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demonbear

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Star Ocean 4 impressions and my problem with JRPGs

So, with my brand new xbox 360, i thought i'd give an rpg a go so my friend came over last friday with his copy of Star Ocean 4, said he loved it and I should play it.

And I did. And i think it sucks.

I tried...
I tried...
Right now im 25 hours in and i'm pretty sure I had enough. I might continue but i'll probably just uninstall the whole thing and give the copy back.

I have an issue with JRPGs in general it seems, and every time a brand new one gets out and looks like its gonna be something I might like, i get caught up inthe excitement and forget I don't even like JRPGs, start to play it and then remember, slowly but surely, why I hate those games.

There's so much I wanna write about, where do I start?

I guess I'll start with what matters most to me in an rpg : Characters. Without the story, an RPG just becomes a generic 3rd person action game, It's the reason why we play these things. To see what's going to unfold. Where these characters are headed, what's gonna happen to the hero, or your character. But you can have the best story in the world, if you don't give a f*** about those characters, it's not gonna be a fun experience. You have to relate to those characters.

See, I like north american rpgs ( I say north american because Canada is a part of that continent, believe it or not and we make pretty good rpgs. Oh and btw America is a continent, not a country. Thank you) because in most of them, you get to create your own character. There is a few exceptions here and there but its a clear tendancy. Which brings me to my first problem with JRPGs : Characters

The first distinct difference between JRPGs and NARPGs is that japanese developpers are control freaks. They have to control every thing you do, everything that happens in the story, the way it looks and the themes that THEY want to talk about. on the North american side, its more about choice, especially in the recent years. Most rpgs give you Character customisation and choice. This is what i prefer. I like building my character before entering an RPG. Because this way, i'm going to relate to this guy, it's MY guy. Some might argue that having a fixed main character will allow greater character development and and more solid story compared to " Generic Hero number 22045 " and they are mostly right but Mass Effect proved you can create your character ( Captain Shephard ) and still allow lots of customisation without hurting the story.

Edge Maverick: fancy name, whiny guy.
Edge Maverick: fancy name, whiny guy.
So my problem with JRPGs is that, basically, they give you a main character to play with but you don't get to customize him at all. And in Star Ocean 4's case, its Edge Maverick and he's like all goddamn jrpg main characters : Young, inexperienced, fancy haircut and whiny as hell.

I'm not going to go deep into why I don't like the guy, It mostly comes from what happens in the game so I'll let you play it for yourself but those who did play it know what i'm refering too. And it's something we've all seen over and over again with these characters before.

But that wouldn't be so bad if the rest of the crew is fine right? Well for me, they all sucked. Most of them are tweens anyway. Yet again. That's another thing JRPGs are having a hard time with, mature heroes.

Meh...
Meh...
So far i've seen 9 characters playable in the game and all of them are bugging me to death, some are just kids, others are poorly written. But the main problem is that you've seen this already. There's nothing original to it. It's fan service, its anime-based and its written by a guy who could've wrote a pokemon episode and that's about it.

Aren't japanese developpers checking what's being done elsewhere? I played Star Ocean 4 and all along i though : You know, this could've been a playstation 2 rpg. Except for the graphics ( and on't get me started on the animation in this game, it's horrible. It's basically like watching a Thunderbirds episode. Yes, it's that bad. ), theres nothing next gen about this game. At all.

And this brings me to another issue I have with JRPGS : Combat and character progression.

Anyone who played a Star Ocean game or a "Tales of" game before knows how the combat works. To it's credit, at least it's not turnbased, which is in my iopinion a style of combat of the past, and nothing says PS1 like a turnbased jrpg. But in the end, its number porn. That's all there is to it. You smash a button, bunch of numbers appear on screen that you don't care about and eventually the bad guy dies, you get a not-so-cool " you win" screen with a whole bunch of number thrown at you again, and every now and then you level up.

This is another difference between NARPGs and JRPGs, when you level up, THEY control what goes where. Some like it that way, I don't. In Star Ocean 4, it works like this, after your "you win" screen, it zooms on the character who's leveling up and on the right part of the screen they throw every stat boost he gets from leveling up and that's it. Where's the fun in that? Again, control freak method right here.


So what i'm saying is Star Ocean 4 is a perfect example of why I think japanese developpers are outdated right now. They stopped innovating a long time ago and every JRPG tries to be FF7 all over again. Nothing in these games are next gen, except for the textures, this game could've been a playstation 2 game and that's a problem for me.

I played those. Isn't it time for JRPGs developpers to evolve? To push the genre to it's new level?

