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#101 Edited by Turambar (6738 posts) -

@winternet said:

@turambar: But, that's your opinion on "if a game is worth putting down money for" and not your opinion on the actual game, which is what we were talking about before. It's two different opinions on two different subjects.

That's the original argument this current one strayed from, so I'll address that in a moment. For now, do you accept that opinions are not predicated on being well-informed. If not, the original argument has no resolution as your interpretation of the word does not correlate with its actual definition.

#102 Edited by Turambar (6738 posts) -

@turambar said:

@winternet said:

@turambar: You're talking about this definition? opinion - "your feelings or thoughts about sb/sth, rather than a fact"

No, I'm talking about your interpretation of it that keeps it from being an umbrella term that also includes the likes of notions, conceptions, and personal analysis and judgement based on the experiences of others.

Can I get this straight? You guys are arguing about whether or not a value judgement based on review(s) of a game is considered an opinion?

The argument started as a disagreement in whether or not "an opinion on whether a game is worth buying based on a review" is also "an opinion on the game itself." That's been set off to the side after we realized his interpretation of the word "opinion" is not the same as mine, which renders any attempt at discussing the point pretty much moot.

#103 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@turambar said:

@winternet said:

@turambar: But, that's your opinion on "if a game is worth putting down money for" and not your opinion on the actual game, which is what we were talking about before. It's two different opinions on two different subjects.

That's the original argument this current one strayed from, so I'll address that in a moment. For now, do you accept that opinions are not predicated on being well-informed. If not, the original argument has no resolution as the your interpretation of the word does not correlate with its actual definition.

Opinions are not predicated on being well-informed. But, I don't call every thought or value judgement that comes out of someone an opinion. I use other words. Are we cool with that?

#104 Posted by Ekami (256 posts) -

kiss him. now is the perfect moment. kiss him on the mouth

#105 Posted by believer258 (11794 posts) -

This is probably a terrible idea, but it allows me to procrastinate more so

@winternet:

But, I already explained this. You want to be simplistic and call all of that, opinions. I don't. When I use the word opinion, I'm referring to something that is well realized, informed and though-out. For the rest, I use the words like notions, guesses, preconceptions and all that jazz. We've been over this.


Language doesn't really have much of a value when you are free to apply your own definitions to the simplest of terms at your own whims, or even when you change them to include your own ideas. You then run into the "no true Scotsman" problem.You must use the generally-accepted idea of an opinion as "thoughts and feelings on something not based in fact" (paraphrased) or else your argument is rendered pointless.

@turambar:

"an opinion on whether a game is worth buying based on a review" is also "an opinion on the game itself."

Of course not; the two are different things. That doesn't mean that they aren't both opinions; it just means that one is far more well-informed than the other. You must know your own thoughts and feelings on whether a game looks worth your time and money or not, and then you can form a more well-rounded opinion once you've played it.

#106 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@believer258: But, I'm not doing that. Allow me to give an example. If I ask someone for their opinion about a TV show, what I am expecting is for him/her to say if he/she thinks the show is good or not and explain why that is. You know, the story is this and that, the characters are apples or oranges, the action is red or blue, you know stuff like that. If the answer that I get is "It's bad, because ugh anime", well I'm not going to say that's an opinion, really. It's a preconceived notion "that just because it's Anime it's bad".

I agree, we have to use the generally-accepted use of the word opinion, but that is more than just "thoughts and feelings on something". I mean, when you ask for an opinion on something are you expecting some gibberish nonsense? You expect something more than that. When you ask for an opinion what you're really asking for is an informed and though out string of thoughts. Or am I totally off-based on this?

#107 Posted by Turambar (6738 posts) -

@winternet said:

Opinions are not predicated on being well-informed. But, I don't call every thought or value judgement that comes out of someone an opinion. I use other words. Are we cool with that?

Sure, there's more than one word that can be attached to a meaning after all. However, they are still opinions regardless of whether that is the term of your choosing in describing them.

Now that we've set that aside, back to the original discussion, as seen below.


Of course not; the two are different things. That doesn't mean that they aren't both opinions; it just means that one is far more well-informed than the other. You must know your own thoughts and feelings on whether a game looks worth your time and money or not, and then you can form a more well-rounded opinion once you've played it.

That's where I disagree. They are not two different things, but rather two different levels points of the same thing.

Chronologically speaking, it can only happen in one order, so lets just do a simple step-by-step look.

