take issue with how people phrase that then alright but I think what they are saying is just the reality of it. Books and film only really have a story to hang their hat on and have been around for a lot longer. They are just more developed art forms in general. Video games are more complex and new. They don't have to have a story to be good.

I find it quite stupid as well, Cormac McCarthy is my favorite author, and No Country for Old Men is one of my favorite movies, and I think the story in Final Fantasy IX is fully realized and highly imaginative and one of my favorite stories of all time.

Sue me.

PS - Scary Movie is a thing that exists, Twilight is a novel and a movie series, After Earth, The Happening, Knowing, etc are all inferior to most story's found in video games.

Movies and books all have shitty examples same as video games, Video Games have shitty stories and some have great stories it's just a fucking thing that happens get over it.

The last of US does this in my opinion. It would be a great movie or book but what it makes it much better is the intensity during gameplay and how tense you are while watching a new cutscene. You care much more about it since you are way more invested. And this is what videogames can take advantage of.

Yeah, seriously.

I understand when somebody tells me they don't like the way some narratives are executed in video games ('cause I totally agree there's a lot of terrible video game narratives out there) but it gets to me when people adopt the attitude that video games should be treated as inferior because the ones those people have experienced are bad/didn't provide what they were looking for. I mean, I do think there are many more narratives told through film or literature that are beyond anything any video game has done yet. Naturally. Video games have existed for a fraction of the time. It's only recently that games have attempted to deliver interesting stories, and I honestly don't think the stories of major games are that good yet (many are heavy handed or melodramatic). That being said, the delivery of a story similar to what movies and books can do isn't necessarily what games set out to do. And when people who don't realize this say "for a game-" that can annoy me at times.

Depends on the story, most video games have bad pacing and maybe like half the characters either contribute almost nothing or are a detriment (i.e. the first Mass Effect, every Bethesda game ever); but there's plenty of video games that just have good stories like Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy Tactics, The Last of Us, and Xenosaga 1, 2, and 3. It's much harder to carry a story for longer than 2 hours so games will always suffer as a result. As far as comparing them to books most modern literature is shit so of course game stories are comparable; if you're trying to compare a video game to something like Othello or Three Kingdoms or The Road or Heart of Darkness it will pale in comparison (though its worth noting Spec Ops: The Line has a comparable storyline to Apocalypse Now; both are vastly inferior to Conrad's original work).

Goes without saying that books/movies/tv stories are also very often absolute garbage themselves.

I think a lot of the story telling hangups in games are due to the fact that games have to account for an interactive part where as stories that are just stories don't. Then again there are some stories like say Bioshock where your perspective is soley that of a singular character from their perspective that is a pretty unique form of storytelling in its own right. When it comes right down to it as others have said other mediums have been around longer.

I agree, Braid and Gone Home are hilariously overrated.

Hit the nail on the head. The actual plot may not be any worse than those of books, but the way they're told certainly is, unless it's an adventure game or visual novel. Film suffers from similar issues.

Seriously: read one of the Wiki articles about various games, and man, those stories sound great. Then when you actually play the games, the story gets lost amid the gameplay. There are a lot of games I really wish they'd remake as novels.

I think people who believe video games have worse stories than other mediums need to take a closer look at other mediums. A lot of that shit is total garbage. A lot of movies take their stories from other mediums where that story has already excelled anyways. Could you name more original movies, and books with better stories that came out this year? Probably. I guarantee there were way more movies and books released this year than story based video games however.

boosh!

@darji: I'd argue all of that evaporates the second you die and just load up and try again. It takes the intensity of the situation right out of everything, its all just window-dressing. Really slick looking, well-acted, window dressing with some top-tier graphics, but still kind of hollow.

To the Moon

Gone Home

The Last of Us

Final Fantasy IX

Final Fantasy XII

Final Fantasy VI

Xenogears

Heavy Rain (Great on paper, questionable execution)

Beyond Two Souls (Great on paper, questionable execution)

Okami

Shadow of the Colossus

Ico

Grand Theft Auto IV

Read Dead Redemption

Uncharted Series

The Walking Dead

System Shock 2

Metal Gear Solid Series (Come up with something better before bitching about how it's confusing)

Portal

Kingdom Hearts 1 (One of the best endings in gaming)

Mass Effect Trilogy

Deus Ex

and to just stop you right in your tracks

Silent Hill 2 - not only is this a fantastic and well told story in its own right it is also a phenominal example of the advantageous and strengths of interactive story telling

Gone Home is also good at this

These are just off the top of my head, some might be less than outstanding examples but I'm also sure there's plenty of others.

