Giant Bombcast 498: Cat Spanker’s Alley

@indigozeal: Man, you are a master class in missing the point.

Ryan Davis used a homophobic slur on a live stream once. Too bad he was a homophobe, based on your assessment of people.

@glcfranky: The universe you live in. It's why creative works like South Park can be in production for over 20 years.

@matiaz_tapia: for what it's worth I thought the design was good, it's the writing and voice work that made that character aggravating (although not the worst thing in the world or anything that severe)

oh no more drinks on the table? who split?

Ryan instantly knew it was wrong, was immediately contrite and apologized, and the incident was removed from the program. He treated the incident with the gravity it deserved. Furthermore, it was not part of a pattern of behavior on his part.

Also: using the memory of Ryan to defend calling someone the n-word? Good God.

You need to consider: why is this the thing that gets you going? Why is the ability to call somebody slurs and face no repercussions the thing on which you're hanging your identity, knowingly or not?

(The same goes for @chicken008above, who seems disturbingly hung up on the ability to aim invective at Jewish people in particular.)

On the current episode of Waypoint Radio, they have a discussion about the impact slurs have and how many of them had the same attitude toward slurs as you did when they were younger. (There's also a bit on why using slurs does damage even if you don't think you embrace the views that produced them, which, based on your comment above, is an issue you seem to have trouble recognizing.) I disagree with Austin on his approach to many things. But I think you could benefit from this particular program.

@bendik_solbakken:

I think I know where you are coming from and I don't think it is a bad place, but I have seen this kind of argument used to excuse people from accepting responsibility for doing terrible things.

I'm a black dude, I don't get offended easily. But dropping that word in the way that he did is just not acceptable. Using that word the way he did, with the speed and venom that he used it, says a lot. I don't understand why people then feel the need to come out and defend him like he is some kind of baby.

He can defend himself, he doesn't need the internet's help. What he said was disgusting and I would expect anyone of my friends to understand why that is .

If you say racist things and then people call you a racist, what complaint can you really have?

If he doesn't want to be called a racist, maybe (regardless of his supposed "context") he should stop saying racist shit?

I know people can do and say stupid stuff (lord knows I have) but at some point he has to accept responsibility for the garbage that flies out of his face. "I didn't mean it like that" is not an excuse. Saying "I'm not a racist" is not enough to convince me of that fact.

I know you feel an affinity for the guy and feel that he didn't mean it. I get that. But you have to understand how utterly offensive this is and why people have every right to be upset.

Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. If you say things that make people angry, people will get angry.

As I said. I see where you are coming from, I get it, people are quick to freak out about everything these days, but this is pretty bad, right?

@sammo21: You should go read Patrick's article on this thing. He even addresses the Ryan Davis thing that so many people jumped out from the bushes to mention to him.

The main issues with PDP is that he keeps messing up and doing "jokes" that are racist. And this latest incident was not a joke, but him using a racial slur that his brain came up after he wanted a stronger alternative for "asshole". That's a problem. Look - he probably isn't a malicious racist and if he agrees with that assessment, then he needs to do some rewiring in his brain so he doesn't keep doing these kinds of mistakes. I haven't watched his apology video because I don't really care enough - but when his fans do it, I hope they pay attention to if it actually seems like he'll do some thinking about why he made the mistake in the first place instead of just apologizing and saying he won't do it again. His mistakes are a bigger deal than for most, because they go a long way normalizing that kind of behavior due to his huge fan base that mostly seem to consist of impressionable teens.

As for Campo Santo. Streaming games is a 2-way street. It generates revenue for the devs and the streamer. From a viewers perspective, them using DMCA in this case is not very good because it sets a bad precedent, but they're within theirs rights to do so *shrug*.

That's cool! Jeff and co are straight up wrong - wise cracking robots, Nathan Fillion and Tiny Tina are all good. Tiny Tina DLC was the best part of Borderlands 2.

meh, mr. p. d. pie can get fucked as far as i'm concerned- he's repeatedly fucked up and clearly doesn't have the maturity to handle the scale of megaphone he holds. there's no excuse- he should know better. as such he's fully accountable for whatever comes next.

a heartfelt-apology is the BARE MINIMUM expected when something like this occurs- but that only confirms that he knows he did something wrong. if he is sincerely contrite, how about donating a large sum of money AND time to an organization that works to change these attitudes/improve this world?

or you know, take a few weeks off and then get back to the very important business of streaming video games until your next fuck up. /s

@dunchad: I have no problem with PDP getting in trouble for this and I never really defended him. I merely said he screwed up and apologized for it. The only thing I will "defend him" against is the unethical DMCA take down threat from Campo Santo. This would be no different than a patent troll "using its evil for good". PDP apologized, and it seemed genuine, and he didn't seem to make any excuses for what he said. My point about GB bringing it up is that its largely irrelevant outside of the YT community other than the DMCA side of things. I don't think his behavior was normalized at all...just look at the reaction, even from people who defended him for stuff over the last year. The fact there was an immediate reaction to it shows its not normalized, in my opinion. I am sure that it sucked to be a black person who watched that stream and heard him say that, especially in the context he said it in.

I also agree about Tiny Tina. I feel people aren't nearly as outraged by her as they want to seem; its merely the internet, and people getting caught up in hyperbolic outrage so they feel like they are a part of something. Just like the Yoshi's Island arguments or Mario Sunshine...the internet and its communities make things seems worse/better than they always are. Just like with Destiny 1 and people who wanted to hate on it really hard without ever playing it.

