Will we ever see a JRPG resurgence?

It's weird how apathetic I am towards JRPG's now and I'm not sure when that happened. I used to love them, but now I'm not even looking forward to Final Fantasy XII-2, when in the past FF games were some of the only ones I looked forward to. Are they really that bad now or am I just growing up? What do you think it would take for them to make a comeback?

Sidenote: I play the shit out of western style RPG's, so I don't think the RPG format is my problem.

Different strokes, different folks. If a genre doesn't appeal to you, that's not a problem with the game or the genre, as both most likely appeal to others. There are a lot of great FPS and RTS titles out there, but I can't maintain any serious interest in games of either genre for more than a little while. That doesn't mean that either genre needs to be saved.

I remember reading somewhere that JRPGs have simply moved to handhelds, where the format serves them pretty well.

@Video_Game_King said:

I remember reading somewhere that JRPGs have simply moved to handhelds, where the format serves them pretty well.

What he said. Its a great place to play them currently, its an embarrassment of riches over on the PSP.

FF13-2 actually sounds a lot better than 13 does if you didn't like 13 for anything other than it's battle system (if you didn't like that then you should probably skip it)

2012 doesn't have much else though; besides Devil Survivor 2 (not REALLY a JRPG), maybe Persona 5, it's really all I can think of.

Short answer, yes.

I think that style is already beginning to show some new blood again and people are noticing, partly in response to BioWare Infinite. If BioWare Infinite really does become a problem, I think we'll see a lot of gamers' time start to divide between their titles and Atlus's Shin Megami Tensei games. The moment Square finally does release Kingdom Hearts III, JRPGs are going to look HUGE again. And I honestly think Kingdom Hearts probably offers the closest thing to what RPGs need to offer; JRPGs need to seriously lighten up! Traditional anime-based story structure actually works best when its characters are happy-go-lucky individuals who are generally good and/or flawless. That's specifically why the best anime subverts those expectations, but in JRPGs we're seeing a problem where every high-profile RPG is based around tragic near-psychotic characters or people with deep, deep flaws. This is a problem that probably stems back to the reverence for Final Fantasy VI and VII, but the style is so revered that nobody is interested in doing anything else! We need some games about some adventurers who just want to see a fun world, if nothing else so that we don't expect all our characters to be super-dark flawed badasses.

Short answer, yes.

I think that style is already beginning to show some new blood again and people are noticing, partly in response to BioWare Infinite. If BioWare Infinite really does become a problem, I think we'll see a lot of gamers' time start to divide between their titles and Atlus's Shin Megami Tensei games. The moment Square finally does release Kingdom Hearts III, JRPGs are going to look HUGE again. And I honestly think Kingdom Hearts probably offers the closest thing to what RPGs need to offer; JRPGs need to seriously lighten up! Traditional anime-based story structure actually works best when its characters are happy-go-lucky individuals who are generally good and/or flawless. That's specifically why the best anime subverts those expectations, but in JRPGs we're seeing a problem where every high-profile RPG is based around tragic near-psychotic characters or people with deep, deep flaws. This is a problem that probably stems back to the reverence for Final Fantasy VI and VII, but the style is so revered that nobody is interested in doing anything else! We need some games about some adventurers who just want to see a fun world, if nothing else so that we don't expect all our characters to be super-dark flawed badasses.

JRPGs were nothing to me until I played Persona 4 anyway, now I just wait for Atlus to release more because they're one of the few developers making anything better than average JRPGs.

@WatanabeKazuma said:

@Video_Game_King said:

I remember reading somewhere that JRPGs have simply moved to handhelds, where the format serves them pretty well.

What he said. Its a great place to play them currently, its an embarrassment of riches over on the PSP.

As well as the DS, both in terms of remakes of classic games and original titles.

@Animasta said:

FF13-2 actually sounds a lot better than 13 does if you didn't like 13 for anything other than it's battle system (if you liked that then you should probably skip it)

2012 doesn't have much else though; besides Devil Survivor 2 (not REALLY a JRPG), maybe Persona 5, it's really all I can think of.

As a North American, I'm glad I'll finally have a chance to play Xenoblade Chronicles without having to go to the extent of modifying my Wii and importing the European version. And why would you tell people that liked FFXIII's battle system to skip FFXIII-2?

I do not believe that JRPG's will ever have the sweeping pan-media success that it found on the SNES and the Sega Genesis, unless some high profile rapper can give the genre his endorsement. You see, the reason why the games were so popular in the early to mid s was because biggie went on the record saying that Secret of Mana was his favorite game; nowadays rappers just play Call of Duty (Unless you're Lil Wayene and playing FIFA), so that is what is popular.

