The Great American Game?

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#1 Edited by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

In the US we have a concept of "The Great American X." The idea of a work that is of the highest quality and that defines America and The American Dream in a way that transcends the medium and becomes a force for social reflection. Generally people say there is only one Great American X for any one medium. The Great American Play, for example, is often argued to be The Death of a Salesman due to its exceptionally high quality of writing and the way it perfectly encapsulates the idea of success in America. The Great Gatsby is often offered as The Great American Novel, again due to the amazing quality of the writing, and the way it defines class distinctions and the drive to overcome them in America. The Great American Movie is more arguable with some citing Citizen Kane as the obvious example. Personally I'd root for Paul Thomas Anderson's There Will Be Blood or his recent The Master as the best examples though others would definitely disagree.

Back in 2008 Rockstar took a stab at making The Great American Game with Grand Theft Auto 4. That game came closer than any had before, but the sometimes hokey script and the violence perpetrated by the lead character really shot down its attempt pretty solidly. The studio tried again in 2010 with Red Dead Redemption and came even closer. Some might even argue that they succeeded. Personally I find that the game's poorly structured story again denies it a chance at being called The Great American Game. It is a shame, because Rockstar came within inches of delivering the equivalent of Citizen Kane or The Great Gatsby in gaming. And then they just royally screwed it up with a story that loses its focus due in part to the number of pointless side quests that ruin the pacing and the immediacy of the story. And then it seals the coffin with a poorly conceived ending that could have been done just so much better with a few minor changes.

Now Rockstar returns with GTA5. Personally I see little to make me think that this time Rockstar will succeed in telling the story it has tried to tell several times over now. But I guess I'll hold out hope that Rockstar will maybe show enough restraint and intelligence to deliver the first truly Great American Game. If not, I guess I'll just keep hoping that some developer somewhere can make such a game happen.

What say you guys? Do you think Rockstar will be the company to make The Great American Game, or do you think we still have a ways to go before we hit that point?

EDIT: It has come to my attention that Rockstar North is in fact not an American company. So I guess I will change my question to be, if Rockstar can't make the great American game, who do you think will? Or is it something so far away that we couldn't even guess?

#2 Posted by Tylea002 (2295 posts) -

They will never make the great american game, for those games are made in Scotland (mostly, now, with the whole shared development), and are a parody of America's self serious vision of itself.

#3 Posted by believer258 (11772 posts) -

@Tylea002 said:

They will never make the great american game, for those games are made in Scotland (mostly, now, with the whole shared development), and are a parody of America's self serious vision of itself.

To which game/studio might you be referring?

#4 Posted by Azteck (7449 posts) -

This is incredibly embarrassing.

#5 Posted by punkxblaze (2968 posts) -

GTA V Will be the Citizen Kane of video games.

#6 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@Tylea002: I would agree with you in the case of the PS2 GTA games, but I think GTA4 took a more serious approach and Red Dead Redemption was definitely not a parody. And Rockstar North is not located in Scotland...

#7 Posted by Extreme_Popcorn (842 posts) -

@Raven10 said:

@Tylea002: I would agree with you in the case of the PS2 GTA games, but I think GTA4 took a more serious approach and Red Dead Redemption was definitely not a parody. And Rockstar North is not located in Scotland...

http://www.rockstarnorth.com/

Yeah, they are.

#8 Posted by mikeeegeee (1553 posts) -

Correction: The Great American Movie is Forrest Gump.

#9 Posted by MaxxS (196 posts) -
#10 Posted by AlexW00d (6227 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@Tylea002 said:

They will never make the great american game, for those games are made in Scotland (mostly, now, with the whole shared development), and are a parody of America's self serious vision of itself.

To which game/studio might you be referring?

@Raven10 said:

@Tylea002: I would agree with you in the case of the PS2 GTA games, but I think GTA4 took a more serious approach and Red Dead Redemption was definitely not a parody. And Rockstar North is not located in Scotland...

You guys. God damn you guys. This is the best thread.

#11 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3179 posts) -

I dunno man... this topic makes me uncomfortable.

