Could someone explain to me where the rape stuff is coming from?

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#151 Posted by PSNgamesun (395 posts) -

@believer258: Again dude u keep at lol questioning ones intelligence; I have learned my lesson I shall use my periods, commas, and question marks now lol

razón por la que son tontos

Online
#152 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

Show me a male video game character who is ugly, not for comedic or intimidation reasons, and you might have a point. People don't want to look at ugly characters, period. Facial appearance is not applicable to this particular discussion.

You were talking about the sexualization of women and how it doesn't happen to men when it does, more often than you think as well. The discussion was initially where did all the rape talk come from and if it is applicable for Tomb Raider. If anyone derailed the discussion it was you.

#153 Edited by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@Grimhild said:

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

You don't get what "sexualize" means. Being attractive doesn't mean they're sexualized. Show me a mainstream game where a guy wears a banana hammock/half-shirt or something similar for any reason other to convey the "viking" trope.

Look, I don't personally have a problem with it because I understand it's the nature of the business, but don't tell me that male and female characters are equally objectified.

So your argument is that sexualization means revealing skin, and that's it? That's dumb.

Regardless, you're not going to find too many men wearing half-shirts, because men are not sexualized in that manner. Women don't see a man in a half-shirt and get girl wood. It does not happen. Look at Twilight if you want to see how men are sexualized for the feminine audience. Charming personalities, toughness, competitiveness, shirtless, handsome, caring, etc.

#154 Posted by sBlacksmith (77 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

Kratos is another example, but there's also the fact that he has threesomes with two women in multiple games(thus proving his masculinity and "superiority").

That is very much male sexualization, portraying them as having no other need than to fuck and you further validate this stereotype.. males that do not find satisfaction in fucking random prostitutes are seen as inferior.

Seriously..

#155 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

#156 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

I haven't played Prince of Persia, but a situation like that works. Kratos is another example, but there's also the fact that he has threesomes with two women in multiple games(thus proving his masculinity and "superiority").

As far as Raiden goes, the entire sequence with him nude wasn't sexualized as much as it was used for comedy.

As I said before, Japanese game developers tend to sexualize men a little more(a lot of final forms of bosses in games tend to be shirtless and ripped, etc). Even so, the inequality is there guys, I don't have a problem with it, I'm just pointing it out.

In Prince of Persia it is silly that he is taking all of his clothes off for no real reason. The slightest tear in his clothing and he rips it off.

So what if a woman was doing that? You are forgetting that Kratos has the power of a God. Aphrodite was doing the same thing. It's not proof of the portrayal that "MEN ARE SUPERIOR!" It's proof that Kratos has immense power but not because he has a dick.

We will not argue with the fact that women are sexualized more than men but that doesn't mean that men aren't exploited either.

#157 Posted by Heltom92 (704 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

Unfortunately the internet is full of double standards and sensationalism. Tomb Raider looks to be the latest victim.

This exactly. People seem to be getting up on their high horse over something that doesn't even really matter.

#158 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@sBlacksmith said:

@ChaosTony said:

Kratos is another example, but there's also the fact that he has threesomes with two women in multiple games(thus proving his masculinity and "superiority").

That is very much male sexualization, portraying them as having no other need than to fuck and you further validate this stereotype.. males that do not find satisfaction in fucking random prostitutes are seen as inferior.

Seriously..

That's male sexualization for the males benefit; it shows him being superior to two women. What is so hard to understand about this?@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@Grimhild said:

So your argument is that sexualization means revealing skin, and that's it? That's dumb.

Regardless, you're not going to find too many men wearing half-shirts, because men are not sexualized in that manner. Women don't see a man in a half-shirt and get girl wood. It does not happen. Look at Twilight if you want to see how men are sexualized for the feminine audience. Charming personalities, toughness, competitiveness, shirtless, handsome, caring, etc.

No, I'm using that as an example-a jumping off point, if you will. How many games have "sexy" men being rescued by the "superior" female? Again, not many.

It's not just about looks, it's about power dynamics. Most of the time, male characters are covered up and put in dominant roles, while female characters are stripped down and put in submissive roles. Look, I don't have a problem with it because of the nature of the audience/business/tropes, but don't act like this isn't a thing...because it is.

