@onemanarmyy: nobody answered your question but I will: this stuff doesn't normally happen so fast. Trump has left a lot of positions unfilled in the executive branch and is not running his orders by the White House legal counsel or prepping federal agencies for how to handle his changes.
That's why this ban is causing such chaos. Trump's administration said "there's a ban" and didn't check to see if it was legal, plus they didn't tell anyone how to enforce it or what the rules are. It was dropped into the laps of the TSA and CBP on Friday, sowing confusion. That's why everything is happening so fast, and is why the ACLU and NILC are suing the US government.
That explains why Canada border control didn't know what to do up until an hour ago. The good news seems to be that people with dual Canadian and Syrian citizenship are allowed to read enter the US. But originally we thought they wouldn't be allowed in.
@quid_pro_bono: Thank you! So he's essentially starting in the middle of a 10-step plan, because the first points haven't been decided yet. You would think that this only delays the whole process by the chaos that is being created.
To any families disrupted or endangered by this action: you have my most heartfelt sympathies. I'm heading home now to donate to the ACLU and I hope others will do the same.
@spaceinsomniac: The San Bernandino shooting in 2015 that killed 14 people was perpetrated by a man born in Chicago and a woman born in Pakistan (not on the ban list). The Orlando shooting that killed 50 people was a man born in New York. The Boston Marathon bombers were from Kyrgyzstan (not on the list) and Russia (definitely not on the list). There were 19 hijackers on 9/11. 15 came from Saudia Arabia, 2 from UAE, 1 from Lebanon and 1 from Egypt. None of those countries are on the list.
It's pure Islamophobia, there's no other excuse for it. Add all that to the fact that we are currently bombing 5 out of the 7 countries on the list. These people are fleeing war that we created. It's disgraceful.
Thanks for the info. That still leaves the other question, though. If none of the attacks came from the countries the Obama administration listed, then why did the Obama administration put those countries on a terrorist prevention list?
It makes for more interesting reading than the "The Statue of Liberty is crying tonight!!" or posting photos of upside down Liberty.
Reading this with the same level of suspicion that I seem to have to give to all news lately, I'm happy to read that a highly conservative website posted the following:
However, there are reports that the ban is being applied even to green-card holders. This is madness. The plain language of the order doesn’t apply to legal permanent residents of the U.S., and green-card holders have been through round after round of vetting and security checks. The administration should intervene, immediately, to stop misapplication. If, however, the Trump administration continues to apply the order to legal permanent residents, it should indeed be condemned.
Now to wait and see if the administration does intervene in situations involving green cards.
@spaceinsomniac: The administration have every right to impose an immigration ban but they are currently not organized enough to execute these very sensitive orders.
The language on the EO should have been triple checked, and from what i'm hearing it was not. hopefully someone is fired for this.
@sysyphus: I'm not absolving Obama of any blame because you're right, his administration did create the list that Trump based this policy on but a lot of the other stuff you said simply isn't true.
No one has been killed on American soil by terrorist attacks perpetrated any of the seven countries included in this ban. And Trump said himself that "persecuted Christian refugees" would be exempt from the ban on a case to case basis so he can say it's not a "Muslim ban" all he wants, it still bans Muslims. Also, there's no logical reason that countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE, who directly fund terrorists, would be excluded from the ban other than business interests. Now, you may be right that it's not specially Trump's business interests that caused but it's certainly America's business interests since we regularly sell these countries billions of dollars worth of weapons.
And you didn't mention this in your post but there is absolutely no excuse to detain people with valid green cards and visas like was done around the country. These people already went through the vetting process to earn their papers, there is absolutely nothing constitutional about forcing these people to again prove that they should be allowed to enter the country. That's an absolute disgrace.
This makes me curious, which countries did most of the US terrorist attacks come from, anyhow? And if none of the attacks came from the countries the Obama administration listed, then why did they put those countries on the list?
Either way, the green card thing seems like it was way overkill, here. I certainly agree with you there.
The vast, overwhelming majority of Americans that are killed, are killed by fellow Americans (often family and friends). But that reality is not something that scares people into voting for you. Instead it's all about that terrorist bogey man.
Here is something that is a little odd to me. There are many, many people who are not American and not living in the United States, that are campaigning against these measures Trump has taken. Loudly, with lots of expletives. People have marched against Trump in Canada, London and many other cities across the glove.
But if you are going to try and influence another country's politics and regimes, why on earth are people forgetting about countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran? There are countries a billion times worse than America pre-Trump or (so far) post-Trump. It seems like if Trump says anything remotely sexist (or definitely sexist) there's a huge uproar online yet the domestic abuse and pet level rights of women in Saudi Arabia are things people don't give a fuck about.
And why the fuck was there people in the women's marches who were FOR Islam (specifically Sharia Law)?????????????