Also, Rockstar isn't from America originally. And the dude who writes most of GTA is English, isn't he? He's parodying American culture. In a sense that could still make it the American game, but I don't know if that's what you meant. It's a weird topic/question. American books are one thing. But as soon as you have a team, what decides what makes it American? This is a huge debate in film right now. Who funded the movie? Who wrote it? Who direct it? Who stars in it? Where was it filmed? What's it about? How many ticks in each column do you need to be American, French, Canadian, etc.

Maybe just elucidate what you mean by The Great American Game. I get the feeling you mean a game that captures the essence of being an American at the time it was released, but GTA to me isn't about America per se. It's just about "The West", and America has always been the symbol for that.

#12 Posted by believer258 (11772 posts) -

@AlexW00d said:

@believer258 said:

@Tylea002 said:

They will never make the great american game, for those games are made in Scotland (mostly, now, with the whole shared development), and are a parody of America's self serious vision of itself.

To which game/studio might you be referring?

@Raven10 said:

@Tylea002: I would agree with you in the case of the PS2 GTA games, but I think GTA4 took a more serious approach and Red Dead Redemption was definitely not a parody. And Rockstar North is not located in Scotland...

You guys. God damn you guys. This is the best thread.

I thought he meant that there were different studios and games being made in Scotland, not that Rockstar was actually in Scotland. Or, at least, not in America. Sue me, I'm not a fan of Rockstar and don't know much about them other than that they made GTA, Red Dead, Table Tennis, and, before a name change, Lemmings.

#13 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

Well I'll be damned, they aren't American. My mistake. I still think it is an interesting topic though.

@GERALTITUDE: I didn't realize they weren't American, so I guess, no, Rockstar North can't make The Great American Game. Red Dead Redemption was made mostly in San Diego though, so I think I still hold my case on that one. I think it's hard to define who exactly is the "author" of a game. It was a topic of great discussion in film making for decades until the French New Wave created the idea that the author of a film was the Director. In games we still have that question, especially in the US. In Japan you'll find that they believe the author of a game to be the director of the game. We have creative directors here who are partially the author of the game, but I see your point. It is a hard thing to know for certain, but I don't think you can't have a Great American Game because of that.

As far as the term Great American X, it generally refers to a piece of art which is of the greatest quality and also defines what it means to be American.

#14 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@GERALTITUDE: I'll just add that it also generally deals with success and failure in the American economic system. It also generally focuses on whether or not that success can lead to happiness and fulfillment or if the American Dream offers only the illusion of success. The Great Gatsby is the ultimate Great American X. It is pretty inarguable. The Death of a Salesman is also pretty much the inarguable example for a play. Movies and games are less firm. Citizen Kane is probably the best example in film (again I'll throw my money in for There Will Be Blood) and my question was really, do you think a company can create the great American game?

#15 Posted by Fjordson (2448 posts) -

Prepare for lots of cynicism up in here. The Giant Bomb crowd is super weird when it comes to open-world games.

Anyways, I think if anyone will do it then R* will be the ones. No one else really even attempts to do what they do. They examine contemporary American culture, and American history with something like Red Dead, in a way that you don't often see in video games. It's the main reason why I love this series and R* in general. I just love the satire and how their games are steeped in Americana.

But yeah, it's important to note that the game is made in Scotland. And the head creative guys are all English. Even with Red Dead. While it was made in San Diego, the Houser brothers and Leslie Benzies are the heart of the company creatively (Dan Houser writes every R* game, and Sam Houser and Leslie Benzies are executive producers on every game).

#16 Posted by AlexW00d (6227 posts) -

@Raven10: If you're going by that does that mean being a mass-murderer car thief from an unnamed Eastern European country that comes to America to make money with his cousin is what it means to be American? Haha.

#17 Posted by awesomeusername (4168 posts) -

R* North is from Scotland!!??!?!? Gee wilikers! I hate their American Non-American games now!

#18 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@AlexW00d: As I said in my original post, I think Rockstar failed in GTA4 for that very reason. The idea of someone coming over and facing the reality of the American Dream is a good recipe for what I am talking about. But the acts of wanton violence he commits ruins the potential. That's why I think RDR did it better but still fell apart due to its open world nature, and poorly conceived conclusion.

