People should be discussing how unethical the Destiny DLC is (Old topic)

You hit the nail so hard on the head, the board you were hammering it into broke in Half.

@historyinrust: If I recall correctly, in Halo 3 and Reach when they added DLC, most of the playlists were still accessible, save for new ones they added specifically for that DLC. I do remember them running a bit slower, but nothing too drastic.

Its not ethics. Its just a bad deal, there is no moral angle to this. This can be reduced to: good deal vs bad deal.

- The game came incomplete and short = bad deal
- The DLC is not free to make up for lack of content = more bad deal

The original game was poorly made in terms of story telling and mission structure. Moreover, it came with a very shallow & limited amount of content in terms of map area and use of the same maps for multiple missions. That 's the crux of the issue. What is happening with DLC is that it adds insult to injury at this point.

Bungie has never been a company that apologises for its shortchanging. Once I realized this wasnt organized in a way I enjoyed I quit because its never going to become some other game. AC Unity is giving a bunch of substantial DLC away for its tech issues and Bungie is like "here is 45 minutes of story mission and 2 new raids, 20 dollars". And they can do that because a bunch of people are always gonna be willing to pay them. So you can complain if you want, just have the understanding that Bungie is not ever going to adjust itself.

If you were still playing Destiny enough at this point that this matters to you, you should probably just buy the stupid DLC.

This games bullshit is getting called out by some: http://metro.co.uk/2014/12/10/destiny-the-dark-below-sort-of-review-below-standard-4981248/

You mean no content. I played during Lich King, and there was 12 months between the last raid being released and the next expansion.

Bliz didn't patch the game until ~1 month before the release of the next expansion. I heard it was even worse for MOP - 2 years between the last content and Draenor, because Draenor was delayed.

I've been a long-time addict of World of Warcraft. I've played off and on (mostly on, really) since it's release. I'm well versed in the whole 'expansion cycle' and i've seen my fancy raid epics become marginally better than random quest drops five times now. But the thing is - that content is still there. With few exceptions (Vanilla Naxxramas was removed, Blackrock Spire was changed to be level 100) most of the old raids exist as they were when they came out. If I chose not to buy the recent Warlords of Draenor pack, I could still do all of the weekly and daily quests and content from Mists of Pandaria.

That said, I suppose WoW still costs more - $13/month and $40 every two years for expansions - and we get a new chunk of content every 3-6 months or so, usually a big raid, a couple dungeons (strikes) and some daily questing stuff. Bigger than what Destiny offers (on what I assume will be a 3 month cycle) but I never felt that WoW was essentially forcing me to keep up. I don't have to do those new raids as they come out, and I don't have time limited one-weekend-only rep grinds because the old quests don't end. And when they do remove old content, either to retune it for a new level cap, it's usually YEARS later.

I suppose my problems with Destiny are BECAUSE I play WoW. MMOs have evolved based on player feedback, whether it was direct, or a developer adapting based on subscription figures. We MMO players tend to be creatures of habit, and expect certain standards to be present in every game - things like player trading, voice chat, some kind of group finding tool, etc. It seems like Bungie didn't really look very closely at this aspect, and didn't look into how MMOs have evolved over the last ten years, or the mistakes they made along the way. So for me, Destiny feels like a game that is half-assing it, both as a cooperative shooter and as an MMO, because it beats you over the head with the MMO treadmill when you play it as a shooter, and it hamstrings you with the inability to trade and coordinate (possibly with the intent to stop RMT) when you play it as an MMO.

I don't play Destiny so take this with a grain of salt... but wasn't this DLC billed as an expansion? In expansions, everyone who doesn't move to the expansion always has an incomplete experience. If you played vanilla Starcraft after Brood War came out for instance, you'd be playing in a ghetto with a handful of people. Kind of incredibly crucial if you enjoyed playing Starcraft to get that expansion. Now while I know that the Destiny expansion has far less content than Brood War did, it's also way cheaper than BW was.

Nah that's not how expansions work. Like you can still play WoW without the latest expansion and nothing has been taken away from you. You just can't get past the old level cap and you can't do the new dungeons and raids. You can still do daily dungeons pulled from a list of the ones you have access to.

