Gamespot producer's attempt at censorship, and now something else

Topic started by Linkyshinks on Oct. 15, 2008. Last post by The_Ish 1 year ago.
Post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) See mini bio

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This is not the original post which I chose to remove, it does however explain all in a less volatile fashion ;)

Kristin Reilly, Producer of  Gamespot.com :

Okay girls and guys - I need a favor from all of you.

We’re having Onechanbara: Bikini Zombie Slayer’s on the show on On The Spot on Thursday at 4pm PST. Essentially it’s chicks in bikinis slaying zombies.

Obviously I’m NOT happy about the objectification of women in this game or how degrading it is. I actually nearly pulled the game from our show until I realized this would be a PRIME opportunity for female gamers to show a united front and make developers hear our voice - and realize that WE ARE here and aren’t going to take this bullpucky degradation quietly anymore.

This is where I’m hoping everyone can help me out. I’m going to be the host picking the audience questions. I would LOVE for you girls to chime in with questions for the developer. You can watch the show here and email in questions to onthespot (at) gamespot (dot) com.

Thanks so much for everyone’s help in advance!!!!!


This is Kristin:















Post by Player1 (1,898 posts) See mini bio
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EDIT- thanks for posting that.

Now I understand. 

More the reason to hate that site. This is just plain embarrassing. She is totally taking advantage of her job to get something she wants.

THIS IS THE ORGINAL POST THAT LINKYSHINKS SAID- MB

Here's the link to Kristin's blog, which this post refers to, reprinted here for your convenience!

Okay girls and guys - I need a favor from all of you.
We're having
this game on the show on On The Spot next Thursday at 4pm PST. Essentially it's chicks in bikinis slaying zombies.
Obviously I'm NOT happy about the objectification of women in this game or how degrading it is. I was tempted to pull the game from our show until I realized this would be a good opportunity for female gamers to show a united front and make developers hear our voice - and realize that WE ARE here and aren't appreciative of degredation in games.
This is where I'm hoping everyone can help me out. I'm going to be the host picking the audience questions. I would LOVE for you girls to chime in with questions for the developer. Obviously I'm not looking for a flame fest, constructive questions only.

You can watch the show here and email in questions to onthespot (at) gamespot (dot) com.

EDIT:

Okay I obviously need to clarify my views on this.

The thing that I'm irritated about is the BLATANT objectification of women in this game. The opening scene starts out in a shower, and then has a girl running around in a bikini. I don't know what you guys keep near your shower but my bikini is NOT the first thing I'd grab if the world were being overrun by zombies (they aren't that comfy to run in)
Look, I KNOW TnA sells, and sells lots. There's a reason pron is one of the biggest industries. What I'm cheesed off about is the fact that one of the main characters is in a bikini. There is NO reason for this choice of outfits, that's where I get offended. Laura Croft is sexual yet covered up. The school girl outfit I don't have a huge problem with, it's iconic in japan.
They want to be controversial and are hoping the drama will promote their game more - they subscribe to the mindset of no such thing as bad press.

Interestingly enough, I don't have a huge problem with DoA volleyball. That was tounge in cheek and while I don't support it, I can see the humor in it and it wasn't trying to hide behind a game.

I don't want viewers to email in questions that are inflammatory, I'm looking for well thought out, COHERENT questions that I may not think of prior to the show. I'm not going to attack the developer, only hope to open his eyes a bit to why the female demographic (which is 40% of games - we're not that much of a minority anymore) may be offended at this game.

Obviously my initial post was written through a haze of red anger, but I still stand by my beliefs. Sexual harassment is not tolerated in the work place, schools, or society. There's no reason it needs to be tolerated or propagated in video games. THAT'S what I'm getting at.

No offense to the guys, but you're incapable of understanding until you walk in a female gamers shoes. This is the sole reason for Xbox GamerChiX, PMS Clan, CaveGirls, Girlz of Distruction, and other female-oriented gaming clans/organizations/websites etc. Why did Bungie start cracking down on harassment in Halo? A few of the Bungie developers played a couple rounds of halo on my tag and a girlfriend's tag during GDC once. They didn't use the mics and we put headset sound through the tv. When they were finished they turned to my girlfriend and I and asked us, "Is it always like this? We knew it was bad but we didn't realize it was THIS bad."