#19 Posted by mlarrabee (2909 posts) -

The GTA series is a parody of America.

#20 Posted by Grimhild (723 posts) -

Nope.

#21 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@Fjordson: I actually dislike Rockstar games because I think they come close to saying something really profound and then lose it due to unneeded sex or violence, or because the player has to go off on some random fetch quest or something like that. I think, barring the fact that the studio isn't American, if RDR hadn't been an open world and if the story had been structured differently, it could have been the Citizen Kane of games.

#22 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3179 posts) -

That was a popular idea then, but not everyone believes that the nationality of the director = the identity of the film. Look at James Cameron and David Cronenberg. Similarly, look at Justin Bieber. Their stuff is as Canadian as I am a fucking monkey!

*jumps up to a tree and grabs a banana*

But enough about movies anyway, let's not fight about a medium that's beneath our intellect! Instead, games: if we're going to go with The Great American X being a super high quality, uh, expose, on what it means to be American, then off the top of my head I'm thinking of:

  • GTA
  • RDR
  • LA Noire
  • COD
  • ACIII

These all have something to say about American culture, are literally about America, or take a particularly American view of their subject matter. They're also all obvious picks. More out-of-the-box could be Hotline Miami (re: Cronenberg) and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (just imagine everyone in the game is a politician).

#23 Posted by PandaBear (1344 posts) -

@Raven10 said:

Well I'll be damned, they aren't American. My mistake. I still think it is an interesting topic though.

@GERALTITUDE: I didn't realize they weren't American, so I guess, no, Rockstar North can't make The Great American Game. Red Dead Redemption was made mostly in San Diego though, so I think I still hold my case on that one. I think it's hard to define who exactly is the "author" of a game. It was a topic of great discussion in film making for decades until the French New Wave created the idea that the author of a film was the Director. In games we still have that question, especially in the US. In Japan you'll find that they believe the author of a game to be the director of the game. We have creative directors here who are partially the author of the game, but I see your point. It is a hard thing to know for certain, but I don't think you can't have a Great American Game because of that.

As far as the term Great American X, it generally refers to a piece of art which is of the greatest quality and also defines what it means to be American.

What's the concern with "The Great American... whatever"? Everything is subjective, even how you perceive your own cultural identity. I see what you mean in some regards, but to say 'This is the movie, this is the book and this is the game" is to ignore anything else that examines American life. Even your example of Citizen Kane can be argued against, as can Death of a Salesmen. How can any one story be true of all people as to their experience within their country.

As an outsider I'd stick with the line GTA V a parody of America. I love America I should add, but a satirical examination of the country is what is needed right now in games rather than the plethora conservative military shooters. On a side note, Red Dead Redemption was less about the country it was set in and more about the transition of the old guard and passing on our virtues in spite of our faults, however successful that may be (IMHO). To say it's a game strictly about America ignore this universal truth.

I think it's conceited to claim GTA as an American game when it's Scottish. Not everything is made in America and a little bit of research goes a long way. Not trying to sound like a dick...

#24 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3179 posts) -

To answer the the question, Can a company make the Great American Game I believe the answer is a resounding yes. But games need to be more edutainment to really reach that level. We're still afraid of the "education" part.

Also, I love the Great Gatsby (and DoaS) but I feel you need to be wary using the American Literary cannon as an example of what the Great American Game would be. Lots of people think all of those books are semi-worthless when it comes to actually portraying the lives/dreams of any Americans who weren't middle or upper class white men (or us, the generations that followed and were raised on said white men's beliefs/raised to believe those books are great). Hopefully whatever the GAG is it's more representative of Americans.

Does Bully focus at all on the school system? It must. Seems like that could be a contender.

#25 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -
@Grimhild said:

Nope.

This. Also, hey gal! Long time no see.
#26 Edited by Atlas (2435 posts) -

As a British person, I cannot comment on a Great American Game, although I am practically American in that my favourite sport is NFL football, most of my favourite bands are American, and the majority of games I play and films and TV series I watch are from the States. If I were eligible to vote, then yeah, I don't think there's a better choice than Red Dead Redemption, as it is such a loving homage to one of the landmarks of American 20th century culture - the film genre of westerns.

