GiantBomb ladies, are we overreacting to Quiet in MGS V?

Right! She even has a bag over hear head so she can't make facial expressions and head movements showing she's willing to talk. Maybe its me, but this whole lapse of logic with the torture bothers me more than her slutty choice of clothing.

Mute sniper lady in a bikini and torn stockings? Hot!

Torturing the mute sniper lady in a bikini and torn stockings with a bag over her head? Well thats just illogical and stupid.

I mean metal gear solid is the game that has an overtly sexual vampireman who never wears a shirt. It has a fat guy on ROLLER BLADES who places bombs all over the place. It's got a cowboy possessed by a britishmans arm (NANOMACHINES). It's got snakes gloriously modeled ass, personally i don't think i could fight in a combat suit that hugged my ass so tightly, but perhaps i'm not half the man snake is. It's got robot mech things that MOO at people.

I think a bikini sniper mute lady is a bit nitpicky when you suddenly pick something dumb out of a dumb series. It'd be like me going to Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome and saying its sexist cus tina turner is wearing one piece sparkly bathingsuit the entire time.

It is a total natural reaction because of our instincts,. Big breasts still represent healthy reproduction just like hips do the same. Men will look at it because of our instincts and you really can not do much about it. Some will look at it less then others but again everyone will look in some way. Also I do not see how breast are not social acceptable to show. But again I live in Europe and for the most part it is fine. If she wants to show her breasts because she is proud of them she is totally fine to do so. Yes you do not walk around naked in public for the most part but if you are on a beach it is totally fine and natural for the most part and not disrespectful at all. People need to understand that breast are no genitals or sexual organs.

I...I don't know what I want anymore!

How?

Just throwing this out there.... As a straight male. I'd probably have sex with Ryan Gosling....Just saying....

If you have big hooters, men will want to reproduce with you.

How? It hard for me to explain in english but a kid needs breast milk and big natural boobs are a sign for that in our nature. Just like hips are an indication for that. There are a lot of studies that show how man unconsciously look at these spots first on a women. Also smell plays a big part in how people chose their potential partner at first sight.

Isn't that logic working backwards, though? Like you'd say that, I'd ask why, then you'd respond with @darji's statement, which I am now questioning.

Kojima should just say 'suck it' to the fans overreacting or make a pr answer that means about the same. And it is an overreaction cause they'll still buy the game like the sheep they are.

Why does even the hint of sexuality absolutely send people bonkers? There is arguably nothing more natural in life. It's not like most games provoke you in a direct manor with said sexual-ism.

There's a lot of sides to this that makes it a hard answer. Is it ok for someone to dress like that? Sure, why not. People should be allowed to dress however they want. Fuck norms and standards and fuck ideas for what a woman, man, or anyone else 'should' look like. It's up to that person to decide how they look, not society. man!

Is it ok for a developer to create a character that is dressed this way? Sure, why not. Creators of all types can create whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone in the process (and I'm not talking about hurting one's sensibilities).

Is it sexist? It depends on the person looking at it. I don't know if it is or not. I've heard the word sexism so Goddamn much I can barely tell you what it means anymore.

Is it ok to criticize this design? Yep, it's ok to criticize anything.

Is it ok to stand up for this design? Yep, for the same reason as the criticism one.

Should this game and character be censored? No, fuck censorship.

Jason, do you think this character design look really silly? I do! But, honestly, it doesn't look that out of place considering this is a MGS game.

I don't know. I do know that I get checked out a lot by guys, though.

Except they aren't.

I'd love for the breast, the organ designed to nourish an infant, to not be considered a sexual organ here in the US. But that currently isn't the case. Media (and also the censorship thereof, ironically) deserves a good deal of the blame for that.

But the reason of instinct is no excuse. Sex is necessary for the continuation of the species, but it isn't necessary for daily existence. Food and urination, however, are, and there are acceptable and unacceptable times and places in which one can take care of those needs. The difference between an infant and an adult is that one doesn't care when they address their basic needs, and the other does. The difference between a slut (the genderless form) and a lady or gentleman is one doesn't care with--or, more accurately, at--whom they fulfill their sexual urges or if their fulfillment is respectful, and the other does.