I read a review on Giantbomb about the new Star Trek game. That review is designed let me know if the game is worth buying/playing when I have no personal experience with it. To do that, it gives me descriptors of the game based on someone else's experience with it, which in turn colors my initial thoughts on the game, my opinion of it. After I have played the game myself, I have a more informed opinion, but I do not store it in a separate mental compartment from the opinion formed after reading the review. I add onto it, enforcing parts of my original opinion that my personal experience has agreed with, and discarding parts of my original opinion that my experience disagrees with.

At the end of this process, I do not somehow have two different opinions of the game in my mind at the same time. The opinion I had of it at the start (which is directly responsible for whether I bought it or not) is an altered, but not separate, opinion of the game after I have played it myself.

#108 Edited by Turambar (6738 posts) -

@winternet said:

@believer258: But, I'm not doing that. Allow me to give an example. If I ask someone for their opinion about a TV show, what I am expecting is for him/her to say if he/she thinks the show is good or not and explain why that is. You know, the story is this and that, the characters are apples or oranges, the action is red or blue, you know stuff like that. If the answer that I get is "It's bad, because ugh anime", well I'm not going to say that's an opinion, really. It's a preconceived notion "that just because it's Anime it's bad".

I agree, we have to use the generally-accepted use of the word opinion, but that is more than just "thoughts and feelings on something". I mean, when you ask for an opinion on something are you expecting some gibberish nonsense? You expect something more than that. When you ask for an opinion what you're really asking for is an informed and though out string of thoughts. Or am I totally off-based on this?

When you ask someone for their opinion, you're asking for how they feel about something. You are hoping that how they feel has been derived from careful consideration, but its by no means bound by your preference of what it should be. It can be a dumb knee-jerk reaction, but as long as it characterizes how they feel about it, its an opinion, because that is the definition of the word.

#109 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@turambar said:

@winternet said:

@believer258: But, I'm not doing that. Allow me to give an example. If I ask someone for their opinion about a TV show, what I am expecting is for him/her to say if he/she thinks the show is good or not and explain why that is. You know, the story is this and that, the characters are apples or oranges, the action is red or blue, you know stuff like that. If the answer that I get is "It's bad, because ugh anime", well I'm not going to say that's an opinion, really. It's a preconceived notion "that just because it's Anime it's bad".

I agree, we have to use the generally-accepted use of the word opinion, but that is more than just "thoughts and feelings on something". I mean, when you ask for an opinion on something are you expecting some gibberish nonsense? You expect something more than that. When you ask for an opinion what you're really asking for is an informed and though out string of thoughts. Or am I totally off-based on this?

When you ask someone for their opinion, you're asking for how they feel about something. You are hoping that how they feel has been derived from careful consideration, but its by no means bound by your preference of what it should be. It can be a dumb knee-jerk reaction, but as long as it characterizes how they feel about it, its an opinion, because that is the definition of the word.

No, if I want to know how they feel about something I ask them "How do you feel about that?" When you're asking this you're expecting a brief answer. One that just goes right to the core of the matter. When you're asking for an opinion, you expect a more detailed answer, something with more meat to it.

#110 Posted by Turambar (6738 posts) -

@winternet: That would be your preference, and a damned good preference to have. However, it's not the definition of the word.

#111 Posted by believer258 (11794 posts) -

@turambar said:

@winternet said:

@believer258: But, I'm not doing that. Allow me to give an example. If I ask someone for their opinion about a TV show, what I am expecting is for him/her to say if he/she thinks the show is good or not and explain why that is. You know, the story is this and that, the characters are apples or oranges, the action is red or blue, you know stuff like that. If the answer that I get is "It's bad, because ugh anime", well I'm not going to say that's an opinion, really. It's a preconceived notion "that just because it's Anime it's bad".

I agree, we have to use the generally-accepted use of the word opinion, but that is more than just "thoughts and feelings on something". I mean, when you ask for an opinion on something are you expecting some gibberish nonsense? You expect something more than that. When you ask for an opinion what you're really asking for is an informed and though out string of thoughts. Or am I totally off-based on this?

When you ask someone for their opinion, you're asking for how they feel about something. You are hoping that how they feel has been derived from careful consideration, but its by no means bound by your preference of what it should be. It can be a dumb knee-jerk reaction, but as long as it characterizes how they feel about it, its an opinion, because that is the definition of the word.

No, if I want to know how they feel about something I ask them "How do you feel about that?" When you're asking this you're expecting a brief answer. One that just goes right to the core of the matter. When you're asking for an opinion, you expect a more detailed answer, something with more meat to it.

