Homosexuality in Kids shows..

I don't know why the hell this came up in my head but I was trying to think of a case where homosexuality was handled or even mentioned in a kids show, and I couldn't. Considering that the characters do tend to deal with relationships and such, it does seem slightly odd the more I look into it. On the one hand I can see how it might confuse a person if they are used to seeing guys and girls and then see guys and guys (though I doubt it would turn everyone gay), though also I can't help shaking the feelings it's saying "Well kids, here's the NORMAL way of doing things" ...

At the end of the day, I'm not homosexual and I also aren't homophobic so these things literally make no difference to me. Just thought it's an interesting ethical discussion point.

Soo discuss.

Bert and Ernie.

Ahem.

Well I think there are a lot more cases where parents get all up in arms about supposed homosexual themes and situations in kids shows or cartoons. For some reason Sponge Bob comes to mind. But legitimate instances are hard to come by.

@TheHBK: I was going to mention spongebob too, especially the clam raising episode

Oh man, this thread is going to be a fucking minefield.

To give the most PC answer I can and thus avoid the fucking wrath of the entire progressive movement, I'll just say that I don't think having overt sexual tones and themes is appropriate for any children's show. Now when you say children's show I'm assuming you mean shit like Sesame Street or cartoons like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. You know, programming for an audience of 0-10. Maybe that makes me some kind of prude but I know for a fact I don't want my nine year old sister knowing about men putting their bell ends in women, much less men putting their bell ends in other men just yet.

I can't really think of any overtly heterosexual characters in kids shows either. Some shows feature parents who are usually minor characters, but other than that, characters in kids shows kinda just are, without being sexualized one way or another. I'm kinda out of the loop with kids shows though.

@Oldirtybearon: regardless, there are still episodes about characters being attracted to other characters, though sex never enters the equation (obviously).

I mean I was honestly not just sticking to kids in general but preteen and teen programming and I couldn't think of anything THERE either that wasn't japanese (Sailor Moon had two of the characters in a relationship and that manga/anime was marketed to 10-17 year old girls)

When is there any sexuality in kids shows?

Also keep in mind that most kids are in heterosexual families because, you know, procreation. Heterosexual relationships are innocuous. They're easily forgotten and ignored. On the other hand, openly homosexual relationships are sure to raise questions that kids may not be mature enough to ask and parents may not be fully prepared to answer.

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon: regardless, there are still episodes about characters being attracted to other characters, though sex never enters the equation (obviously).

I mean I was honestly not just sticking to kids in general but preteen and teen programming and I couldn't think of anything THERE either that wasn't japanese (Sailor Moon had two of the characters in a relationship and that manga/anime was marketed to 10-17 year old girls)

Yeah, now that I think about it, I guess shows targeted at pre-teens have a little more to do with relationships and attraction. Can't think of any specific examples of homosexual relations, though for some reason I thought I saw an something where a (guest?) character had two moms or dads.

@StarvingGamer said:

When is there any sexuality in kids shows?

Also keep in mind that most kids are in heterosexual families because, you know, procreation. Heterosexual relationships are innocuous. They're easily forgotten and ignored. On the other hand, openly homosexual relationships are sure to raise questions that kids may not be mature enough to ask and parents may not be fully prepared to answer.

that's kinda iffy... if the kid is too young to fully understand, then telling him doesn't really mean anything anyway, and if they are old enough then great (I think the better word would be mature, honestly, because a kid may be mature enough at 5 whilst another might not be mature enough at 10). and the parents not being prepared to answer is dumb, because kids already ask questions they shouldn't know the answer to anyway (how is babby formed being the big one)

I mean I agree that anything approaching sexuality shouldnt really be touched on for under 10s (I don't see anything wrong with a character having two moms/dads in that situation necessarily, like the situation was in the spongebob episode rock-a-bye bivalve), but I see no reason for the programming of the 10-17 bracket to be so homo free, for lack of a better term.

@Oldirtybearon said:

Oh man, this thread is going to be a fucking minefield.

To give the most PC answer I can and thus avoid the fucking wrath of the entire progressive movement, I'll just say that I don't think having overt sexual tones and themes is appropriate for any children's show. Now when you say children's show I'm assuming you mean shit like Sesame Street or cartoons like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. You know, programming for an audience of 0-10. Maybe that makes me some kind of prude but I know for a fact I don't want my nine year old sister knowing about men putting their bell ends in women, much less men putting their bell ends in other men just yet.

Hehehe.

It's briefly handled in Paranorman.

@Animasta said:

@StarvingGamer said:

When is there any sexuality in kids shows?