#159 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

I don't think people are arguing against it being uneven. I think we're just arguing that male sexualization is different from female sexualization. You're saying that men aren't sexualized because they aren't wearing skimpy clothing and pouting. I'm saying that you seem to have very little idea of what women generally find sexually attractive about men.

#160 Posted by zyn (2591 posts) -

...It's a game...

#161 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

I read that and he wasn't comparing the needle to rape or sexualization. It was used as an example of a male protagonist being put in a very brutal situation. Part of the discussion as well was women who are put in brutal situations and if that counts as sexually explicit. By using the Isaac example he was talking about how men are allowed to be put in this situation but somehow women aren't because it's sexist. At least that's what I inferred from it. He wasn't talking about how groping Lara's lap was the same as gauging an eye out.

#162 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@zyn said:

...It's a game...

Which we all just lost.

#163 Posted by Milkman (16535 posts) -
@Grimhild

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

The difference is that Shepard never walks around in his underwear.
#164 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@sBlacksmith said:

@ChaosTony said:

Kratos is another example, but there's also the fact that he has threesomes with two women in multiple games(thus proving his masculinity and "superiority").

That is very much male sexualization, portraying them as having no other need than to fuck and you further validate this stereotype.. males that do not find satisfaction in fucking random prostitutes are seen as inferior.

Seriously..

That's male sexualization for the males benefit; it shows him being superior to two women. What is so hard to understand about this?@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@Grimhild said:

So your argument is that sexualization means revealing skin, and that's it? That's dumb.

Regardless, you're not going to find too many men wearing half-shirts, because men are not sexualized in that manner. Women don't see a man in a half-shirt and get girl wood. It does not happen. Look at Twilight if you want to see how men are sexualized for the feminine audience. Charming personalities, toughness, competitiveness, shirtless, handsome, caring, etc.

No, I'm using that as an example-a jumping off point, if you will. How many games have "sexy" men being rescued by the "superior" female? Again, not many.

It's not just about looks, it's about power dynamics. Most of the time, male characters are covered up and put in dominant roles, while female characters are stripped down and put in submissive roles. Look, I don't have a problem with it because of the nature of the audience/business/tropes, but don't act like this isn't a thing...because it is.

In most games, the protagonist is put in a dominant role, while tertiary characters are put in submissive ones. In most games, the protagonists are males. That's the reason you see this so much.

You do have a slight point in that games with female protagonists often have you rescuing other women, instead of men. Can't really name too many games where a female character's sole mission is rescuing a man. Not entirely sure what this has to do with sex, but this conversation has gone to a weird place.

#165 Edited by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@Milkman said:

@Grimhild

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

The difference is that Shepard never walks around in his underwear.

Neither does female Shepard.

Also, wasn't there a scene in Mass Effect 3 with Kaiden and Male Shepard walking around naked?

#166 Edited by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

I don't think people are arguing against it being uneven. I think we're just arguing that male sexualization is different from female sexualization. You're saying that men aren't sexualized because they aren't wearing skimpy clothing and pouting. I'm saying that you seem to have very little idea of what women generally find sexually attractive about men.

I don't think so. I am a dude, yes, but I have studied, analyzed, and debated feminism and women's studies extensively. What I'm saying is that yes, some people find handsome men in suits sexually appealing. Some people fine handsome women in suits appealing. The suit is symbolic of a professional, a leader, of power. How many female characters wear suits? Some of them have alternate costumes, but let's say a game magazine did a spread to sexualize a female character; Odds are, she won't be in a suit(if she has any clothes at all). It's all about power dynamics: Some people find people in a powerful position sexy, some people find vulnerable people sexy. There are very few powerful women in non-skimpy clothing, and there are very few vulnerable men, period. That's my point. The end.

EDIT: I just realized that first sentence looks like "OH HOITEY TOITEY I'M AN EXPERRRRT MYAAAH." That wasn't my goal, I'm just trying to explain this is not my first foray into gender roles and how they are displayed in the media(to include video games).

#167 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

@Meowshi said:

@Milkman said:

@Grimhild

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

The difference is that Shepard never walks around in his underwear.

Neither does female Shepard.

Also, wasn't there a scene in Mass Effect 3 with Kaiden and Male Shepard walking around naked?

Well if you have sex yes. What I remember in ME3 is that if you were male Shepard even the after sex scene you were wearing absolutely nothing while female Shepard was wearing her underwear.

