BioShock Infinite: Infinite Spoilers!

If that's the idea, that each universe only exists starting from the point where a specific choice was made and not before, then it would definitely tie up a lot of loose ends in the story. However I don't recall any point in the game where that was stated.

@pattycakes: I didn't see it like that; I saw it like... Well, I'm eating breakfast right now, so let's just go with that.

You've got universes A, B, and C, and the only difference between them is that I chose cereal in A, pancakes in B, and waffles in C. Everything else is the same. All three of them always existed; they're not "born" from A or anything like that. When you're talking about infinite universes, how can one universe ever be the dominant one? I think they're all just dependent on each other, otherwise they wouldn't affect each other at all anyway and then the whole story is moot.

But let's say you really, really wanted to stop me from getting a balanced meal this morning because I'll just be too productive for the rest of the day. So you hop back to the moment right before my choice in Universe A and you rush into my house and just fucking stab me to death then peace out through a tear. Well, I didn't choose that, so there are no universes that cover "what if chose not to get stabbed to death?" and there are no universes to cover "what if you chose not to stab me to death, you dick?" because man, you weren't even supposed to be here.

As a result of you murdering me in Universe A just before I made that choice, universes B and C can't exist now either because now I'm dead before the branching point. If something changes in one, the effects ripple through the others accordingly. That's why dudes in one universe in the game would "remember" their deaths in the other universe. The effects ripple. So by killing me then, you've eliminated universes, but you didn't create any new ones.

That's just how I see it though. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm no quantum mechanic.

...Maybe the inspiration for the three Founding Fathers (the sword, the key, and the scroll) came from GB's Lincoln Force's Abe Lincoln. It's the twisted imagining process that came from one idea, that spiraled to this monstrous, hyperbolic, and utterly nonsensical take of America's history.

Or maybe not. Whatever.

I'm not saying any single universe is dominant over the other, I'm just saying they are completely unaffected by one another. The problem is that what you're describing, in my opinion, is not an infinite universe, it's finite. By using the branching timelines to describe this game (specifically the diagrams on this site and others), we're setting finite limits on the universes.

Using your example in an infinite universe, you could go back to before you made your lunch choice and kill yourself, but you would only be effecting a single timeline in a single universe. Whichever choice you were eventually going to make in that universe (A, B, or C) wouldn't come to fruition, but there would still be infinite other universes you'd have to travel to and do the same thing, some of which you might not even live in the same house or even had died years prior.

In the end, I'd have been much happier if this game had spent the time to lay out the rules through which its universe works. Perhaps a side quest with the Lutece's where they provide some perspective. This game appears to work more under a finite, branching, alternate timeline theory and not an infinite one. I'm just arguing semantics now so I'll shut up.

@pattycakes: It's cool; all valid concerns. I feel like I understand something new every time.

So I guess it's like, yes, there are infinite universes because there are infinite choices that have infinite branches attached to them (I always visualize in my head like a tree branch that just goes on forever) but only a finite number of them are actually relevant. If you only wanted to stop this version of me from eating breakfast, then you only need to stop that one branching point. But if I underestimated just how much you want to prevent me--like any form of me ever--from eating breakfast, you'd have to go back further and probably just kill me the second I was born otherwise, yes, it would be impossible.

They briefly entertain that in the game, where Booker's like "FUCK IT, I'LL SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE HOPPING THROUGH UNIVERSES AND KILLING ALL THE COMSTOCKS EVER" before Elizabeth is like "God, you're dumb, Booker. There are infinite Comstocks."

I mean, yeah, the only way the story makes sense is if all the universes depend on each other, which is weird, but I don't think that means it's finite. It just means that all the universes are set in their ways, each operating with its own set of choices, so under normal circumstances, stuff in one universe doesn't affect another universe because, in a way, it already has affected it by the mere fact that they all exist. My cereal universe co-exists with the pancake and waffle universes because they are all separate; in fact, the reason why they exist is to be separate. It's once you start tearing through space and time and fucking up all the rules like Elizabeth can, that's when the universes being dependent on each other starts to matter.

I think.

They probably could've spent more time discussing it, but I think they do talk about it quite a bit, and I only got like 50 audio logs out of the 70 or 80, so there's probably some really significant stuff left. And I do like that they leave it open enough that like five days after I beat it and a couple days into my second playthrough, I'm still chewing on it and going over it in my head and finding new things out about it and discussing it on the Internet with tons of people who are all doing the same. When was the last time a game did that?

So the player's understanding of the story is dependent on how many collectibles they found. I think if this game didn't have "Bioshock" in it's name, we'd be criticizing it for the same reasons you're complimenting it.

@pattycakes: I don't think the BioShock name carries that much weight. BioShock 2 obviously didn't get the same respect even though that game, despite all the hate it gets, is great.

Personally, I think it's kind of cool to be finding new audio logs on my second playthrough that give me a greater understanding of the world and the people who inhabit it. It keeps it fresh. I can see why you might think it's annoying not to have the whole story delivered in one go, but great movies do that all the time and are better for it.

