"This guy broke the law, I understand that. But, his actions are minor compared to the people who are pirating the games. I go back to the young man who jail-broke the Kinect hardware. Microsoft didn't sue the shit out of those guys. One of the guys is even making the Kinect a divice to help blind people. I think that Sony could have approached this whole thing in a much more tactful manner."

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @StaticFalconar said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @StaticFalconar said:

" @iam3green said:

" well thanks for that. i don't really knew about this until i read that. it's something that sony should just get rid of. people are always going pirate software or edit the software. apple hasn't done anything about the people that jailbreak their ipods, iphones.there are also piracy problem with the xbox 360. there is nothing companies can do about piracy. even steam is piratable. people can pirate the games on steam that valve and other companies released for that system. "

Apple took the jailbreak ipod guy to court. The jailbreak guy wasn't as much of a pussy and actually stood his ground and won his case. Too bad you can't say the same for Geodude.  "

GeoHotz IS the "jailbreak ipod guy". "

Well that just goes to show that he felt guilty enough to run away. I mean you got a win in your record book against one big corp, but run away against another? You'd think the legal experience gained winning against Apple would help against sony, or maybe it helped him realize he wouldn't have won this time around.  "

You'd think that you would be a little less mouthy about this seeing as you didn't recognise that GeoHot was the "jailbreak ipod guy" who wasn't a pussy in the first place but I guess not. Which is it exactly?  Is he a pussy now but not then or is he smart and not being a pussy or is it that the world is a lot more complicated than judging people by pussy/not a pussy delineations? "

Why are you obsessed over who the pussy is? Can't get any and is on the quest to find some?

Yes I didn't know who the guy was, and his most recent actions does show that he is a pussy if he does believe he is actually doing the right thing. If he stood his ground like before, then he would still be the "hero" that the jailbreak guy was (yes i know its the same guy now). However, I am actually not on the side of the hackers, so I believe he is being smart in fleeing since he probably wouldn't have won anyway. The opposite of being a pussy is brave, so he can be both smart in running away and a pussy at the same time. Perhaps its you that doesn't understand I'm not judging people solely on one criteria. 

"

" @SeriouslyNow: The only reason why you see any inconsistency is because I didn't who it was the same guy. I'm like human you stupid robot, I can make mistakes. My opinion is still quite consistent. I defend his right to try to defend himself since he is innocent until proven guilty. But Personally I don't believe he is. Anybody that would outright try to hack something obviously believes he has the right to do so, and this guy actually had a proven track record of actually succeeding. So why stop now? Who is more inconsistent? Why are you trying to bring this around to make this about me? I ain't the pussy here.  "

" @StaticFalconar said:

" @SeriouslyNow: The only reason why you see any inconsistency is because I didn't who it was the same guy. I'm like human you stupid robot, I can make mistakes. My opinion is still quite consistent. I defend his right to try to defend himself since he is innocent until proven guilty. But Personally I don't believe he is. Anybody that would outright try to hack something obviously believes he has the right to do so, and this guy actually had a proven track record of actually succeeding. So why stop now? Who is more inconsistent? Why are you trying to bring this around to make this about me? I ain't the pussy here.  "

Umm ok?  You believe he's obviously guilty because he ouright tried to hack something which makes him a sociopath (what?) but has the right to defend himself because you gave him that right (right?) but because he's not defending himself he's a pussy, in your opinion.  ummm...what? "

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @StaticFalconar said:

" @SeriouslyNow: The only reason why you see any inconsistency is because I didn't who it was the same guy. I'm like human you stupid robot, I can make mistakes. My opinion is still quite consistent. I defend his right to try to defend himself since he is innocent until proven guilty. But Personally I don't believe he is. Anybody that would outright try to hack something obviously believes he has the right to do so, and this guy actually had a proven track record of actually succeeding. So why stop now? Who is more inconsistent? Why are you trying to bring this around to make this about me? I ain't the pussy here.  "

Umm ok?  You believe he's obviously guilty because he ouright tried to hack something which makes him a sociopath (what?) but has the right to defend himself because you gave him that right (right?) but because he's not defending himself he's a pussy, in your opinion.  ummm...what? "

Sociopath? What post are you reading? I never said he was obviously anything nor I ever called him a sociopath. Just what?

ummmm...... what?
"

"Anonomyous is fighting the good fight for the consumer so I have no problem having no psn until sony agrees to get rid of all the ip addresses that they took from geohotz's site. "

How is tracking down the names and contact information of Sony execs and their family members "fighting the good fight"? For argument's sake, lets say the execs infor is ok, but what the fuck does their family have to do with anything? How is that in anyway justified?