Also keep in mind that most kids are in heterosexual families because, you know, procreation. Heterosexual relationships are innocuous. They're easily forgotten and ignored. On the other hand, openly homosexual relationships are sure to raise questions that kids may not be mature enough to ask and parents may not be fully prepared to answer.

that's kinda iffy... if the kid is too young to fully understand, then telling him doesn't really mean anything anyway, and if they are old enough then great (I think the better word would be mature, honestly, because a kid may be mature enough at 5 whilst another might not be mature enough at 10). and the parents not being prepared to answer is dumb, because kids already ask questions they shouldn't know the answer to anyway (how is babby formed being the big one)

I mean I agree that anything approaching sexuality shouldnt really be touched on for under 10s (I don't see anything wrong with a character having two moms/dads in that situation necessarily, like the situation was in the spongebob episode rock-a-bye bivalve), but I see no reason for the programming of the 10-17 bracket to be so homo free, for lack of a better term.

I'm pretty sure I said "mature". :D

And you're right, parents not being prepared to answer is dumb, but it's also the truth. I'm not saying I have anything against portraying these sorts of relationships in kids' media, but I can see some reasonable rationalizations for why most popular networks don't want to rock the boat.

oh sure, that's where the problems come from in the first place (if I had to guess which would show one first, it'd be cartoon network because adult swim could leak out)

@TheFreepie: There was an episode of cow and chicken (I think) that dealt with lesbians and was, more or less, vehemently anti-gay propaganda.

One piece though not only for kids has a huge cast of transgender and a few possibly homosexual characters.

@StarvingGamer said:

When is there any sexuality in kids shows?

Also keep in mind that most kids are in heterosexual families because, you know, procreation. Heterosexual relationships are innocuous. They're easily forgotten and ignored. On the other hand, openly homosexual relationships are sure to raise questions that kids may not be mature enough to ask and parents may not be fully prepared to answer.

That's such an awkward thing to think about.

I'm of the position that homosexual relationships being depicted on children's tv show is way to complicated to bring up, but I am aware that gay people think that heterosexual relationships are just as problematic and that society is just comfortable with it.

I dunno. My take is just to let sleepy dogs lie, as non-progressive as that sounds.

After Elmo was found to have allegedly had homosexual relations with a minor... I'm not sure Sesame Street is really going to touch this one.

Though, they have had plenty of gay-friendly guests, and they don't seem adverse to it. If it's approached at all, it's just presented as something normal; which is probably one of the best messages that they could make. Still, outside of the occasional show that just happens to be on, I haven't really kept up with kids shows too much for a good number of years. I think many teenage-focused shows are more off-handedly referring to gay characters or gay parents, but I haven't really seen anything very overt as to seem mentionable.

God fucking forbid a kid has to know about two men, or two women loving each other. Let's keep it clean and stick with people throwing lasers at each other.

@GetEveryone said:

@TheFreepie: There was an episode of cow and chicken (I think) that dealt with lesbians and was, more or less, vehemently anti-gay propoganda.

oh god, just reading the description on wikipedia sounds horrible.

now I have to see how bad it is

Kids aren't a huge part of my life as I don't have any so they're pretty much invisible to me but that being said I think it's important that kids are taught acceptance at a young age. I think it's important that they know that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.

@Animasta said:

@GetEveryone said:

@TheFreepie: There was an episode of cow and chicken (I think) that dealt with lesbians and was, more or less, vehemently anti-gay propoganda.

oh god, just reading the description on wikipedia sounds horrible.

now I have to see how bad it is

It's on youtube, it wasn't anti-homosexual propaganda but it is perhaps insensitive in its over the top stereotypical nature. Being crude and insensitive was the whole schtick of the show, which i never cared for.

Any adult who's watching blues clues is obviously doing it for the wrong reasons.

@Ley_Lines said:

@Animasta said:

@GetEveryone said:

@TheFreepie: There was an episode of cow and chicken (I think) that dealt with lesbians and was, more or less, vehemently anti-gay propoganda.

oh god, just reading the description on wikipedia sounds horrible.

now I have to see how bad it is

It's on youtube, it wasn't anti-homosexual propaganda but it is perhaps insensitive in its over the top stereotypical nature. Being crude and insensitive was the whole schtick of the show, which i never cared for.

just watching it reminded me how terrible that show was; this wasn't even teh worst episode no matter how insensitive it was

I don't really think any sexuality is a big deal in kids shows.

