" A lot of people who play Halo multiplayer (and CoD) tend to be rather annoying, but I wouldn't class them as the hardcore fans. I'd also say that most of the time the fans are only defending the game from unwarranted hate. I think the Final Fantasy VII fans who consider the story complex, and every other game unsophisticated are far more annoying. Ditto for MGS. The 14 year old furry fanbase that continues to support Sonic through terrible game after terrible game are pretty creepy as well. "
I had one of of those furry kids as a roommate, except he was all about shadow...it was really creepy
@neozeke: You have your opinions, I have mine. I find many books extremelly overrated and wish I never wasted my time. If Final Fantasy had been a book written 60years ago it would be regarded as classic medevil fantasy novel. You can lie to yourself and say otherwise, but the characte of Zidane and Princess Garnet are far supirior to overrated trash like Catcher In The Rye, The Great Gasby, and (although still good, just slightly overrated but still well written and told) How to Kill a Mockingbird.
And I know I'm going to get hell for this, but I may as well say it. Lord of the Rings is overrated, I prefer Final Fantasy.
" @xaLieNxGrEyx: This isn't about hate, but I will go ahead and explain my comments.
" to say FFVII is a poor game, or undeserving of it's acclaim seems like a very silly and immature thing to say. "
It may seem like that, but on closer examination FFVII just does not hold up as well as FFIX. It's one of the worst games in the series. I don't want to explain why here; go ahead and listen to the podcast, those guys do a tremendous job of summarizing why it's not as good as people think it is.
" Also, MGS is one of the greatest series in gaming. "
Just before I touch upon this, I just want to say that I ran a Metal Gear blog for a while a few years back. Not that this gives me special insight; I just want to point out that I'm familiar with the games. I've cleared MGS2 an unreasonable amount of times.
Metal Gear is just not as good as people think it is. Its gameplay and design was special up until 2002, but afterward other developers did more things better, and Metal Gear has just fallen behind to the point where it's become embarrassing. Story-wise, Metal Gear is similarly not as good as people think it is. Its script is shoddy, its dialogue immature, and its character development meek. Snake Eater's story was by in large a huge waste of time. Sons of Liberty was the series' peak, where Kojima was attempting to get aside some interesting themes. (Unfortunately, Kojima just doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't understand world politics, and he shouldn't be commenting on environmental issues or world peace, because nobody really cares.)
Gameplay wise, MGS3 was already years behind its competition. Max Payne 2, GTA San Andreas were better games by far. MGS4 was no good. It tried to mix elements of western game design but only went half-way, and picked the bad bits above all. Eurogamer gave it an accurate score - 8. Its perfect scores were utterly unwarranted, something people are only beginning to realize now.
To try and turn this back toward the topic, Metal Gear fans reject all of this and think Kojima is god.
" @ZanzibarBreeze: Also may I claim ignorance and ask who are those people you mentioned above? "
That's not ignorance, don't worry. :) All those guys used to work for 1UP.com, not everybody knows who they are, and it's not essential knowledge or anything. "
To be honest, saying Max Payne 2 and San Andreas are better than MGS3 gameplay wise I pure opinion. I didn't play MGS3 until Subsistence came out, but I sure as hell would never play MP2 or San Andreas more than once, but I would totally play MGS3 again. I really don't think MGS is the best thing ever, and while I enjoyed MGS4 a lot I know it did a bunch of things wrong to the story(OH GOD AFTER THE CREDITS WHY?). As for FF7, it's not a bad game at all, but surely there are better games in the series. Heck, I prefer Crisis Core myself. Regardless, I despise it's fanbase(I think I hate KH's more even if I voted for FF7) despite how important of an RPG it is. Think about it. Before FF7, every RPG wanted to be like Dragon Quest. Then after, virtually every RPG tries to be like FF7, aside from some games like Mario RPGs, Mother games, and the occasional notable WRPG like Fallout, Planescape Torment, or Morrowind.
@ZanzibarBreeze: I know what I'm talking about, I'm going through for Literature and Pitch writing, I've read many a book or two. This is my opinion, if 13 year olds on a gaming site want to laugh at me then so be it.
" "I'm going to say one last thing, FFVII is over 10years old now. People still talk about it more than any other game." and they need to get over it. Its not a good story. its an awful story. I remember playing it on my brand new playstation. I also remember beating and saying to my brother "seventy hours, for this?" "
FF7 didn't offer anything new story-wise, aside from a few notable characters and moments. FF6's story is virtually the same in a different setting and executed far better.