#168 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Meowshi said:

@Milkman said:

@Grimhild

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

The difference is that Shepard never walks around in his underwear.

Neither does female Shepard.

Also, wasn't there a scene in Mass Effect 3 with Kaiden and Male Shepard walking around naked?

Well if you have sex yes. What I remember in ME3 is that if you were male Shepard even the after sex scene you were wearing absolutely nothing while female Shepard was wearing her underwear.

I feel like this further illustrates my point, but I also haven't played the game so I should probably stop speaking about it.

#169 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

@Meowshi said:

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Meowshi said:

@Milkman said:

The difference is that Shepard never walks around in his underwear.

Neither does female Shepard.

Also, wasn't there a scene in Mass Effect 3 with Kaiden and Male Shepard walking around naked?

Well if you have sex yes. What I remember in ME3 is that if you were male Shepard even the after sex scene you were wearing absolutely nothing while female Shepard was wearing her underwear.

I feel like this further illustrates my point, but I also haven't played the game so I should probably stop speaking about it.

However in a game with no explicit nudity it's easier to hide male Shepard's nudity than the female's making it so out of necessity that female Shepard needs to wear something. But you could also say that they could have Lady Shepard use a towel to hide herself.

#170 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

I don't think people are arguing against it being uneven. I think we're just arguing that male sexualization is different from female sexualization. You're saying that men aren't sexualized because they aren't wearing skimpy clothing and pouting. I'm saying that you seem to have very little idea of what women generally find sexually attractive about men.

I don't think so. I am a dude, yes, but I have studied, analyzed, and debated feminism and women's studies extensively. What I'm saying is that yes, some people find handsome men in suits sexually appealing. Some people fine handsome women in suits appealing. The suit is symbolic of a professional, a leader, of power. How many female characters wear suits? Some of them have alternate costumes, but let's say a game magazine did a spread to sexualize a female character; Odds are, she won't be in a suit(if she has any clothes at all). It's all about power dynamics: Some people find people in a powerful position sexy, some people find vulnerable people sexy. There are very few powerful women in non-skimpy clothing, and there are very few vulnerable men, period. That's my point. The end.

EDIT: I just realized that first sentence looks like "OH HOITEY TOITEY I'M AN EXPERRRRT MYAAAH." That wasn't my goal, I'm just trying to explain this is not my first foray into gender roles and how they are displayed in the media(to include video games).

Don't worry, it didn't come off as arrogant or anything. You're clearly analyzing this thing on a deeper level than me, and I think a lot of what you're saying is right. I also think that games are slowly moving more toward realistically-portrayed females as well. I think the fact that Lara is being treated like a real person is a good thing, and that's why the controversy is so mind-boggling to me. I love the way she is dressed, I love the way she looks, and I love the grittiness of the trailer. I love everything about the trailer, outside of the actual gameplay. This stuff just looks fantastic to me, and I actually see it as good for the evolution of female protagonists.

#171 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@Meowshi said:

Don't worry, it didn't come off as arrogant or anything. You're clearly analyzing this thing on a deeper level than me, and I think a lot of what you're saying is right. I also think that games are slowly moving more toward realistically-portrayed females as well. I think the fact that Lara is being treated like a real person is a good thing, and that's why the controversy is so mind-boggling to me. I love the way she is dressed, I love the way she looks, and I love the grittiness of the trailer. I love everything about the trailer, outside of the actual gameplay. This stuff just looks fantastic to me, and I actually see it as good for the evolution of female protagonists.

Oh yeah, I love the new direction Tomb Raider is going. People who complain of Tomb Raider being sexist(to include Ben Kuchera, a man I respect greatly for his game views, but he should avoid social ones) just don't get it. I don't really have a problem with the Hitman trailer as much either. The series has always been about Agent 47 killing people, even women(and not to prove his dominance as a man, but because he is essentially a genderless weapon). Hell, Hitman 2 showed penis if you scoped onto a dude's crotch while he was peeing(not the same as our dicussion, but it's an example of I/O doing shocking things just because.

#172 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

the problem isn't sexism, exactly, but rather the aspect of her being made into a realistic and 'human' character. Having a character which does get sexually harassed, but not touching on it in some small way, would be kinda... dehumanizing. It all depends on how the slow moments of the game are, to me at least.