Well, Star Ocean isn't tempting anything new so I guess if you liked those, you're going to like this one. For me, i'll be waiting for the first true evolution in the JRPG genre. Problem is, i might way a long, long time. But hey, at least Mass Effect 2 is coming...
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demonbear

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Edited By demonbear

So, with my brand new xbox 360, i thought i'd give an rpg a go so my friend came over last friday with his copy of Star Ocean 4, said he loved it and I should play it.

And I did. And i think it sucks.

I tried...
I tried...
Right now im 25 hours in and i'm pretty sure I had enough. I might continue but i'll probably just uninstall the whole thing and give the copy back.

I have an issue with JRPGs in general it seems, and every time a brand new one gets out and looks like its gonna be something I might like, i get caught up inthe excitement and forget I don't even like JRPGs, start to play it and then remember, slowly but surely, why I hate those games.

There's so much I wanna write about, where do I start?

I guess I'll start with what matters most to me in an rpg : Characters. Without the story, an RPG just becomes a generic 3rd person action game, It's the reason why we play these things. To see what's going to unfold. Where these characters are headed, what's gonna happen to the hero, or your character. But you can have the best story in the world, if you don't give a f*** about those characters, it's not gonna be a fun experience. You have to relate to those characters.

See, I like north american rpgs ( I say north american because Canada is a part of that continent, believe it or not and we make pretty good rpgs. Oh and btw America is a continent, not a country. Thank you) because in most of them, you get to create your own character. There is a few exceptions here and there but its a clear tendancy. Which brings me to my first problem with JRPGs : Characters

The first distinct difference between JRPGs and NARPGs is that japanese developpers are control freaks. They have to control every thing you do, everything that happens in the story, the way it looks and the themes that THEY want to talk about. on the North american side, its more about choice, especially in the recent years. Most rpgs give you Character customisation and choice. This is what i prefer. I like building my character before entering an RPG. Because this way, i'm going to relate to this guy, it's MY guy. Some might argue that having a fixed main character will allow greater character development and and more solid story compared to " Generic Hero number 22045 " and they are mostly right but Mass Effect proved you can create your character ( Captain Shephard ) and still allow lots of customisation without hurting the story.

Edge Maverick: fancy name, whiny guy.
Edge Maverick: fancy name, whiny guy.
So my problem with JRPGs is that, basically, they give you a main character to play with but you don't get to customize him at all. And in Star Ocean 4's case, its Edge Maverick and he's like all goddamn jrpg main characters : Young, inexperienced, fancy haircut and whiny as hell.

I'm not going to go deep into why I don't like the guy, It mostly comes from what happens in the game so I'll let you play it for yourself but those who did play it know what i'm refering too. And it's something we've all seen over and over again with these characters before.

But that wouldn't be so bad if the rest of the crew is fine right? Well for me, they all sucked. Most of them are tweens anyway. Yet again. That's another thing JRPGs are having a hard time with, mature heroes.

Meh...
Meh...
So far i've seen 9 characters playable in the game and all of them are bugging me to death, some are just kids, others are poorly written. But the main problem is that you've seen this already. There's nothing original to it. It's fan service, its anime-based and its written by a guy who could've wrote a pokemon episode and that's about it.

Aren't japanese developpers checking what's being done elsewhere? I played Star Ocean 4 and all along i though : You know, this could've been a playstation 2 rpg. Except for the graphics ( and on't get me started on the animation in this game, it's horrible. It's basically like watching a Thunderbirds episode. Yes, it's that bad. ), theres nothing next gen about this game. At all.

And this brings me to another issue I have with JRPGS : Combat and character progression.

Anyone who played a Star Ocean game or a "Tales of" game before knows how the combat works. To it's credit, at least it's not turnbased, which is in my iopinion a style of combat of the past, and nothing says PS1 like a turnbased jrpg. But in the end, its number porn. That's all there is to it. You smash a button, bunch of numbers appear on screen that you don't care about and eventually the bad guy dies, you get a not-so-cool " you win" screen with a whole bunch of number thrown at you again, and every now and then you level up.

This is another difference between NARPGs and JRPGs, when you level up, THEY control what goes where. Some like it that way, I don't. In Star Ocean 4, it works like this, after your "you win" screen, it zooms on the character who's leveling up and on the right part of the screen they throw every stat boost he gets from leveling up and that's it. Where's the fun in that? Again, control freak method right here.


So what i'm saying is Star Ocean 4 is a perfect example of why I think japanese developpers are outdated right now. They stopped innovating a long time ago and every JRPG tries to be FF7 all over again. Nothing in these games are next gen, except for the textures, this game could've been a playstation 2 game and that's a problem for me.