Couldn't agree fucking more, it's really pathetic how this Hollywood environment-wannabe we've created for ourselves where we have "journalists" and conferences, expos and game forums made us so DESPERATE to not feel like kids playing with toys that we just want mature story no matter what that means.

This medium has always been about interactivity and gameplay - the thing that captured YOU as a kid was the jumping and shooting in a game, not the fucking story, yo.

Some of my favorite games are story-driven, but that doesn't mean a damn thing if the interactive aspect is not amazing and fun.

When people say that about a game's story, they're usually disregarding everything else about the game, which is a mistake. "Good" stories in books aren't good solely because of the characters or the plot or even the dialog. What makes it good it the way the story's told. It's the prose that perfectly sets a scene or gives us unique insight into a character, it's the pacing, the divergences, and countless other things that result in "a good story".

With a game, because you have control of certain aspects, the gameplay, the sound, the world itself, and even the UI all play a part in the story. Consider Dead Space. Someone discussing the story might start saying, "there's a dude on this abandoned ship and...", but it's impossible to express the way the story is told by simply existing in that world.

It's possibly the reason I love games as much as I do. And at the risk of sounding pretentious, if someone says a game's story is good, but feels the need to limit that to "for a game", they just don't get it.

The next Call of Duty should be about a father that is in denial that his kids drowned, and this is the 3rd time he's been to prison and he doesn't realize that the whole prison is in on the scam to get him back in prison. Frank just doesnt believe.

This is pretty much entirely accurate, and one of the reasons why I think great game stories are the ones with great complimenting gameplay, to make you forget about the stories pacing and get lost in the actual narrative.

I don't know dude, video games have just good set pieces, and they have good excuses to lock you into an arena without making invisible walls. That's what game developers do well.

Like Batman Arkham Asylum.... is technically an adaptation of Grant Morrison and David McKean comic book, I'm not crazy when I say that, because Grant Morrison gets a nice paycheck from the game. NOW!!! THAT'S THE WORST FUCKING ADAPTATION EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MAN KIND, but it's my favorite game and possible the best take on batman ever. It's closer to Jeph Loeb's style of writing..... but even still it's not Long Halloween's Godfather inspired setting. And hey, Jeph Loeb is also famous for something else..... COMMANDO!!!! So see how this thing works in a circle, I'm not pretending I'm above all of this or saying it's bad story, in fact I think it's better then the chris nolan dark Knight to have commissioner gordon looks like he's eaten rocks. But it's a world I'd be happy to inhabit then watch a stupid movie that takes forever till someone is punching someone else.

As dumb as Kojima is, I think both Metal Gear and Zone of the Enders would make great movies. Same goes for Shadow of the Colossus. However as far as a story matching that of a great novel? I can't really think of anything. Maybe Mass Effect, Half life 2 or some of the better JRPGs?

I don't understand a word you just typed

I'll stop saying it when it stops being true. I like a lot of games, and I have enjoyed several of the stories in them. But when it comes to quality of writing, games don't hold a candle to other mediums just yet. Even the strongest examples of stories in gaming still fall short.

I say this because video games are still an evolving medium and are finding their voice for narrative. I have said that "The Last of Us has a good story for a video game" because I feel like the story is a cut above for video games but only mediocre when compared to books and movies. I felt like the Last of Us was really easy to predict and just took the easy way out on a lot of subjects. I feel like it had to do this because games are still breaking into the heavy hitting topics so they have to move a gradually. They have to progress before they hit you hard with the real stuff whereas books and movies are already there.

What I have listed is one very specific title in a specific instance but I feel like the analogy can be used for most of the big titles in video games. The day will come when we won't use this phrase anymore and it will be a fantastic day.

I don't see a problem with this.

Also how do you know if you like a movie before you've seen it? Unless you're referring to a second screening?

Wha....you are aware that you can talk about movies after you've seen them, right? So when he says "when you go to see a movie you like", he's using "you like" to mean that that's the opinion he formed on the movie after he saw it. Basically he's saying "It's like when you go see a movie you end up liking, and someone says "the book was much better".

Other mediums are filled with their own shit, man. For every classic piece of literature, there are hundreds of novels that are little more than trashy entertainment.

So enjoying a thing more than another thing = the douchiest snobbiest ever?