#173 Edited by believer258 (11663 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

Well, I did talk about the needle going through Isaac's eye but I was comparing the abuse that Isaac goes through to the abuse that Lara goes through in general, not the sexual abuse in particular.

As for sexualization of male characters, there's less of it but it's still very much present. You're going to tell me that Prince Charming Nathan Drake was not created with sex appeal in mind one bit? It's definitely more prevalent with female characters but it does, indeed, exist with male characters. Remember that women get a little bit more from a charming personality than men do. Generally, anyway.

If you want to talk about sex used in horrifying ways against men, we could always derail this thread completely and discuss Alien and Aliens. Could be fascinating.

#174 Posted by pekoe212 (435 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

Well, I did talk about the needle going through Isaac's eye but I was comparing the abuse that Isaac goes through to the abuse that Lara goes through in general, not the sexual abuse in particular.

As for sexualization of male characters, there's less of it but it's still very much present. You're going to tell me that Prince Charming Nathan Drake was not created with sex appeal in mind one bit? It's definitely more prevalent with female characters but it does, indeed, exist with male characters. Remember that women get a little bit more from a charming personality than men do. Generally, anyway.

If you want to talk about sex used in horrifying ways against men, we could always derail this thread completely and discuss Alien and Aliens. Could be fascinating.

I think we need a clearer definition of what "sexualization" is. It is not simply the appearance of someone attractive. It's sexualizing their body and their person with their role, their clothes, their behavior. Their role is really important here. Women and their bodies have been sexualized beyond our comprehension over the past thousands of years. Their images, as sexual enticements, are used to sell everything from TVs to kitchen sinks. I don't want to get into this too much, but I think a lot of the kneejerk reactions people are having to Lara's trials and tribulations in this game are because of the traditional position of women, their vulnerability in society plus their over-sexualization. I am glad this game is being made, it's making me examine some of my gut reactions too.

#175 Posted by Grixxel (763 posts) -

@benjaebe: To sum up this thread, it's the internet.

#176 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

@Animasta said:

the problem isn't sexism, exactly, but rather the aspect of her being made into a realistic and 'human' character. Having a character which does get sexually harassed, but not touching on it in some small way, would be kinda... dehumanizing. It all depends on how the slow moments of the game are, to me at least.

That's not something we are gonna find out watching E3 trailers.

#177 Posted by believer258 (11663 posts) -

@pekoe212 said:

@believer258 said:

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

Well, I did talk about the needle going through Isaac's eye but I was comparing the abuse that Isaac goes through to the abuse that Lara goes through in general, not the sexual abuse in particular.

As for sexualization of male characters, there's less of it but it's still very much present. You're going to tell me that Prince Charming Nathan Drake was not created with sex appeal in mind one bit? It's definitely more prevalent with female characters but it does, indeed, exist with male characters. Remember that women get a little bit more from a charming personality than men do. Generally, anyway.

If you want to talk about sex used in horrifying ways against men, we could always derail this thread completely and discuss Alien and Aliens. Could be fascinating.

I think we need a clearer definition of what "sexualization" is. It is not simply the appearance of someone attractive. It's sexualizing their body and their person with their role, their clothes, their behavior. Their role is really important here. Women and their bodies have been sexualized beyond our comprehension over the past thousands of years. Their images, as sexual enticements, are used to sell everything from TVs to kitchen sinks. I don't want to get into this too much, but I think a lot of the kneejerk reactions people are having to Lara's trials and tribulations in this game are because of the traditional position of women, their vulnerability in society plus their over-sexualization. I am glad this game is being made, it's making me examine some of my gut reactions too.

Yes, and Nathan Drake pretty much fits your definition of sexualization. Certainly he's a character but being sexualized is part of his design. It's not just his body, either, it's everything about him.

If you think that isn't true then I have some swampland I'll sell you.

#178 Posted by JasonR86 (9609 posts) -

@Milkman said:

@PSNgamesun said:

@JasonR86: stop it dude like every one here is not assuming that males dominate the gaming world so PLEASE sexist ME get the FUCK out of here cause go learn what the term means FUCkface n IF AM ONE based on my (trying to be funny)comment then everyone in this fucking FORUM including YOU are one

Is this some kind of code? PLEASE ME FUCK FUCK IF AM ONE FORUM YOU #e3mysteries

Agh! That's what I was going to do! Fuck.

