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FlyingOx

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#1  Edited By FlyingOx

I think this topic is interesting and important, so I'll give a serious reply.

First, we have to understand that Persona 4 approaches things from a different angle. It comes from an East Asian culture and has a lot of Jungian influence. Jung himself was influenced alot by Asian culture, and often mentioned finding balance in the inner psyche (conscious/subconscious) and between inner and outer (individual/environment/society). There's different assumptions made than Western identity politics.

Instead of just making sure we have a token minority, Persona 4 asks something more fundamental - Why should we even need to hide who we are? Why is acceptance so difficult? Why should different truths be so hard to face? The game's themes focuses on "Reaching out to the truth", and "the more you put in, the more you get out". To reach that balance that Jung talks about, people want to accept themselves for who they are, and they want to know they're not alone. But true acceptance requires understanding (truth), and understanding requires real time and effort. It's all the more difficult when jackasses around prefer to spread lies or half-truths.

Kanji as a child was immediately misunderstood and rejected because he's a guy with girly interests. Naoto's colleagues didn't even want to know her. Both were just children when they were rejected by people who had the same interests. Their gender identities and backstories are a unique perspective on how people face the truth - it helps to broaden the human experience, not just say we have a minority on board. The crap they face won't disappear so long as we treat them as categories and not unique, multidimensional people.

It sucks, but in the end, they will have to be the force of change they wish to see. Of course, they can't do it alone, and Persona 4 makes that clear by having the player character act as a very, very good listener and enabler. The Hero listens, understands and enables them to face themselves. Each Social Link character becomes stronger for it, and positive effects ripple outward.

Even NPCs like Hanako, Kashiwagi and even Morooka show surprising sides to them if you look around enough. Everyone has more than one side to them. Check out the Shiroku store at night.

It sounds kind of cheesy, but all this "Friendship power" works in Persona 4 because it doesn't for an instant give the illusion that any of this is easy. As Naoto says, "Failing to understand, and failing to listen, are two entirely different things."

Anyways, to reply to the TC's topic - no, Kanji and Naoto's stories weren't handled terribly. Kanji's still trying to figure out his sexual orientation. But he's accepted that he can be a "man" with "feminine" interests, and is now trying to get society to accept the same. And that entails not assuming he's gay just because he likes dolls and playing house. Naoto has accepted that having childlike enthusiasm and being female isn't exclusive with being a detective (which she assumed was only rugged, adult males). And now she's trying to get society to accept that, too. They've made peace with their subconscious selves, and now they're working to find peace with society. This is only problematic if we assume a narrow vision of diversity.

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FlyingOx

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#2  Edited By FlyingOx

Well, I'd be kinda worried about Atlus turning into a milking machine, but since P4 came at the end of the PS2's lifetime, and it being my favorite game, I guess I can forgive em. Being released after the anime means it'll obviously reach more ears than P4's first release - I remember hearing from quite a few rpg fans that they've never even heard of the game.
 
I'm a little wary of the anime personally, but P4G is something I'm looking forward to. Not sure I like Marie's design though - it doesn't feel like it fits in with the other characters. Oh well, still too soon to say.
 
@WatanabeKazuma: Jackpot!

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#3  Edited By FlyingOx

Like Turambar, I meant to reply to this a long time ago. 
I really like the post that Matt wrote, and agree that Kanji's case is more about gender than sexuality. Matt's interpretation of what's shown on TV is mistaken, but that's already covered by others. 
Ironically, "wanting" Kanji to be gay is pretty much entirely against the main themes of P4: truth and acceptance. "Wanting" Kanji to be gay is to not accept him for who he really is; it's looking for a truth we want rather than a truth as it is.
 
Taking Kanji's case a step further, we could say that Kanji isn't so much about gender as much as stereotyping in general. I mean, it's pretty easy to call someone a weeaboo, or nerd, goth, emo, jock, or any other name simply because that person has certain interests or likes (and I'm being pretty tame with the names here). In the true ending, Izanami said, "Man struggles to understand one another. You can only truly know a finite number of people, but humans disregard this and try to know more people than possible". Stereotyping, though, makes life easier, since it gives us a convenient label for people we are unable to, or simply don't want to, know better. 
 
So when people see Kanji as a young boy have 'girly' interests, it's pretty easy to write him off as gay and leave it at that. After all, what else could he be, right? No 'normal' boy has an interest in things like that. Since he doesn't fit in, giving him a convenient label makes it possible to not want to know him any better. And that's why the building of social links is so important in this game (or in real life for that matter) - building an intimate relationship with someone runs parallel with truth and acceptance.

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#4  Edited By FlyingOx

I could name a dozen story plots, anime or otherwise, that are cliche, stereotyped, or flat out bizarre, but succeed thanks to excellent storytelling, characters and attention to detail. P4 is one of them.

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#5  Edited By FlyingOx

 @Turambar said:

" Death.  Find me another game that actually discusses alzheimer.  "

  Wait... she had alzheimer's? Her memory seemed fine to me, although maybe mine's not.
 
Although I like most of the S. Links, I voted for Margaret (Empress) for showing her silly side, and for that endgame kiss :P Even if it wasn't exactly my favorite.
 
I think the Temperance (Step-mom) needs an honorable mention for covering an issue rarely discussed in video games.
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#6  Edited By FlyingOx
In order: Chie, Naoto (close second), Yukiko, then Rise. 
I would've put Rise above Yukiko, except the romance part of her SLink was pretty poor.
 
@trophyhunter said:
" I don't understand the love for chie at all  unless it's people picking her because jeff picked her "
 
I don't know about others, but I prefer tomboys myself. Chie earns extra points for being a martial arts nut like myself. If anything, I don't understand the why the general fandom thinks ChiexYosuke makes a good couple. Unless they think 'good' couples generally include groin kicks over broken dvds.
 
As much as I love Chie, I'm a little surprised she's ahead on the poll myself. It's still pretty evenly distributed, though...
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#7  Edited By FlyingOx

The only SMT games I've played so far are Persona 4 and Devil Summoner 2. Loved P4, Summoner 2 was fun but not amazing. Strange Journey and Devil Survivor are next on my list: anyone recommend one over the other?