I played those. Isn't it time for JRPGs developpers to evolve? To push the genre to it's new level?

Well, Star Ocean isn't tempting anything new so I guess if you liked those, you're going to like this one. For me, i'll be waiting for the first true evolution in the JRPG genre. Problem is, i might way a long, long time. But hey, at least Mass Effect 2 is coming...
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atejas

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Edited By atejas

Star Ocean IV is a bad example of a jRPG in terms of characters and stuff.


And Dragon Age is going to be better than ME2.

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Endogene

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Edited By Endogene
atejas said:
"Star Ocean IV is a bad example of a jRPG in terms of characters and stuff.
Indeed, also in terms of combat system. Turn based combat allows much more tactical fights. A better example of a modern "classic" JRPG would be Suikoden Tiekris for the Nintendo DS. JRPG are like regular books while WRPG's are more like a book with tons of white pages where the foreword say "do whatever you like on these pages". Really you can't compare them. I think you just picked the wrong game here.
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demonbear

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Edited By demonbear

@ atejas : These a both Bioware games,I expect them both to be awesome!

@Endogene  : See, that's the kind of mentality i'm going against here. Why are we expecting innovation out of every dungeon crawler or every advanture game coming out and not JRPGs, we're always saying that its just the way they are made. Well i'm expecting better. Gaming has changed since FF7 and japanese developpers should, im my opinion, try to innovate more and start taking risks a bit more.

Oh and the "regular books" are very poorly written btw. Star Ocean is horrible from what i could see. Full of clichés and mysoginistic in typical japanese fashion.

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KingOfIceland

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Edited By KingOfIceland

I completely agree with your thoughts on this matter, especially in regards to the character design and how little control you have over shaping your character.

And yes, both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are going to be the bomb-dizzle.

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demonbear

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Edited By demonbear

I thought about it today and I think i'd even say the term JRPG is incorrect. You dont assume the role of anything. Or at least if you do, then Gears of war is an RPG as well.

So I suggest we call them Interactive Anime Stories from now on. Who's with me?

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delta_ass

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Edited By delta_ass
demonbear said:
Oh and btw America is a continent, not a country. Thank you
Since Canada is part of the continent of America, does this mean we can call Canadians Americans?

Yea, that's what I thought.
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SmugDarkLoser

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Edited By SmugDarkLoser

demonbear said:

"I thought about it today and I think i'd even say the term JRPG is incorrect. You dont assume the role of anything. Or at least if you do, then Gears of war is an RPG as well.

So I suggest we call them Interactive Anime Stories from now on. Who's with me?"

You obviously haven't noticed, but there's just about 2 games that have ever let you have a significant impact on the story, zero where major things straight up change and have an actual impact.  Take fallout for example, you either blow it up or don't.  Cool, evil vs. good.  Very straightforward.  So yea, what's the difference?  All it does is end some quest lines.   It's not like other people talk about it or has an effect other than that


As far as one of the OPs comments about how skills get distributed I must say, you haven't played many jrpgs, because there are quite a few that do.

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vidiot

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Edited By vidiot
demonbear said:
"I thought about it today and I think i'd even say the term JRPG is incorrect. You dont assume the role of anything. Or at least if you do, then Gears of war is an RPG as well.

So I suggest we call them Interactive Anime Stories from now on. Who's with me?"
This had been debated to death, short answer: No.
The game is still built upon stats, acquiring loot, and leveling up your character. Regardless of your personal preference, regarding having the illusion of control over the narrative, which is BTW entirely understandable: It's still an RPG.
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Illmatic

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Agh, this post kills me because it seems your tendency towards JRPG's seem to be the same as mine and Star Ocean looks to be the next game coming up on my GameFly Game Que. I desperately want to get into them but as the hours turn, I find that this particular entry isn't for me. It happened with Final Fantasy 12 and its incessant grinding, it happened with Lost Odyssey and the characters who grinded my nerves everytime their mouths opened, and now I'm worried it may happen with this game I was anticipating to keep me busy over the coming 2 week break after my college finals after reading your entry. Unfortunately, my admittedly naive hope is that I'll learn to love this one. That this game will be the one that'll get me into the genre. The last RPG I enjoyed was Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced and that was years ago. I'm still desperately clutching the hope that I'll enjoy this game, though I secretly doubt it.

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demonbear

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Edited By demonbear

@Vidiot : Yeah i know, i don't think i'm going to change mentalities or anything. It's just a point i'd like to make. For me, rpgs are about choice. And JRPGs are offering next to none. So why do you keep playing them you say? Because i'm stupid.