I can't tell you how many times I've watched Donnie Darko, but I feel like I find out something new and totally insane about it every time, just by noticing something in the background or a random piece of dialogue I didn't really pick up on the first (or second or third) time. In fact, that movie actually has a lot of similar stuff to BioShock Infinite going on.

But movies are 100% linear and games are not, so I think collectibles actually contributing something meaningful for a change is interesting, if nothing else, and takes advantage of the medium. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it.

Though boon is really abrasive in this comment, he/she's got a point somewhere in there worth noting.

Against Brad's point he said about Infinite making the events of BioShock 1/2 never happen I don't think that's really what happened, Elizabeth said in every timeline there's always a man, a city and a lighthouse. I think by getting rid of Comstock it only lead to a world where Andrew Ryan made Rapture, as the new man/city/lighthouse what have you since Comstock won't be around in any timelines at all to create Columbia and try to baptize the world with fire as he wanted Elizabeth to do.

Isn't Half Life 2 a Bioshock game? There's a City, a Lighthouse and a Man...

Man I had no idea you could actually combine vigor's for effect on enemies. I played through the entire game on hard and never realized this, they really should have of had a point early in the game that drove this fact home a little better.

@pattycakes said:

I disagree. There are plenty of movies or books out there that provide more insight or knowledge of what's going on if you rewatch it and/or argue about interpretations with others who saw it, so I was impressed that a game was able to give off the same vibe. (Seriously, I started replaying again on 1999 mode and with the knowledge of what was going on, it feels as if it's painfully obvious and even throwaway dialogue makes much more sense.)

The story isn't dependent on it at all. I wasn't completely paying attention to everything during the first half of the game, and I only collected about 50 of the voxophones, and while I had a bunch of questions, I still very clearly got the gist of what was going on. Furthermore, there are plenty of people who don't care about the details, so I would rather have more voxophones to find or learn about to fill in the blanks than be forced into about 12 more of the ending infodump cutscenes interspersed throughout the game.

Finally finished this last night. Really don't know where Brad was coming from - I thought the idea that Booker/Comstock's entire life swings on him having a religious experience to be totally believable. Him being absolved of his sins and then set on a righteous religious path puts his past and future in an entirely different light. Religious experiences can be powerful things, especially when accompanied by prophetic vision and his obviously increasing megalomania.

And it's not like Booker showed that much empathy to anyone besides Elizabeth or otherwise spoke out against the racism/class warfare in Columbia. As the player we were disgusted by the dark aspects of the city, but I don't recall those translating to Booker. He was just a cold-blooded man on a mission for almost all the game, coming to terms with his guilt but also fully acknowledging the need to do some terrible things.

I Just finished this game like not even 5 mins. ago... and I can see where BRad was coming from onthe podcast last week... you need awhile to digest everything that happened,but wow...I kinda saw theBooker/Comstock connection, but HOW they connected the dots, man... wow... I need a moment.

@patrickklepek or anyone. I'm at the End of Wolves in the Dark Tower...Should I keep going after what was talked about during this show??

Anyone poke at the idea of the lucette twins not being twins- but rather a male and female version of the same person?

I found it kind of funny that the crew reacted like people in the comments do on Quick Looks.

That's completely addressed in the game. The Lutece twins are in fact male/female versions of each other.

The part that really killed me about watching the songbird death was, as it was dying, a little sister was mourning a dead big daddy behind it in the distance.

Also, I enjoyed that when people speak to you they call you Dewitt, which sounds identical to "do it" which turns several of the things they say into commands similar to phrases that might in other universes include the phrase, "would you kindly." I don't think it was intentional, but still interesting.

Man, the ending totally mindfucked me. Wonderful game, though.

I don't know if i just didn't notice while playing, but i cant seem to remember having that bandage on my hand that Vinny had. Is this something that can change, or did i just not pay enough attention during my own playtrough ?

@saik0u: When you're at that ticket counter early on where the guy is calling a hit on you and you're asking for gondola tickets, if you demand tickets instead of pulling your gun, he stabs you in the hand. After that part, there's a really tender scene of Elizabeth ripping off a part of her dress to wrap your hand in.

It's a video game?

I did have it, but I got it from a certain part of the game where you had to make a decision. There are not too many of those (two or three?); it's the one where you're at a counter and the guy makes you wait. You get to decide to wait or be aggressive or whatever.

I waited patiently. It resulted in the guy stabbing me in the hand. I liked the bandage though.

I agree with Brad completely on the ending and didn't see what the other guys were saying (around 30 minutes at least). I think they made it pretty clear that they were trying to fix the Comstock problem for good. I didn't get any implication that it was going to continue in the other realities. That's what sat bad about the ending for me.

so uh, why does elizibeth kill the booker thats experienced all this stuff? he's clearly not going ot become comstock. wouldn't you have to kill past book, the one way back then? also if there are infinite universes as the game is so fond of pointing out, whats the point of killing one booker? and again, why kill the booker who's clearly not going to become comstock.

also, if booker never becomes comstock then elizabeth could never go back and kill booker to prevent him from becoming comstock so then he would become comstock, so then elizabeth could go back and kill booker, but then it resets. its a stupid paradox loop. the story is a paradox loop, you're not preventing anything. its ultimately completely pointless.

time travel plots are stupid, i dont know why this is so praised story-wise.