#179 Posted by CustomOtto (454 posts) -

@CornBREDX said:

I think they are referring to the noises shes making, as if that really matters.

Really, people's complaining about this just seems counter to their problem. It was already said by someone before me, but they are just trying to fit women into their world view- regardless if thats opposing this or not- it'd be fine if it was a game about a guy having the shit beat out of him. No one cares about that. For extra safety lets make it a white guy- it's totally cool if us white guys get the hell beat into our face, right?

lol at this dude complaining out of nowhere about how hard it is to be a white guy

#180 Posted by CornBREDX (4821 posts) -

@CustomOtto: haha. ya I know. That's totally what he said right haha

So many words, I just took from it what I wanted haha. What a loser- we should keep laughing at his words. How do those work anyway?

#181 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Animasta said:

the problem isn't sexism, exactly, but rather the aspect of her being made into a realistic and 'human' character. Having a character which does get sexually harassed, but not touching on it in some small way, would be kinda... dehumanizing. It all depends on how the slow moments of the game are, to me at least.

That's not something we are gonna find out watching E3 trailers.

course not, just saying

#182 Posted by stryker1121 (1346 posts) -

@pekoe212 said:

@believer258 said:

@ChaosTony said:

@SethPhotopoulos: Derailed the discussion? Someone compared a needle going through Isaac Clark's eye to rape, as if that's an example of the sexualization of a male character. I was pointing out that it's not, and that there is inequality in how male and female characters are treated as sexual objects. This led to people saying "He's handsome so he's sexual!" and finding anecdotal evidence to "prove me wrong." I'm not trying to be right, I even said I don't mind sexualization in games, I'm just pointing out that it's uneven.

Well, I did talk about the needle going through Isaac's eye but I was comparing the abuse that Isaac goes through to the abuse that Lara goes through in general, not the sexual abuse in particular.

As for sexualization of male characters, there's less of it but it's still very much present. You're going to tell me that Prince Charming Nathan Drake was not created with sex appeal in mind one bit? It's definitely more prevalent with female characters but it does, indeed, exist with male characters. Remember that women get a little bit more from a charming personality than men do. Generally, anyway.

If you want to talk about sex used in horrifying ways against men, we could always derail this thread completely and discuss Alien and Aliens. Could be fascinating.

I think we need a clearer definition of what "sexualization" is. It is not simply the appearance of someone attractive. It's sexualizing their body and their person with their role, their clothes, their behavior. Their role is really important here. Women and their bodies have been sexualized beyond our comprehension over the past thousands of years. Their images, as sexual enticements, are used to sell everything from TVs to kitchen sinks. I don't want to get into this too much, but I think a lot of the kneejerk reactions people are having to Lara's trials and tribulations in this game are because of the traditional position of women, their vulnerability in society plus their over-sexualization. I am glad this game is being made, it's making me examine some of my gut reactions too.

Yup..the over-analysis of Lara's moans of pain and the punishments she undergoes are part and parcel of a society that views women as poor, powerless creatures in need of rescue.

#183 Edited by Asrahn (552 posts) -

Slightly off topic, but I've always found that game creators tend to oversexualize and exaggerate character design to avoid having to put in too much work into story, background, character development, or personalities in general. Give a guy biceps the size of my thighs, a shirt that by all means should reduce his movement to stiff, twitchy spasms due to a lacking blood circulation, then preferably have him sport a gruff voice. Done, he reeks of "masculinity" already - no need to dwell into this further. Give a woman tits the size of her head, an ass the size of a bus, a revealing outfit, and voila - we got someone "feminine". The only thing I can complain about the new Tomb Raider is the fact that the voice acting sounds a little sub-par actually. I mean, even the evil henchmen, when kicked off a cliff, lets out a little shrill "Aaaah!" before falling to their deaths. Lara shouts, grunts, screams and so forth, but to me it doesn't sound like she's really there. It's immersion breaking. Lara's design is better than ever however. Edit: It appears my shitty work computer does not allow me any spacing. Goddamn it.

#184 Posted by CustomOtto (454 posts) -

@CornBREDX said:

@CustomOtto: haha. ya I know. That's totally what he said right haha

So many words, I just took from it what I wanted haha. What a loser- we should keep laughing at his words. How do those work anyway?

Haha, I know, what a dill that dude is! Just straight up brought up race to complain about how everyone picks on the ~white guys~ in a thread where nobody's even talking about race!

