@LiquidPrince:

I wasn't referring to anybody. I was making a general observation.

@flindip said:

@bwheeeler said:

I hate these topics, because they get absolutely nowhere. People yell TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and then other people yell YOU'RE RIDICULOUS FOR THINKING TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and that repeats for like 400 posts because everyone has to say their variation of one or the other.

Cool!

Its because most people, in any contested subject matter, want validation. Not discourse(because that requires thinking, and compromise).

Welcome to the planet Earth.

If you're referring to me, I didn't post this for validation. Almost nothing said in this thread could sway my opinion on the matter, unless someone happened to make a super salient point that I had never thought about. That hasn't really been the case so far. It was more of a way for me to vent. Also the discussion that Tomb Raider was sexist was far outweighing the argument that it wasn't, so I thought to throw my two cents in.

Hey guys and gals, I just play video games. I dunno anything!

@flindip said:

@bwheeeler said:

I hate these topics, because they get absolutely nowhere. People yell TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and then other people yell YOU'RE RIDICULOUS FOR THINKING TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and that repeats for like 400 posts because everyone has to say their variation of one or the other.

Cool!

Its because most people, in any contested subject matter, want validation. Not discourse(because that requires thinking, and compromise).

Welcome to the planet Earth.

Yeah Jerk!

@bwheeeler said:

I hate these topics, because they get absolutely nowhere. People yell TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and then other people yell YOU'RE RIDICULOUS FOR THINKING TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and that repeats for like 400 posts because everyone has to say their variation of one or the other.

Cool!

Its because most people, in any contested subject matter, want validation. Not discourse(because that requires thinking, and compromise).

Welcome to the planet Earth.

I hate these topics, because they get absolutely nowhere. People yell TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and then other people yell YOU'RE RIDICULOUS FOR THINKING TOMB RAIDER IS KINDA SEXIST! and that repeats for like 400 posts because everyone has to say their variation of one or the other.

Cool!

The reason why no one gives a shit when dudes kill dudes is because of nature. Males are the hunters in our species and breaking down into tears every time another guy died would've spelled the end of humans pretty damn fast. We had to be the high risk-reward automatons that did the shitty, unpleasant and unsafe jobs that have a high mortality rate attached to them. Not giving a fuck about your fellow man is an ancient coping mechanism.

Women, on the other hand, had to be more emotionally diverse, as their job was specifically in dealing with and raising other humans. The reason men also want to protect them is because a woman is more important for reproduction and the continuation of the species. Thus, they were treasured and jealously guarded. Ironically, this also leads into why they were repressed.

Now we've come nearly full circle and the problem is that men are still seen as having inherently less value than women (unless they make a lot of money). See how these things are related?

@Hizang said:

This is all really bad on video games as a whole, I hope this blows over soon.

I have a perverse desire for it to get worse.

@Oldirtybearon: As a Californian I take a great deal of offense to an ignorant inane blanket statements like these, next time you want to try and make a point don't lump a group of people who have almost nothing in common other then a general geographical location, It will help lend weight to an argument and make you sound less like an ignorant jerk.

I've always had beef with this issue because it's a two way street. Sure, women are always portrayed as perfect-bodied women in games, but so are men. Look at Drake, the beastly Marcus Fenix, Male Shepard, Duke Nukem, Agent 47, etc. etc....they all seem to be super-fit males with sculpted muscles. If we could show male package in the same way games show off womens "assets" I'd bet their junk would swing between the knees. It's the fact that it's a game, it's not supposed to be reality.

Women look the way they look because it's hard to find a male who demands a girl lacking in physical attraction, but has a super cool personality. That same person would probs be more happy if the girl was attractive as well. In the same sense, no guy wants to save the world as a tub of lard that can sprint for only about 2 seconds before needing to stop and breathe. If thats the protagonist, the game better be comical and over-the-top. I'd rather save the world as some boss version of me, with the loaded muscles and manly stature. I'm not offended that women are constantly taught that they should be saved by muscular, brooding, chivalrous men....should I be? It holds me at quite the high standard as well.