And Linkyshinks, you need the whole background on why I picked the BatGirl name. I didn't pick it for the comics. This is why I picked the Batgirl name (pulled from a very old blog):
"I like the image of Batgirl. She is a superhero in every sense of the word - and is female. She's strong, independent, cunning, isn't afraid to stand up for herself, and cares about the people around her. She's kind and giving, yet when push comes to shove, she's got no problem kicking butt and taking names. She has no qualms getting in there with the boys and doesn't expect any special treatment and most importantly, she can hold her own. She is a GREAT roll model for girls in every age group. She's not an overtly sexual icon, but she has a sensuality to her that's alluring and fun....The Batgirl character is smart and uses stereotypes to her advantage. I try to do the same and don't let them hold me back. You can either let yourself be a victim and held back, or you can overcome and use your circumstances to your advantage. I see Batgirl as always using her environment and circumstances for her advantage - and I model my life after that."


@ronniepage588 - your comment deserves some correction. I am on the show because I know games and love them as well as the culture and industry. I also have a video background. My "attribute" size has nothing to do with it. If it did, they'd dictate my wardrobe, not me wearing what I want. Everything you see me wear on the show is from my personal wardrobe. Interestingly enough I DID have a job offer from G4 once to host a video game show - but I had to wear a bikini. Funny enough, I turned that job down. If you think the ONLY reason I was hired was for my "attributes", your incorrect and I highly suggest you correct your thinking ASAP.

And as another aside - Ryan heard my tirade in the office and was in my office when I initially decided to pull the game and he supported my decision if I was uncomfortable with the game or felt strongly about not having it on the show. No one in this office would ever be made to do something they feel uncomfortable with.



Post by daniel_beck_90 (2,289 posts) See mini bio

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the links do not work for me either


Post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) See mini bio

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The links work fine but I have pasted her post in the OP for more ease.



Post by Endogene (3,857 posts) See mini bio

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Ehhh what exactly is going on there?


Post by daniel_beck_90 (2,289 posts) See mini bio

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Wow Endogene said:
"Ehhh what exactly is going on there?"
I 'd like to know too  :D


Post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) See mini bio

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Her post is in the OP.


Post by BoG (2,790 posts) See mini bio
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You know, I don't disagree. I don't necessarily think this is feminism, either, it is simply speaking out against the objectification of women. Sure, that may be an aspect of feminism, but I'd say it is a goal we should strive for.  It is historic fact that men act as if they are superior to women, and still do to this day. Sure, we may live in a progressive society, but sexism still exists. I think that, perhaps, ridding of imagery such as this could do a great deal for society as a whole. Women being portrayed as sex objects is detrimental in many ways, and effects both men and women. It's called reciprcal determinism - The environment we live in effects us and the people around us, which effects what we think of ourselves, which effects the people we associate, which effects how they treat us... that's a poor description, but essentially, its a circular description of what shapes us. Men and women alike see women portrayed as sex objects, resulting in men treating women like sex objects, and sometimes women acting like sex objects.
I'm not sympathetic to the entire feminist cause, not at all. I'm of the mindset that men and women are vastly different from the moment their sex is decided in the womb, and that is scientific fact. However, this doesn't mean we are not equal. Media portrayals only fuel the fire, a fire we need to put out.


Post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) See mini bio

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BoG said:
"You know, I don't disagree. I don't necessarily think this is feminism, either, it is simply speaking out against the objectification of women. Sure, that may be an aspect of feminism, but I'd say it is a goal we should strive for.  It is historic fact that men act as if they are superior to women, and still do to this day. Sure, we may live in a progressive society, but sexism still exists. I think that, perhaps, ridding of imagery such as this could do a great deal for society as a whole. Women being portrayed as sex objects is detrimental in many ways, and effects both men and women. It's called reciprcal determinism - The environment we live in effects us and the people around us, which effects what we think of ourselves, which effects the people we associate, which effects how they treat us... that's a poor description, but essentially, its a circular description of what shapes us. Men and women alike see women portrayed as sex objects, resulting in men treating women like sex objects, and sometimes women acting like sex objects.
I'm not sympathetic to the entire feminist cause, not at all. I'm of the mindset that men and women are vastly different from the moment their sex is decided in the womb, and that is scientific fact. However, this doesn't mean we are not equal. Media portrayals only fuel the fire, a fire we need to put out.
"

Yes I know all that and agree BoG, but what of her using her role on OTS to do this... and even contemplating not even giving the game air time.



Post by Endogene (3,857 posts) See mini bio

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Is here job not to be a reporter and show what there is to be shown? Not show what she wants to show?


Post by ryanwho (1,570 posts) See mini bio

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How about this, she doesn't play the bikini zombie game made for me and I won't play the bitching about free market at work game made for her.


Post by brukaoru (3,298 posts) See mini bio
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Some men only think of women as sex objects and it is ruining all forms of entertainment, I'm going to go seclude myself and go live in a cave!  /sarcasm

Does she get this upset over every game with scantily clad women? If so, she has a lot of anger issues. Funny, if this game were males being scantily clad, she wouldn't be upset, would she?

