I'm kind of in the same boat, but yet again, not really. I was raised going to church every single Sunday, and now I haven't gone for five years or more. I get in many discussions with my parents about god and religion, but the difference between our situations is I recognize the difference between a belief in "god" and adherence to a religion. (Don't assume that you actually know what I mean when I say that)
This is too large of a topic to discuss quickly in a forum, but I guess I'll just try to sum it up (which is probably a bad idea). Essentially, I recognize that atheism today doesn't necessarily mean a rejection of a higher power, but, rather, the rejection of the higher powers that shitty religions put forth. In that sense, I am an atheist. In another sense, though, I'm not really an atheist in the hard definition because I believe in something more abstract. Basically, that science and the rules of the universe, whatever they may be and whatever we may know, or think we know, about them currently, exist. This existence is basically the definition of God in a way. That reality and morality exist is the definition of a higher power than us animals. It's something we can't control, and it just is. Even if our understanding of it changes, it still is, and even if the actually truth of it changes, even if we don't perceive it or understand it, it still is.
So, when you talk to your parents about God and such, try to talk to them in a way that isn't so... antagonistic? Maybe that's not the right word. I guess I mean, don't simply put yourself in the box of being an atheist, because then you are no better than those putting themselves in a religious box. Instead, don't restrict yourself by any stupid definition and just create your own understanding of existence through the acquiring of all knowledge possible while using logic and reason to compare and contrast that knowledge against what you previously understand to be true. Your understanding of our existence and our universe should never be stagnant, so don't try to define something that should be ever changing.
In the end, we are all humans, and what we understand to be true doesn't impact the reality that applies to all of us...unless, of course, it does, and then that opens up a whole other can of worms.
I went through a similar thing with my mom in high school. I was raised in an Irish Catholic family, went to Catholic school up through and including high school, and when I was about 16 I sort of woke up and realized "this is all a crock of shit". I told her I didn't believe in God anymore and I think she actually feared (she probably still does) that I'll end up going to Hell when I die. The thing about my mom is she never goes to church and regularly says the Lord's name in vain, but still clings to religion because she can't accept the fact that she will most likely never see her dead siblings again and the wrongs she's suffered through in her life will never see any retribution. It's ultimately her decision and I couldn't give a shit about what she believes in as long as she doesn't give a shit about what I believe in.
I've found that through being an atheist it's made me more humble as a person and has helped me accept my inevitable fate as worm food. It's made me realize how little I or any of us really matter to the universe at the end of the day. Not in a "Woe is me nihilism is the only true ideology maaaaaaaan." sort of way but rather in a "We're the dominant species on the planet, but only because of evolution and dumb luck." sort of way.
I single-handedly converted all of my immediate family to atheism. Just doing my part, ya know. Anyway you did the right thing. You can't force yourself to believe in something that just doesn't feel right.
I'll add that I'm always amazed that women are the most fervent supporters of religion despite basically every single religion designed to deny them their humanity.
I told my mom that I was skeptical about the existence of God and she said I sound like one of those people who go to prison and convert to Islam. I still don't understand what that means.
She means you sound like black people. Also, your mom is a racist.
I guess the twist here is that I am black. I'm skeptical when it comes to all and any Gods that people think exist.
I told my mom that I was skeptical about the existence of God and she said I sound like one of those people who go to prison and convert to Islam. I still don't understand what that means.
She means you sound like black people. Also, your mom is a racist.
I guess the twist here is that I am black. I'm skeptical when it comes to all and any Gods that people think exist.
Wrong forum to post this on. Most people here have so little knowledge of religion and faith in general you could fit what they know in a small doggy bag. What you need to do is find something you do believe in, I would suggest you remember though that Athiesm is not a belief. It is a lack thereof.
Why is it, if you dont mind the question, that he has to find some sort of believe or faith?
Why is it Athiest's are afraid of people who do believe in something, organized religion or otherwise? I didn't say he "had" to do anything. However his life likely will be far more enriched by looking for things he cares about and feels strongly for and following those beliefs as opposed to just believing nothing.