"Think if you went to work, and at the end of the week someone stole your paycheck. Would you fight back? Of course you would."

Even if this was "just for the attention" or "childish" I think it's the right way to go, and I hope it encourages the hacker community to step up and realize that they have a great deal of power to affect this technology-dependent world we live in and that they should do so (for a number of reasons I don't feel like enumerating here). 

They're just trying to get attention, they can't do shit to a company as huge as Sony

" They're just trying to get attention, they can't do shit to a company as huge as Sony "

They're fighting for a cause that doesn't exist. What they do is childish and out of line.

so if the company you worked for made gadget X and i was able to hack it to allow anybody to use it freely for service Y software A and by doing that your company lost 25% of the sales to stealing and they had to lay off 10% of their staff do to lost profits does that make it ok? because i was just tinkering with something i bought legally. it doesn't matter if it's a small independent company or a huge multi-national corporation like sony, apple or microsoft if you hack their products that allow people to steal from them its WRONG and they have every right to pursue every legal option they can.  Laws are there for a reason and if you/we break them we suffer the consequences of breaking those laws, and duchebag gehot knew he was breaking the law when he started down this path so if he had the balls to break the law then he should have the balls to man up and accept whatever punishment maybe handed down. and rationalizing his actions by saying big bad sony is being a bully is just childish and ignorant because if you were one of those people in my example who lost their jobs because of some one else's actions i am pretty sure you wouldn't think it was ok for the hacker to do what he did. 

I bought a PS3 a couple of weeks ago and only just got it connected to PSN.

One other example to bring it a little closer to home would be, what some one hacked whiskey media allowing everyone access to paid members content? And they passed it on freely to the Internet would that be ok? If it drove up their bandwidth costs compromised their users security? Would whiskey media have the right to go after whoever did it by any legal means nessacary? Just because u can steal something doesn't mean u should or that it's right because u think the big bad company is wrong.

I came to GB thinking I'd see a less juvenile-ass juvenile discussion of this stuff!  Okay, it's less juvenile than what I've seen elsewhere, but that's saying something.  If this case were completely cut-and-dry, we wouldn't be having this argument - the case would be done with, Anonymous would be having a tea party (no, a real tea party), and we'd be talking about shooting Nazi dinosaurs right now.  The giant quote-spammers here really need to weigh the different sides of this, realize it's a fustercluck, and talk civilly about the issue - no one needs to be called a mullet... that's just low, man.

Well, it's probably the three parties being discussed that are the biggest problem here.  GeoHot's definitely an iconoclast, thinking he's totally right, and just freeing up the PS3 to allow Linux OS installations again, completely ignoring the problems inherent in his actions.  Still, he's circumventing software in order to promote interoperability, not quite what the Librarian of Congress ruled last year regarding iPhone and eBook jailbreaking, but close.  Sony has corporated it up through this entire incident, giving vague "security reasons" answers to its consumers when removing functionality, citing "routine maintenance" when attacked, and the big problem - easily getting permission from courts to get lists of IP addresses to site visitors.   I'm not sure if the court system is more to blame there... maybe it is.  Anonymous, in the meantime, sees the IP address thing as the linchpin in their argument, which is noble - Sony's going a little nuts with the IP thing, and it seems more like a scare tactic than something helpful.  At the same time, they're obviously barking up the wrong tree just crippling some websites and slowing down network access for a short period of time.  No corporation is going to say "Yeah, you're right" after making their site harder to access for a couple of hours.  They won't respond to any "demands" in an Anonymous video, and consumers will be inconvenienced for a day or so.  

None of your views are wrong, really - the amalgamation of your comments is probably the most correct - but taking a side in an absolute fashion in this legal quagmire is wrong.  There's plenty of stupid to pass around between all three parties.

