@bacon: Ok, for some reason you assume anyone defending her in this situation hasn't defended these other people. Not sure why you think that but have fun. The thing that's interesting to me is you don't seem too interested in defending Price here. I'm assuming based on you bringing up these similar cases multiple times in this thread that you think they shouldn't have been fired? For someone crying for consistency, this seemed interesting to me but I could be wrong and you can go ahead and correct me.
I'm sorry that her naughty language got under your skin but I would be careful using "acerbic asshole" I wouldn't want you to get fired.
@lawgiver: I think Dan learned from the Dream Daddy debacle that there's no reasoning with the people around him about these kinds of things.
I noticed it to and that situation immediately came to mind. It was noticeable that Abby was fired up as soon as Arenanet was brought up and understandably so, but Vinny ever the deft hand calmed everyone down right at the start.
@fatalbanana: the precident extends beyond games. Look at the amount of talking heads or comedians that lose their jobs when they say something that offends a certain group of people. Online campaigns sprout up and go after sponsors and advertisers in an attempt to get people fired, and many of these groups are the same people that are now upset the same tactics were used to get a female game dev fired.
I don't like it, but this is the route our society has chosen to go in when words are said that upset a certain segment of people. Can't be upset about it now just because it's now working against someone you personally don't think is deserving of being fired.
How about, let's pretend I accept your premise, I don't think any of them should have been fired? What is this defeatest BS that says because a bunch of shitty things happens that means we should stop getting upset about it? Do you actually have an argument or are you going to strawman an entire side of this argument using the logic "if we can't beat em' join 'em"... Not interested.
Something tells me you are actively not trying to see the nuance in this conversation.
@soggybobcat: I know and agree, which is why I'm not complaining about the arenanet firings, because we've all agreed that what you say has consequences, so being an unreasonable asshole to a customer on Twitter can get you fired. This is the precident that was set with the Orth and Olin firings, so why are GB and everyone upset about it now?
Those firings happened 3/4 years ago it's obvious things have changed since then. Also, two examples of something happening is not a "precedent".
She was fired because of the backlash not because of what she said. She has said things like it in the past without a peep. This time just happened to catch fire. The reason this is being talked about so much has more to do with how ArenaNet reacted towards a mob of angry twitter kids crying that she should get fired because the mean lady was rude. I don't care about what she said I don't know why it makes people angry but apparently, she hit a nerve with some people. Do I think she handled the situation well? no. Is it a fireable offense? not even close but that's not the point.
ArenaNet kowtowing to these people sets a gross example on how these things should be dealt with. Their response saying "As a company, we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you" solidifies that for me. The customer is not always right, and they shouldn't have a say in who and who doesn't work at the company. Emboldening these people just ensures there will be more incidents like this in the future. If they don't like something someone else said it's ok to harass them and/or their employers till they are fired. That's, why this is an issue that needs to be talked about.
By the way, the Orth and Olin firings though there is nuance there that I'm not willing to go into they also shouldn't have been fired all of these things can be true. Not sure why it is important here but there you go.
If you believe ArenaNet, they already made their decision before the mob became... well, a mob.
Don't believe em if you want. It's certainly plausible that they did in fact cave to the fervour and only said that to cover their ass. It's also plausible that the people who (not referring to you here) see this as kowtowing to nasty hate-filled gamerz really really want that to be true, so fuck anything to the contrary.
Also! It's possible they caved to the anger from their community specifically, and not the harassers. It's pretty worthwhile distinguishing between the two.
Any fucking outcome would've emboldened the harassers though, one way or another, fired or not fired. The idea that this situation means they could now increasingly succeed in getting devs fired however, is some grade-A fear-mongering. There was an actual situation here that warranted some kind of diciplinary response in the eyes of ArenaNet.
Even then, it was something of an outlier, and you'd expect other companies to have their own hypotheticals for this kind of situation. Like, what fuckin doomsday scenario do people seriously envision that this sets such an example for, such that all of a sudden companies are gonna start firing devs left and right now. Fuckin, come on.
Did I say companies were going to start firing devs left and right? No, I said because this group of people now know their tactic works they are going to use it more now. More harassing, more companies flooded with "fire this person" I think that's obvious. It wasn't my point but if you think this scenario won't happen again at any other company you have more faith in this industry than I do.
Your other plausibilities don't interest me much because it isn't that complicated. There's shitty discourse surrounding this. That's easily seen and verifiable. Maybe these people crying "hate-filled gamerz" don't want something to be true as much as they are tired explaining something obvious.
@soggybobcat: I know and agree, which is why I'm not complaining about the arenanet firings, because we've all agreed that what you say has consequences, so being an unreasonable asshole to a customer on Twitter can get you fired. This is the precident that was set with the Orth and Olin firings, so why are GB and everyone upset about it now?
Those firings happened 3/4 years ago it's obvious things have changed since then. Also, two examples of something happening is not a "precedent".
She was fired because of the backlash not because of what she said. She has said things like it in the past without a peep. This time just happened to catch fire. The reason this is being talked about so much has more to do with how ArenaNet reacted towards a mob of angry twitter kids crying that she should get fired because the mean lady was rude. I don't care about what she said I don't know why it makes people angry but apparently, she hit a nerve with some people. Do I think she handled the situation well? no. Is it a fireable offense? not even close but that's not the point.
ArenaNet kowtowing to these people sets a gross example on how these things should be dealt with. Their response saying "As a company, we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you" solidifies that for me. The customer is not always right, and they shouldn't have a say in who and who doesn't work at the company. Emboldening these people just ensures there will be more incidents like this in the future. If they don't like something someone else said it's ok to harass them and/or their employers till they are fired. That's why this is an issue that needs to be talked about.
By the way, the Orth and Olin firings though there is nuance there that I'm not willing to go into they also shouldn't have been fired all of these things can be true. Not sure why it is important here but there you go.
@wesleywyndam: I'm not saying there shouldn't have been some sort of consequences but firing is such a step beyond what I consider to be rational action. I don't want to focus too much on the actual incident because I truly don't think that's why she was fired and I think focusing on that misses the point.
Right, arbitration is not easy and can be fairly costly my point was that at least is an option. Whether or not it's worth it for her, in this case, I don't know. Them bringing it up on the podcast was to say in this context some worker protection would be better than none.
I don't get this argument around empathy. I can empathize with how frustrating it is when people tell you how to do your job, I can empathize with the desire to lash out against people. I can empathize with losing a job.
I cannot sympathize with her response at all. Every single job I ever had, if I lashed out like that I would lose that job or be on very thin ice. Rightly so I think. Escalation is not the right response in such situations, either professionally or from a point of decency.
That's how I feel.
They started talking about unions and I chuckled. I've been a due paying worker in one of the countries largest unions (1.4 million workers) for 15 years. I can guarantee you that I am getting fired if I call a customer a "rando asshat" or talk down to them. And there is no way I'm winning arbitration. I'm allowed to hang up the phone, walk away, or pass the customer off to a manager if they are being rude, vulgar, or otherwise abusive. Unions aren't a shield from ever facing punishment or being fired.
But would you be fired if you said the same thing to a customer on Twitter outside of company time? I think you're missing the point here about unions. You're right they aren't meant to protect you from things that would get you fired they are there to ensure the worker has certain protections and argue on your behalf in situations where undue firing is on the table. Whether or not you agree that she should have been fired, if there was a union there would at least be a conversation.
Boy... leave it Shaq Fu to bring out the "why is everyone so sensitive?" crowd. I mean, how dare someone criticize jokes made in poor taste. Stay classy internet.
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