Even if you had vanilla SC after BW came out, nothing was removed or locked from the original game. You just didn't get access to the new content. What's happening here is that certain events/playlists of the base game are being locked because you didn't buy the expansion/dlc. And this is just dlc, it's not an expansion. They can call it that, but it's just DLC.

i know Destiny isn't a MMO, but it seem to be. in other MMO styled games is this behavior common? if so could you argue that the player would in a sense be expected to see this comming, i don't know how World of Warcraft handles these things, but i would assume that you'll have to buy the newer expansions to continue playing the game, i wonder if the same logic could be applied here.

They said 10 years of Destiny, we should assume that means alot of changes to the game and the matchmaking in those 10 years, but World of Warcraft has massive expansions that are far and few inbetween, if Destiny excludes players from matchmaking each time they release a "small" bit of DLC, how much would they eventually exclude the player if they released a World of Warcraft styled expansion?

Nope it's not common in other MMO's. WoW doesn't make you buy new expansions to keep playing, you just don't get access to the content of the newest expansion, but they don't restrict access to any content/modes you had before that expansion was released. Blizzard have actually been giving away free upgrades to the Mists of Pandaria expansion and all the ones before it, but even before they did that you weren't locked out of playing the game or any of the content you already had just because you didn't buy the latest expansion.

If they plan to release these smaller DLC (they're not expansions at all) then it'll take about 4 of them before the ratio of original strikes and DLC strikes tilts in favour of the DLC ones and people will run into this problem a lot more if they don't keep buying the $30 DLC. A "big" WoW style expansion for Destiny will just be Destiny 2.

Reach was that way. But you aren't recalling Halo 3 correctly. Any playlist with rankings became exclusive to DLC players. There was a Social Slayer playlist that stayed open, and a Social Big Team playlist that remained accessible. Literally every other playlist changed to accommodate the new content, which resulted in locking out non-adopters.

I think you mean seppuku - sudoku is a puzzle game. However, I'm going to caution you to stop with the suicide jokes right now. That kind of thing is inappropriate and unwelcome on the forums, even if you are kidding.

@john1912: That about sums it up for me as well. I didn't get addicted and sold mine about 3 weeks after launch but I almost feel embarrassed that I supported this game from early development. To me, what was lauded was not what was delivered. Bungie has completely lost me as well.

And because the first one sucked

Geez, I guess I had assumed the dailies and weeklies would just show up as one of the "core" missions if you didn't have the DLC-- that's the way it is with the Vanguard vendors and "regular" vs "expansion" item sets they're selling, right? I certainly hope so!

I mean, taking away a feature you already had access to and then making you pay them more money to get it back is pretty close to the line as far as "a bad deal" vs "something that should actually be illegal" goes.

The one thing that mitigates this a little is the fact that the dailies/weeklies won't be expansion content every time... but that doesn't eliminate the issue. In fact, it'll just keep getting worse over time!

I wonder if Bungie have plans to make expansion content available to everyone after some particular length of time has passed. That's the way it worked with most of the Halo games' DLC, and it'd be even more important in this case, to avoid reaching the point where people get so far behind they feel like they can't even play the game anymore.

Get better, Destiny! This shit ain't gonna fly for ten years.

Id say it is ethical, they did disclose prior to release that their intention for Destiny was for the story to continue in DLC as part of like a 10 year plan. It may not be the most consumer friendly model, but it's at least ethical in the sense that they did disclose their pricing model for the DLC prior to release.

Fair enough. I probably didn't notice it because I tended to play Social Big Team after the first few months.

That being said, the fact it was in Reach and they didn't think to add similar playlists in Destiny is crazy.

I'm really quite amazed by how many folks here are completely missing the point.

If you frame the discussion in terms of an FPS, then yeah it's kinda bullshit. If you look at Destiny as an MMO, those are constantly evolving and changing over time, and content that might be available to play at launch of the main game, may not always be there as expansions (or DLC w/e) come out. But why would you care about continuing to play Destiny if you have no intention of purchasing the DLC? Like, what's the draw to keep playing the base game?

It's possibly unethical but I think the actual harm done is pretty limited. Engaging in these treadmill activities seems only to be sensible for people interested in Destiny's endgame, and the endgame now lies in the DLC. Ultimately very few people would be in arms about it if people hadn't felt disappointed by the game in the first place, which is the real sticking point.