To be honest, I hadn't really heard much of a fuss about the character until people started making a fuss about how some people were making a fuss about the character. heh. I had definitely been hearing the usual groans that come with Kojima saying something, but outside of a little criticism, I hadn't seen anyone actively up in arms about it. The fervor which people here have suggested that no one should care about it feels far more fired up than those somewhat concerned by it. I mean, just look at this poor thread. It started with a rather popular sentiment, that maybe people were overreacting, and the thread didn't derail because women who vehemently disagreed came in. It derailed because people came in and vehemently suggested that the whole thing was stupid and no one should be saying anything about it at all. And woe on anyone trying to get female members' opinions on this.

It's like a case of "me thinks [some gamers] doth protest too much". ha. I mean, we should be able to ask, "Is there something amiss here?" even if our resulting answer is, "Nah, it's fine." To me, it's just more of the same as far as Kojima's games; so, it doesn't particularly concern me. But then, even thinking about it is apparently a position one must defend. Considering it is apparently bad enough. People are so defensive of even the slightest consideration. Gamers often disagree on everything in games. From how well they play, to the aspects of the characters, down to even the inherent quality of an entire game. Yet, we can't possibly disagree on the appropriateness or problems we might see in characters? Even if I don't agree that this is a big deal, I believe we should be able to disagree on that. Shouldn't we?

Discussion and disagreement is good, and we often have it around here. Why then can't we disagree on this aspect of a game? Personally, I'm going to wait until I play it to really make a final decision on her character, but if someone else feels they don't need to wait on that, well, they're free to feel that way and express themselves. Why are we so afraid of people even talking about this? It's a part of gaming. This is talking about another part of how games are made and the aspects of the resulting work. I think we should be able to discuss this, and it's only a shame that so many continuously set out to hinder our ability to do so.

Well not really.

Women aren't disrespecting other women by showing off their body. That's kinda crazy. Bodybuilder dudes who are proud of their muscles that walk around shirtless strutting around like roosters aren't disrespecting people by showing off their stuff. Same thing with women. Sure it may make women who don't look as good feel bad, but thats not their fault. Also it's easy to assume that someone wearing a revealing piece of clothing wants people to look. If you wear an outfit with lots of cleavage, then people are going to look at your cleavage. It's not disrespectful at all.

Also, its weird you're trading in goofy light hearted teenage detectives (hardy boys) for ultraviolence and rape (clockwork orange) given the context of this thread.

Load bearing equipment/gear/vest!

@truthtellah: It's got a few snarky comments like every other forum thread in existence. It's not sabotage or a conspiracy. It's the internet.

@clonedzero: Next time you meet a woman whom you feel is intentionally exposing cleavage, ask her specifically. I grew up with seven sisters, and my closest friend is a woman, and I guarantee you that ninety-five percent of the time they are not expecting or intending for people to derive sexual enjoyment from their choice of shirt. Now, to be certain, there are women who do. There are some who attempt to use their sexuality as a tool. The woman who helped me while I was looking at a new watch didn't put her elbows together and lean forward with the watch between her cleavage and myself by happenstance. But I walked away when she did it, because she demonstrated that she had so little respect for my intelligence and self-control that she assumed I could be persuaded to purchase something because there were tits in front of me. And if a woman isn't intentionally exposing cleavage, what right do I, you, or anyone else have to rob her of her dignity, even unbeknownst to her, by fulfilling a bit of our sexual urges through her? If a man isn't intentionally accentuating his buttocks, what right do I, you, or anyone else have to steal his right to his own body, even unbeknownst to him, by satisfying some of our sexual urges through him?

My choice of The Hardy Boys was perhaps a bit off, since it's innocuous in its vapidity. While A Clockwork Orange contains a good deal of horrific content, it addresses it solemnly and maturely. Most video games today don't touch the really dreadful stuff since they're content to float among the jetsam of immature violence and boobs without any real discussion.