If I am honest I would rather people believed in respecting other human beings instead of fearing some alleged omnipotent 'spirit' in the sky. As long as they respect other people, who are you to judge people by what they believe in? That makes you just as bad (worse even for being such a hypocrite) than the people you are referring to.
@Blimble You do have to "come out" in the USA if your family believes something different than you do. There is a lot of pressure to make atheist feel guilty and a lot of misconception that atheist are a bunch of depressed people who "turned away from god." This goes right down to public elementary schools where kids have to pledge "under god" to our flag every morning. In a lot of ways I personally feel held back by the religious beliefs of others. For example teaching of evolution was banned when I was in high school and when one of my science teachers started to discuss it with the class, a fellow classmate said " I didn't come from no monkey." Sometimes I feel like our country is all about religious freedom, but not freedom from religion. I do see it changing though. My girlfriend is an atheist as well even though she was brought up as an Evangelical Christian and her mom works for the church. Most of my coworkers are atheist too. I think religion has it's place in the world still, but not everyone has to believe and you can live a happy healthy life without a god involved.
PS why does giant bomb say "go to church" when you enter an age less than 18 in it's mature content videos. Really guys?
My girlfriend and I are both atheist. Her mom works as a couples councilor for a Christian church, so having a mom so close to religion in the family my girlfriend knows pretty much what you are going though. It is difficult to believe or rather not believe in something that your parents do. And you will probably feel guilty every time the subject comes up because parents have a way of showing disappointment when their children don't turn out the way they dreamed. This doesn't make you a bad person in any way though. In fact it makes you a way better one. A stronger one. Rather you believe in something or not you have to follow your own path and not chose it just because a bunch of other people say you need to. It's an important lesson in life to think for yourself and sometimes it has negative consequences. Chances are the relationship you have with your mom will never be the same. But in time she will respect you for figuring out what is right and what is wrong to you.
@Blimble Okay well the UK self identified as 73% Christian in 2007, so if the numbers mean everything than the UK only cares 5 percent less than America, so claiming we care too much and the UK doesn't give a shit is a fallacy. Anyways, I think we're being a tad disrespectful by driving this personal topic off the rails, so you win, god save the queen, have a good day, and all that jazz.
Great to hear and you have my full support that's for sure, both as an atheist and a fellow Norwegian :) Also from the sounds of things your mom is understanding and values your relationship more than whether or not you believe in magical beings.
@Hunter5024: That really doesn't mater. 73% of Americans see themselves as Christians. Even if we were to take half off as not "real Christians" it is still a large percentage and still a majority. You can't shrug off something like that when there is very clear evidence that Christianity is so important to America.
Trust me, most people here don't give a damn either, the ones who do are just very loud.
Only around 20% don't care about religion and even if we take some of your not "real" Christians you aren't the majority.
@Blimble: Well I think there is a big difference between the number of people who self identify as Christians, and the number of people who actually practice their religion, go to church, care what religion their friends are etc. Trust me, most people here don't give a damn either, the ones who do are just very loud.
@Mushir: The important thing is that you thought it over and made a decision. Some people hold fast to a religion and never bother to question it. I have made peace with some of the gnarlier parts of the Old Testament and continue to (occaisionally) practice Judaism. It would have been nice if your parents had explained the reason for their religious practices better when you were younger. The practices are rooted in a certain logic and that understanding can go a long way toward appreciating a religious practice.
Another important thing to recognize is that your family, possibly by way of your religion, instilled important values upon you. If you can continue to honor those values, you are showing support to them and to the religion. Your questioning of God does not exclude you from appreciating the religion's values. Your concern is with the religion's practice.
also that's not the way it is in America, that's the way it is in religious families.
In all fairness in America you can't get any place in government unless you keep going on about Jesus, storms get blamed on gays by big tv station and a large percentage of people still deny evolution cause it goes against the bible. It is a generalisation but not an unfair with the way the USA is
Hey, congratulations on doing something that was obviously difficult for you! My mom's afraid of vicars and my dad once told me he was a satanist so I don't think I'll ever have to face what you did. Thing is, whether you believe in God or not shouldn't change who you are. You should always be trying to better yourself and do right by the world. I think as long as your mom understands this and that your personality is still going to remain the same she should be okay.