I wish people wouldn't support DLC like this, especially when Destiny is less than half of a game already. Now it's just becoming less of a game because of how it'll lock everyone out of multiplayer scenarios. It's manipulative and gross.

It's Activison.

@humanity: it's also stupid on the pricing, Brad has said it seems over priced at $20. Here in the UK, it's £20, which is about equal to $30. The tax difference is considerably less than that and most games and DLC are priced accordingly but Activision don't feel they should bother to price appropriately.

This behaviour is in keeping with their overall attitude with the base game, the have removed more content from the base game than they have added. Even after mass criticism of the the amount of content in the base game.

The have over charged for a tiny amount of additional content and to encourage the players to buy the DLC, locked them out of some of what little was in the base game.

It's hard to see they're justification for continuing to abuse their player base, that will only decrease over time and only faster with each piece of bad news that comes out. It's a credit to Bungie that they can make a game that plays so well that people are willing to take the amount of crap that we have had to endure.

@jesus_phish: but they said 10 years of Destiny? we would assume that meant Destiny 1 with just alot more content, i'm not sure they meant new games you have to buy, just new content. Now i remember that xbox 360 games did this too, well not right away like Destiny did, but after some time, like a few months i think they would change their playlistsm so you couldn't join if you don't have the DLC for that playlist. I remember Gears of War 3 did this, and one of the main reasons to play GoW is the multiplayer, whether co-op or competitive, you can't play some of the playlists without the needed DLC, altho you can just host your own games on the maps that are not part of the dlc, in that sense you're not locked out of content.

I haven't played Destiny so i don't know how the strikes are handled, but in any game with multiplayer, the online bits are eventually going to be shutdown so you would eventually be locked out of that content, that being said, i think they might have rushed their change to the playlists a bit too soon, they would eventually go to the place GoW is now, where you can't play some playlists without the DLC, but yeah, they might have locked people out too early.

Bungie doesn't seem to know what an MMO is. I understand and believe that games don't need to stick to a status quo, but there are certain things that are expected of the genre. MMO staples like heavy exploration and a wealth of content are missing from Destiny. They also seem to lack an understanding of what an expansion is. An expansion simply expands on the original content, it doesn't replace it. Sure, expansions may leave older content useless, but that's done by the strength of the new content and it is ultimately up to the players to abandon the old content.

I think unethical is a pretty strong word. I mean I certainly wouldn't want other studios adopting this form of DLC and by this DLC I mean a shit amount of content for the price you pay that locks you out of old content if you don't buy it. But in the end these are just video games and if you felt strongly enough to write this maybe its time to move on from destiny. Maybe come back a year down the line and see if they fixed their mistakes or wait and hope destiny 2 turns out better.

This is a lame excuse. It is a poor MMO and a decent shooter, I don't see why the number of people complaining about its poor features makes those poor features GOOD.

Like, don't be ignorant, there are tons of people who hate it who have played and enjoyed both MMOs and Shooters. I am one of them. I am also a huge Halo and Marathon junkie. For me Destiny is the most frustrating disappointment in a long, long time.

Its not an excuse its how MMO game design works. You have to put in long grind time sinks so people don't just blow through the content. Throwing smaller incremental updates out there in between the bigger patches. If you don't constantly have that carrot on the stick in MMO's people lose interest and quit playing.

So if you make up stories in your head?

@vampire_chibi: They've already confirmed a Destiny 2, or at least big expansions like WoW. They've said they intend for characters to be transferable between the changes. When Activision trumpet the "10 years" thing, they mean 10 years of Destiny as a brand.

It's about ethics in journalism DLC.

@tehpickle: So kindly tell them what the point is.

Do you find it unethical for businesses to try and make money? A company is obligated to make money for the people in charge. Call Destiny's DLC a shitty value for the customer, but it's not unethical.

Making money in of itself is not unethical. The way you go about trying to make said money can very easily become unethical. Blocking off parts of the base retail package in order to goad people into purchasing additional content, just so they can reclaim access to something they already had in the first place, does seem to be crossing into the unethical regions of conducting business. They are quite literally taking something away from you and saying "if you buy this DLC you can have it back, if not you will continue getting inconvenienced."