Final Fantasy, not just VII, it's the fact FF fans are really split and they always think their favorite FF is the "true" final fantasy, it's annoying because in most of every thread about FF they wouldn't stop shitting in them with their favorite FF is better than yours crap.
Edit: FFVII seems to be the worst just because it's the most mainstream one, but really it isn't, you get the same annoying people defending all the shitty flaws in each and every new game that keeps coming out.
@dulmonkey: Argh, FFVII isn't my fav game, it isn't even in my top 5. It isn't my fav FF, and I would prob say IX is the better game. All I'm doing is pointing out that hating on FFVII for it's minor flaws, or hating on it for the sake of hating on it is silly. What the game did to the industry far out weighs any minor flaw it may, (and does) carry with it.
@xaLieNxGrEyx: While Lord of the Rings surely isn't overrated, I agree the Catcher in the Rye is crap. Holden Caulfield is a whiney little bitch with not many interesting things to say, and whenever he does have something interesting to say he tends to say it in a way I cannot stand hearing. Insanely overrated book.
@Dan_CiTi: Lord of the Rings is great, but just like FFVII it has fans that claim it to be the second coming of christ when in reality it is just a well told engaging story with iconic villians and a memorable journey.
I'd say Call of Duty, there was once a time where I would call myself an avid Call of Duty fan having played the original PC game so damn much. But with the release of Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, an whole new set of douchbag fans have taken over whose very purpose in life is to bitch about Infinity Ward, make videos for YouTube showing endless faults and cheating and swearing constantly.
Seriously, why the living hell are those Modern Warfare 2 videos so popular on YouTube? So many people really find those videos fascinating? I can understand movies of skilled players and some are of skilled MW2 players, but most of them are about players cheating their way to high scores and everyone saying what great players they are. It's sad to see what a total mess Call of Duty as become, fanbase of the original when it hit PC's was awesome.
" @ZanzibarBreeze: I know what I'm talking about, I'm going through for Literature and Pitch writing, I've read many a book or two. This is my opinion, if 13 year olds on a gaming site want to laugh at me then so be it. "
Final Fantasy is arguable, generally it borrows heavily from classic writting. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I'm not sure if it's more of a Japanese trend so it may be unfair to judge it for this, but the story does become very convoluted in a false attempt to make it seem deep and complex. The spin-offs and sequels don't help by introducing characters like Genesis that add nothing to the story but more layers of nonsense. I'd still consider VII a great game, but again, I'd say you'r proving my previous point about why FFVII fanboys are bad.
And if you really are as much into books as you're claiming, the flaws in Metal Gear Solid should be readily apparant. Horrid pacing, pointless characters, filler upon filler (MGS4 especially had no real drive until the fourth chapter!) and more melodrama than any kind of real emotion.
i dont really understand why you've given the series titles for all of them but "final fantasy 7". the reason people like final fantasy 7 is it was the definitive rpg for its time and introduced a lot of things which the genre has become known for (not hardcore ff7 fanboy btw...) . as for 'final fantasy' having hardcore fans i wouldn't say they are the worst. at least they turn out interesting fan fiction and fan art, and its generally got a pop culture phenomenon around it beyond just the games, which is what i would consider it's 'hardcore fan base' and not necessarily the fans of the games, as usually the fans like certain ff's but hate others.
as for the question, it is without a doubt a contest between Halo and Zelda. like how the new Zelda looks like nothing compared to what Metal Gear Solid Rising will be able to do, but the fan boys will still be screaming 10 out of 10 at the top of their lungs, even when it becomes clear first hand that there is no 1:1 slashing. likewise i remember the outrage when (i 'think' it was Jeff) GameSpot gave twilight princess a 6.7 or something and fanboys went into a fit. To be quite honest I think it doesn't look very good whatsoever, but people keep buying it so they'd be crazy not to just keep chucking them out of the hat, kind of like Mario games. Halo I'm not very knowledgeable of beyond playing Combat Evolved and not liking it a whole lot, but the stories you hear about the sort of 'kids' who play them is pretty lame. Also I don't see what makes it so much better than any other FPS out there. Fable would be in the same situation as Halo with the hardcore kiddy fans. I was working at a video store a month or two ago and this 10 year old came in, looked at the 360 section and boldly stated "god they don't even have fable 3 here yet" *disgusted look on his face*. Though I suppose that incident swung my views on Fable fans, lol.
