@Aelric: I hope it turns out to be right. It would certainly make for a better ending.

As much as I enjoy the Indoctrination Theory, I can't help but remember the following;

• If commander sheperd is in Control of the Reapers, there's a damn good chance they can rebuild relays. Also; sentient peace as dictated by Shepard's now Reaper-infused will.
• If Commander Shepmerged all organic and synthetic life, the infinite intelligence that would create could again, build the relays.
• If Commander Sheperd destroyed the reapers, then there are dead reapers laying on every major planet in the galaxy, that no longer indoctrinate, hence reverse engineering is possible.

Still, a really cool idea, and I hope it's legit. The implications of Bioware indoctrinating millions so effectively is.. exciting. :)

e/ the aforementioned points also assumes that MExplosions didn't wipe out all intelligent life in the process

I'm over this shit. I can't wait for Bioware to explain this so everybody will STFU.

@WilliamHenry said:

@pyrodactyl said:

Seeing that, most people would rather believe that the last 10-20 minutes of the game were all a dream than accept the ending as what it actually is, is hilarious to me.

Also, the human race is doomed. Not in mass effect, just a comment on life in general.

Every race/species is doomed. Its just a matter of how immediate that doom is.

According to this poll, for us, very immediate

Arguing with Indoctrination "theorists" is like arguing with any conspiracy theorists. Logic and common sense don't matter, because anything can be "explained" away by pointing at sheer coincidence and wishful thinking.

@selbie said:

I'm over this shit. I can't wait for Bioware to explain this so everybody will STFU.

Considering they aren't changing the ending, and merely adding more info, the plot holes will still exist. People aren't going to STFU, they're going to be angrier.

@Pinworm45 said:

@selbie said:

I'm over this shit. I can't wait for Bioware to explain this so everybody will STFU.

Considering they aren't changing the ending, and merely adding more info, the plot holes will still exist. People aren't going to STFU, they're going to be angrier.

What plot holes? Your crew leaving and Anderson also being on the Crucible? Both can be reasonably explained. If BioWare adds cutscenes showing these things, I don't see any reason for people to still be angry.

Indoctrination theory relies on more fuzzy logic and has more plot holes than the harshest critics accuse the actual ending of having, so, no.

The ending, "as is," is an incoherent jumble of scenes that are almost not even related to each other, not even mentioning the shitty Spacechild retcon'ing mess. The indoctrination theory is supported by clear-cut evidence. And yes, there are holes in the indoctrination theory, mainly because we haven't been given all of the facts/evidence, as BioWare has clearly stated themselves. This has led to a lot of understandable leaps with the logic. BioWare is to blame for that one.

If you truly, honestly thought, "oh yeah, Shepard is totally awake, clearly alive, and in the right state of mind!" as soon as they get hit by the beam, then you are a fucking idiot. Even from the standpoint of the dramatic structure, there are far too many inconsistencies and weird, ethereal shit happening in the following ten minutes for any of that shit to be god-damn real. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out, just a bit of perusing, which most people clearly haven't bothered to do.

@Make_Me_Mad said:

It's actually kind of surprising to see the downright delusional lengths people will go to in order to avoid the ending.

Eeeyup.

Arguing with Indoctrination "theorists" is like arguing with any conspiracy theorists. Logic and common sense don't matter, because anything can be "explained" away by pointing at sheer coincidence and wishful thinking.

@TheHT said:

@Pinworm45 said:

@selbie said:

I'm over this shit. I can't wait for Bioware to explain this so everybody will STFU.

Considering they aren't changing the ending, and merely adding more info, the plot holes will still exist. People aren't going to STFU, they're going to be angrier.

What plot holes? Your crew leaving and Anderson also being on the Crucible? Both can be reasonably explained. If BioWare adds cutscenes showing these things, I don't see any reason for people to still be angry.

This. A few simple tweaks to the exposition of the final events will go a long way to resolving a the grey areas.

@TheHT said:

@Pinworm45 said:

@selbie said:

I'm over this shit. I can't wait for Bioware to explain this so everybody will STFU.

Considering they aren't changing the ending, and merely adding more info, the plot holes will still exist. People aren't going to STFU, they're going to be angrier.

What plot holes? Your crew leaving and Anderson also being on the Crucible? Both can be reasonably explained. If BioWare adds cutscenes showing these things, I don't see any reason for people to still be angry.

This. A few simple tweaks to the exposition of the final events will go a long way to resolving a the grey areas.

@Jimbo said:

@selbie said:

@TheHT said:

@Pinworm45 said:

@selbie said:

I'm over this shit. I can't wait for Bioware to explain this so everybody will STFU.

Considering they aren't changing the ending, and merely adding more info, the plot holes will still exist. People aren't going to STFU, they're going to be angrier.

What plot holes? Your crew leaving and Anderson also being on the Crucible? Both can be reasonably explained. If BioWare adds cutscenes showing these things, I don't see any reason for people to still be angry.

This. A few simple tweaks to the exposition of the final events will go a long way to resolving a the grey areas.

With a couple of cutscenes or a 'few simple tweaks' you could just as easily make the indoctrination theory canon as clarify the 'straight' ending. A Sixth Sense style montage of everybody ignoring the kid, drawing attention to the DreamTrees® and then showing Shep being pulled out of the rubble with the battle still raging would do it. It'd take about a minute to spell it out to people, if that's what they wanted to do.

I agree, there is definitely a risk that Bioware will just cause more confusion with the additions they make. It all depends on how they go about it.

@Jimbo said:

With a couple of cutscenes or a 'few simple tweaks' you could just as easily make the indoctrination theory canon as clarify the 'straight' ending. A Sixth Sense style montage of everybody ignoring the kid, drawing attention to the DreamTrees® and then showing Shep being pulled out of the rubble with the battle still raging would do it. It'd take about a minute to spell it out to people, if that's what they wanted to do.