...

Wait a minute... it's you!! That's your post!! Oh, you!!

#185 Edited by Grimhild (721 posts) -

Damn, still going huh?

Unfortunately, some responses waiting in the inbox completely missed my point. Many assume that the standard for "sex object" or "sexy" etc. can be judged on the same merits for both men and women, which is not only inaccurate, but a gross over-generalization. As pointed out, sexualization doesn't explicitly require revealing or tight clothes. It's apples to oranges we're talking about here, which can be different for various people. The "banana-hammock/cut-off shirt" combo mentioned would fall under that hilarious "Awwwww... look, it's trying to mate" category for me, personally.

On a related, personal note, I think the males in Twilight are a disgrace to their gender just as much as whatever her name is to women. She's completely unable to exist without them, and they serve as nothing more than disposable, grunting pieces of man-muscle that dribble out terrible dialog written by a neurotic, perverted woman, who's trite writing is hardly worthy of airport romance novels. Of course, many women would disagree with me, but I know just as many that feel the same way as I do. Also, contrary to what someone stated earlier, my connotation of the "suit" is a sign of high self-respect or confidence, self discipline, and ambition. It has nothing to do with power or domination. But I guess everyone sees what they want, don't they?

I also find it hilarious that a few of you have told me that I'm wrong for seeing the male model they used for Shepard as a sexual icon. Stop assuming you know everything about women just because you're either A. White Knighting and thinking you're doing the noble thing, or B. Regurgitating what the professor in your Women's Studies class told you. It's almost as insulting as the so-called misogynists that you're trying to "protect" us from.

Stop sweating it so much and vote with your dollar if it bothers you. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to frantically refresh my inbox hoping for that Planetside 2 beta invite.

#186 Posted by Shady (503 posts) -

It really can't fuck it up as bad as Dead Island did. It wasn't just bad. It was offensive.

#187 Posted by NoRemnants (378 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

I too haven't heard or seen the proclaimed sexuality in any of the Tomb Raider material released thus far. The fact that people are even considering that Lara's struggles are being sexualized in any way is creepy as fuck. Seriously. Stop it. Y'all are being super fucking creepy.

Seriously though. A person who can't tell the difference between a woman moaning in pain and a woman moaning in pleasure (i.e. sex, if you're doing it right) need to see a therapist. The only way you could possibly misconstrue the intent of the sound is if you've got some dark sexual desires in your subconscious that're bubbling to the surface. What these weirdos are seeing, I don't see at all. I see a bad-ass survivalist protagonist. Something old school like out of a Jack London story, except the big twist is that it's Lara Croft.

The Grey featuring Lara Croft sounds great to me, and not sexualized at all.

TL;DR - stop being creepy you fucking creepers.

Everything this man said is the truth. I have nothing else to add, I just want to make sure everyone sees this.

#188 Edited by psylah (2162 posts) -

@NoRemnants said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

I too haven't heard or seen the proclaimed sexuality in any of the Tomb Raider material released thus far. The fact that people are even considering that Lara's struggles are being sexualized in any way is creepy as fuck. Seriously. Stop it. Y'all are being super fucking creepy.

Everything this man said is the truth. I have nothing else to add, I just want to make sure everyone sees this.

I agree with this. If they think the moaning is sexual WITHIN the context of her hardships, I'd assume they have a sadomasochistic streak. But, I think there is nothing wrong with sadomasochism, and I understand that some people do have a problem with it, but they shouldn't project the suppression of whatever sexual issues they have onto this game.

#189 Posted by psylah (2162 posts) -

Also, this rape stuff is out of hand. He touches her arm in a way that she did not appreciate, and she made her displeasure IMMEDIATELY known. I felt it was all appropriate when taken in context.

#190 Posted by prestonhedges (1965 posts) -

Games are written by immature people, and no one can trust them to do this shit right. Like does anyone actually believe that the writers of a freaking Tomb Raider reboot are going to write a poignant essay on strong female characters? Puh-lease. I bet there'll be a pre-order scuba-diving/bikini skin.

#191 Posted by DeF (4808 posts) -

this artificial controversy about the game is making me so mad, it's not even funny anymore.

I kept rolling my eyes last year when people made the porn jokes because of the moaning but this year it's gotten even worse with people seemingly not understanding a damn thing about how this game tries to reinvent the character.

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