When it is its typically used in comedic fashion from my memory (AKA The Nurse from Animaniacs) but I think it would be weirder to see any kind of romantically based kids show, happy with them just maintaining the friendships style of kids shows.

Besides as some folks have said they are willing to look into close male friends as homosexual relationships like Bert an Ernie (though I think that's dumb).

@eroticfishcake: lol you got the "room mates" and friends that never leave each others side thing huh

I'm perplexed that this is even considered an issue in our culture. I challenge anyone to come up with a single good reason that consensual sex is in any way less acceptable of a topic for a child than ANY sort of violence.

I've seen homosexuality addressed in kids-shows with no fuss surrounding it at all, but I live in Europe so...

@Mallard said:

I'm perplexed that this is even considered an issue in our culture. I challenge anyone to come up with a single good reason that consensual sex is in any way less acceptable of a topic for a child than ANY sort of violence.

cartoon violence is a lot different than realistic or even semi realistic violence... and again, I think people are making two seperate arguments; children shouldn't see explicit sexuality of any form and children's programming shouldn't be free of open homosexuals

Would you care to elaborate on why children shouldn't see explicit sexuality, but smashing a coyote's face in with a goddamn hammer is A-OK?

Playschool had an episode where they showed a family that had two mums.

@Mallard said:

Would you care to elaborate on why children shouldn't see explicit sexuality, but smashing a coyote's face in with a goddamn hammer is A-OK?

I think both are less than cool to be shown to children (and also I don't know if you noticed but cartoon violence has been scaled way down since the old looney tunes days)

@Mallard said:

Would you care to elaborate on why children shouldn't see explicit sexuality, but smashing a coyote's face in with a goddamn hammer is A-OK?

One opens pandora's box and leads to conversations about sex and attraction and everything that goes with those topics (including homosexuality) for a child that, contrary to what you might think. is not mentally fit to have those kinds of discussions. To clarify further just in case you might misunderstand me: a regular nine year old is not going to be mentally equipped with the context or the comprehension to understand a complicated and messy topic like sex. That's why those talks are reserved for when the child is older. You know, like the weird period when they're 12-13 and undergoing a biological change into adulthood.

Despite your attempt to frame mild cartoon violence as somehow repugnant or disturbing, watching Wile E. Coyote blow himself up with a rocket (which results in him getting covered and soot and his fur getting frazzled, and not being blown into a million bloody fucking chunks) is a far less complicated conversation to have with a child. You know, because it's a cartoon.

@Oldirtybearon: @Oldirtybearon said:

@Mallard said:

Would you care to elaborate on why children shouldn't see explicit sexuality, but smashing a coyote's face in with a goddamn hammer is A-OK?

One opens pandora's box and leads to conversations about sex and attraction and everything that goes with those topics (including homosexuality) for a child that

see, this is the part I disagree with; homosexuality can be discussed without discussing sex.

'why does my friend have two moms/dads'

'because they love each other like your mom and dad do'

'oh'

Plenty of anime shows have them and they can be seen by kids. Does that count?

I'm not trying to frame cartoon violence as repugnant or disgusting, I'm just confused as to why people try to frame sex as somehow repugnant or disgusting. While a child may be unable to fully grasp the concept of sex, keeping them completely ignorant of the topic is simply laziness of the parent who themselves are not mentally fit to have mature discussion with a child.

Please, explain to me the true ethical downside of keeping a child informed about sex? I am at a loss for words.

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon: @Oldirtybearon said:

@Mallard said:

Would you care to elaborate on why children shouldn't see explicit sexuality, but smashing a coyote's face in with a goddamn hammer is A-OK?

One opens pandora's box and leads to conversations about sex and attraction and everything that goes with those topics (including homosexuality) for a child that

see, this is the part I disagree with; homosexuality can be discussed without discussing sex.

'why does my friend have two moms/dads'

'because they love each other like your mom and dad do'

'oh'

Except when the child asks why Susie's family is different and why they don't have two dads?

You can try to avoid that part of the discussion all you want, but sooner or later it will always lead to "Susie has two dads because those dudes like banging other dudes." That in and of itself isn't the issue of course, the problem comes when you then have to explain what "Banging" means and then you're spending the next eight hours explaining human sexuality to a prepubescent child. It's not a fun time, so most parents/guardians tend to avoid it until the child has the mental ability to comprehend it. At least the basics, in any event.

@Mallard said:

I'm not trying to frame cartoon violence as repugnant or disgusting, I'm just confused as to why people try to frame sex as somehow repugnant or disgusting. While a child may be unable to fully grasp the concept of sex, keeping them completely ignorant of the topic is simply laziness of the parent who themselves are not mentally fit to have mature discussion with a child.