This might be slightly off-topic, but the way I see it it has nothing to do with allegedly poor writing or story-telling. While people talk about games having this amazing potential for immersion I find the opposite to be true. In my experience I have a much easier time getting wrapped up in a story while watching a movie than playing a game. A game can have great writing but it just tends to get lost on me because I'm busy enjoying the gamplay, and if the game just has servicable gameplay it annoys me to the point that even if it has good writing the gameplay ruins the experience. The beauty of passive entertainment is that you never have to think, you can just take it all in without being distracted by anything else going on.

Games are really great for experiences though (and by that I mean actual experiences, not "an entertainment experience"). The day people start realizing this instead of trying to out-do movies at what they're best at is the day we will truly start to see games grow into their full potential.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking about that earlier when on the bombcast they were talking about The Last of Us, and Brad was bordering on the 'good for a video game' thing and Vinny said, in a surprising manner, that it's good for any medium, and Brad questioned it.

@chemystery: While The Last of Us from a story perspective isn't entirely original, it wouldn't be considered bad from a movie perspective, I think it'd be really great. Some of it is predictable, yes, that comes with the unoriginality, but that's not a big problem.

Well yeah, the film is never going to top the book because nothing a filmmaker or a developer do can match what's in your own imagination. If you have an imagination, anyhow. I thought this bullshit was settled decades ago.

As far as the "for a videogame" thing; yeah I find it annoying. Not because it's similar to saying "the book was better" but because it's an entirely backhanded compliment. It's patronizing. Whenever someone comes off with that bullshit I just mutter "Cunt" and move on about my day. Either a game/novel/comic/film/tv show has a good story or it doesn't. It either has good characters or it doesn't. While caveats exist unique to each medium it doesn't take away from the fact that people loved the story in Nier, or that it was as good as something you'd find in any film or novel.

General Rant: What I've discovered is that there are people who genuinely believe that video game stories are not as good as novels and that's fair. Each person comes to this hobby for different reasons; but there is another group that I take issue with. They're the people who are pussies because they're afraid to state that they outright like something. They're afraid that they'll be seen as unintelligent or "low brow" for stating satisfaction with the narrative in a video game or anything at all, really. It's a lot like those people who claim to enjoy something "ironically" or that it's a "guilty pleasure". No it's not you fucking wanker; you enjoy it. Own it.

@hailinel: And I won't argue that either. I'm not saying games are inherently worse than other mediums at storytelling, but the roof for the top tier is a lot lower so far. Trash is going to be trash, no matter what medium you use, no reason to compare those.

@ntm: I think my real issue is that I thought that game was going to tackle some really interesting topics and it just fizzled out on it. I thought they were going to talk about the whole trauma of being a survivor thing but I didn't get that vibe at all. At no point do you ever have any real reason to question Joel or what he does. I can honestly say if The Last of Us came out in theaters, I would not go see it. It would be another bland zombie movie amongst a trend.

I'm not satisfied with the dogshit high school composition-level writing that almost all story-focused games have, sorry.

I think we're just about past that. Games like BioShock Infinite and Last of Us are just great stories, regardless of medium. That being said, there's still a whole lot of really, really shit video game stories.

Then he should've phrased it differently.

Again, I don't see the problem with someone thinking the book is better than the film adaptation.

@xalienxgreyx: There are a lot of great games on that list (not all of them I have played) but I would disagree that most of them have as of good stories compared to other mediums. I think video games excel in world building and having a sense of place, but when it comes to plot and pacing, they pale in comparison, just due to the general nature of what they are. The player sets the pace and if you end up getting lost or you have to repeat one part over and over can hurt the flow of the narrative. Game play mechanics create this problem to. Having to go fight random encounters over and over in a Final Fantasy game is core to the game play but does nothing really as far as story is concerned.

And again I don't say this saying that i think all game stories are terrible or they will never be as good as other things. I just don't think they have hit those highs to the same level that I experienced from books and film. I totally would love to play a game that does that for me one day it just hasn't happened yet.

Then don't die XD

But seriously I can see that being a huge immersion break for people, For example that was one of the criticism reviewers gave Uncharted 3. But this is something we can not really change. We will also see a diversion? regarding the storytelling and the game play. For example Tomb Raider did this or Uncharted. The moment you have a seen were you see the protagonist breaking down or getting hurt by something the actual gameplay would not punish that much. Like getting shot in gameplay will always be different than getting shot in a cutscene. But again we have t live with that to make gameplay still enjoyable. But storyteling in games has really evolved in this generation and I am really thankful for that. A story does not need to be complex or deep to be enjoyable what matters is how it is presented.