As for booth babes, they are being paid to do it, and applied to do that job. They shouldn't become unemployed because people are offended by their physical shape. If people don't like it, then don't go to those booths. The execs will understand and stop hiring them if they don't bring in a crowd, but so long as they do, they will continue to be utilized.

It's the same kind of misunderstanding that goes with professional athletes. If there is a demand for that kind of thing, then there will be a supply. That supply is directly proportional to the demand, so there will be booth babes so long as there are people that want them. If no one wanted them, they wouldn't be there. They get paid because they actually are bringing in people. Speak with your actions, not your words.

@flindip: I hope not, I hope the bombcast is free of this talk, please god. I think GB needs to leave it in the article and talk about games and stuff, this whole controversy has brought nothing but pain and anger on both sides, why keep it going?

2 Live Crew disagrees, and so does my dick... (yeah - there's more to the issue, and to me - but here 'ya go!)

P.S. Ontopic - I'm no Space Marine. I work out on a daily basis, but that doesn't get me there. I don't take offense, and neither should women. Hell - you got like 1 in a 100 chance to be born with a naturally gorgeous body that's up to highest beauty standards, and every mistep you make in your life will leave marks on such perfection.

Just think of the harrowing task of growing a perfect set of boobies! No wonder almost all females are cheats.

@AlexanderSheen said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

At this point..I am tired of it all.

I was already tired of it 3 days ago. And we're still at it.

I concur.

But I suspect that it is going to be addressed on this weeks bomb cast. Then we will have a whole other cycle of arguments.

@Still_I_Cry said:

At this point..I am tired of it all.

I was already tired of it 3 days ago. And we're still at it.

@Sergio said:

@mystakin said:

It doesn't matter what they intended, it matters what the content of the product is. The content of the product places women in sexy, revealing outfits and glorifies violence. No one sits in front of a piece of media and says "Wow, sex and violence... I'm going to associate those now." It's a subconscious thing and there's been plenty of studies linking this kind of imagery to beliefs in lesser punishment for rapes. I described why I believe people would call the trailer a rape fantasy, but it's only a guess. You certainly don't have to agree that it is what they say it is, but I do believe that the trailer is harmful for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. I wouldn't have even brought it up as a rape fantasy if someone else had not asked about it.

This is like saying violence in games are subconsciously training our children to be killers. Who knew Jack Thompson was right after all? He had studies linking the two; and there were studies disproving it too.

Ummm, no it's not. My statement is based in controlled experiments and data, and claims that violence turns children into killers is based in ignorance and misunderstandings. Violence can have negative effects on consumers, but turning them into killers is not one of those effects. Coincidentally enough, one of those theories is Moral Panic Theory which describes Thompson's agenda to a T.

@JasonR86 said:

Gender roles and social norms are huge issues and, unfortunately, the most vocal on the subjects are often those who are the most rigid, most careless, and least reasonable.

And people screaming that there are no issues to discuss have their head buried in the sand. It's pretty appalling how many people simple can't or won't see that some things are very real, and just because they don't apply to you doesn't make them any less real. Thanks for having some common sense. (this is not a sarcastic reply)

@Milkman said:

@algertman

@Milkman said:

The fact that women were getting hurt was not the issue that people took with Tomb Raider or Hitnan, like at all.

Yes, it is. If you replaced to women with men then nobody would care. So it has everything to do with them being women.

No. The controversy with Tomb Raider stemmed for the producers comments that effectively said "you're going to want to protect Lara because she's a girl." And the Hitman "controversy" (which wasn't really controversy at all) stemmed from the trailer just being dumb pandering bullshit that doesn't represent the product at all.

That came later, there was already mumblings about Tomb Raider being misogynistic before those comments were made.