Please, explain to me the true ethical downside of keeping a child informed about sex? I am at a loss for words.

cartoon violence is way more removed from actual violence than whatever you're implying is (perhaps if you would give an example though? like what would be appropriate for that age group)

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon: @Oldirtybearon said:

@Mallard said:

Would you care to elaborate on why children shouldn't see explicit sexuality, but smashing a coyote's face in with a goddamn hammer is A-OK?

One opens pandora's box and leads to conversations about sex and attraction and everything that goes with those topics (including homosexuality) for a child that

see, this is the part I disagree with; homosexuality can be discussed without discussing sex.

'why does my friend have two moms/dads'

'because they love each other like your mom and dad do'

'oh'

ok, but what if you don't have parents that love eachother? :o

@Oldirtybearon: but then your ultra inquisitive hypothetical kid would be asking about that shit anyway? I don't see why introducing that specific variable is somehow going to make that kid more or less likely to want to know the specifics of it.

@BeachThunder: a loving parental relationship is like santa in that way

Violence, in any form, is the manifestation of fear, hatred, dominance, or any number of ugly human features. Consensual sex is shared experience based on mutual and natural urges.

Explain to me how the latter is less appropriate for a child than the former.

@Mallard: sex is infinitely more complicated to grasp than violence

How, specifically?

@Mallard said:

How, specifically?

can you explain sex in a single sentence? I can explain violence in a single sentence

"violence is bad and you shouldn't do it"

I still want you to say what kind of 'thing' you would want in a kid's show. You're tying me up in this stupid violence v. sex debate (I have already said I would rather them have neither, BY THE WAY).

@Animasta said:

@StarvingGamer said:

When is there any sexuality in kids shows?

Also keep in mind that most kids are in heterosexual families because, you know, procreation. Heterosexual relationships are innocuous. They're easily forgotten and ignored. On the other hand, openly homosexual relationships are sure to raise questions that kids may not be mature enough to ask and parents may not be fully prepared to answer.

that's kinda iffy... if the kid is too young to fully understand, then telling him doesn't really mean anything anyway, and if they are old enough then great (I think the better word would be mature, honestly, because a kid may be mature enough at 5 whilst another might not be mature enough at 10). and the parents not being prepared to answer is dumb, because kids already ask questions they shouldn't know the answer to anyway (how is babby formed being the big one)

I mean I agree that anything approaching sexuality shouldnt really be touched on for under 10s (I don't see anything wrong with a character having two moms/dads in that situation necessarily, like the situation was in the spongebob episode rock-a-bye bivalve), but I see no reason for the programming of the 10-17 bracket to be so homo free, for lack of a better term.

Explaining to a child how to make a baby is perfectly acceptable, but things get into a grey zone when you start talking about orgasmic pleasure. This is how brainwashed I am by western society that I believe it weird to explain sexual pleasure to children.. why would that be weird really? because WE think it's taboo? Hopefully the next generation of parents will not be as brainwashed as us.

@floodiastus: kids can understand babies, they can't understand about orgasms? it's like if I started describing some game to you by comparing it to a game you haven't played and know nothing about.

@Animasta "Sex is an intimate physical activity shared between multiple people" is a way better single sentence explanation than your's on violence.

I'm not debating violence shouldn't be a topic in children's shows, I'm merely pointing how backwards it is to consider that even cartoon violence is somehow more appropriate for children to be exposed to than a physical activity based on affection.

@Animasta: It's not just that specific variable is where I think our wires are getting crossed. I only brought up homosexuality in the first place because that's the nature of the topic. There are plenty of other variables or "triggers" for that conversation all around media. Someone earlier in the thread brought up Animaniacs and the sexy nurse. That's an explicit reference to sexuality that I'd rather my sister didn't see.

At some point, though, all of this comes down to parenting and doing what you think is appropriate for the child in your care. This shit isn't (to my endless frustration) an exact science, and trying to navigate the world with a child so that said child only encounters shit they can comprehend is nigh impossible. Shit will fall through the cracks most definitely, but to stave off those particular conversations until the child can understand isn't, I don't think, a bad thing. But who knows? I'm doing what most parents/guardians do - winging it.

As for my sister, I don't think media that explicitly or suggestively references sex is appropriate. She's nine. We'll have that talk when she's a couple years older and she's capable of understanding things on a more fundamental level.

@Mallard: I'm not interested in having this argument with you, I want you to tell me what you think an appropriate introduction of sex would be to a children program for under 10s (and stop dodging)