" so if the company you worked for made gadget X and i was able to hack it to allow anybody to use it freely for service Y software A and by doing that your company lost 25% of the sales to stealing and they had to lay off 10% of their staff do to lost profits does that make it ok? because i was just tinkering with something i bought legally. it doesn't matter if it's a small independent company or a huge multi-national corporation like sony, apple or microsoft if you hack their products that allow people to steal from them its WRONG and they have every right to pursue every legal option they can.  Laws are there for a reason and if you/we break them we suffer the consequences of breaking those laws, and duchebag gehot knew he was breaking the law when he started down this path so if he had the balls to break the law then he should have the balls to man up and accept whatever punishment maybe handed down. and rationalizing his actions by saying big bad sony is being a bully is just childish and ignorant because if you were one of those people in my example who lost their jobs because of some one else's actions i am pretty sure you wouldn't think it was ok for the hacker to do what he did.  "

But, there are so many small buisnesses that help us steal every year. Gamefly lets us rent the games that we pirate. Apple makes the DVD burner that lets us copy our movies. The grocery store leaves it's grapes out in the open, tempting us to take just one...(whisper) and we do. Should we be angry with Toast because we can make DVD's from ripped content? Or the internet for giving us free porn, whenever we want it, and we never have to pay. 

Things enable us to do things (Who said that Einstein?), but you get what I mean. Smith & Wesson makes the gun; not the unstable idiot who shoots it. 

It all comes down to conscience, once again. If you use this stuff for stealing and you can live with yourself, go ahead. I have a clear conscience. I am sure there is a karmic counter counting down all of our digital digressions. Those songs you downloaded off of Napster, that copy of the translated Mother 3 rom (Thinking, "That game is never comin' out here.), that time you went to that Hentai anime site devoted to preteen robot porn and then realized it was five in the morning. All that stuff is adding up, for those of us with a conscience. 

Freedom is a messy buisness: online or in society. People need to understand that we can control what we do on the internet. Just because bitTorrent exists doesn't mean we have to use it. Netflix is giving us a ligitamate competitor that is legal. Just because you can't get Earthbound on Virtual Console, doesn't mean you should put every NES rom on a burned cd and play it on your Dreamcast. But, much of it is on the companies as well. They keep the platform closed enough so we can't access it for the need we have as individuals. Homebrew guys want to get jobs. PS3 users want a media center that works properly. Sometimes people want to play games from other regions, that they bought legally from play-asia.com. Sometimes university's want to "fold".." thousands and thousands of PS3s "at" your "home." People want to use their own shit for crazy stuff. Let them do it. If I want to buy a PS3 just to take a crap on it everyday, that is my buisness. 

Anon, 4chan, Internet hacker gangs... Fuck 'em.

Lol Good job Anon on FINALLY realizing that what they were doing to the PSN was actually hurting the gamers. Derpa DERRR.

 I know you know this because you mentioned this, but you downplay that fact a lot and it's something that can't be ignored.

Laws are there for more than just moral reasons,

Think if you went to work, and at the end of the week someone stole your paycheck. Would you fight back?

You know Apple right?  You know they totally started their whole business by modifying an Atari 2600 into the first Apple Computer?

And if Sony hadn't built the console in the first place then people wouldn't be able to pirate games for it, so why not go after Sony?  You can't go after somebody just because their legal actions happened to make an illegal action by somebody else possible somewhere down the line.  If that logic stands then you can blame anybody for just about anything.  A knife was used in a crime?  Blame the guy that mined the iron ore. 

The crux of the matter for me is whether his actions were explicitly for the purposes of facilitating piracy, which is up to Sony to prove.  If there are legit uses for what he did and it's simply being misused for piracy by a third party, then the responsibility for breaking the law rests solely on that third party.  Just saying that his actions made it easier for other people to break the law is not a strong enough argument for me - those people still had to make a conscious decision to break the law and it's those people who should be pursued by the law.

My desire to see the games industry protected as much as possible does extend so far that I want game companies to be able to write the law and dictate what people can and cannot do with their own property.

" And if Sony hadn't built the console in the first place then people wouldn't be able to pirate games for it, so why not go after Sony?  You can't go after somebody just because their legal actions happened to make an illegal action by somebody else possible somewhere down the line. "

Thing is, it's a civil case.  As far as the law's concerned people who jailbreak these devices are not criminals.  What Sony is trying to prove is that George Hotz broke the DCMA by using copyrighted material to jailbreak the PS3.   His use of copyrighted material owned by them would infringe on their patents, but of course they already know he hasn't otherwise he would've been charged with a crime.  In no other way can they pursue him and so they turn to a legal position which is frankly going to be almost impossible to prove and they know this so this is why they've subpoenaed all that other information - in the hopes that they can use scare tactics to convince people not to even use jailbreaking tools at all.