@mystakin said:

It doesn't matter what they intended, it matters what the content of the product is. The content of the product places women in sexy, revealing outfits and glorifies violence. No one sits in front of a piece of media and says "Wow, sex and violence... I'm going to associate those now." It's a subconscious thing and there's been plenty of studies linking this kind of imagery to beliefs in lesser punishment for rapes. I described why I believe people would call the trailer a rape fantasy, but it's only a guess. You certainly don't have to agree that it is what they say it is, but I do believe that the trailer is harmful for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. I wouldn't have even brought it up as a rape fantasy if someone else had not asked about it.

This is like saying violence in games are subconsciously training our children to be killers. Who knew Jack Thompson was right after all? He had studies linking the two; and there were studies disproving it too.

At this point..I am tired of it all.

@Anwar said:

I hope everybody who paid that lady to talk about important issues like feminism is aware what kind of quality they'll eventually get.

First time I've watched something of her's. Taking the leap of the ad in the subway as somehow promoting groping women makes me think that her tropes vs video game series is going to be worthless, masturbatory drivel that tries to serve her agenda. She may make one or two good points, but it'll get lost in the noise of her own making.

@Milkman said:

The fact that women were getting hurt was not the issue that people took with Tomb Raider or Hitnan, like at all.

Yes, it is. If you replaced to women with men then nobody would care. So it has everything to do with them being women.

@Milkman said:

The fact that women were getting hurt was not the issue that people took with Tomb Raider or Hitnan, like at all.

Yes, it is. If you replaced to women with men then nobody would care. So it has everything to do with them being women.

The fact that women were getting hurt was not the issue that people took with Tomb Raider or Hitnan, like at all.

As pointed out by Rebel FM, often times those cheering at those moments are the guys who made the game who are rightly proud of what they've accomplished and is being presented and often times it is also marketing people who "paid" fans to come into the presentation and will cheer at anything. I can't blame anyone who has worked hard on a demo and seen it pulled off in exactly the way they imagined it live and on stage from cheering. The other is a bit more dubious.

Does this need to be fixed? The way to do that is to simply limit the size of the audience to keep only those attendees to keep only "outsiders" and press in the seats but who wants to show they have a much smaller audience who is much less "cheerful"?

@algertman said:

@Humanity said:

@Anwar: I just don't understand how being a single mother is a PRO for a feminist.

So she can indoctrinate her child without any type of father figure around.

Single moms, best thing since sliced bread. Good for you, good for her, good for the child, and great for the prison system!!

@Humanity said:

@Anwar: I just don't understand how being a single mother is a PRO for a feminist.

So she can indoctrinate her child without any type of father figure around.

I think a great comparison is everyone cheering loudly at the guy getting his face blown off during The Last of Us demo(whether that was for the demo or the shotgun blast is debatable). If that was a woman, people would've went ballistic. I understand why people don't like violence against women, as I agree there is definitely something disturbing about it, but the fact that it gets totally singled out while countless dudes get murdered in infinitely more horrendous ways without anyone batting an eye seems to set back this entire equality movement about seven hundred paces.

@Anwar: I just don't understand how being a single mother is a PRO for a feminist. No pro's that it's a female character thats beating up demons from hell and the like to oblivion, standing as an equal and more with men and supernatural forces alike. No, it's that she's a single mother and ironically not to SPOIL too much here but if you played the game you know that she isn't even that.

@Jimbo: OP never said anything about "leaving his boys club alone".

Funny how many people defending the OP apparently didn't even read it. Not surprising of course, but funny. Leave my boys' club alone, wahhh :'(

@Dagbiker said:

I like how all the Female posters on this board aren't having nearly as bad a reaction to this stuff as the Male posters. I think its interesting.

@tourgen said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

You need to remember where all of this angst is generally coming from - the Bay Area. California is, let's say, a dream-like world where people have unreasonable expectations, to say the least.

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

I think you might be on to something.