@Animasta said:

FF13-2 actually sounds a lot better than 13 does if you didn't like 13 for anything other than it's battle system (if you liked that then you should probably skip it)

Wat?!

That would surely be all the more reason to give it a shot.

Well I seriously doubt they'll cease to exist, but I think like a lot of genres that were huge in the 90s, it's been relegated to niche status, and I'm fairly convinced it'll stay that way.

Personally I miss the relative popularity of Elite clones, or just straight space combat games like Freespace 2, or even something a little more casual like Rogue Squadron.

@Animasta: Tales of the Abyss comes out for 3DS (which doesn't really count since its a remake). Also I think NA is getting Xenoblade sometime this year (which was a fantastic game). Also I think Gungnir was recently announced for the PSP (I think its a JRPG).

It'll happen. The fact that so much of the community is talking about the genre will not go unnoticed. Look at fighting games. They died and came back like a comic-book hero.

Absolutely, they kind of got stuck in a feedback loop for the past 10 years or so, but with the popularity of Skyrim (I think it's the 4th best selling game in Japan, only beaten by Monster Hunter - obviously, Super Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 7), I think they'll get a few new influences that will probably help the genre start evolving again, like it did when they got Wizardry and third hand representations of D&D mechanics (especially the morality system) in the early 80's.

@WatanabeKazuma said:

@Animasta said:

FF13-2 actually sounds a lot better than 13 does if you didn't like 13 for anything other than it's battle system (if you liked that then you should probably skip it)

Wat?!

That would surely be all the more reason to give it a shot.

I had just woken up jeez D:

I agree with the statements made about the genre moving to handhelds. JRPGs have been lame on consoles, but they still shine on handheld systems.

Disillusionment with JRPGs seems to have followed disillusionment with Final Fantasy but that doesn't mean the genre is doomed. Having said that, I don't think the current generation of consoles has been particularly successful as far as JRPGs go. The SMT series seems to be becoming more well-known which is a good thing for the genre, since it strikes a nice balance between traditional JRPG tropes and innovation. Problem is they're mostly on the PS2. JRPG fans can still find games to fulfill that preference but I just think Western RPGs are the flavour of the month/year/decade right now.

FF13-2 actually sounds a lot better than 13 does if you didn't like 13 for anything other than it's battle system (if you didn't like that then you should probably skip it)

2012 doesn't have much else though; besides Devil Survivor 2 (not REALLY a JRPG), maybe Persona 5, it's really all I can think of.

@MikkaQ: Well, I think the genre popularity will probably be cyclic, when they've pretty much milked out all the potential in the genre within the current limitations of the hardware, there needs to be a 10-15 year pause for new tech and new ideas to pop up. Just like how fighting games returned in the last couple of years, I'm sure space simulators, RTSes and tactical strategy games will make their glorious return within the next few years, as will JRPG's, while the FPS, MMORPG and cover-based-third-person-shooter games will probably take a hiatus for a while until new crazy tech shows up, or there's long enough between the games that the standard mechanics will feel fresh again.

@wmaustin55 said:

Are they really that bad now or am I just growing up? What do you think it would take for them to make a comeback? Sidenote: I play the shit out of western style RPG's, so I don't think the RPG format is my problem.

I think you're just growing out of your anime phase. Back when I was 16-19, I ate that shit up. It didn't matter what it was, I watched it. If it came from Japan, I played the shit out of it.

Now? I can't watch most anime. I think I've completed two series in the last five years; Claymore and Black Lagoon. JRPGs? I haven't made it past the first two hours in a JRPG since... FFX. I've just outgrown all that stuff. The fact that everything is animated and cutscened up now doesn't help, either. 16 bit-esque RPG's? I'm perfectly fine with, probably because it doesn't have the anime-esque cut scenes. When someone's jumping off screen to do an attack, in my mind, they're not jumping 5984638456 feet up into the air yelling, "HUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAH THE TIME FOR PEACE IS NO LONGER THE TIME FOR WAR, LOTUS BLOSSOM SMASH!"

One of my frustrations with DA2 was that it had elements of JRPG in it.

That said, Last Story. That shit needs to come out in the US.

@fisk0: But JRPGs don't demand much of the current hardware. Mechanically, they aren't too different from when they were playstation games.