This thread does make me wonder what game could be nominated for title of Great British Game, although that doesn't quite resonate in our culture like it does in the States. How about...the Most Excellent Video Game Order of the British Empire? Off the top of my head, Fable II seems like the best choice, as it is so laden with British wit and humour, and of course because the game's world is called Albion. I'm sure many others would suggest a game by Rare e.g. Banjo-Kazooie.

#27 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@GERALTITUDE said:

That was a popular idea then, but not everyone believes that the nationality of the director = the identity of the film. Look at James Cameron and David Cronenberg. Similarly, look at Justin Bieber. Their stuff is as Canadian as I am a fucking monkey!

*jumps up to a tree and grabs a banana*

But enough about movies anyway, let's not fight about a medium that's beneath our intellect! Instead, games: if we're going to go with The Great American X being a super high quality, uh, expose, on what it means to be American, then off the top of my head I'm thinking of:

  • GTA
  • RDR
  • LA Noire
  • COD
  • ACIII

These all have something to say about American culture, are literally about America, or take a particularly American view of their subject matter. They're also all obvious picks. More out-of-the-box could be Hotline Miami (re: Cronenberg) and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (just imagine everyone in the game is a politician).

Humorously a total of one of those games (COD) was made in America. I wouldn't use COD certainly. It is about soldiers and American bravado, not about individual success in a corrupt system, which I think is key to making an expose on America. AC3 is too fantastical and also too major. I think what makes a great American story is the actions of someone who maybe won't be remembered by history as a success or a hero. The founding fathers aren't really exactly what I think I'm talking about. Honestly I don't think any game in existence now fits the bill.

@PandaBear: I don't think it has to represent the story of every American but the American Dream - That with enough hard work everyone can succeed and be remembered as a great person.

#28 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Raven10 said:

In the US we have a concept of "The Great American X."

I've always considered this a dumb concept. I'd say you don't see other countries doing this, but the heart of the issue is this: there are multiple great American X. Isn't it mean to attach that label to just one X, making sure the other X might as well be horse shit in comparison?

#29 Posted by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

i salute your reverence for 'there will be blood' (maybe my favorite film), and i agree that 'gta v' probably won't achieve the lofty goal of 'great american game/story,' or whatever. unless it happens to be more linear than other games- the open-ended nature of the gameplay in addition to the adolescent nature of the humor prevents anyone from taking it too seriously- for better or worse.

i like red dead as a suggestion, as it portrays the frontiers of america- warts and heroes. but again- the sandbox kinda makes it too video-gamey. yeah- i don't really have any other suggestions...but then again i'm not very patriotic so it isn't something i've thought about before. i do look forward to a day when someone addresses the current state of the nation in an eloquent manner- the plight of a superpower that faces substantial challenges into the future, and the cost to the citizenry caught in the gears.

and for everyone being all 'this is a stupid discussion,' it's just a thought exercise. and plenty of other countries dabble in this sort of thing- canada, the u.k., and france immediately come to mind when thinking of countries with national pride for their artistic endeavors.

#30 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@Video_Game_King: We give one game GOTY every year do we not? Even though there are multiple great games released every year. That does not mean the other games are bad, just that this one game is better. That said, everyone probably has their own opinion on what the Great American X is. There are accepted scholarly answers (which I presented) but people rarely agree on this sort of thing. But I think the point I was trying to make is that there isn't yet any game that could even contend for the title. It isn't a matter of there being more than one, it's a matter of there being none. While the answer will certainly change as time goes on, I wonder what game will first take that crown, at least for the majority of people.

@mellotronrules: It really was a brilliant film. I agree that sandbox games by nature have a weaker story and that is why I think Rockstar has failed in the past (not counting the fact that they aren't American).

#31 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@Raven10:

A matter of scope, I take it? It's kinda like the Game of the 200-ish Years. (Which I'd obviously give to Seisen no Keifu. Duh.)

#32 Posted by prestonhedges (1965 posts) -

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.