The average gay man is far more histrionic and overly sensitive than the average woman.

This is getting boring n I reall hope that games can move past this issue. Women are represented in an object kind of way but I feel games are getting a lot closer to what movies are at with story telling. Meaning women are getting eqaul treatment as men but it ain't there yet n the solution to me is make more female protagonist that are strong yet still be feminine or just seem kool. Examples being= Alex(HL2), Claire Redfield, Samara n Liara(ME 1 2) n I'm sure there are more but I can't remember them lol.

@Animasta: Why would you think that Conservatives *hate* women? Also, any sane human being doesn't automatically disqualify someone sources based on ideological differences. You should at least look into them, as I seriously doubt that just because said source has an agenda that they could outright lie or make shit up.

@Jimbo: No, it just means he made a fucking spelling error. Jesus Christ people...

I don't want to hear about Feminist Frequency.  Couldn't stand her.  Not fun, charismatic, or analytical.  Deserves somebody better who's actually going to come up with something more productive than "UGH STUPID ADOLESCENT BOY FANTASIES."  So mature and thought-provoking.
 
Anyway, it's a medium.  There's going to be crap everywhere.  Even in a single game, like Mass Effect 2 or 3.  You have goddamn fascinating characters like Mordin Solus, and then you have shit like Diana Allers and stilted conversations all over the place.   I don't think we can change it any more than we can books or movies.  But at least we can start being more critical of shitty character motivations like "THEY'VE GOT UR WIFE" and immediately expecting us to sympathize with the main character, and be motivated (don't mean to be picking at Dom here, although plenty of people take issue with his storyline).   There's a lot to look at, but you should just do what you would do for any other medium, right?  Pick out the good stuff and exalt it over and over again, pick at the bad stuff, hope somebody catches on?

Too much whine not enough biscuits.

@RollingZeppelin said:

It's funny because 99% of the people complaining about this Tomb Raider issue are men. Just another fucking stupid, insignificant internet controversy.

That's the real problem with everything that the internet touches. The format of the media we use to communicate naturally leads to aggressive arguments, otherwise it would be pretty boring. There's no point in replying to a topic if all you're going to say is "yes, I agree with the OP". So almost every post is criticising some other poster. And eventually everyone works themselves up into a fervour over completely mundane topics.

This is an endemic problem on every forum, and I think it will continue to be until we figure out a better way to easily and anonymously communicate on the internet.

exactly!

@JasonR86 said:

@Anwar said:

I hope everybody who paid that lady to talk about important issues like feminism is aware what kind of quality they'll eventually get.

Ugh. You know, Bayonetta as a character could be discussed in a really intelligent way. The negatives and positives about her character (the biggest negative being the fact that her primary feature are her...features) are complex and require good, strong analysis. The point of the analysis might focus on the most relevant question; is Bayonetta as a character inherently sexists and, if so, why and what can we do differently. The goal would be to be objective, realistic, and fair. This lady dumbs it down to pointing out the obvious, bitching about the obvious, and tying the obvious to odd, left-field things like Japanese subways. There's nothing inherently wrong with feminism and I think most people, men and women alike, want women and men of all races, orientation, and creed to be treated equally. But she isn't doing that movement any favors. This just sounds like pointless bitching for bitching's sake with no real analysis or avenues for change added to improve the aforementioned bitch-worthy topic.

Fuck you, you sexist piece of shit! How dare you criticize this fucking woman for being a subpar pundit who can't form thoughtful analysis!

In all seriousness, yeah, she's pretty terrible at what she does, but of course the problem with her proposed video series is the fact that she's doing it, not that she won't do it justice.

@No0b0rAmA said:

@hoossy said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

The rest of the world is far more realistic, logical, and in general less annoying than these people.

Are you kidding me? That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. So a little Bay area liberalism/equal rights talk is WORSE than the opinions of North Korea's totalitarian regime? Worse than Ahmadinejad's threats towards Israel? Worse than neonazi and KKK beliefs of racism?