@Sammann31415 said:

" I came to GB thinking I'd see a less juvenile-ass juvenile discussion of this stuff!  Okay, it's less juvenile than what I've seen elsewhere, but that's saying something.  If this case were completely cut-and-dry, we wouldn't be having this argument - the case would be done with, Anonymous would be having a tea party (no, a real tea party), and we'd be talking about shooting Nazi dinosaurs right now.  The giant quote-spammers here really need to weigh the different sides of this, realize it's a fustercluck, and talk civilly about the issue - no one needs to be called a mullet... that's just low, man.

Well, it's probably the three parties being discussed that are the biggest problem here.  GeoHot's definitely an iconoclast, thinking he's totally right, and just freeing up the PS3 to allow Linux OS installations again, completely ignoring the problems inherent in his actions.  Still, he's circumventing software in order to promote interoperability, not quite what the Librarian of Congress ruled last year regarding iPhone and eBook jailbreaking, but close.  Sony has corporated it up through this entire incident, giving vague "security reasons" answers to its consumers when removing functionality, citing "routine maintenance" when attacked, and the big problem - easily getting permission from courts to get lists of IP addresses to site visitors.   I'm not sure if the court system is more to blame there... maybe it is.  Anonymous, in the meantime, sees the IP address thing as the linchpin in their argument, which is noble - Sony's going a little nuts with the IP thing, and it seems more like a scare tactic than something helpful.  At the same time, they're obviously barking up the wrong tree just crippling some websites and slowing down network access for a short period of time.  No corporation is going to say "Yeah, you're right" after making their site harder to access for a couple of hours.  They won't respond to any "demands" in an Anonymous video, and consumers will be inconvenienced for a day or so.  

None of your views are wrong, really - the amalgamation of your comments is probably the most correct - but taking a side in an absolute fashion in this legal quagmire is wrong.  There's plenty of stupid to pass around between all three parties. "

" @Jimbo said:

" And if Sony hadn't built the console in the first place then people wouldn't be able to pirate games for it, so why not go after Sony?  You can't go after somebody just because their legal actions happened to make an illegal action by somebody else possible somewhere down the line. "

Modifying Electronics is illegal where he lives, your argument is invalid. "

" @Pinworm45 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" And if Sony hadn't built the console in the first place then people wouldn't be able to pirate games for it, so why not go after Sony?  You can't go after somebody just because their legal actions happened to make an illegal action by somebody else possible somewhere down the line. "

Modifying Electronics is illegal where he lives, your argument is invalid. "

If it's that cut and dry then why all the brouhaha about whether or not his actions facilitated piracy?  Seems pretty superfluous if the act of "Modifying Electronics" itself is already illegal.  How come jailbreaking phones turned out to be ok? "

Just as an aside.  Investigations and stings take time.  Where I live, we just saw a secret 3 years drug investigation start making its first arrests.  These people though they were getting away with it.  They said, "Look were just doing our things and nobody is watching use."   However, they were wrong the DEA, FBI and State and Local police were watching.  The made 28 arrests a week or two ago.  Yes, some of those folks will plead out, turn over other bigger fish, etc.  Nevertheless, in the end they were caught, much of the property they own like houses, cars, boats are confiscated and will never be returned...and some dudes elsewhere up the chain would like to see them dead.

The people in 4Chan, Anonymous and other hacker groups likely think they are getting away with things now.  "Look nobody is catching us,” but you have to be a fool in the United States if you think the NSA, CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security isn't watching you especially when you publicly make threats.  The few kids in a basement who are not talking might be safe but if you blab on the internet after you manage to disrupt something...you are already caught -- you just don't know it yet.  In addition, attacking Multinational Corporation and shutting down servers then congratulating yourself publicly on US soil is just domestic or international terrorism, and that is just stupid.  And, if it is not yet - well, that is coming believe me.

In the next, five or six years three thing will happen:
- A huge hacker event will happen that does something normal people get affected by...power shut down, servers for banks & financial institutions brought down (i.e. domestic terrorism)
- People will freak and god forbid some people dies because the power was off or whatever, so much like 9/11 people will GIVE the powers-at-be the power to hammer down hard

- All these hackers who like to boast on the Internet will find themselves in a prison in Guam that is run like a f-ing nightmare

Nobody except their families and a few other hackers will care about these people.  Guam is far away.  The ones that do not shit their pants and blab everything them know right away will be tossed on a cell for a decade like what happened at Gunanatimo.  And, no they will not come out twice as smart or twice and dangerous.  They will come out hopelessly poor and messed up...and still being watched.     