I can see it being very difficult in a Muslim household. I feel the same and I come from a strict christian household. The fact that my parent's are creationists just boggles the mind.
I told my mom that I was skeptical about the existence of God and she said I sound like one of those people who go to prison and convert to Islam. I still don't understand what that means.
She means you sound like black people. Also, your mom is a racist.
I wouldn't listen to someone who wants you to be unhappy because it makes them feel good to have you believe. That's just selfish.
Personally, I was raised by a (religiously) lazy coward who wanted to say she was a Christian and pretend she was religious but didn't want to live by all those pesky rules and dogma. But anytime I tell her that there is no God and its all just superstition, she gets taken aback like God might hear me and lay a reckoning down. She's too lazy to actually live like a Christian, but she's also terrified of divine retribution and the chance that a magical man will judge her when she dies.
Also I think agnosticism is a complete copout (sorry, agnostics). It's a nice easy way to avoid having to live by any dogma while still keeping the light on in case it turns out you were wrong and one of the religions was right. I say that because I was agnostic. I found every religion to be weird and corrupt, but I was too afraid of being punished by the magic man so I picked nice, neutral, meaningless agnosticism.
It's a brave thing you did duder, hopefully it works out for you and your family.
I think spirituality has to be explored on an individual basis, so keep an open mind and maybe do a little bit of discovery before defining yourself strictly as an Atheist.
Wrong forum to post this on. Most people here have so little knowledge of religion and faith in general you could fit what they know in a small doggy bag. What you need to do is find something you do believe in, I would suggest you remember though that Athiesm is not a belief. It is a lack thereof.
Why is it, if you dont mind the question, that he has to find some sort of believe or faith?
Why is it Athiest's are afraid of people who do believe in something, organized religion or otherwise? I didn't say he "had" to do anything. However his life likely will be far more enriched by looking for things he cares about and feels strongly for and following those beliefs as opposed to just believing nothing.
Afraid is not the right word, its cool you believe in something that doesn't exist but don't go around telling others it's true without scientific facts.
@Blimble said:
It's so weird that in America you still have to come out as a atheist. In the UK pretty much no one gives a shit what you are
Same in New Zealand didn't even realize our PM was Jewish until reading his wikipedia, religion just doesn't matter in politics and life here.
It's matters like this that make me try and keep my religion private from everybody. (That and it would bring great shame to my family to know that I am part of a Reptile Cult. Don't judge me.) My mother is christian and when my brother went through his flaky rebellious teenage phase and went wiccan, then christian again, then atheist, then christian once more, then buddhist, and felt the need to tell my mom every time you could always see how much it hurt her. Between stuff like that and people who like to judge you based on your religion, I feel like it's best kept a private matter.
@Blimble said:
It's so weird that in America you still have to come out as a atheist. In the UK pretty much no one gives a shit what you are
OP said he lived in Norway, also that's not the way it is in America, that's the way it is in religious families.
I've never been there myself, but I'm glad that your mother seems to be understanding. I've heard stories from people who were not so lucky. Good luck to you, whatever you do.
Thanks so much for all the comments guys. I really appreciate it.
Thankfully my mother is understanding of this situation, and she's handling is better with me since my brother has already gone through the same thing. But I know that she's praying for me all the time and she believes that this is just a "phase" and that I will eventually become religious again. That's my main problem. I don't want her to think that this is just a phase that I'm going through, but something that I'll most likely stick to through my whole life. I've told this to her, but being the religious person she is, she refuses to have the same mindset as me.
I live in the American South, so I'm not familiar with Islam in particular, but I know how religious people can be (the South is known for its Evangelical Christians, but it has a lot of more tolerable religious people, too). Your beliefs are your beliefs, however you arrive at them. I find that questioning things gives you a deeper understanding and appreciation of them.
Your mother is hoping that your "phase" is just you questioning the beliefs of your parents, and that you will eventually decide that your parents were right. When I looked at Islam when I was much younger, it looked like it had a lot of unnecessary rituals, and I find that rituals in general distract from the places where your attention is supposed to be focused. I discussed rituals some with a Catholic friend, who said that the rituals in her religion were supposed be symbolic and reinforce their intended meaning, but that never seems to be the way those things work out.