**Spoilers**: Sex sells, for both genders, get over it.  

Also, I wouldn't necessarily say more gamers are male, but I think it is a fact that more people that work in the gaming industry out number female workers, it makes sense that many games appeal toward males. Perhaps that's another reason I get upset about these "game for girls" campaign bullcrap. Female gamers enjoy the same type of games males do, but the industry thinks they need to create a different category to appeal to females, and that's just an idiotic notion. However, a game like this wouldn't necessarily appeal to many females, so just put some guys in swimming trunks slaying zombies and everything will be balanced. :P

@BoG: All good points, but I will say that I am fairly certain a good number of females see men as sex objects as well, you just never hear about it. Part of the reason, I think,  is because they tend to be hypocrites, they'll get angry about females being portrayed that way, but a male being portrayed in the same manner is no problem. Not always the case, of course.

Also, hi Linky! :P


Post by GP1Mil (64 posts) See mini bio

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I think she is to uptight and needs to get laid lol


Post by Lemegeton (446 posts) See mini bio
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i generally dont support feminism , but for games like this i do agree with her somewhat. Games like this and DOA beach volleyball, Rumble Roses,  are pathetic wastes of space, and its games like this that stop our industry from getting respect from the mainstream. they give the impression that games are only played by hormone-fueled 15 year old boys and guys like me who are over 25 are weird for playing games. now i have no problem with these games being released as there is clearly a market for them, but agree that they dont deserve air time on a show like OTS


Post by Endogene (3,857 posts) See mini bio

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Lemegeton said:
"i generally dont support feminism , but for games like this i do agree with her somewhat. Games like this and DOA beach volleyball, Rumble Roses,  are pathetic wastes of space, and its games like this that stop our industry from getting respect from the mainstream. they give the impression that games are only played by hormone-fueled 15 year old boys and guys like me who are over 25 are weird for playing games. now i have no problem with these games being released as there is clearly a market for them, but agree that they dont deserve air time on a show like OTS
"
That franchise is pretty famous actually.


Post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) See mini bio

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Endogene said:
"Is here job not to be a reporter and show what there is to be shown? Not show what she wants to show?"


She's a Producer at Gamespot and also a host of OTS, she's relatively new and seems oblivious to how many gamers on GS would feel about this if they knew.  No DoA game will be safe while she is at the helm lol.

There is something really not right here, Kristen used to be a promotions girl and we all know they use sex to sell frequently...it makes no sense at all, unless she has found God or something, lol




This is my reply to her
:


"WTF, are your serious!?, you nearly pulled it from the show because of this!

*[broken link, the following is based on the assumption it is Manga derived game]* (which I strongly think it is)

 Kristin, my guess is the game is based on a Manga/Hentai series from Japan?. If I'm right, it's certainly not a
"sex sells" motivated decision with it's application in this game, but instead fundamental to the iconic style of the characters. Those which happen to appeal to a core mature fanbase no doubt... Batgirl would fail to be Batgirl without her suit, the exact same applies here with many of these characters, characters of the like are seen everywhere, absolutely everywhere in Japan.

The source material for this game is a Manga I believe, a genre which has graphic sex, extreme violence and degradation of women in abundance. They even have depictions of sadist acts, fetishes, whips and chains and all that lalala. This on the other hand I imagine is far more tame in comparison. I have seen characters in NON mature videogames that wear attire that is far more contentious than a Bikini in my eyes. At least the sex appeal of a female character in a Bikini is considered natural to most. On the flip-side the sexualising of  young schoolgirls in uniform in Japanese games, music, cinema is everywhere. Their society has no problem with this, Japan has few hangs up about sexualising women in such a way, and also from a young age. They have a culture that has been doing so since their Edo period, and in far far worser ways...which I will not go into lol.

They will never change solely because of western ideology on the portrayal of women in modern society. Videogames are a cultural reflect medium, and we need to respect the fact, we need to respect the fact they represent a perspective that may be different to our own. I am all for feminism, and equal rights and more balance, but attempting to take on a small fry developer of a lame game that very few will know about seems a bit much. If we start asking Japanese developers to regionalise their games, so that such content is removed, nobody would play these games in the west!, that is the fact of the matter. Do you honestly think DOA (Dead or Alive) would have sold the millions worldwide it did if the characters were dressed in one piece bathing suits?, no, gamers demand midriffs and bouncy bits!, but most importantly they demand games original to their source material, as it may well be in this case.

 I imagine when I see the game I will probably laugh, not because it's in any way shocking. The juxtapose of a woman, who normally in a Bikini would feel prone, is instead taking on Zombies in a badd ass fashion is cool. All mature video game characters are sexualized to some degree, the recent Bayonetta Trailer (X) is a prime example of how successful it can be within this industry as it is in so many others. This stuff sells, and to both men and women gamers, to those that have no problem with it unlike yourself of course. I have a female friend on another site that cannot wait to play Bayonetta, she cares little about the overtly sexualized female character who wears skimpy S&M gear, in fact she seems loves her and she is no Lesbian.