" @Jimbo said:

" @Pinworm45 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" And if Sony hadn't built the console in the first place then people wouldn't be able to pirate games for it, so why not go after Sony?  You can't go after somebody just because their legal actions happened to make an illegal action by somebody else possible somewhere down the line. "

Modifying Electronics is illegal where he lives, your argument is invalid. "

If it's that cut and dry then why all the brouhaha about whether or not his actions facilitated piracy?  Seems pretty superfluous if the act of "Modifying Electronics" itself is already illegal.  How come jailbreaking phones turned out to be ok? "

1. Because people are debating whether he was in the wrong morally, not legally2. Because the owning companies didn't bother to press charges, unlike sony. it's also a fairly recent change. "

People forget that what started all of this was Sony's blanket removal of the OtherOS feature in the PS3.  People forget that PS3 piracy is actually only possible due to Sony's own negligence when it comes to basic encryption shared key management.  People forget that this is the same Sony who told people to get another job to pay for the PS3 when its inflated price was questioned.  People forget that this is the same Sony who made ALLIWANTFORXMASISAPSP.com.  People forget.  People can be weak-minded and weak-willed and they need reminding from time to time lest they let their weaknesses turn them into happy little corporate slaves before its too late.

" @Pinworm45 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" @Pinworm45 said:

" @Jimbo said:

" And if Sony hadn't built the console in the first place then people wouldn't be able to pirate games for it, so why not go after Sony?  You can't go after somebody just because their legal actions happened to make an illegal action by somebody else possible somewhere down the line. "

Modifying Electronics is illegal where he lives, your argument is invalid. "

If it's that cut and dry then why all the brouhaha about whether or not his actions facilitated piracy?  Seems pretty superfluous if the act of "Modifying Electronics" itself is already illegal.  How come jailbreaking phones turned out to be ok? "

1. Because people are debating whether he was in the wrong morally, not legally2. Because the owning companies didn't bother to press charges, unlike sony. it's also a fairly recent change. "

1. Actually, we ARE debating legality. We are debating morality AND legality. Have you not been reading the comments?
2. Apple took a very similar case to court and LOST. Fair use and all that. You might want to read through the ruling.

Also, where is "modifying electronics" illegal? That term is vague enough to include any number of things, including writing C code or changing out the hard drive on your pc, which are legal pretty much everywhere. Why don't you put up a link to whatever law you are talking about? Until you do I'm going to call BS on it.

@SeriouslyNow said:

People forget that what started all of this was Sony's blanket removal of the OtherOS feature in the PS3.  People forget that PS3 piracy is actually only possible due to Sony's own negligence when it comes to basic encryption shared key management.  People forget that this is the same Sony who told people to get another job to pay for the PS3 when its inflated price was questioned.  People forget that this is the same Sony who made ALLIWANTFORXMASISAPSP.com.  People forget.  People can be weak-minded and weak-willed and they need reminding from time to time lest they let their weaknesses turn them into happy little corporate slaves before its too late.

People also forget this little fiasco. "

1. Actually, we ARE debating legality. We are debating morality AND legality. Have you not been reading the comments?
2. Apple took a very similar case to court and LOST. Fair use and all that. You might want to read through the ruling.

Also, where is "modifying electronics" illegal? That term is vague enough to include any number of things, including writing C code or changing out the hard drive on your pc, which are legal pretty much everywhere. Why don't you put up a link to whatever law you are talking about? Until you do I'm going to call BS on it.

" @DystopiaX: How concerned is the law with this case really? If what GeoHot had done was actually illegal this sure as shit wouldn't be a civil lawsuit. To be honest I'm amazed at the number of utilitarian analysis of this situation that are 1) shortsighted (the potential precedent Sony wants set here is one that I for one am not comfortable with) 2) Blame GeoHot for all cases of piracy on the PS3 that follow from this. There are a lot of actions which ENABLE piracy, hell one of them is breathing, by trying to shift the blame onto GeoHot you're just removing blame from the real problem, the pirates.  "