You said there were principles you liked in Islam and you think it has value. That's a good start. It might seem ironic in these circumstances, but a prayer for guidance seems oddly appropriate. If you have a god who can lead you, you'll end up in the right place, and if not you can't be blamed for not trying. I hope you find your way, wherever you go.
Now if only I weren't on my gaming screen name... oh well.
I told my mom that I was skeptical about the existence of God and she said I sound like one of those people who go to prison and convert to Islam. I still don't understand what that means.
I don't think religion is about believing in whatever crazy stories your group made up thousands of years ago, it's about being a good person, if you keep that up, your parents shouldn't care.
You're right, his parents SHOULDN'T care, and as long as someone is being a good person, they should be just fine. But unfortunately, that's not how it ends up in a lot of families. Here's my take (long post, sorry, I feel like writing a bunch right now.)
To me, using your brain and being rational is how you can decide what is moral or immoral. Really thinking about things from multiple perspectives and deciding which ones are the most valid and which ones have proven to be beneficial is how you be a good person. Look at history, science and psychology, sociology etc. and personal experience, and you can get a pretty decent idea of how you should behave. It may not be perfect, and it varies from person to person, but there are a lot of inherent moral values that we as a species tend to all agree upon, generally. (secular humanism is a pretty good representation of morality based on reason.)
Religion is sorta like that, but without all of the thinking. You learn some pretty specific rules on what to do and what not to do, but instead of coming to your own conclusions based on your own situation and your own perception, you're spoon-fed everything in a black-and-white, generalized way. Indoctrination through fear instead of rational conclusions. People still think rationally and decide which parts of their religious text to take seriously, and which parts to not. So for example, a Christian can justify being a Christian by saying "But isn't the golden rule great? What about the 10 commandments? Aren't those pretty good moral guidelines?" And the answer is, yes, there are parts of every religion that do make a lot of sense and are good, applicable rules. However, it doesn't take a holy book to figure out "don't kill people". It's pretty easy to understand that it's wrong without ever turning to religious teachings. But if you ask the same Christian about the parts of the bible that endorse slavery, they'll say "weeelll, historical context" or "weeellll, that's not supposed to be taken literally". They understand that slavery is fucked up on their own, they don't need the book to tell them. They are good people DESPITE their religion, not BECAUSE of it.
And what happens with religion is, people get really proud of the good bits, and they're proud they're part of something that values those good bits (which they know to be good regardless.) The consequence of religion is that it instills a heavy tribal mentality. For example, all the bullshit that happened in Ireland with the Catholics and Protestants. They basically believed in the same things, but they couldn't reconcile with each other because they were so caught up in tiny differences. Even more so with the christian majority in america vs. atheists in america. Atheists and religious people can usually agree that "yeah, killing is wrong", but in large, it's been nearly impossible to reconcile our differences in worldview, especially because the religious side are very much attached to their stories and teachings. Parents disown their kids because of small differences like religious belief. People are persecuted and turned into pariahs and outcasts, when in reality, they're not too much different than any of their peers.
The other consequence of religion is a sense of guilt, and an overall lack of personal responsibility. Unfortunately, no amount of indoctrination can change human nature. There will always be murderers, cheaters, thieves, etc. Religion can't change that. All it really does is make you feel horrible for doing something that is part of your biology. Obviously there are things you should refrain from doing, but religion sets unbelievable goals and irrationally high expectations, and treats you like shit if you do what comes naturally--It's the downfall of an overly simplified morality structure. Every person has their own unique situation, and there are so many shades of gray (more than 50 even).