But they're both opinions, though. What you just described is an opinion. When you ask someone how they feel about something, they answer with whatever opinion they have come up with.

"How do you feel about Star Trek?"

"It was a shitty game" <- That is an opinion. Not a very well qualified one, nor a well thought-out one, but an opinion nonetheless.

@turambar said:

@believer258 said:

Of course not; the two are different things. That doesn't mean that they aren't both opinions; it just means that one is far more well-informed than the other. You must know your own thoughts and feelings on whether a game looks worth your time and money or not, and then you can form a more well-rounded opinion once you've played it.

That's where I disagree. They are not two different things, but rather two different levels points of the same thing.

Chronologically speaking, it can only happen in one order, so lets just do a simple step-by-step look.

I read a review on Giantbomb about the new Star Trek game. That review is designed let me know if the game is worth buying/playing when I have no personal experience with it. To do that, it gives me descriptors of the game based on someone else's experience with it, which in turn colors my initial thoughts on the game, my opinion of it. After I have played the game myself, I have a more informed opinion, but I do not store it in a separate mental compartment from the opinion formed after reading the review. I add onto it, enforcing parts of my original opinion that my personal experience has agreed with, and discarding parts of my original opinion that my experience disagrees with.

At the end of this process, I do not somehow have two different opinions of the game in my mind at the same time. The opinion I had of it at the start (which is directly responsible for whether I bought it or not) is an altered, but not separate, opinion of the game after I have played it myself.

I'll accept that as a valid end to this argument.

#112 Edited by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@believer258: I thought you wanted to talk about generally-accepted use of the word and not going back to the technicalities of the definitions.

@turambar said:

@winternet: That would be your preference, and a damned good preference to have. However, it's not the definition of the word.

I actually can't believe that in your normal everyday talk you are this picky. Are you this technical about how someone uses a word or not? I wonder if you're this technical with other words as well. If someone says "This briefcase is red" do you go "well, it actually is not. This is not hex ff0000, it's actually hex ff0003"?

#113 Posted by Demoskinos (14764 posts) -

This has got to be my favorite use of full thread editing yet. Haha.

#114 Edited by Trilogy (2649 posts) -

#115 Posted by GS_Dan (1403 posts) -

How is this thread still open?

#116 Posted by Yummylee (21502 posts) -

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

#117 Posted by AssInAss (2618 posts) -

@jdh5153 said:

Done. Should be interesting.

Livestream that shit, I'll watch it.

#118 Posted by Jrinswand (1703 posts) -

OMFGLOL @ the altered OP and thread title.

#119 Posted by altairre (1178 posts) -

@yummylee said:

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

Dude, that was kinda harsh...

#120 Edited by Dagbiker (6966 posts) -

I think you just like bad games. But hey, I'm glad you're enjoying it, that's really all that matters.

Sadly this is all some genres ever get. Like games based on TV shows. Or adventure games. This is one reason I have come to like bad games. Because for half a decade it has been the bread and butter for adventure games.

#121 Posted by TheHT (11135 posts) -

i lol'd.

Online
#122 Posted by Sterling (2158 posts) -

I don't see what the big deal is. I finished the game, had a terrible experience with the second half and changed my mind about the game. What is so odd about that?

@yummylee said:

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

So I finished the game, changed my mind about it because of a bad experience, and some how that is a terrible thing and I am some how trolling for attention? Right. Also, what do you have against Polygon?

Online
#123 Edited by Turambar (6738 posts) -

@winternet said:

@believer258: I thought you wanted to talk about generally-accepted use of the word and not going back to the technicalities of the definitions.

@turambar said:

@winternet: That would be your preference, and a damned good preference to have. However, it's not the definition of the word.

I actually can't believe that in your normal everyday talk you are this picky. Are you this technical about how someone uses a word or not? I wonder if you're this technical with other words as well. If someone says "This briefcase is red" do you go "well, it actually is not. This is not hex ff0000, it's actually hex ff0003"?

Since we've moved on to being uselessly snarky now, isn't oddly limiting the definitions of words you're side of the argument, and accepting that red is an umbrella term that cover multiple shades on that end of the spectrum my side?

#124 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@turambar said:

@winternet said:

@believer258: I thought you wanted to talk about generally-accepted use of the word and not going back to the technicalities of the definitions.

@turambar said:

@winternet: That would be your preference, and a damned good preference to have. However, it's not the definition of the word.