I must say I am very surprised at this attempt at censorship, I wonder what the views of your colleagues are on this matter?, what does Ryan think?:





Post by Lemegeton (446 posts) See mini bio
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which one ?


Post by AuthenticM (418 posts) See mini bio
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Should the game's main characters had been two men sporting shorts-only or Calvin Klein underwear, nobody would have said a fucking thing. But no, it's women in bikinis, that's sexist!


Post by Lemegeton (446 posts) See mini bio
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AuthenticM said:
"Should the game's main characters had been two men sporting shorts-only or Calvin Klein underwear, nobody would have said a fucking thing. 
umm not true , all us guys would be calling the game gay,...... repeatedly. lol :-)



Post by zitosilva (1,000 posts) See mini bio
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I don't if this exist in english, but in portuguese we make a difference between feminism and what could be called femism.

Feminism is what we all know about, equal rights to men and women, both genders be treated the same. And of course most of us totally support this; I don't think that nowadays anyone (with a mind) questions the equalaty of men and women.

But then there is femism, which I think could relate to this. It's, for instance, the case when someone criticized my mother because she quitted her job when her sons were born (myself included) and decided not to go back again. Even though this was HER choice, and hers alone she sometimes gets criticized by this. THis is an example of femisn, which is something in the ways of some women thinking it would be better if they'd take the place of men, just inverting the scale.

I think this censorship is an example of this. First, there a tons of other games she could've had a problem with that would make more sense... Why is Ivy so naked even though she is fighting? Why do the girls in DOA use bikinis? Why are almost all women in videogames depicted with overly large breasts that defy gravity? Why are there so few games with women protagonists? Why did Dante never got naked but Bayonetta's special make her be completely nude? These here would all be valid points. But the Bikini Zombie Slayer? Come one, that game is supposed to be a joke! It is just to make it as cool as possible; hell, you could change the protagonist by a pirate that is constantly on flames and you'd have the same result. It's cool, it's supposed to make you laugh.

But try to cancel the whole appearence of the game just because she disagrees with something? That's what dictators do, she does not have the right to do such a thing. What she could've done, and this would've made more sense, is after the show comment on her blog or maybe in an article how she feels about this kind of thing and then incite conversations, discussions. Not try to erase the whole thing as if it never existed.


Post by M1 (41 posts) See mini bio
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What about the poor zombies? They have been attacked for years in video games and on film. Is it not time someone stood up and defended them?


Post by Lemegeton (446 posts) See mini bio
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zitosilva said:
But try to cancel the whole appearence of the game just because she disagrees with something? That's what dictators do, she does not have the right to do such a thing. What she could've done, and this would've made more sense, is after the show comment on her blog or maybe in an article how she feels about this kind of thing and then incite conversations, discussions. Not try to erase the whole thing as if it never existed."
i agree on this point. i can understand her objections to the game and others like it, but i am always totally against censorship.


Post by Otacon (1,400 posts) See mini bio
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She should be careful, posts that are that opinionated and rallying could get you banned from GS!


Post by MattBodega (427 posts) See mini bio
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Moderator

Isn't this the game where the ladies in bikini's kill zombies that bleed forever? Sex be damned, that game is hysterical!
Truthfully! That game is a prime example of the differences between the Japanese and American markets. It's bizare and sexist, sure, but it's one of the great "Lost in Translation products".


This post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) was deleted by the mods

Post by BoG (2,790 posts) See mini bio
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Well then, it appears we have a hypocrite.


Post by Xymox (217 posts) See mini bio
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... And if this game was released in the 1900s people would go "Girls killing zombies? What blasphemy is this?! That's a mans job! A womans place is in the kitchen.".


Post by brukaoru (3,298 posts) See mini bio
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Kristen, before she got her GameSpot gig.
Kristen, before she got her GameSpot gig.


You've got to be kidding me. What a hypocrite, I want to punch her in the face.


Post by Linkyshinks (6,806 posts) See mini bio

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BoG said:
"Well then, it appears we have a hypocrite."


Yes it would seem so.....I really do not know what to say after seeing that pic, it begs belief.






Post by Cube (1,668 posts) See mini bio
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Lemegeton said:
"AuthenticM said:
"Should the game's main characters had been two men sporting shorts-only or Calvin Klein underwear, nobody would have said a fucking thing. 
umm not true , all us guys would be calling the game gay,...... repeatedly. lol :-)

"
But not sexist.


Double standards.