• On January 11, 2011, Sony sued Hotz and others (including members of fail0verflow) on 8 claims, including violation of the DMCA, computer fraud, and copyright infringement. The law firm used by Sony is Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP. In response, to the suit Carnegie Mellon University professor David S. Touretzky mirrored Hotz's writings and issued a statement supporting that Hotz's publication is within his right to free speech.
• On January 27, 2011, Sony's request for a temporary restraining order (TRO) was granted by the US District Court for the Northern District of California. This forbade him from distributing the jailbreak, helping or encouraging others to jailbreak, and distributing information they've learned during the creation of the jailbreak. It also ordered him to turn over computers and storage media used in the creation of the jailbreak to Sony's lawyers. Professor Touretzky's mirror was voluntarily censored following issue of the TRO, but Hotz's writings and software have been mirrored elsewhere.
• On February 12, 2011, Hotz posted a rap video on his official YouTube page explaining his Sony lawsuit.
• On February 19, 2011, Hotz started a blog about the Sony lawsuit.
• On March 6, 2011, the court issued an approval that Sony's lawyers were allowed access to all the IP addresses of all the people who visited geohot's blog for the purposes of establishing jurisdiction. Sony said the server logs would demonstrate that many of those who downloaded Hotz’s hack reside in Northern California — thus making San Francisco a proper venue for the case.

the PS3 is not a wireless telephone handheld and therefore is no fucking relation between the iPhone and the PS3.

But the Copyright Office concluded that, “while a copyright owner might try to restrict the programs that can be run on a particular operating system, copyright law is not the vehicle for imposition of such restrictions.”

A federal appeals court came to the same conclusion last week in an unrelated dispute about “dongles,” or keys that grant access to software. “The owner’s technological measure must protect the copyrighted material against an infringement of a right that the Copyright Act protects” 

In case you still don't get it, they are saying, "If you don't like your stuff getting hacked, put better security on it, don't come crying to the courts!"

@benjaebe said:

Geohot is being sued by Sony for what they see as a very real and very legal violation of certain terms of the DMCA. Whether you disagree with it or not is up to you, but it's not your whims that decide whether or not what he did was illegal or legal, that's up to a federal court.

" @benjaebe:   It's really not that hard to settle the horses mate.  This is flow of what happened.  Thanks wikipedia:-

 

• On January 11, 2011, Sony sued Hotz and others (including members of fail0verflow) on 8 claims, including violation of the DMCA, computer fraud, and copyright infringement. The law firm used by Sony is Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP. In response, to the suit Carnegie Mellon University professor David S. Touretzky mirrored Hotz's writings and issued a statement supporting that Hotz's publication is within his right to free speech.
• On January 27, 2011, Sony's request for a temporary restraining order (TRO) was granted by the US District Court for the Northern District of California. This forbade him from distributing the jailbreak, helping or encouraging others to jailbreak, and distributing information they've learned during the creation of the jailbreak. It also ordered him to turn over computers and storage media used in the creation of the jailbreak to Sony's lawyers. Professor Touretzky's mirror was voluntarily censored following issue of the TRO, but Hotz's writings and software have been mirrored elsewhere.
• On February 12, 2011, Hotz posted a rap video on his official YouTube page explaining his Sony lawsuit.
• On February 19, 2011, Hotz started a blog about the Sony lawsuit.
• On March 6, 2011, the court issued an approval that Sony's lawyers were allowed access to all the IP addresses of all the people who visited geohot's blog for the purposes of establishing jurisdiction. Sony said the server logs would demonstrate that many of those who downloaded Hotz’s hack reside in Northern California — thus making San Francisco a proper venue for the case.

 Meanwhile the DMCA case is looking less and less provable and Sony are going to pretty extreme measures to try and swing things in their favour, including but not only pushing for the case to be SF based on the subpoenaed IP addresses. "

Alright, forgive my mistake. Apparently people are debating the laws, however they are doing so incorrectly, given that they are wrong and there is no debate. The previous link will explain which areas you are wrong in and will answer your last paragraph. "

" @Pinworm45 said:

Alright, forgive my mistake. Apparently people are debating the laws, however they are doing so incorrectly, given that they are wrong and there is no debate. The previous link will explain which areas you are wrong in and will answer your last paragraph. "

You might wanna read the sections:

 (f) Reverse Engineering.— 
 (g) Encryption Research.— "

For your enlightenment:

a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention

So: Yes, there is a debate. No, your link did not settle the debate (at least not in your favor). No, saying there is no debate does not change the fact that there is, in fact, a debate.

Hey, we're into the ontology of a debate now!  I think this argument has evolved instead of devolved - love it when that happens!  I'll call it "The Debatrix."  "There is no debate..."