@Illmatic : Well there's only one way to find out, but i can say this for sure : Star Ocean 4 isn't doing anything new for a JRPG. If you had issues with Lost Odyssey and their characters, I fear this game won't do much for you. And for the record, I played the hell outta FFT advance. Great game. The 2nd one didn't get me exited as much. Seems unbalanced and tougher. I mentionned it already to many people but if you're looking for a great rpg, try Mass Effect if you haven't already.

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demonbear

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Edited By demonbear
SmugDarkLoser said:
"

You obviously haven't noticed, but there's just about 2 games that have ever let you have a significant impact on the story, zero where major things straight up change and have an actual impact.  Take fallout for example, you either blow it up or don't.  Cool, evil vs. good.  Very straightforward.  So yea, what's the difference?  All it does is end some quest lines.   It's not like other people talk about it or has an effect other than that


As far as one of the OPs comments about how skills get distributed I must say, you haven't played many jrpgs, because there are quite a few that do.

"
Well you're right, there is a few  handful of games who gives you such a choice in game, and this idea is still making its way from game to game.


Example : KOTOR1 and 2 were all about black and white choices, so yes it's choice but a bit dumb down the line. Now if you look at The Witcher or Mass Effect, those choices were more like shades of grey. Or even GTA4 for example. I know its not an rpg but there are moments in this game where you DO make a choice and it affects some elements of the game and there's a pretty nice final choice to make as well. For a game that's not even trying to be an RPG, there were moments where i had to put the controller down and think about what I wanted to do.

and THATS role playing. It's not watching a story some japanese guy wants to tell me with cyber puppets, it'a about playing a role and making choices through this role. At least that's how I like my rpgs.
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SmugDarkLoser

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Edited By SmugDarkLoser
demonbear said:
"SmugDarkLoser said:
"

You obviously haven't noticed, but there's just about 2 games that have ever let you have a significant impact on the story, zero where major things straight up change and have an actual impact.  Take fallout for example, you either blow it up or don't.  Cool, evil vs. good.  Very straightforward.  So yea, what's the difference?  All it does is end some quest lines.   It's not like other people talk about it or has an effect other than that


As far as one of the OPs comments about how skills get distributed I must say, you haven't played many jrpgs, because there are quite a few that do.

"
Well you're right, there is a few  handful of games who gives you such a choice in game, and this idea is still making its way from game to game.Example : KOTOR1 and 2 were all about black and white choices, so yes it's choice but a bit dumb down the line. Now if you look at The Witcher or Mass Effect, those choices were more like shades of grey. Or even GTA4 for example. I know its not an rpg but there are moments in this game where you DO make a choice and it affects some elements of the game and there's a pretty nice final choice to make as well. For a game that's not even trying to be an RPG, there were moments where i had to put the controller down and think about what I wanted to do.and THATS role playing. It's not watching a story some japanese guy wants to tell me with cyber puppets, it'a about playing a role and making choices through this role. At least that's how I like my rpgs."
So you must not like rpgs in general, because, well, maybe it's because you only saw one side of it, but most choices will give you the same outcome with a red face or white face, if you get what i mean.  Lots of rpgs are killed once you play them again and realize what the other option was.  It's more of an illusion.  hell, just play the intro scene of ME twice and choose different background--it's how the rest is.  It's essentially fill in the blanks with your choices.

Anyway, someone mentioned hating the characters of Lost Odyssey, I must say why?  They were very interesting characters and all had a purpose.  All were voiced extremely well and the facial animation was top notch.  I'm not just talking about the fact that their faces didn't seem like plastic as in some games but rather it revealed a story in a way.  Much was told indirectly with this.

As for Star Ocean, I enjoyedit, but it wasn't particularly good.  Some unique things like the end dungeon, but the story and universe lore sort of sucked.  I thought they had it starting when they hit earth (which was an awesome part) and the mothership, but then they basically backed out and quit that story.
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REDRUN

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Edited By REDRUN

Star Ocean was a bad example of JRPG.  I hated the characters and clumsy mechanics. You should of done "Lost Odyssey" if you wanted a beautiful JRPG on your Xbox 360.

Lately, I have been playing a bunch of PS2 JRPG i did not had time to play in the past. So far I am 24 hours in Final Fantasy XII and hooked. The combat system is similar to the FF XI Online battle mechanics, but adds a gambit system. The Gambit system are upgrades where you can script tedious task like an A.I. or bot. This come in handy when you create a well written gambit script, so you can focus on more important things. I also found you can leave the room in a certain stage and let your Gambits clear each battle as they constantly spawn and attack you in small hordes. You can have the AI do the all grinding while you are away having lunch or away for a short time.