I don't think there will ever be a JRPG resurgence like there was for fighting games, because of the nature of fighting games' resurgence. They pretty much picked up and became popular again as soon as online console gaming became as mainstream and easy to implement as it did this generation. Online went from being a fun bonus in some games to a core feature that permeates every aspect of a console. Competitive gaming of all types skyrocketed in popularity, so fighting games got swept up in that.

However, with JRPGs innovation was never really the name of the game. Hell I remember them basically being awesome demonstrations of technology and storytelling, like CG cutscenes when CD games were new, or just how detailed the stories got compared to other games of their time. Now fleshed out plots are commonplace in a lot of games, even shooters have detailed storylines. Now JRPGs don't really have anything unique to offer other than turn-based battle systems which aren't exactly interesting, or original these days. Where does that genre have to go? I think it was stretched to it's limit, or at least the limits of how far the developers are willing to innovate. But it has nothing to do with hardware limitations, and more to do with rigid development philosophies from Japan.

Another issue to consider is the cost of making games has risen significantly since HD became the norm. With JRPGs simply not being as popular as they were, companies aren't willing to invest massive sums of money in them. So the genre goes to handheld games, which is fine and dandy except for the fact that handhelds are waning too. The genre is stagnating hard.

They might pick up a little more than they have now, but it'll never be like the glory days.

I think part of this so-called decline of the JRPG/rise of the western RPG has a lot to do with the popular perception of Bioware. Although Mass Effect 2 received its share of criticisms for simplifying the gameplay of the original game, both it and Dragon Age: Origins were critical darlings, as is the vast majority of Bioware's back catalogue. (People tend to overlook the abject failure of Sonic Chronicles, but I digress). In this generation in particular, the west had found an RPG developer to put on a pedestal even though the structure or narrative of Bioware games haven't been particularly innovative. By comparison, people unfamiliar with JRPGs beyond a few select titles maintain a distant view of the JRPG genre, which for all of its variety, advancements, and innovations is still labeled by these people with the misconception of largely being stuck in 1997.

So in effect, Bioware was put in a position where they could feel comfortable saying and doing whatever they wanted because the press would fawn over them no matter what. They trashed the JRPG genre in interviews, claiming that their way of RPG design is the future. But that hubris has come back to bite them. Between the reception of Dragon Age II (which basically tried to pull a Mass Effect 2 on Dragon Age), and the supposed story leaks of Mass Effect 3 (which, if true, take a massive dump on the entire franchise), Bioware's untouchable status is slipping away from their grasp, and with it, the status of the western RPG as the "better" school of RPG design.

If fighting games and point and click games can come back, I don't see why not.

@wmaustin55:

Final Fantasy is not the only JRPG, I for one think that Persona and SMT are among the best games I have ever played, that not even mentioning Dark/Demons Souls

There have been several good JRPG's in recent years

Tales of Vesperia

Radiant Historia

Resonance of Fate

Star Ocean: The Last Hope

Magna Carta 2

The Last Remnant

Infinite Undiscovery

FFXIII

Lost Odyssey

Blue Dragon

I understand there was a decline, but nobody stopped making good JRPG's. Just less of them since games cost a lot more to make these days.

@Little_Socrates said:

We need some games about some adventurers who just want to see a fun world,

So you're saying we need something like the first Grandia again? 'Cause I am ALL for that.

@bananaz said:

It'll happen. The fact that so much of the community is talking about the genre will not go unnoticed. Look at fighting games. They died and came back like a comic-book hero.

Exactly what I was going to say even using the example of fighting games. It may take a while but then someday somebody will make one that gets noticed and they will come back in style. I honestly see shooters falling off in the next two-three years and they too will come back eventually and I don't mean they will completely go away but video games (though still really too young to say for sure) seem to go in cycles.

Lost Odysey was the only JRPG on this generation I finished plus all side bosses, it was pretty much a PSX style Final Fantasy that added some cool new mechanics to the proven turn based system, FFXIII was just awefull its like they lost what FF6-12 were all about, in my mind those FF's were all about created a big living world as much as they could with the limits of there tech at the time. Were as 13 was just GRAPHICS, FLASHY BATTLES and CORRIDORS. IF I CANT CASUALLY STROLL INTO A RANDOM FAMILYS HOUSE AND STEAL THEIR LIFETIME SUPPLY OF PHEONIX DOWNS THIS ISNT FINAL FANTASY!!!