My favourite novels, before anyone asks or accuses my of ignorance
In no order
1. Of Mice and Men 2. Watchmen 3. A Clockwork Orange 4. The Road 5. No Country For Old Men 6. Fight Club 7. The Hobbit 8. Beowulf And others that escape my memory at this time. And BTW The Hobbit > LOTR
@xaLieNxGrEyx: I will agree that FF7 changed the industry. But that was close to fifteen years ago and the story was bad, like most games from that time. and to be clear, I'm 'hating' on that game because i didn't like it. I had trouble with the whole "I'm full of angst because I'm a clone, but I'm going to share memories with my childhood friend" parts. Stuff like that were just lame.
@WinterSnowblind: I don't know dude, I just really enjoy MGS over it's flaws.... I cried at the end of MGS3, and I cried at the end of Toy Story 3. Both for entirely different reasons, and both I will remember forever.
@dulmonkey: See, that's untrue. Cloud was never full of angst, as he didn't know he was a "clone" which he wasn't that was Sephiroth trying to break him down. And cloud's "emo" nature is justified imo, he watch his best and only friend die, and his hero burn down his hometown and almost kill his childhood crush. Also cloud isn't a clone, he is just infused with Jenova cells when he was almost killed in Niebilhiem. (Sorry about spelling laying down 3am...)
@xaLieNxGrEyx: ah, I missed that. I remember thinking "hes a clone? wait, that doesn't work." thanks for clearing that up. I'll recant that one point, as it was my error. But on the rest, sir, i disagree. Even with that one point resolved, i never liked the story.
" @neozeke: You have your opinions, I have mine. I find many books extremelly overrated and wish I never wasted my time. If Final Fantasy had been a book written 60years ago it would be regarded as classic medevil fantasy novel. You can lie to yourself and say otherwise, but the characte of Zidane and Princess Garnet are far supirior to overrated trash like Catcher In The Rye, The Great Gasby, and (although still good, just slightly overrated but still well written and told) How to Kill a Mockingbird. And I know I'm going to get hell for this, but I may as well say it. Lord of the Rings is overrated, I prefer Final Fantasy. "
The reason why Catcher In The Rye is so highly regarded, is mainly for how it portrays teenage life. By that I mean, it exemplifies the feeling many people feel as they reach the time they become an adult. This is shown through Holden's actions at the end of the story, mostly in the passage where he tries to erase the "Fuck" signs he finds in his sisters school. The book isn't remembered for Holden bitching and being a spoiled ass, undeserving brat. It's remembered for showing that even people that have everything get depressed, and exemplifying emotions felt reaching up to the years prior to adulthood. While it's still overrated, I feel that it still is significant, and has earned it's place in the literary world.
And dude, don't kid yourself, it would be regarded as a boring version of Lord of the Rings, with Frodo replaced with Holden Caulfield and 100 times more angsty and bitchy.
Just so you know, I do really enjoy the FF games, it's just that, they really aren't that fantastic story wise. I don't mean any offense, but I find the stories boring and find most of the dialogue kinda stupid or overbearing.
" @mazik765: Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII, and IX are all memorable classics that rival the story telling of great books. I'm a fan of literature and I greatly appreciate the efforts put into these timeless masterpieces. Also Final Fantasy was created with the idea in mind not creat an action game, but to create an interactive story. "
By the way, never repeat this sentence ever again, unless you want people to laugh at you. I'm sorry, but Final Fantasy VII does not rival The Brothers Karamazov or Haruki Murakami or Necromancer or... It doesn't even rival The Da Vinci Code. :) "
Oh zing! Eat that Dan Brown! But i have to agree with Zanzibar, Final Fantasy isn't really anything special gameplay or story wise, and the stories presented aren't really that great or original. The presentation of each respective story is decent, but I would not say that any FF out now rivals any book, besides the Twilight books, which suffer from horrible prose and massive cliches. Even in the world of gaming, they still aren't that great of stories. "
Dammit, you managed to capture a permanent snapshot in time where I typed Necromancer rather than Neuromancer. I've got no idea how this incredible slip occurred, but I unreservedly apologize to William Gibson.