I should stop and go back to my bubble because this cesspool the Internet and modern politics has created makes my head spin.
@wynnduffy: Well America likes to call themself "the leaders of the free world" and that doesnt exactly ring well when you have to compare the country to Saudi Arabia to make a point. America is also a huge supporter of said country which doesnt exactly help.
@wynnduffy: Well America likes to call themself "the leaders of the free world" and that doesnt exactly ring well when you have to compare the country to Saudi Arabia to make a point. America is also a huge supporter of said country which doesnt exactly help.
I didn't have to use Saudi Arabia as an example, I just singled out that country because I think the regime is disgusting.
Britain and The US' marriage to Saudi Arabia continues to piss me off.
@wynnduffy: Well the disgusting regime is put in place and founded by US military and money.
Anyways no matter if you compared to Saudi or not i think the selfproclaimed greatest democracy in the history of the world should be held to the highest standards and nothing else.
Regardless of where you stand on the issue of the immigration ban, I think we can all share sympathy for the innocent individuals who have negatively been affected by this.
Here is something that is a little odd to me. There are many, many people who are not American and not living in the United States, that are campaigning against these measures Trump has taken. Loudly, with lots of expletives. People have marched against Trump in Canada, London and many other cities across the glove.
But if you are going to try and influence another country's politics and regimes, why on earth are people forgetting about countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran? There are countries a billion times worse than America pre-Trump or (so far) post-Trump. It seems like if Trump says anything remotely sexist (or definitely sexist) there's a huge uproar online yet the domestic abuse and pet level rights of women in Saudi Arabia are things people don't give a fuck about.
And why the fuck was there people in the women's marches who were FOR Islam (specifically Sharia Law)?????????????
I should stop and go back to my bubble because this cesspool the Internet and modern politics has created makes my head spin.
Wait... are you actually setting standards based on the worst countries in the world for the US to bide by? I guess you should ban gay marriage again, since that is illegal is so many other countries too. Why on earth would you set your standards based on the lowest of low? Let me tell you, I'm over here in a real free country, not a self-proclaimed one, and it is because we set the standards ourselves without looking at the other guy. Especially the worst guy.
If you consider that the US is supposed to be a free country, the things Trump is trying to do most definitely deserve criticism. The US is trying to take the first steps back to a non-democratic country with this. You should be thankful there are people protesting and willing to fight back against that.
@zevvion: No I'm saying I do not understand people outside of the U.S heavily protesting Trump when there is far worse than anything he has done going on around the world, sometimes in their own countries. I would rather see the House of Saudi under worldwide scrutiny than seeing yet another useless Twitter hashtag campaign because Trump said something questionable (and no this isn't me dismissing the recent immigration change, just an example from the past).
Londoners protesting Trump, how about focusing on the god awful Snooper act that recently passed? It's ridiculous.
@zevvion: No I'm saying I do not understand people outside of the U.S heavily protesting Trump when there is far worse than anything he has done going on around the world, sometimes in their own countries. I would rather see the House of Saudi under worldwide scrutiny than seeing yet another useless Twitter hashtag campaign because Trump said something questionable (and no this isn't me dismissing the recent immigration change, just an example from the past).
What fictitious world do you live in where we get an ultimatum choice between fixing Trump's nonsense from coming to pass or fixing Saudi? It's 100% okay to want to fix Saudi andprevent Trump from plummeting a democratic nation into the abyss; that's still conveniently ignoring the fact that it's not as simple as 'fixing Saudi' to begin with too.
I have gone to Africa to help people in poverty. I often to to France to friends. It's totally cool if you think borders should divide what people care about, but some people just care about people in general. It does concern me that Trump is your president even though I don't live in the US. When you are taking steps to remove yourself from democracy and freedom, people need to act. That is what those marches were for. Your life is not more important because you were born inside of human constructed borders. Sure, by all means screen immigrants to death to make sure everything is OK, but blatantly banning anyone from entering your country that is from a certain place is not something a free country does and is not something a democratic country does.
And you don't. A US judge already overturned the order. And that is something you should be thankful for. When a maniac tries to prevent freedom, people step in and prevent those blocks from being placed. Unfortunately, your president has a decent amount of power so we'll have to see if he can eventually brute force his way.
@zevvion: No I'm saying I do not understand people outside of the U.S heavily protesting Trump when there is far worse than anything he has done going on around the world, sometimes in their own countries. I would rather see the House of Saudi under worldwide scrutiny than seeing yet another useless Twitter hashtag campaign because Trump said something questionable (and no this isn't me dismissing the recent immigration change, just an example from the past).
What fictitious world do you live in where we get an ultimatum choice between fixing Trump's nonsense from coming to pass or fixing Saudi? It's 100% okay to want to fix Saudi andprevent Trump from plummeting a democratic nation into the abyss; that's still conveniently ignoring the fact that it's not as simple as 'fixing Saudi' to begin with too.