EDIT: But I should probably leave this thread. I "just had to" reply to this one guy, but I stayed for three posts. So much for letting the Giant Bomb ladies have a thread all for themselves ...

The problem is that we had to try to have a thread like this at all after the main thread... was what it was. And less than the snarky comments with their popcorn and silliness, it's people just coming in to dismiss even the idea of having some concern or talking about it. As Milkman noted, you even get derailed into a weird situation where you're seemingly more invested in something you aren't that invested in. For example, I'm not concerned by this very much because it's just more of what Kojima has always done, but people are so vehemently opposed to even considering discussing it that I feel pushed into defending those more concerned about it.

This discussion should rather easily be "Yeah, I guess it's a little concerning" VS "Nah, seems harmless enough, or it's just more of the same", but it's more like "Yeah, I guess it's a little concerning" and "Nah, seems harmless enough, or it's just more of the same" VS "Stop killing this industry with your censorship and monstrous interest in thinking about the decisions game developers make!" And then with the simple request for Giant Bomb women, you get guys spilling in from the other thread to say their peace here. It's a mess.

To me, this whole Quiet thing isn't a big deal, but the problems many people have with others even considering that there might be a concern here or elsewhere is a big deal.

Also, since I didn't mention this before, that is a perfectly natural reaction to Ryan Gosling.

The character's design fits with the precedent set throughout the series. MGS is like a comic book, extreme, ridiculous, and over-the-top. Meh. I find it more distracting when self-serious games like Halo make Cortana's DDD-breasts flop around and make her more and more realistic looking.

However, I think this character's design is visually unappealing, not to mention that I think the character and her outfit are both unattractive.

Doesn't matter as long as she is a well developed character.

Welp, tried to have a little real discussion for a bit. Knew that was a bad idea.

Threads like this make me want to never, ever read threads like this, or really any other ones. Giant Bomb used to actually be different than the rest of the flamewar igniting meme posting pointless cesspool internet.

It's changed.

@mlarrabee: I never said it is necessary but looking at these things is in our natural instincts and we can not really do much about it since most people do it unconsciously . Of course the media and companies are using this to sell stuff but that does not change how we look at people in our daily lives. Ethically what these companies and media are does is not really correct but it is understandable. A market goes after what sells and sex sells almost everything. Sex in general plays a really big part in our life.

Again I disagree with you here. There are several studies about this topic. And I saw several documentaries and tests about this on german TV and these participants reacted exactly like that. But science is always a matter of opinion and different views so if you think it is like that you are totally free to do so I look at it differently which makes none of us in the end right or wrong.

@darji: I consciously don't do it. At the risk of sounding a pretentious prick, controlling our baser instincts is what makes us civilized.

GAME OVER MAN!

I bet if us rational people ignored the irrational people and just talked amongst ourselves the irrational people would lose their control over these topics and the rational people could actually have a good conversation.

Hey, I'm rational and left a post on this page! Comment on what I said and we'll discuss causing a trend!

People need to seriously shut the fuck up about this sexism stuff. It's really getting out of hand. Hideo Kojima has earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his characters. And even if he did just create that character to be eye candy, who cares? You all need to chill out and go and white knight issues that actually matter, or are significant. A soldier lady wearing a bikini is not some earth shatteringly devastating thing...

I don't happen to hold your same opinion on this matter, but I can understand where we may differ in perspective. I hope you can acknowledge that my concern over this does not in any way require that you share said concern; I aim only to express my opinion on an aspect of a game and the process by which characters like this are designed. :)

Word.

Straight up.

Love the design, have no issues with this type of stuff, I kinda wonder the reaction would be if the designer of the character were a woman though.

She'd get praised all day every day for making a "strong sexually liberated (hence the desert bikini) character that don't need no man."

It's not my fault that you felt yourself in that phrase ;) The idea is simple, what are you doing here is far away from fighting for equality.