I think people are just thinking too hard into it, I like the plot to FFVII because it is simple, well told (for the most part) and has enough hidden plot points to uncover that you never even need to. I also feel that they game goes into each characters back story and fleshes out the world better than any FF before or after it, with the slight exception of IX. I'm just trying to say, it isn't a bad game, like, come on.
" My favourite novels, before anyone asks or accuses my of ignorance In no order 1. Of Mice and Men 2. Watchmen 3. A Clockwork Orange 4. The Road 5. No Country For Old Men 6. Fight Club 7. The Hobbit 8. Beowulf And others that escape my memory at this time. And BTW The Hobbit > LOTR "
And yet somehow you manage to put Final Fantasy (and maybe Metal Gear) on the same scale -- even though I would slice #2, #5, #6, and #7 from that list. You have truly baffled me, mein freund.
Final Fantasy X had the best story in the series for my money, in any case.
And we must all remember: Uncharted 2 dances on the graves of the Metal Gear series and Final Fantasy VII.
this thread is fail. some of the choices are a hidden bash at games the poster just doesnt like himself. i would argue any moron who defends any game or franchise until they are blue in the face is an immature moron who cant come to terms that another person does not feel the same that they do about it. the same can be said for rabid fans of a sports team or anything. just call this what it is. fanboys are fanboys. period. they are reserved a special place in hell next to the devil's toilet.
@ZanzibarBreeze: Actually, I'm sure if you watch/read No Country For Old Men again you may just find that it is in fact quite amazing. Watchmen is a love it or hate it. The Hobbit is imo better than any of the LOTR books. Final Fantasy X best story? Mmnnn, it's hard to hate because it is incredably simple, and almost flawless, but I would have to say I prefer VI,VII, VIII, and IX plot wise to X. I enjoy me some Uncharted 2, and I appreciate the history incorperated into the story, and the gameplay and set pieces are fucking fantastic, but i still can't say it's better than MGS or FFVII, I just can't.
Like I can't shake the though that I was playing Crash Bandicoot and Raymen around the same time as FFVII. And although all great games, FFVII was just, I dunno, more. And now we have seen much better platformers than Crash And Raymen, but I don't believe we have seen anything flat out better than FFVII.
" I'm just trying to say, it isn't a bad game, like, come on. "
I fully agree. And I don't want anyone to mistake my opinion for being that every Metal Gear game is bad - I would give MGS3, MGS4 7/8 out of ten. I don't think FFVII is a bad game; it's just so desperately overrated. When you look back at it now, it's just not worth playing. It can literally be thrown away; we don't need it.
But I will hold no reservation in saying that its story is terrible, as is the Metal Gear series. If you're going to defend those games, you really shouldn't start with their stories. :)
" My favourite novels, before anyone asks or accuses my of ignorance In no order 1. Of Mice and Men 2. Watchmen 3. A Clockwork Orange 4. The Road 5. No Country For Old Men 6. Fight Club 7. The Hobbit 8. Beowulf And others that escape my memory at this time. And BTW The Hobbit > LOTR "
And yet somehow you manage to put Final Fantasy (and maybe Metal Gear) on the same scale -- even though I would slice #2, #5, #6, and #7 from that list. You have truly baffled me, mein freund.Final Fantasy X had the best story in the series for my money, in any case. And we must all remember: Uncharted 2 dances on the graves of the Metal Gear series and Final Fantasy VII. "
I agree with you, FOR THE MOST PART (Dum Dum Dum!)
but I feel Watchmen could make it into a list of the best novels of all time, albeit it would be towards the end of the list.
@ZanzibarBreeze: Come on, you're telling me yoy felt nothing at the end of MGS3? Or you don't still have the entire Neibelhiem scene etched into your brain? I love these games FOR their stories, I'm in love with them even with their flaws.
There are a bunch of elitist, smug Fallout 1 and 2 fans. Sure, Fallout 3 is a radical change in direction to the game, but get off your high horse. Fallout 3 isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and the strategy/tactical gameplay of the first two Fallout games are outdated.
Halo and Call of Duty do have a bunch of annoying people playing the game, but I've met a few great people off of them, so I can't really complain too much. Also, a large part of the problem is that a lot of underaged kids play these games and they don't know how to not act batshit insane.
Now, the game that has the worst fans in my mind are hardcore sport game fans (if I had to choose a single game it would be any Madden game you could play online). You encounter all of the annoying people, racists, and trash talkers, but with more people that do cheap things and exploits. It has been years since I've played any sport game online, but I'm willing to bet the majority of the people online stick to the same few plays, stick to plays that exploit a game's AI, abuse user ratings, or any of the other problems I no longer remember.