#33 Posted by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@Video_Game_King: Talk to IGN, they might take that as a challenge. In all honesty, people have no problem naming the best game of all time, or the best movie of all time, and so on. I'm not even asking them to do that. The Great American X isn't the best X to ever be released in America, but the one that is of both exceptionally high quality and also depicts the American Dream in an insightful and important manner. I would say there are only a couple dozen entries of any medium that would even qualify. Not many creators try to capture that story. So it really isn't listing the best X of the past 200+ years, but the best X that defines the American Dream, and questions is relevancy and if it actually defines success in this country. Think of it like asking for the best Mario game ever, not the best overall game ever.

#34 Posted by coakroach (2490 posts) -

Saints Row The Third.

#35 Posted by ki11tank (682 posts) -

who cares. honestly.

#36 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@Azteck said:

This is incredibly embarrassing.

I was going to say...

And I'm pretty sure, one-hundred percent in fact, that, "The Great American _______" was some shit you made up, because I've never heard that.

#37 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

The great Scottish game that parodies America maybe..I would say the best American developers are Bethesda.

#38 Edited by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@Napalm said:

@Azteck said:

This is incredibly embarrassing.

I was going to say...

And I'm pretty sure, one-hundred percent in fact, that, "The Great American _______" was some shit you made up, because I've never heard that.

got yer back bro-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Novel

#39 Edited by Raven10 (1759 posts) -

@Napalm said:

@Azteck said:

This is incredibly embarrassing.

I was going to say...

And I'm pretty sure, one-hundred percent in fact, that, "The Great American _______" was some shit you made up, because I've never heard that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Novel

I didn't make it up in the slightest. It is a term with its origins in 19th century American literature, where authors were compelled to create a novel that was of equal quality to the literature of other great nations and that defined America as well as those books defined their nation. Since then the term has broadened its range to include movies and plays and music. Maybe you should have paid attention in English class in High School...

#40 Posted by HisDudeness (252 posts) -

Bioshock.

#41 Posted by AlisterCat (5520 posts) -

Fascinated that anything considered so great should be regarded as an achievement or relevant to a single country rather than, you know, humanity. Humans make great stuff. We're cool like that.

#42 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -

I'm the Citizen Kane of saying I want the Citizen Kane of games.

#43 Posted by PandaBear (1344 posts) -

@Raven10 said:

@GERALTITUDE said:

That was a popular idea then, but not everyone believes that the nationality of the director = the identity of the film. Look at James Cameron and David Cronenberg. Similarly, look at Justin Bieber. Their stuff is as Canadian as I am a fucking monkey!

*jumps up to a tree and grabs a banana*

But enough about movies anyway, let's not fight about a medium that's beneath our intellect! Instead, games: if we're going to go with The Great American X being a super high quality, uh, expose, on what it means to be American, then off the top of my head I'm thinking of:

  • GTA
  • RDR
  • LA Noire
  • COD
  • ACIII

These all have something to say about American culture, are literally about America, or take a particularly American view of their subject matter. They're also all obvious picks. More out-of-the-box could be Hotline Miami (re: Cronenberg) and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (just imagine everyone in the game is a politician).

Humorously a total of one of those games (COD) was made in America. I wouldn't use COD certainly. It is about soldiers and American bravado, not about individual success in a corrupt system, which I think is key to making an expose on America. AC3 is too fantastical and also too major. I think what makes a great American story is the actions of someone who maybe won't be remembered by history as a success or a hero. The founding fathers aren't really exactly what I think I'm talking about. Honestly I don't think any game in existence now fits the bill.

@PandaBear: I don't think it has to represent the story of every American but the American Dream - That with enough hard work everyone can succeed and be remembered as a great person.

But I don't think RDR is about the American dream. It's the universal truth that the old must make way for the new and the fact that a son will bear the sins of their father.

And like I said before there's a general (kinda of arrogant) assumption that western video games are made in America -

  • GTA (Rockstar North (Edinburgh) ie; not America)
  • RDR (Rockstar San Diego AND North (Edinburgh) ie; not America)
  • LA Noire (Australia, ie; not America)
  • Call of Duty (America, obviously)
  • Assassin's Creed III (Ubisoft Montreal.... ie; not America)

All of these games have something to say about American culture? I guess. But most are either straight entertainment, a parody or speaking more to a truth that can be found around the world. As I have also said before, I love America, but get some perspective. Not everything is an analogy for American life.