Plus the whole number system now takes away the excitement of a new Final Fantasy, too many offshoots and FF13-Versus what a joke a action rpg just like Crisis Core that has nothing to do with 13 as far as I can tell, why even give it the FF name, make it a original IP. I think the best thing that could happen is Square loses a shit ton of money on this whole FF13 trilogy and they go back to their roots, a small budget turn based PSX era FF with fixed camera angles, focus more on an art style maybe even a cartoony cell shaded look instead of realism, I would be genuinely interested what that team could come up with on todays consoles by instead spending as much time on a town as they did for Lightnings fringe in 13.

I think theres divergent view on what JRPGs are supposed to be anymore these days. Seems as if a lot of people think that a JRPG or Eastern RPGs should all follow the same format of team, turn based combat in a semi open world. A lot of hate FF13 gets is probably because it completely shies away from this formula for good reason I think. Other more unique RPG's didn't even do very well. On one hand people want innovation but they don't want the publishers to stray from the formula too far. In the end you either get your FF13's or generic JRPG#63 that feels like a rehash of old ideas.

One thing that Eastern developers should maybe add into consideration for their games is grit. A lot of JRPGs if not all of them have a sweet and bubbly feel to them. Looking back at some animated series from the 90's or so, the Japanese are fully capable of executing dark and foreboding plots that are coherent and moving. Sadly I've yet to see them incorporate that into a game. Dark Souls comes close with the atmosphere but they choose to hold back on plot exposition for gameplay reasons which is a huge mistake in my opinion. The world of Dark Souls/Demons Souls is so thick with lore and interesting characters that it wouldn't hurt if they pulled back the curtain once in a while with a narrated cutscene. I digress though because thats not even a JRPG as much as an action game with RPG elements.

JRPGs have only been successful on Japanese Platforms.

@Bourbon_Warrior: There wasn't really any new mechanics in Lost Odyssey. The ring thing was pretty much just stolen from the Shadow Hearts judgement ring system.

@Buzzkill: What do you mean by Japanese Platforms?

@Devoid said:

@Little_Socrates said:

We need some games about some adventurers who just want to see a fun world,

So you're saying we need something like the first Grandia again? 'Cause I am ALL for that.

Reading about it, yes, that's exactly what we need. Also, I think I'm gonna go play that game someday soon, it looks like a good time.

The question really is whether JRPG's will make a comeback in the states akin to their heigh between the NES and the Playstation era. Like fighting games I doubt it will be the same but I'm sure we'll see it happen. However what those games will be that are labeled "JRPG" will have to be different in some way to justify itself. It can't just be the same old tired hat and that's been the reality of a lot of major JRPG releases for the last decade. That difference has been handhelds for Japan domestically but handheld gaming is most obviously a drastically changing beast now with the advent of iOS gaming.

Really what it takes is more than just one, maybe two, exciting devs from Japan to bring over their JPRG's over successfully to justify it like it once was. It can't just be Atlus making the cool stuff and Squeenix making these bloated projects that people might not even like anyway. Part of the reason we're even having this discussion is that the Japanese game industry is in a weird spot right now.

@Canteu said:

@Bourbon_Warrior: There wasn't really any new mechanics in Lost Odyssey. The ring thing was pretty much just stolen from the Shadow Hearts judgement ring system.

This is the only JRPG I played apart from Final Fantasy games and Chrono Trigger, I thought the Immortal/Mortal balance was cool cause you could make the Immortals OP by learning the mortals powers. Plus it had a simple easy to follow story with some cool moments, like having one of the immortals meet her son who was a old man when she looked late 20s at most. I got interested in this game because alot of the 90s FF dev team worked on it.

@Char12 said:

@Buzzkill: What do you mean by Japanese Platforms?

Consoles, hand helds ect...

Do JRPGs do well on the XBOX? Nope. It's a western platform. Do they do well on the PC? Nope, not unless it's an Asian region ect...

@Bourbon_Warrior: I'm not knocking the game. All the stuff you mentioned was really cool, especially the part with the immortal's son.

I just meant purely gameplay, it's identical to FF but with a ring system thrown in.

Although the funeral minigame was completely retarded.

@Char12:

You know, Japanese platforms, like those pagoda. Ya jump on em!

Ahh shit, this joke went nowhere.

@Tuffgong said:

The question really is whether JRPG's will make a comeback in the states akin to their heigh between the NES and the Playstation era. Like fighting games I doubt it will be the same but I'm sure we'll see it happen. However what those games will be that are labeled "JRPG" will have to be different in some way to justify itself. It can't just be the same old tired hat and that's been the reality of a lot of major JRPG releases for the last decade. That difference has been handhelds for Japan domestically but handheld gaming is most obviously a drastically changing beast now with the advent of iOS gaming.