All the acting is bullshit because no such topic will ever change, whatever keeps the industry gaming floating on the surface, or any other industry. It's getting shittier when some people believe that they can give orders to others, also what to do in this case and they overreacting - you are contradicting yourself from the very beginning. That kind of specie who called me a douche, she could say it directly without explaining why she made me a douche, like her first world problem is the topic's demography and her life will get better if she would accomplish whatever the hell she is trying to. Some of you are being like her "oh, what a bad topic, it's worse than when my puppy died"... "my life was depending on this topic, now I am angry" I can't even imagine someone getting really angry (you getting red, trembling and sweating ?) in front of the laptop/PC because of this reason, like you have no other problem at all in reality. All your justifies/opinions are amusing me, but I still don't come here and pee with acid on the way you express them. Nowhere says that we are not allowed to make fun of this topic, so, I don't know why you keep coming with this cheap morality to tell me in a nice way to fuck off and never write here - not to mention that we are strangers, you should realize that you can't just tell someone what to do. Talking about responsibility - funny. Using such big words, does not spice up your replies. People like you should be your first concern. Then you come with the other bullshit "we are fellow dudes/ human beings in reality" I tell you what, mister human being, do a private topic where you and all your fellow dudes can lick each other's butts with the same opinion, so you will not be disturbed at all, while scrolling down and suddenly your retina stumbles into my posts. I am not replying to you anymore, you understand everything I say just like a brick.

Well. Okay...

See you around I suppose.

@artelinarose said:

Hi5 - one of the best posts I've seen on these forums.

@missacre said:

What an awesome exchange. Thank you, missacre.

Yes you do. You just don't realize it. In the documentary I watched people were surprised by it because they thought they never looked at it but they did. But again some some do it more and some do it and do not even realize or want it. We are controlling some instincts some more than other but stuff like the motherly instincts or the one I mentioned we can not really control.

Yes, yes there's a lot of overreacting when it comes to characters in videogames. Remember Dante recently? A young, happy-go-lucky punk kinda guy who had some fantastic nude scenes and people were just furious. Oh wait, that wasn't about how the teenager was sexualized, that was because his hair was shorter and darker than normal. Or something like that, it's hard to care about these things for me.

While everyone mentions Raiden's nudity in MGS2, the only thing I've found kinda weird about this series was how you could pull the bosses from MGS4 into that surreal photo studio and make them pose and take pics of them; with random moaning sounds in the background. And by weird I mean it stopped me briefly and made me think. Is this necessary? What is it even about? I don't know - but it didn't stop me from having fun with the rest of the game.

Basically what I'm saying is Kojima is a special kind of crazy and if you don't like it because you think he endangers your reality and mental well-being, I'd suggest not purchasing the games he makes.

@geirr: Yeah, they were revolting around because Dante looks more European.

That's why these topics shouldn't be taken in consideration, in order to fight for equality, one gender must not step on the other gender and sink it. I never saw a woman saying how disgusted she feels by male nudity in video gaming, because that gives the impression that stereotyping and labeling will be balanced temporary if the same issue appears on male characters. I played the entire Saints Row IV naked and nudity in video gaming is funny. If someone is disturbed by female nudity, at least play with both card decks on the table.

I think on face value it's easy to get upset by this design, but people should really wait for the game to come out and see if it properly contextualises it. Taking either the stance "Maybe she's just a sex-positive character" or "This is degrading for no reason" makes points based on a narrative we know almost nothing about. Compare and contrast, as an example, Zooey Deschanel's manic pixie dream girl character in 500 Days of Summer; from the trailers you could easily get annoyed by the idea that she only exists to serve as an idealised fantasy for the main character. Deconstructing that is in fact the main crux of the story.

But eh, whatever, i'm not a lady. To be honest I feel bad for even interjecting but I figured i'd make my point.

I took one look, chuckled, and went on about my business.

Every fart and shout gets analyzed and everyone's a critic. I'll see it when I play it and even then, art is art and while I don't like a lot of stuff other people might draw or animate it is not my place to go crazy about it. As long as it doesn't hurt me I don't care. And no, contrary to all the drama, a digital videogame character that looks like Quiet isn't even on my top 100 of worries list.