Here I go jumping back into this debate again. I guess I just really love arguing.

They'd have to make some pretty major changes to the way the game is built to explain why you only get the destroy option with low EMS, yet you still see Anderson, TIM, and the Catalyst kid in that ending. What would be the case here? They indoctrinated Shepard a little bit but not enough to break his will? Why would they bother at all?

They'd also probably have to rip out the Normandy crash landing scene since it doesn't make sense that you see it whether you break out of indoctrination or not. If the Normandy scene is shown to Shepard by the Reapers then why does he see it if he chooses to break out of indoctrination? Alternatively, if this scene was Shepard's own dream, why would he be able to see it after turning himself over to full indoctrination (not to mention the fact that he thinks he's already dead in this case)?

Here's why I think the theory is not canon and never will be : there is no way in hell Bioware is going to tell all those who chose the synthesis or control endings that they basically chose the "wrong answer". That will never happen.

That being said, everyone is free to have their own interpretation of any story, no matter what's considered "canon" and what's not. That's why there's still an argument among Blade Runner fans, Ridley Scott said multiple times (Blade Runner spoilers ahead) that Deckard is a replicant, and yet some people won't accept it. And you know what, if they think the movie is better if he's human, more power to them !

I picked Indoctrination because it infuriates LordXavierBritish.

@huntad said:

I picked Indoctrination because it infuriates LordXavierBritish.

Same here, man that dude really hates him some ME3.

@DonChipotle said:

It's kind of adorable how people cling to this theory in desperate hope that the ending is anything more than it is. Personally I subscribe to the Dave Bowman theory. It makes more sense.

@pyrodactyl said:

Seeing that, most people would rather believe that the last 10-20 minutes of the game were all a dream than accept the ending as what it actually is, is hilarious to me.

Also, the human race is doomed. Not in mass effect, just a comment on life in general.

I think it's adorable that some people are close-minded and naive enough to think that there could never be a hidden meaning to the end of a story. It's one thing to take something at face value. I did that with the ending, before I hit the internet.

But when you consider a few things:

A) Taking the ending at face value leaves tons of plot holes, and does not fit within Shepard's character;

B) The "face value" ending makes NO GODDAMNED SENSE;

C) When you apply the Indoctrination Theory, it uses events that PREVIOUSLY HAPPENED IN THE GAME to explain the reason for Shepard's departure from character & fills the plot holes, and;

D) Bioware (Dr. Ray - the CEO) has outright stated that the ending will not be changed, only added to;

The Indoctrination Theory starts to make a lot more sense, if you're not so close-minded.

Sorry for the bump, had this thread open for a couple days now. :)

@Make_Me_Mad said:

It's actually kind of surprising to see the downright delusional lengths people will go to in order to avoid the ending.

Well, I have to say...figuring that the entire ending was some kind of abstract nonsensical indoctrination-inspired dream on the part of Sheppard is far easier than trying to explain how any single scene, situation, or line of dialog in that ending would even be remotely possible within the context of everything that's happened in the series up until the last 10 minutes.

Just wondering when they'll add to the ending, 'cause this wasn't the "real" one. I think the indoctrination theory makes sense, and hope that that's the case. Although, that's still kind of messed up.

@Jimbo said:

@dr_mantas said:

Arguing with Indoctrination "theorists" is like arguing with any conspiracy theorists. Logic and common sense don't matter, because anything can be "explained" away by pointing at sheer coincidence and wishful thinking.

There's no logic or common sense to be found anywhere in that ending though, whichever way you look at it, so bringing those to the table doesn't really help much. If you take the ending at face value then it's completely nonsensical.

It's not the sort of situation where the evidence provided means that the ending can be reasonably interpreted multiple ways. The ending is so absurd and incoherent that considering it as 'straight' actually seems more unreasonable than looking for an alternative explanation. On the other hand, if you do accept the indoctrination theory, then as it stands the franchise -which was consistently billed as a trilogy- currently has no ending. In this case, the ending is so poorly handled that no interpretation really seems to work satisfactorily.

Amen Jimbo. If you ever write the ending to a video game, please let me know so I can play it, because you obviously feel exactly as I do in this case.

The only problem I have with the Indoctrination theory is the only actual piece of evidence that can't be explained is that kid running into that blown up building at the beginning (and I can still kind of explain it).

Everything else is explained.

"How did the Illusive Man get to the Citadel?"

-Well in the Cerberus Base it was stated he was already there. Since he knew that was the catalyst he knew that's where shit would go down eventually.

"How did Anderson get to the room first?"

-He said he was up behind you, and was finding a way to that room. The room has one entrance as a gameplay mechanic and that huge "casm" room had multiple "halls" leading to the doorway.

"But unlimited ammo..."

Yeah Interrupts don't have any affect on your ammo. It's a gameplay mechanic. Who wants to micromanage ammo on one gun in the last minute of a game (especially when its trivial gameplay).

"Yeah what about not being able to shoot the keepers?"

Well you had guns in the first game on the citadel and you couldn't shoot the keepers then either....so I mean why would you be able to now. Why would you want to anyway? It's a game play mechanic.

"Well how come the illusive mans control option was blue and Anderson's was renegade?"

They could just have easily been pointing out the irony of the situation. Anderson's option kills innocent "people" while the illusive man's actually saves everybody.

"Well how come Vega kept asking if you heard that hum? He was indoctrinated too right?"

I mean I could be wrong but wasn't there always a low hum in the shuttle bay from the drive core being located right next to it? If you go to the drive core there's a hum as well.

It goes on and on.......almost everything can be explained away on something concrete in the game.