I actually can't believe that in your normal everyday talk you are this picky. Are you this technical about how someone uses a word or not? I wonder if you're this technical with other words as well. If someone says "This briefcase is red" do you go "well, it actually is not. This is not hex ff0000, it's actually hex ff0003"?

Since we've moved on to being uselessly snarky now, isn't oddly limiting the definitions of words you're side of the argument, and accepting that red is an umbrella term that cover multiple shades on that end of the spectrum my side?

God dammit, I thought this was over.

#125 Posted by Zeik (2362 posts) -

I don't see what the big deal is. I finished the game, had a terrible experience with the second half and changed my mind about the game. What is so odd about that?

@yummylee said:

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

So I finished the game, changed my mind about it because of a bad experience, and some how that is a terrible thing and I am some how trolling for attention? Right. Also, what do you have against Polygon?

Your recant was past the first few posts of the topic. That was your mistake. Most people don't read beyond that before posting something stupid.

#127 Posted by Turambar (6738 posts) -

God dammit, I thought this was over.

So did I. Then I saw that up tick in my new message count, moused over it to see the username, and just let out an annoyed sigh.

I don't see what the big deal is. I finished the game, had a terrible experience with the second half and changed my mind about the game. What is so odd about that?

@yummylee said:

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

So I finished the game, changed my mind about it because of a bad experience, and some how that is a terrible thing and I am some how trolling for attention? Right. Also, what do you have against Polygon?

Also, finally caught the edited original post. That was actually a rather respectable (also funny) touch.

#128 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

@turambar: Dude, I know the feeling. Which is not an opinion. (hey-o, reference)

#129 Edited by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

I don't see what the big deal is. I finished the game, had a terrible experience with the second half and changed my mind about the game. What is so odd about that?

@yummylee said:

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

So I finished the game, changed my mind about it because of a bad experience, and some how that is a terrible thing and I am some how trolling for attention? Right. Also, what do you have against Polygon?

Well, you probably could have made it more clear that the original thread was just a first impression. Because, basing everything you feel about a game (or at least speaking as if you were), on a short chunk of said game is why reviewers finish games. They can warm up, turn to shit, or change entirely.

#130 Edited by Undeadpool (4923 posts) -
#131 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@winternet:I thought Syndicate was a pretty good game up until that first boss battle. I ended up getting very frustrated with it and ended up never playing it again though. But I thought everything before that (so probably most of the game) was pretty good.

If you are asking what games I think are great games, I don't judge games like most people I guess. I only base my opinion on my personal experience and playing time with them. I don't care what the general consensus is. I don't care what reviews say. With that said. Some games I think are "freaking fantastic" are Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Mass Effect (1,2 & 3), Spec Ops The Line, Skyrim, Ni No Kuni, P4G, Crusader Kings II, Dragon's Dogma, and a bunch more, but that is just off the top of my head.

Games that got a bad rap and or reviews that I enjoyed however: Alpha Protocol Two Worlds 1 & 2, Ventica, RAGE, Silent Hill Downpour, Risen 1& 2, and many more. This is just from this gen. And off the top of my head.

I guess I also don't have a tremendous hate reaction to games like most people. I am not that picky. As long as I can have fun in a game, that is all that matters. Yes, I do want games to be good, have a great story and great mechanics. But not every game can be a game of the year.

The first boss battle was cake....

#132 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

As for Star Trek. The Stealth bullshit was worn out the very first time they did it. Then to force nearly ALL optional stuff to be stealth was their downfall.

#133 Edited by Yummylee (21502 posts) -

@altairre: @rabidcentipede: wut. It was a joke referring to how Polygon switched their reviews score for Simcity from a 9 to a 4... I never said you were trolling for attention nor can I see how I was in anyway being 'harsh'.

I specifically put the gibberish ''asdf'' at the end there to help note that I was just being facetious.

#134 Edited by TobbRobb (4601 posts) -

Best use of thread editing. 10/10. Also that game looks boring as shit, but I say that about good games in a similar mold, so w/e.

#135 Posted by altairre (1178 posts) -

@yummylee said:

@altairre: @rabidcentipede: wut. It was a joke referring to how Polygon switched their reviews score for Simcity from a 9 to a 4... I never said you were trolling for attention nor can I see how I was in anyway being 'harsh'.

I specifically put the gibberish ''asdf'' at the end there to help note that I was just being facetious.