The great American game? Pong.

#44 Posted by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@PandaBear said:

And like I said before there's a general (kinda of arrogant) assumption that western video games are made in America -

  • GTA (Rockstar North (Edinburgh) ie; not America)
  • RDR (Rockstar San Diego AND North (Edinburgh) ie; not America)
  • LA Noire (Australia, ie; not America)
  • Call of Duty (America, obviously)
  • Assassin's Creed III (Ubisoft Montreal.... ie; not America)

All of these games have something to say about American culture? I guess. But most are either straight entertainment, a parody or speaking more to a truth that can be found around the world. As I have also said before, I love America, but get some perspective. Not everything is an analogy for American life.

The great American game? Pong.

i don't think there's anything implicitly arrogant about assuming 'american' stories are being made in america- frankly i'm amazed anyone from outside the USA would be interested in 'american' stories, let alone making them (i'm american and i'm not terribly fascinated by the concept of the 'american dream' itself). in fact, what would you say is more arrogant- assuming 'american' stories are only being crafted by americans, OR presuming as a non-american that you COULD craft an 'american' story?

i'm not saying one way or the either- i just don't arrogance factors into either equation.

#45 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3179 posts) -

Who's this direct at duder? Confused. I pointed out a long time ago in this thread where/who makes GTA so I definitely know where all these games were made. I was trying to answer the OPs question while ignoring the idea that maybe the Great American Game has to be made by an American Team (whatever that means).

That list of games was just games obviously set in American at obvious historical times. You can say all you want that RDR is about more general things, which it is too, but it is also very literally about a specific time in American history, America's relationship with Mexico, East Money vs Western Land, and American views of heroes, outlaws, cowboys and all that. COD is in there because it actually presents (on a meta-level at least) the single most stereotypical view of Americans in all of games.

Finally, I don't love America. So there! :)

#46 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

MURICA

#47 Posted by McGhee (6094 posts) -

Grand Theft Auto parodies many things. It is not just a "parody of America."

#48 Posted by Zella (726 posts) -

@HisDudeness said:

Bioshock.

This. It was made by an American company(well the first and Infinite are), both praises and mocks american culture, and is also a really good game.

You could also say Call of Duty as a franchise could be the Great American Game due to how it represents many aspects of american culture such as the glorification of guns and war(not unique to the US at all but still), capitalism, mass consumerism, extremely devise in peoples opinions on it, trend setting, etc.

Also this is actually an interesting topic so seeing it devolve into what 'Merica is and arguing about R* being Scottish is disappointing.

#49 Posted by Hailinel (24263 posts) -

GTA is and always has been a parody of America as seen through the eyes of Scottish people that lifts a lot of its best ideas from various movies.

Online
#50 Posted by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@Zella said:

@HisDudeness said:

Bioshock.

This. It was made by an American company(well the first and Infinite are), both praises and mocks american culture, and is also a really good game.

You could also say Call of Duty as a franchise could be the Great American Game due to how it represents many aspects of american culture such as the glorification of guns and war(not unique to the US at all but still), capitalism, mass consumerism, extremely devise in peoples opinions on it, trend setting, etc.

Also this is actually an interesting topic so seeing it devolve into what 'Merica is and arguing about R* being Scottish is disappointing.

bioshock is an interesting case, but it feels more like a 'america as it could have been if libertarians ruled the country.' so i'd argue it's almost like a bizarro america. i'm really interested to see what the tone of the new one is like.

and as far as cod goes- you're right, it might be an very accurate snapshot of american interests and cultural norms. but i don't know if i'd say it qualifies as 'great'- those narratives are far too fucked up to be considered excellent writing. you could say the same for mcdonalds- it's probably the most 'american' of restaurants (in terms of what represents)- that doesn't mean it's the greatest of cuisine that america has to offer. that's whole hog BBQ and apple pie, god damn it!

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