Someone who just bought Destiny this week and is only beginning his adventure, who won't even be eligible to do the raid anytime soon but might be able to do dailies or even weeklies, will suddenly boot his game and see that half of game is blocked off because he didn't go out and buy a DLC pack along with his brand new game. You are essentially asking people to spend $80 in order to experience everything in the $60 game. When the second DLC comes out newcomers will be required to spend $100 in order to experience everything in the $60 game. So yah, that does seem a little unethical to me.

@hunkulese: this isn't an MMO.

I was highly upset that when I turned destiny on yesterday I couldn't do daily weekly or nightfall all locked behind dlc. Now I understand they want to rotate new levels, but why have all 3 be dlc at the same time. I did buy new 32 gloves, I've been stuck at 29 for long time. I'm interested to see if I will be able to get to 32 without buying dlc, if so that's something they messed up. Borderlands made it so you had to buy certain part of dlc to get more levels. The idiots at bungie finally changed vendors equipment and just put level 32 stuff up for sell. I am sure this was a mistake on their part.

It definitely seems like for all the talk I heard leading up to this game's release about it being an enormous event, it's a pretty thin package. Not only that, but they continually seem to add as little as possible in order to charge for new content.

The discussion in this thread about Destiny's expansion content in relation to it's status as an MMO or a traditional game is interesting. I've heard that Destiny will be supported "up to 10 years" but has it been explicitly stated that Destiny will have sequels or will the base game be continually augmented with content that adds planets and raises the level cap over time?

@brendan: They officially stated that your characters will carry over to Destiny 2, which they also openly declared that they're working on. It seems a little nuts to boast about cool new weapons and concept art you're working on for a sequel when the major complaint people have with the base game is not enough content. So the 10 year plan is likely to be spread between 3 games and several DLC packages. If this works out great for them financially I see no reason why they wouldn't continue the same practice of nickle and diming people for content and then gouging them with DLC packs.

As for the game being an MMO - well it's not despite what many people are trying to claim. It's still a typical console shooter with very limited, fringe inklings of what an MMO is. It's like you showed someone who primarily deals with first person shooters an MMO for about 10 minutes, and they went off to make one on their own with that very limited impression of what it an MMO actually is. They get it - you gotta group up to overcome hard missions, and there are currencies and guilds or something, and apparently a lot of repetition - ok yah I kinda see how this works. Destiny lacks all of the good parts of what makes a massively multiplayer game. There is no exploration, no intricate social hooks, barely any customization, no scope, no breadth of content and missions to choose from. I mean there are no race specific qualities for goodness sakes and the classes all have very little bearing on PVE apart from what your super does - ultimately though if you want to raid then everyone just plays Warlock because it has a self-revive ability that trumps everything else.

There is a world of difference between something being a poor product and something being unethical.

@bofooq: Sure seemed like an MMO to me.

Vote with your dollars. Or pounds, or rupees, or whatever bones you got.

You are misrepresenting what goes on in WoW. You can play WoW today without having bought the "Warlords" Expansion but you are heavily gated off. You can't use the latest "queues" and the "legacy queues" may behave oddly. A lot of the "old content" does still exist but it has been radically retrofitted into the new "engine" which you only have partial access too without fully purchasing the expansion. All "assets" are in the global and local files which are available to all players. What isn't available to all players are the UI elements. To suggest a player who only has "Pandaria" will not notice much right now is not true at all. They can play but are going to be working around a lot of blocks.

What happens regularly is they "catch up" a bunch of the old content so new and returning players don't have to buy 5 expansions to get the current content. This isn't impossible for Bungie to do where they just need to repackage it in the story as a big bundle.

But that said, the way Blizzard does their releases is they release a lot of "major updates" for free and charge for the minor things (pets, mounts, services). Blizzard hasn't charged for instances or raids and probably won't for now. Selling instances and raids is something Bungie should have stayed away from just for their sanity let alone the buyer's let alone that Bungie is already on shaky ground right now with the amount of content available where releasing more free would do a lot for good will.

Put $20 in your savings accounts people! Or buy Guardians of the Galaxy or something.

Don't support Bungie in their time of greed. Wait for Halo 3 Bungie to come back.