I suggest you play some Oblivion, LO or Blue Dragon if you are looking for high fantasy type RPGs on the 360 console, you may find them on the bargain shelf right about now.

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Edited By maxszy

Though I would agree in a lot ways, don't discount all JRPGs on the 360.

I would highly recommend you try Lost Odyssey. It is epic in scope, story, characters, loss, pain, presentation, musical scores etc. Sure, the gameplay of JRPGs is still very much present but as someone who doesn't really enjoy that type of gameplay that much, LO was a masterpiece. The story (which you yourself claim is why we play RPGs and I would agree) is there. Its worth it to play it. And the music just makes it so much better.

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Illmatic

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demonbear said:
"@Vidiot : Yeah i know, i don't think i'm going to change mentalities or anything. It's just a point i'd like to make. For me, rpgs are about choice. And JRPGs are offering next to none. So why do you keep playing them you say? Because i'm stupid.@Illmatic : Well there's only one way to find out, but i can say this for sure : Star Ocean 4 isn't doing anything new for a JRPG. If you had issues with Lost Odyssey and their characters, I fear this game won't do much for you. And for the record, I played the hell outta FFT advance. Great game. The 2nd one didn't get me exited as much. Seems unbalanced and tougher. I mentionned it already to many people but if you're looking for a great rpg, try Mass Effect if you haven't already."
Oh when I said Tactics was the last RPG I had played, I meant JRPGs in particular. I've played a few Western RPGs including KOTOR 1, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and yes Mass Effect. Thing is though, it wasn't just the whole customization of character that was enjoyable but it was the story and/or world that these games took place in and the battle systems that also hooked me in which is why I continue to try out different JRPG's. When they click, they can be some of the most enjoyable gaming experiences out there.
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REDRUN

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Edited By REDRUN

I forgot to mention, don't fall for the "Eternal Sonata is a great game". If you dislike Star Ocean, then you may not like Eternal Sonata. Beautiful scoring, graphics, good voice over, but the story and gameplay Its mediocre at best.  Not a recommend.

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Illmatic

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SmugDarkLoser said:
"Anyway, someone mentioned hating the characters of Lost Odyssey, I must say why?  They were very interesting characters and all had a purpose.  All were voiced extremely well and the facial animation was top notch.  I'm not just talking about the fact that their faces didn't seem like plastic as in some games but rather it revealed a story in a way.  Much was told indirectly with this. "
Kaim and Jansen made up the entirety of characters that I genuinely enjoyed while the remaining characters I either didn't care for or actively detested, the children and the Queen, Ming, especially come to mind. Yes they had purpose, but simply having a purpose doesn't lead to enjoyment of the characters and the following of their plot. If their purpose doesn't interest me then they might as well have no purpose at all. The voices were admittedly well done for the most part, but yet again the children come to mind who probably hit the tone they were aiming for but it was a tone and delivery I couldn't stand.

I can recall the instant I realized I probably wouldn't be finishing the game and that was when the children had ran off onto a train and you are tasked with chasing after them. I couln't bring myself to care or muster the motivation to keep going. I no longer cared who Kaim, Ming, Sarah, Seth, and the antagonist were. i no longer cared for the level cap that would be forced upon you during each "level." I understand it helped you focus on strategy more than brute strength and I understand I already expressed my disdain for the grinding still present in FF XII but that was due to a battle system that didn't meet my particular tastes. If there is one thing I will admit to adoring about Lost Odyssey, it was the battle system. I may be part of a select few who is not tired of turn-based battling and appreciates the different approach to confrontations it brings. However, when I suddendly ceased to be rewarded for my battles while I had reached the level cap only halfway through a dungeon, it turned me off. My displeasure was so severe I couldn't bring myself to finish the game though I was already on the fourth disc. I had pushed on for hours trying to ignore the fact I no longer was getting any enjoyment for the game and I had reached my breaking point.
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demonbear

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Edited By demonbear

I'm on the fence on two jrpgs right now : Tales of Vesperia and Lost Odyssey. Odyssey is 30$ on amazon.ca, i might pick it up.

@Smugdarklooser : I liked the Earth part as well, but after that it became tedious, with Edge whining all the time and faize crying too. Felt like an emo album at one point. And then you turn around to those other characters and they all felt flat. I might regive it a shot and attempt to finish it at least.

@REDRUN : I played oblivion already, it's why i bought my first xbox back a couple years ago. Since then I sold it but there's that GOTY edition running around for 30$ or so.... it's tempting to go back. I liked the story.