Really what it takes is more than just one, maybe two, exciting devs from Japan to bring over their JPRG's over successfully to justify it like it once was. It can't just be Atlus making the cool stuff and Squeenix making these bloated projects that people might not even like anyway. Part of the reason we're even having this discussion is that the Japanese game industry is in a weird spot right now.

Never, JRPGs were only Popular in 90s/early 00's cause they did the most you could do with the tech limits. Look at skyrim its just leaps and bounds ahead of FFXIII now, who new to games would seriously pick up a JRPG over a Skyrim. I really want a good JRPG again but maybe just one real good one every couple of years but I cant see them surviving as really I think the only people that are even interested now are people who gamed in the 90s and has the nostolgia attached to them and that will slowly drop away as more people keep getting burned again and again, Square Enix just needs to figure out to cater to these people instead of going in crazy new routes like 13 did, and just accept they not gonna pull in the numbers they used too so maybe just lower the budget of these games and set their sales expectations lower.

Maybe but I dont think Ill ever be into JRPGs

@Canteu: Yes but this is what I like in a JRPG to me is the slow battles thinking about your next move like a game of chess, this is why I liked and finished it. Im just saying these are the only JRPGs im interested with and I know alot of people that used to love FF but now its all Skyrim, COD and Battlefield but even after COD4 came out they went and played to the end Lost Odysey, that formula of battle system really still works and 13 was faster, more stuff happening on screen but somehow just boring.

@wmaustin55:

I think JRPGs the way we knew about them are dead, for several pretty well documented reasons.

1) As the demographic ages(average video game player is mid-to-late 30s) so do tastes. The typical JRPG archetype is aimed at either girls(read: Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts series) with their ultra effeminate pretty boys, or perverted boys(see Hyperdimention Neptunia). Most adult men and women don't want to participate in that particular form of wankery.

2) Japan has lost any original idea for RPGs, almost every recent big(for the home consoles, not portable) JRPG out of Japan seems to hit all the buttons it needs to sell well in Japan and Japan only. This, to me, seems like design through market testing, not having a good idea and designing on it. Japan is notorious for committee-based design and all it leaves is a hollow shell(in my opinion).

3) It's dangerous to take risks. Developing a big game is expensive, especially on this current hardware. So the dudes who make JRPGs can decide this: Design for the market, sell to the market and see if they can make a profit(that market: otakus) or go with a genuinely original idea and move from there. The Japanese are pretty dogmatic with their game purchases(see examples Dragon Quest and Monster Hunter series) so going with an original idea is like playing Russian Roulette with your company. You make a huge investment only to put a bullet through your companies bottom line.

It's not all a bleak outlook though. The really interesting JRPGs have been coming out for the handheld market since it's considerably less to design for and has a quicker turn around time. This may change to the indie space as the HD-capable handhelds.

TL:DR - They'll exist, but they won't be as popular and they won't have as much mind-share as they're used to.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

FFX13 is much older than Skyrim...... and I pefer a linear story anyway...... so thanks for assuming everyone shares the same tastes as you

@wmaustin55:

I think JRPGs the way we knew about them are dead, for several pretty well documented reasons.

1) As the demographic ages(average video game player is mid-to-late 30s) so do tastes. The typical JRPG archetype is aimed at either girls(read: Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts series) with their ultra effeminate pretty boys, or perverted boys(see Hyperdimention Neptunia). Most adult men and women don't want to participate in that particular form of wankery.

Personally, I can't wait for the BRPGs (BollywoodRPGs) to catch on. It's like those Fanta and Skittles commercials you could edit yourself. I think we're past those early FMVs and ready for a full blown game!

@Char12 said:

@Bourbon_Warrior:

FFX13 is much older than Skyrim...... and I pefer a linear story anyway...... so thanks for assuming everyone shares the same tastes as you

Are you new to games? Did you play the PSX\PS2 Final Fantasys? Also a FFX-13 sound totally crazy where did you get this future game from?

@Bourbon_Warrior: Only FF Im played before 13 was 10-2 which was ok, after 13 I played almost all that I could get my hands on, I wouldn't say Im new to games, but neither am I that experienced. I do have Skyrim and while it has a good world the cons out weigh the pros, and if that is meant to be the pinacle of WRPGs then Il just stick to FF and Persona