" @ZanzibarBreeze: Come on, you're telling me yoy felt nothing at the end of MGS3? Or you don't still have the entire Neibelhiem scene etched into your brain? I love these games FOR their stories, I'm in love with them even with their flaws. "
Then you're too close to them. I had a teacher that said "Never have a friend or significant other critique your work, because they'll just gloss over all the flaws, have a stranger do it since they'll catch all the flaws."
You're too close to those games to give an opinion that isn't biased. I know I sound like a dick, but you even said that these games are comprible to Lord of The Rings, one of the most insanely influential pieces of literature of all time. And I say that hating the Lord of The Ring trilogy. I cannot stand those books, but I won't deny their influence.
" There are a bunch of elitist, smug Fallout 1 and 2 fans. Sure, Fallout 3 is a radical change in direction to the game, but get off your high horse. Fallout 3 isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and the strategy/tactical gameplay of the first two Fallout games are outdated.
Well, I think it's somewhat justified that they hate Fallout 3. I mean imagine waiting for the third game in your favorite franchise for 10(?) years and have it have almost nothing in common with it's precursors, it would be a kick in the balls.
" @ZanzibarBreeze: Come on, you're telling me yoy felt nothing at the end of MGS3? Or you don't still have the entire Neibelhiem scene etched into your brain? I love these games FOR their stories, I'm in love with them even with their flaws. "
I see the end of MGS3 as a failure. It had a convoluted conspiracy theory plot that just didn't make sense. Those things don't actually happen, and sacrificing one person doesn't ease over diplomatic relationships for all time. If you're referring to the whole "having to pull the trigger" thing, well, I didn't even realize what I had to do at first. But then I tried to skip the scene and killed her. Didn't move me at all. I just don't care about the Boss. She's a boring, sick character. Why doesn't she just tell Snake the truth from the start? There's no reason not to. Just tell him that you're doing what the US government wants you to do, as a "soldier" he should understand. Instead she breaks her best friend's arm and condemns him to death by throwing him from a bridge, in a fall that would kill any human being. In the final analysis, all MGS3 did was prove that every character in the game is a psychopath.
The whole game could have been avoided if the Boss had said just one thing to Snake: "I didn't defect. I've been sent here to die."
Snake doesn't even have to kill her. All she would have to do was to prove she was aligned with Volgin (for the US not to be implicated, et cetera, people who have played the game know the plot).
The whole plot of MGS3 is completely absurd; it doesn't need to exist! It's like going the long way around for no reason, like flying east from New York to reach California, all across the world, when you could just fly west and take the shortcut. Why didn't Kojima take the shortcut? Because he can't see the plotholes. He's not the best storyteller of all time; he's really not very good at all.
When people say they like the Metal Gear story, they mean they like the idea of the Metal Gear story. You can't really like the actual story, because the actual story is just not up to scratch.
People with extreme opinions in general irritate me, whether its love or hate of something I don't think theirs any reason to go to such extremes unless your talking about like... criminal activity.
I mean fuck I love Lost Planet 2 but I completely agree that alot of its design is really stupid, I enjoy it enough to ignore the flaws like anyone whose a fan of something but I'm not going to actively defend it like its some sacred flawless thing.
" There are a bunch of elitist, smug Fallout 1 and 2 fans. Sure, Fallout 3 is a radical change in direction to the game, but get off your high horse. Fallout 3 isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and the strategy/tactical gameplay of the first two Fallout games are outdated.
Well, I think it's somewhat justified that they hate Fallout 3. I mean imagine waiting for the third game in your favorite franchise for 10(?) years and have it have almost nothing in common with it's precursors, it would be a kick in the balls. "
I can agree with them being upset, but only to a point. The only thing I've seen at No Mutants Allowed's forum is bitching about Fallout 3. Why not bitch about Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, be happy that Interplay is making Vault:13 or whatever the Fallout MMO is, or just accept the fact that their beloved game series has changed and continue to cling onto the same two games?
Metal Gear and Halo fans over any choice you've listed. I love reading arguments on the internet that try to convince anyone that the plot of Halo 1-3 is anything other than complete storytelling ineptitude. The plot of the Halo series makes the Gears of War games look like BioShock.
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