For example: rape is wrong, nobody's really opposing that (at least not in western civilization), and people should be punished if they rape someone else. That's easy. That's a pretty solid law that can be enforced in a straightforward way. But then when you lump every sort of unusual or unfamiliar sort of sexual conduct together as "sodomy" or "abominable behavior" it becomes too strict. With such a broad moral code, someone who is gay deserves the same punishment as a rapist, when the latter is obviously the more reprehensible crime, and to most rational people, the former isn't a crime at all. Gay people will still be gay, regardless of whether or not they believe it's ok. But with religion, the people that could be leading happy, gay lives are instead repressed, and trying to make things work when it simply goes against their nature. This is where such intense homophobia comes from in deeply religious communities, at least some of it. There are so many people who are uncomfortable with their own sexuality because their religion is against it, and so they are forced to repress it or even consciously suppress it by speaking out against homosexuality, and warning others not to engage in it. If the bible or quran or some other holy book can repress someone's urge to rape someone, that's one thing. But when people hate themselves, it just leads to unhappiness, bigotry, and a lot of the time even WORSE crimes.
Religion, unlike rationally derived morality, also gives people a crutch for inexcusable things. As I said earlier, it won't prevent people from committing crimes, it will just give them a way to be "absolved" of them. If it weren't Catholic priests who molested children, they would be locked the fuck up right now. In fact, if priests weren't forced into celibacy (which goes against a huge part of our biology), they probably would have never fucked an altar boy in the first place! They'd probably have a wife, or a girlfriend (or boyfriend) that they had consensual, adult sex with, and everything would have been fine and dandy. But because the book demands that priests be absolutely celibate, things like child molestation happen, ESPECIALLY because they know that they'll be covered up or just moved to a different fucking church to molest another kid.
And the WORST PART of it all, is that these priests can sleep at night and feel fine because all they have to do is confess, and viola! Their sins are absolved. As long as you give money to the church, and you keep showing up, and you keep confessing, you're set for an eternity in paradise! There's a great quote that basically says (and i'm paraphrasing here) "I prayed to god to get a bike, but that didn't happen. So instead, I stole a kid's bike and then prayed for forgiveness." That quote expresses this point much more concisely than I just did. It just gives people an escape from the torment they feel when they do something wrong. Forgiving people for doing wrong is important, but if they hadn't had such unreasonable standards set for them in the first place, they probably wouldn't have done nearly as much wrong.
@Karkarov So you're basically saying that atheists care about nothing (at least not deeply) because they "believe in nothing"? Which is a ridiculous statement by the way. Also, it seems you haven't been reading the same posts I have, because the vast majority of people here are being far from condescending of anything religious.
Anyway, to be on topic, I think it's good you chose your own path and didn't stick to something just because your parents do it, because of tradition. You seem to have handled it the best you could and as long as you do good things in life, I'm sure your mother will be proud.
As a Christian I'll just say. Good on ya. I'm glad you didn't try to hide something like that and that it has not created a gulf between the two of you. Your mom sounds like a hell of a lady.
People from both camps (believers and non-believers) often care too much about what the each other thinks. Your beliefs should only matter to you.
Wrong forum to post this on. Most people here have so little knowledge of religion and faith in general you could fit what they know in a small doggy bag. What you need to do is find something you do believe in, I would suggest you remember though that Athiesm is not a belief. It is a lack thereof.
Why is it, if you dont mind the question, that he has to find some sort of believe or faith?
Why is it Athiest's are afraid of people who do believe in something, organized religion or otherwise? I didn't say he "had" to do anything. However his life likely will be far more enriched by looking for things he cares about and feels strongly for and following those beliefs as opposed to just believing nothing.
Dont get me wrong, I didnt mean to criticize you, I was just curious. When it comes to your answer: You are implying that Agnostics/Athists "belive" (not in the sense of faith) in nothing. I feel thats a little unfair. I think most non-believers (in the sense of faith) believe (again, not in the sense of faith) in respect and love for their fellow human beings. They just dont feel like they need some sort of religion to guide them.
As I said: I didnt mean to offend/attack you, I'm just interested in the way others are thinking. Your answer sounded a whole lot like an advise to find a different faith to me, I might have gotten that wrong.
Just wanted to stop by and say congrats. I know how it feels to tell your folks you don't believe. Mine didn't and still haven't coped with the fact that "I'm going to hell." so I'm glad to hear your mom was so understanding. I think with any form of faith or lack there of it's all about respect for the other side, after all some of my best friends are devout Catholics and two are Muslim. I just found for me Atheism was the right choice. Also your avatar is awesome.
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