He will become Comstock. Elizabeth can not just create tears to other universes, but also time. This is very clear the first time you see her opening a tear to Paris. There are cars driving and Return of the Jedi is advertised on a cinema.

She took Booker back in time to the place where a Booker became Comstock. There are different universes, but they are connected. By taking him to that time and killing him, he cannot become Comstock at that specific point.

Brad was completely right that there is not just one universe created good by this action, but all Comstock's everywhere have never been born because of this. Elizabeth already explained Comstock being dead didn't matter, because he lived on in infinite other universes. She even clearly says they need to kill Booker to avoid Comstock ever being born in every universe right before they drown him.

I was kind of surprised Brad was the only one who understood this. It's pretty clearly explained.

Either way, yeah. Booker rejected the baptism so he didn't become Comstock. But Elizabeth took him to the place and time where he did accept it and drowned him before he could.

Handymen fall over in like 10 seconds with Charge fully upgraded. Also, spamming the energy core with Return to Sender charges, Winter Shield as gear, Possession for Less, Shock Jockey made the final battle a one time thing, with no deaths on 1999 mode.

I never imagined that Rapture was Columbia in another reality after watching this for the second time. lol.

I'm glad it wasn't just me who struggled on this last battle for a little while. I got very frustrated.

I loved how this video was put together. Having the guys comment on the game live while one of them is in another room finishing it is pretty clever. It would be awesome for this to be a regular feature on the site.

What I took from the "Infinite Lighthouses" and "Infinite Realities" was that every person that plays through Bioshock Infinite is actually playing it simultaneously with everyone else, making it this pan dimensional multi-player game.

So if you could see far enough during the lighthouse scene, you could see the actions other people took on their play through of the game.

Whether it's what they wanted you to realise or not, I thought that was a pretty cool little idea

It's really hard to not post a last fight strategy.

Possession and Shock Jockey all the way. Fully upgraded Possession is great on the rocket launching enemies, and Shock helps with crowd control. Sniper rifle isn't bad against the Motorized Patriots as long as you don't look down the sight. It's also excellent against the early waves, when it's just generic Vox.

There, I posted it.

Contextualized.

Finally just finished this game! Now I can watch this, two hours you say? Let's do it.

Patrick (as many others) mentioned the rumored Songbird cry in the original BioShock. Although I haven't heard anyone else mention the decor in the lighthouse from the first BioShock.

I think BioShock: Infinite is a great bookend to the BioShock series, and a great bookend to this current console generation. Hopefully this isn't the last of the *Shock series. Maybe the next cycle we will see a SystemShock 3?

I was surprised that none of them talked about using traps. Finishing the last battle on hard shock traps were key. I used them to slow down the patriots and enemies while I could focus Songbird on the white zeppelins. Still on hard those patriots take a ton of bullets to go down. I loved the traps after a while on hard.

Yeah it's a shame for him... I always play 'with' the game.

The set up with Vinny playing and the crew chatting about it was great though. :)

Not to mention the fact that he seems to find narrative paramount in most games he plays. So weird!

I thought it was odd that only Brad latched onto that. It isn't like the story was at all coy about the fact that this was THE point of change, not just one potential outcome.

Yeah, except this is Vinny knowing full well he's on camera with a bunch of people watching and probably wants to entertain as his producer instincts tell him to. Who knows how Vinny plays games when he's not making something for GiantBomb.

Wow, just getting to watch this now, and they really did NOT get the ending, except for Brad.

Vinny acts the exact same way I do during important scenes.

Jeff doesn't like Weezer's Pinkerton? Jeff, who hurt you?

And you ever notice how Jeff interrupts Patrick pretty much every single time he's well into saying something insightful?

Just finished Infinite and this was a great show to come back to, at first I was like meh, Inception + Lost = Bioshock Infinite but I liked hearing about the discussion of what could've been more, it made it more fascinating hearing everyone futz it out.

@pimpsahoy: I hope so please

I take issue on Patrick's complaint about Bioshock having to be a "violent shooter". As Jeff said, if there is a happy middle ground between shooter and point and click adventure, what is it? So it's not your job to figure out that problem, but it is your job to point out that it's a problem? It's just so much easier to sit back and call out problems rather than come up with solutions. Sure, nobody is paying you to design video games, but they are paying you to comment on them intelligently. Why not challenge yourself and offer up better ideas if you find issue in something. If not, you're a part of the "self fulfilling prophecy".

Personally, I take the inverse of Patrick's comment. My problem is that I don't think a creative figure like Ken Levine should be forced into making something in a way he doesn't want to. I always favor creative freedom over financial gain, but I'm a consumer. At the end of the day, if the publisher isn't happy, the game doesn't get made at all. I'm really happy Infinite got made. It's not an easy situation.

Anyway, this was a great video. I loved having Vinny play the end without the others being able to constantly stopping him to point out some random thing. It was so much more natural this way. Also, what a fantastic game. Parts of the end story are a bit sketchy logic wise, but that's standard fare for story/dimensional play. You always know a game is great when it can bring out this sort of commentary.