...guys, anything that has to do with the DMCA immediately throws any situation into a void between "legal" and "illegal."  The DMCA was badly written from the start.  It's extremely vague.  Courts are making up what this stuff means as they go, and sometimes the people involved have hardly touched a PC keyboard in their lives.  The LOC can do as much as possible to clarify things, but they're tied up in both politics and lobbying.  There's too much at stake for this thing to be perfectly fair.  We're discussing what's illegal versus what's legal without really knowing which end is up, with the determinant being the DMCA, a mass of confusion that doesn't know which way is legal.  It's unfortunate, but all we can really do is sit and watch for now.   Although I don't agree with what Anon did, at least someone out there's publicizing the view that what's "illegal" isn't always what's "wrong."  I don't always agree with that, but at least it's a check against a very one-sided argument.

" I just find Anon childish. "

i am sorry but i just don't understand the justification and rationalizations given to this issue, breaking the law is breaking the law, whether you agree with it or not. would any of you walk into best buy and steal games? if you answer no why not? because you would get caught and be arrested so what makes it ok to steal by downloading or copying a game?  nothing makes it right. 

Sony are bastards, but they're just looking out for their company; albeit in a heavy-handed way.

Anonymous are trying to fight for us, the gamers, but have a warped sense of morality and are kind of fucking it up a little with their destructive behaviour.

Either way, the regular gamers seem to be getting the raw end of the deal. Just like AvP, "whoever wins, we lose".

" i am sorry but i just don't understand the justification and rationalizations given to this issue, breaking the law is breaking the law, whether you agree with it or not. would any of you walk into best buy and steal games? if you answer no why not? because you would get caught and be arrested so what makes it ok to steal by downloading or copying a game?  nothing makes it right.  "

" Just like AvP, "whoever wins, we lose". "

" @Ste_Roids said:

" Just like AvP, "whoever wins, we lose". "

Bah, it's only minor PSN stuff.  Once GeoHot wins the case, everyone will be mocking the fuck out of Sony.  Microsoft and Nintendo will shit their pants when judges say it's legal to hack the consoles you buy, and Giant Bomb (along with every other gaming site) will have boards dedicated to hacking and homebrew, as the case will confirm that all of this is 1000% legal and green.The same thing happened to the iPhone sites when the jailbreak ruling came out.  Once it was confirmed it's legal, all the sites were like "YEAH GUYS YOU CAN TALK ABOUT JAILBREAKING AND NOT GET IN TROUBLE".   "

"

Just as an aside.  Investigations and stings take time.  Where I live, we just saw a secret 3 years drug investigation start making its first arrests.  These people though they were getting away with it.  They said, "Look were just doing our things and nobody is watching use."   However, they were wrong the DEA, FBI and State and Local police were watching.  The made 28 arrests a week or two ago.  Yes, some of those folks will plead out, turn over other bigger fish, etc.  Nevertheless, in the end they were caught, much of the property they own like houses, cars, boats are confiscated and will never be returned...and some dudes elsewhere up the chain would like to see them dead.

 

The people in 4Chan, Anonymous and other hacker groups likely think they are getting away with things now.  "Look nobody is catching us,” but you have to be a fool in the United States if you think the NSA, CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security isn't watching you especially when you publicly make threats.  The few kids in a basement who are not talking might be safe but if you blab on the internet after you manage to disrupt something...you are already caught -- you just don't know it yet.  In addition, attacking Multinational Corporation and shutting down servers then congratulating yourself publicly on US soil is just domestic or international terrorism, and that is just stupid.  And, if it is not yet - well, that is coming believe me.

 

In the next, five or six years three thing will happen:
- A huge hacker event will happen that does something normal people get affected by...power shut down, servers for banks & financial institutions brought down (i.e. domestic terrorism)
- People will freak and god forbid some people dies because the power was off or whatever, so much like 9/11 people will GIVE the powers-at-be the power to hammer down hard

- All these hackers who like to boast on the Internet will find themselves in a prison in Guam that is run like a f-ing nightmare

 

Nobody except their families and a few other hackers will care about these people.  Guam is far away.  The ones that do not shit their pants and blab everything them know right away will be tossed on a cell for a decade like what happened at Gunanatimo.  And, no they will not come out twice as smart or twice and dangerous.  They will come out hopelessly poor and messed up...and still being watched.     

"

" I just find Anon childish. "