But overall I must say that I am more invest in these games when they are good then I am in Movies or books. And I changed to the point that I play games because of the story and not really the gameplay when it comes to AAA retail games.

You summed it up well. I think The Last of Us has a brilliant story better than a ton of movies, but if the game sucked who cares? Conversely I really like the Metal Gear Solid games, but their stories are bloated and often tell more than they show -- but the games play great so I don't care.

The OP fails to acknowledge that is is every medium - "it's a good story for a superhero comic", "it's a good story for a big dumb action film". Few stories are truly brilliant and even less are video game stories that don't require the preface.

but the book WAS better

did you even play the game? One of the biggest themes in the last of us is survivors guilt.

The Wonderful 101 has the greatest story in any video game.

This thread's all right. For a video game forum anyway. I prefer the original.

I would hope people don't say that simply to be snide.

I think it's an acknowledgment that video games, as a medium, still harbor some huge impediments to competent storytelling due to the very nature of what they are. And these are things that creators haven't yet surmounted, at least with any sort of regularity. When they do, the low ceiling for video game stories will probably rise. I'd say we saw a few promising steps forward this gen already.

There's clear limitations of storytelling in games. Everything must revolve around some sort of gameplay which severely handicaps the creative freedom of the writer. There's video game stories that are better than other video game stories, but on the grand scheme of things, they're not that great.

I like stories in books and films better because the media allows for anything to happen (or not happen), and the end result doesn't need to be a certain thing, like gameplay.

I still think you could say "It's good for a video game" without sounding snobby and patronizing. Video games doesn't exist in a vacuum, nothing does really.

It's unfair to blame narrative due to user error

It's like showing a blind person a film and asking them to describe how it makes them feel

Remember how the main antagonist in Final Fantasy IX decides he wants to blow up the whole world because he's grumpy about the fact that he's not going to live forever? Get real; it sucks, even by video game standards.

He wants to destroy life because he's an imperfect creation that failed to surpass his creator and finds out he's only a pawn like the black mages he perceived as soulless beings that were designed only to serve those with higher willpower or those deemed to possess souls. When he finds out that he simply a creation designed to help Garland achieve his goals, as well as inferior to his brother Zidane he choose to destroy those who would otherwise use him for their own personal gains.

It's described through Kuja's character the entire game

"The weak lose their freedom to the strong. Such is the way of the strong. And it is the providence of nature that only the strong survive."

The game foreshadows Kuja's decent into madness, it's not because he finds out he's not going to live forever.

He throws nations into chaos and conflict in order to prove his superiority over Zidane and Garland, as well as obtain power to become something greater than his intended purpose.

Kuja is obviously a sociopath unable to perceive other living things than objects to help him become a being greater than the lifeforms of Terra. The lifeforms that he was created to rebuild their world at the price of his life. He refuses to accept his fate as a tool of Garland, and proves it by not only killing Garland, his father, but by also killing the residents, or souls, of Terra in defiance of his purpose in life.

It is only when he faces true destruction, his true death, face to face, that he realizes the value of life, and saves his brother Zidane and his comrades. He manages to finally surpass Garland in death by saving Zidane and proving that his brother, created for the same use as himself, pure destruction, is able to save the world he helped Garland throw in ruin. He defeats Garland by proving that Zidane was able to defy Garland and become something greater than the sum of them both, a human with the ability to love and be loved by others.

I read the text it seems like you skimmed over it.

"Fly home to your mother, my little canary. I, too, will welcome you home with open arms."

Also don't get me started talking about how I think Zidane destroyed the Summoner's Village the day he was created which cause Garnet/Dagger/Sarah and her mother to flee launching the events of the game.

That's where I differ. I mean, I probably wouldn't go see it in theaters either, because I don't care for those kinds of movies, but if I did see it eventually, I'd probably think I should have seen it in theaters. I feel you do question Joel's choice, at least coming up to, and after the end. While I think the story is pretty top notch for what it is in its genre (not as in game genre), I do think it has some unoriginal aspects, but for me that aspect is negligible compared to the other aspects that make me feel for the characters. I also just love the experience of exploring the environments, which also has a story to it. I understand where you're coming from, and I've questioned it as I played it, but no, to me it's better than your typical zombie outbreak story that's seen in film, as for books, I don't know.