Also, let's remember that while Gamespot and GiantBomb are located in San Francisco, most of the other journalists who have criticized Tomb Raider are spread across the country.

Yes. North Korea and Iran's influence is limited purely to it's borders. Liberalism is a fucking wildfire that is destroying our youth. I'd rather live in North Korea than around liberals in the Bay Area.

Honestly, people are taking this too far. Is it really that controversial?

well Bon Voyage. If you were over there we'd never hear from you again.

More importantly, the fact that they can express their views, and you can express yours, speaks greater volumes to the freedoms we are afforded here in this country. Again, I don't think hyperbole is really making your case.

@Anwar said:

I hope everybody who paid that lady to talk about important issues like feminism is aware what kind of quality they'll eventually get.

Ugh. You know, Bayonetta as a character could be discussed in a really intelligent way. The negatives and positives about her character (the biggest negative being the fact that her primary feature are her...features) are complex and require good, strong analysis. The point of the analysis might focus on the most relevant question; is Bayonetta as a character inherently sexists and, if so, why and what can we do differently. The goal would be to be objective, realistic, and fair. This lady dumbs it down to pointing out the obvious, bitching about the obvious, and tying the obvious to odd, left-field things like Japanese subways. There's nothing inherently wrong with feminism and I think most people, men and women alike, want women and men of all races, orientation, and creed to be treated equally. But she isn't doing that movement any favors. This just sounds like pointless bitching for bitching's sake with no real analysis or avenues for change added to improve the aforementioned bitch-worthy topic.

EDIT: And the advertising was pretty clever. Likely sexists and objectifies an objectified character. But clever none the less.

@Anwar:

Wasn't that game designed by a woman?

It's funny because 99% of the people complaining about this Tomb Raider issue are men. Just another fucking stupid, insignificant internet controversy.

That's the real problem with everything that the internet touches. The format of the media we use to communicate naturally leads to aggressive arguments, otherwise it would be pretty boring. There's no point in replying to a topic if all you're going to say is "yes, I agree with the OP". So almost every post is criticising some other poster. And eventually everyone works themselves up into a fervour over completely mundane topics.

This is an endemic problem on every forum, and I think it will continue to be until we figure out a better way to easily and anonymously communicate on the internet.

I can't get mad at Anita Sarkeesian making all that bank. I think it would be a great gesture if she gave some to charity, but as far as I'm concerned, she's earned it. She's proven that she is a popular and accessible voice for this subject, and this windfall allows her to make it into a full-time-job, if she wants it.

@CL60 said:

On an unrelated and off topic note, it pisses me off that, that women on Kickstarter talking about misogyny in video games has made almost $200,000, while an actual worthy Kickstarter is barely getting any attention at all.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1681576010/the-brian-banks-story

Why does that upset you so much that you would choose it as an example over, say, the Pebble watch making $10mil? There's problems on both sides of the fence, and both sides should have their stories told. I'm really interested in his story and I hope it gets funded, although I wish one of his pledges made it clear that you would receive the movie... maybe you don't, iono. It just so happened Sarkeesian's story reached mass media coverage because of the attacks made on her, which skyrocketed her project. I don't think any feminist in their right mind would say that the Brian Banks project shouldn't be funded as well.

@Napalm This was originally a blog post... I don't see anything wrong with someone posting to their blog and sharing it.

@Lively said:

@No0b0rAmA said:

Yes. North Korea and Iran's influence is limited purely to it's borders. Liberalism is a fucking wildfire that is destroying our youth. I'd rather live in North Korea than around liberals in the Bay Area.

Honestly, people are taking this too far. Is it really that controversial?

I'm probably going to regret asking, but how is liberalism a wildfire destroying our youth? I know you're engaging in hyperbole for dramatic effect, but I'm interested in an earnest answer.

Hahah it's actually mostly sarcasm.