Well, it basically is one or the other as the overwhelming majority of the people blasting Trump (from what I've seen, which is more than I wish I had) aren't giving a fuck about what the situation in the Middle East is. Hell, like I said even some of the women's march protesters were for Islam and Sharia Law, which is fucking baffling.
Anyway you are kind of twisting my words, I'm not saying what should or shouldn't happen, I'm mostly griping about slacktivists. That was the entire point of my post.
I don't really want to argue and I don't want to be on the defence about things I didn't actually say, so I am happily leaving this alone now.
@wynnduffy Fair enough. But the steps that need to be taken to fix Saudi are practically endless. It's near impossible to do something about it. The same cannot be said for the US right now.
It seems that the judge was able to block the part of the president's action that would impact immigrants who arrived in the US as the ban was implemented. These immigrants are still not allowed in the US, but at least they are not being deported on arrival. The rest of the ban is still in effect.
Londoners protesting Trump, how about focusing on the god awful Snooper act that recently passed? It's ridiculous.
There have been petitions but as i've said earlier, protesting would only do more harm than good, even if it does gain more publicity it's the wrong way to go about things. You cant preach civil discourse and act like a mob and expect to be taken seriously.
I think the reason other countries feel the need to critque the way the US & UK behave is because we/you can actually respond to it. English is a more worldwide language. (obviously)
It seems that the judge was able to block the part of the president's action that would impact immigrants who arrived in the US as the ban was implemented. These immigrants are still not allowed in the US, but at least they are not being deported on arrival. The rest of the ban is still in effect.
The order was already overturned by a judge, is what I read in several places.
Indeed, but at least nobody is stuck or detained for the time being. By the way things are turning out, it seems most people understand this to be a non-democratic, freedom-imposing and most likely illegal order. I feel fairly confident that this entire order will be overruled and deemed just that, in time.
@zevvion: Its not hard to fix the Saudi situation. If US require their oil suppliers to follow UN civil rights it would be a huge step. But apperently the situation in Arabic countries is acceptable to activly support for US citizens as long as the gas price doesnt go up by 40cents.
@rethla: Yes. So it is hard. Do you really think if it was that easy without major consequences the US wouldn't have done it by now? That stuff is more complicated than people want to believe. Which is honestly more or less the entire Trump-story. 'Just seal all the borders and no one can get in and we'll be safe!' - Yeah... no.
Am I missing a story where Trump shot and confined a woman to a wheelchair?
Give him a week, man can't be everywhere at once.
@Topic: I feel weird calling something "unamerican" as a german ... but from what I understand the core values of the US to be, this seems counterproductive. I am sure this won't stand for long.
And please do your research before repeating falsehoods about Linda Sarsour, who you disgustingly implied was for the oppression of women through so-called "Sharia Law". That was never the case, as evidenced by Snopes. She just used Sharia in a (valid) way to refer to how many Muslims live, such as avoiding pork and alcohol. As someone with both Muslim and Jewish relatives, it's not really that different from keeping kosher.
Anyway, I've indulged your concern trolling long enough. Please go on that because other countries ban transgender people that America can simply shut off its ideals. I'm sure you've really though through that line of reasoning.
Just finished rewatching Band of Brothers, and man, while that series shows the horrors of a past war, it is also frighteningly close to the future we have in front of us if we keep going down this road. I don't think people understand just how similar those situations were. It's frightening to read about jewish people who are shocked and disturbed about how that very same rhetoric that put them in camps is being applied all over the world. The future is here, and it is dark.
It lifts the spirit to see people take an active interest in this decision and generally resolve to be more involved and aware of what is happening politically in the US right now. If the only good things to come out of a Trump presidency is (a) we see a return to serious, accredited journalism over rabid, unverified blogs and (b) a public that gets interested in following and informing themselves about what is happening in politics then I would count the country better for it.
I work at the local news station and get to see most of this stuff first hand. I've lost count on how many videos I've cut of protesters protesting Trump. I actually got an email from someone saying that we never paint Trump in a positive light and that we're biased etc. The dude doesn't have a positive light! I really hope these people can be reunited with their families and hope none of this gets any worse. I miss Obama.
The thing I find, if not most horrible, at least most telling about all this is how thoughtlessly it seems to have been rushed through, consequences-be-damned. That seems inexcusable even if you've fully bought in to Trump's (horrifying and ridiculous) position.