If anything I'm more offended by all the stereotype big buff spacemarine types than the ladies nowadays. If only for diversity sake.

But if it's art, then it's expected and rather good for people to respond strongly to it. Your place as the audience -is- to go crazy about it if that's what a piece might conjure up. Art loses all meaning if there's no response. Then it's just a pretty/ugly thing. Art is communication, and people having a response is sort of the point.

This "every fart and shout gets analyzed and everyone's a critic" is part of videogames being seen more as an art form that can be looked at from every angle. That everyone can be a part of the discussion, not just academics. Videogames are art, and while it's a less harmonious progression than the gaming community just staying how it has been, it's a good and natural progression. As a wide variety of people come to understand and care about games more, we're going to have more of this, not less. This is the future of gaming. And while there will likely always be those more invested in it(like those more invested in any art scene), more and more people are going to weigh in with their different perspectives on every aspect of games.

I'm not always going to agree with what people think about a game or what concerns them, but that's okay. We're all different, and the more different we become and the better we understand every aspect of games and the impact games can have, the more conversations and arguments we will have over our various views on everything within and surrounding videogames.

In this particular case, I'm not that bothered by something that seems in line with how Kojima has designed almost every female character before her. His preferences are rather clear and unwavering. I think his frank comments about her design were striking though. And I can understand why some people have had a stronger reaction to his comments than I might have. It's alright if others feel that something is especially wrong here, and I'm glad to discuss the topic if others care enough to do so. Kojima is an artist, and what he creates just begs to be responded to. So, if people want to feel strongly about even a small aspect of his latest game, whether they are concerned or defensive about it, I say more power to them.

@truthtellah: I can't tell if you actually give a shit or you just like to talk a lot.

That outfit is the most stupid thing I have ever seen. You can see for yourself that supply belt must immediately chaff and hurt, and where is her protection when she dodges and rolls? Hell, bare skin to get cut and bruised everywhere, and her boobs will pop out. My guess is she really does notdodge and roll or anything like it in this game. Probably has some ability like chameleon, her skin changing is her protection. Perhaps some weird power she has will be jack-wired in to make her near omnipotent..

But that is the strangest thing I have seen threatened to a MGS game. Why? Not a lady.

this is all for you guys. i hope youre enjoying.

There are way more lady posters on GB than I thought.

I'll be a lady too:

Quiet's (really, a mute character named "Quiet" oh boy..) character design is pretty obvious pandering. It's unnecessary and even insulting to the intelligence. What it's not is sexist. Honestly now, every character in MGS - male, female and vampire-clone-cowbrainedcyborgwhatever - is pandering, unnecessary and insulting to the intelligence to some degree.

As far as I'm aware (MGS games have been stuck in my backlog since the first "Solid" iteration came out, I'll play them someday!) no one comes to this series for the mature story line. It's a big, fat, flashy spectacle. And Quiet seems to fit right in indeed.

If you're particularly offended by her, voice your opinion, don't buy the game and do what you can to make the industry better in your eyes by all means. Just remember that not everyone is offended by this, nor shares your sensibilities, nor should they.

There's room in the world for a little pandering, superfluity and intelligence insulting. I'm certainly not above enjoying some occasional B-movie quality story telling and titillation. I can also appreciate when something is truly meaningful, poignant and mature. I would never give up one for the other.

This whole "sexism" and "misogyny" in video games seem to be a purely American and English phenomena. I've seen nothing of the sort outside these two countries.

I'm gay, so my opinion may not mean much. But a video lady who is scantly clad, or weak does not make me think women are weak in real life. It's just a character. I wasn't offended by Thomas in Deadly Premonition, and let's face it, he was a negative stereotype. I laughed at it. There are plenty of strong females in our world, Hilliary Clinton, Madame Curie to name a few. So I'm not really sure as to why people get upset at things like this in games. (Anytime I mentioned this opinion elsewhere, people called me a misogynist)