I know what you were referring to and I wasn't being serious either though I maybe forgot to put the gibberish at the end of the post. Man that Polygon thing was fucking stupid (I think Justin McElroy even made fun of it in his Star Trek review).

#136 Edited by KarlPilkington (2716 posts) -
#137 Posted by MetalGearSunny (6988 posts) -

@altairre said:

@yummylee said:

Way to completely flip your thread title there. This guy could be perfect for working in Polygon's editorial team...... asdf

Dude, that was kinda harsh...

BAM

DAMN

OHHHH SHIT

SHOTS FIRED

...

meh I like Polygon but that was funny

#138 Posted by jdh5153 (1034 posts) -

So I'm a few hours in and I have to say it's not the worst game I've ever played. It has some really poor level design at times, the jumping can be really horrible and there are some annoying glitches....But it's playable. Saying that, it's not worth $60 at ALL. But if you can rent it, I would say at least give it a shot. $2/day from Red Box, you can cut your losses at $2 or you could probably beat it in a night. I'm about 4, maybe 5 hours in and have just 3 missions left.

I wrote a review (of sorts) if you want to read a bit more. It could've been better, but out of all the movie games ever made I'd say it's certainly in the top 5%.

#139 Posted by KarlPilkington (2716 posts) -
#140 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@jdh5153 said:

So I'm a few hours in and I have to say it's not the worst game I've ever played. It has some really poor level design at times, the jumping can be really horrible and there are some annoying glitches....But it's playable. Saying that, it's not worth $60 at ALL. But if you can rent it, I would say at least give it a shot. $2/day from Red Box, you can cut your losses at $2 or you could probably beat it in a night. I'm about 4, maybe 5 hours in and have just 3 missions left.

I wrote a review (of sorts) if you want to read a bit more. It could've been better, but out of all the movie games ever made I'd say it's certainly in the top 5%.

How can you write a review if you have not finished the game? Also wait till the stupid stealth shit starts.

#141 Posted by KarlPilkington (2716 posts) -
#142 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2489 posts) -

I really liked the last season of Enterprise.

Wait, what are we talking about again.

#143 Edited by laserbolts (5319 posts) -

@jrinswand said:

@zeforgotten said:

@rabidcentipede said:

@winternet:I thought Syndicate was a pretty good game up until that first boss battle. I ended up getting very frustrated with it and ended up never playing it again though. But I thought everything before that (so probably most of the game) was pretty good.

If you are asking what games I think are great games, I don't judge games like most people I guess. I only base my opinion on my personal experience and playing time with them. I don't care what the general consensus is. I don't care what reviews say. With that said. Some games I think are "freaking fantastic" are Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Mass Effect (1,2 & 3), Spec Ops The Line, Skyrim, Ni No Kuni, P4G, Crusader Kings II, Dragon's Dogma, and a bunch more, but that is just off the top of my head.

Games that got a bad rap and or reviews that I enjoyed however: Alpha Protocol Two Worlds 1 & 2, Ventica, RAGE, Silent Hill Downpour, Risen 1& 2, and many more. This is just from this gen. And off the top of my head.

I guess I also don't have a tremendous hate reaction to games like most people. I am not that picky. As long as I can have fun in a game, that is all that matters. Yes, I do want games to be good, have a great story and great mechanics. But not every game can be a game of the year.

Holy shit.

So there are people out there who are able to form their very own opinions about games(and books, and movies and so on) and not just doing like the majority of dead fish and go with the flow?!

You are a welcome sight among a sea of brainwashed drones!

Let us make a club of pretty cool people.

It'll just be you and me so the beer is free, at least.

Holy shit.

Not everybody is made of infinite money. I (and I assume many others as well) can't buy every game that comes along simply because it might be an underrated gem. Also, as I said earlier, I've got too many other things to do in the day to spend my free time playing an inferior game when that time could be better spent playing a game that I don't have to make concessions to enjoy.

Never said any of those things and my point apparantly flew right over your head.

But at least you had a point to something someone said somewhere, so good on you.. I think? :P

If you took offence to the "brainwashed drones" part(I'm just guessing here) then I didn't mean Giant Bomb people.

More just internet people in general that just go "YEAH! This game totally sucks. Everything is so bad about it, gameplay, music, characters, everything"

Then you ask them if they have actually played the game and they go

"no, but someone told me so"

It's just sad.

Where do you find those people? Surely they are easily avoidable since I dont run into that sort of stuff at all and im not even trying to avoid it.