Bending over backwards to see things from what's allegedly his point of view - even if you thought that the US was at grave risk from terrorist attacks, and even if you thought that these attacks were all being comitted by refugees(!), and even if you thought the situation was so imminently dangerous that the only solution was to totally suspend the entire refugee programme(!!) for a while so you can work out what to actually do, and *even* if you thought the threat was so great that everyone(!!!) from a random smattering of countries should be banned from travel to be "on the safe side" - why *on earth* would you have it all take place instantly? From what I gather, it's not much of an exaggeration to say that people mid-air while he signed the damn thing were detained on arrival. That makes no sense at all! Surely anyone with the slightest shred of thoughtfulness would have implemented these restrictions gradually and with at least a little forewarning.
The way this was handled proves that Donald Trump either doesn't think, doesn't care, or quite possibly both.
The fact that the British prime minister initally refused to condemn this - and when she finally did, did so only in the weakest possible terms - makes me sick.
@immortal_guy: Well of all the things thats said about trump i think he made it pretty clear all the time he was gonna do this and he was gonna do this as fast as possible. People just didnt belive him which is another thing.
Just finished rewatching Band of Brothers, and man, while that series shows the horrors of a past war, it is also frighteningly close to the future we have in front of us if we keep going down this road. I don't think people understand just how similar those situations were. It's frightening to read about jewish people who are shocked and disturbed about how that very same rhetoric that put them in camps is being applied all over the world. The future is here, and it is dark.
It is very similar in the sense that the lesson that was supposed to be learned from WWII, among others, was that division of people through fear does not make you safe, is not in anyone's best interest and is inhumane. To see people be fearful and resort to the same basic principles of attempting to keep themselves safe is super weird. Like you actively chose to ignore the lessons history has taught you. I don't think it helps to compare them therefor though. People who oppose you will not see the similarity based on principle and will dismiss it because there will never be actual concentration camps of muslims and therefor it is different.
Sad truth is we have no one to blame but ourselves. We put him in office and he's doing exactly what he said he was going to do. How bout that America? A politician who finally does what they promise?
What's really gut wrenching is that his expediency is refreshing, it's his policies that are terrifiying.
I had some friends wanting to vote for him for that reason. To shake us up. They eventually backed down, I mean the few friends I had that believed that. I guess they're still getting what they want in a way.
Was it against everything America stands for when Obama did it? Or only when Trump does it? Just curious whether this is coherent outrage on compassionate grounds or selective outrage on political grounds. I suspect the latter.
I think most of you are missing one major point. The entire problem outside of the obvious moral issue is the use of executive orders, something most of you were probably cheering when Obama was in office. I always said it's dangerous and look where we are now. Just because your guy did things with it that you like, don't be blind to the fact that the next person may use it for things that you hate. So my advice is to reduce the capability of these orders so that this kind of crap doesn't happen.
@bojackhorseman: Are you sure you were watching Band of Brothers? Because this is nothing like that.
There are clear parallels to the world today, and the pre-war era. Nationalism on the rise is just one of those things. The abandoning of trade agreements should scare everyone. If it's one thing we learned post-war, it's that trade brings peace. Make countries dependent on each other, and you will have a much better chance for lasting peace. That was what the EU was originally all about. It's a shame to see history repeat itself, and so quickly after a war that devastated the whole world. I'm an army man, and have been so all my adult life. I can't see any scenario where we are not at war in the near future.
@bojackhorseman: trade doesn't bring peace when it ruins the lives of your citizens who can't find a job because it's cheaper to make elsewhere due to those agreements. It will eventually lead to civil unrest and possibly civil war.
@immortal_guy: Well of all the things thats said about trump i think he made it pretty clear all the time he was gonna do this and he was gonna do this as fast as possible. People just didnt belive him which is another thing.
I guess, but the speed and stupidity with which he's launched into this really is mind-boggling. To give an example of the (I presume?) unintended consequences of the way he's doing things: a Glaswiegan vet (who grew up and studied in Italy) was trying to return from a holiday in Costa Rica. She merely had a connecting flight in New York, and was still banned from boarding the plane by this executive order, because she was born in Iran and travels with an Iranian passport. (Thankfully the power of crowdfunding has assured that she can fly home by an alternative route).
This is a surefire indicator that Trump has not thought about - or doesn't care about - the consequences of his actions in the slightest.
[PS. I mention that she grew up in Italy, rather than Iran, to highlight how stupid and thoughtless a blanket ban based on passports is - even if one takes Trump's unapologetically racist position.]
@jimbo: If your best defense is "b-but Obama did it too!", you would be much better served just not saying anything at all. Besides the fact that it's a lazy assumption based non-argument, it's also not true. Obama suspended the refugee program from one country (Iraq) after finding actual evidence that terrorists had infiltrated the country through the program. Trump's order is based on zero evidence and is a poorly conceived moronic law in addition to his blatant islamaphobia.
@bfz: but he didn't, he softened the blow big time. He didn't ban Muslim immigration, he suspended immigration from 7 countries on a watch list. If he really did want to ban all Muslim immigration he wouldn't have made it temporary and would have done it for Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Lebanon, etc
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