@matiaz_tapia I liked Tiny Tina. Her DLC was awesome. She's barely a part of the vanilla Borderlands 2 content so no idea why people get so faux-outraged about her.

Best Bombcast in Months.

Thanks for the thoughtful and serious discussion!

Missed this kind of "meta talk" in the Podcast.

@ithmoliar: I really appreciate your reply. And I agree with everything you just said.

The word has been charged with hate for hundreds of years. So I understand that it must be a rough word to hear. Especially like this. I'm not defending the guy. I guess I just tried to hit the breaks a bit. Because there's a big difference calling someone a childish idiot and a racist. And being labeled a racist can be career-ruining. Everyone's so quick with tossing labels around. But yeah, you're right. If someone uses words like that, I also understand that people will call the person a racist. Because, well, that's what it looks like.

Free speech lets you say what you want. But you also need to be ready for the consequences, as you said.

And yeah, it's bad. There's no excuse honestly.

Side-note: I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, and I mean no offence. But by letting yourself get this offended by a word, don't you just let the word grow in power? If you choose not to take offence. Won't it loose its power over time? You can't control how others react or what they do, but you can control your own reaction to what the world tosses at you. That's fully in your own power. no-one can force you to feel anything you don't want to. At least according to Stoicism.

People won't stop using bad words.

But yeah. that does still of course not excuse what he did in any way. Just a thought.

I feel like the elephant in the room when they were talking about Felix is Nick Robinson, especially re: fake apologies that are more about damage control and minimizing the severity of their actions. Kinda wish they would at least acknowledge it considering they're all close to him. It would mean a lot more than Ryan's f-slur which was a one-time event he immediately and sincerely apologized for. When the people close to us exhibit a pattern of abusive behavior and don't atone for it or even act like they did anything wrong, we need to acknowledge it.

@bendik_solbakken:

Hey no worries. I don't think you are being a wise-ass and I think that is an interesting point. Generally I don't get offended by a lot of things, but there is something about that word and words like that, that make you feel like you don't belong. It's not that they make you feel like less of a person, its just that they remind you that you will always be different to the majority of people in western countries.

Being a black guy into geek culture, metal, punk etc, you often find yourself being one of three black dudes in a crowd of 1000's of white people. No big deal. You know you stand out but for the most part, no one gives a shit what colour you are.

But as soon as one asshole turns around and says something like that, you remember the inescapable context that is your skin colour.

It's annoying but sadly words have power. We live in a world where through the actions of horrible people, certain groups are treated differently depending on what are arbitrary differentiators, in my case, skin colour and hair texture.

You are constantly aware that your skin colour has connotations for other people. You try to ignore it and live above it, but it takes one dick head to remind you that (in our lifetime) you may always carry a scarlet letter for something that doesn't matter. And I'm not woe-is-meeing here, we all have our own shit to deal with, black, white, male and female.

I agree that everyone is too quick to shit themselves to death over everything these days and to be fair, I have only seen reasoned reactions from people like Patrick Klepek, Gregg Miller and Austin Walker (i'm sure death threats are being bandied about which is equally unacceptable).

But if you say some of the shit he has said and your career is ruined as a result, you have no one to blame except yourself.

Now there may be an element of him being extremely childish and needing to seriously learn that what he is doing is highly offensive. It might just be some edge-lord fuckholery that he needs to grow out of, but until such time, people are going to label him a racist and he has no one to blame except himself.

On the DMCA thing, I have no idea. I'll leave that to smarter dudes than I.

Nope. Cayde and Failsafe are the worst parts of that game. From what I gathered about Destiny 1 (the little I played and from what I heard about it) is that it was super dry. Going nearly all the way to zany wisecracking is not the way you fix that. There's somewhere between dry fantastic science and goofy fun time spaceventuring and Destiny 2 didn't reach it. It's fine, but they nearly eat themselves alive with all of the dialogue in Nessus.

You are right about the DLC in Borderlands 2. They actually tried to give Tiny Tina a little more to her character I feel it was mostly successful. That doesn't change the fact that that character is one of the worst characters in that game.

Hearing Jason's MHS minute man FUCK you 2017, stop with the shit I want to play already!

I'm actually pretty happy with the way Destiny 2's single player campaign played out. So many large games - think the Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls series - set up a cataclysmic scenario and task the player Chosen One to save the world/universe/dimension/etc. Then, the player gets to take their unlimited sweet ass time doing endless side quests, joining factions, resolving broken relationships of their party members, discovering interesting hidden truths, solving mysteries, becoming a trial lawyer (KOTOR!)… all while the apocalypse just chills in the background.

“We are all going to die and only YOU can save us! We have never faced an evil like this! Please, save us all… you know, whenever you have time.”

I feel like the Destiny 2 campaign actually made good on the existential threat premise in a way that other games do not. The Last City is destroyed. The Guardians are apparently extinct. Humanity is literally on its last legs while a supervillain drains the Traveler’s Light and prepares to detonate the Sun. There is no higher priority right now besides eliminating this threat. Soul-searching about the nature of heroism and the flawed “utopia” of the Guardian-controlled Last City can wait. Diving for lore and learning more about your NPCs can wait. Glimpses are fine - and they are given - but destroying Ghaul and the Almighty must be priority one.

And so the player reassembles a bare-bones leadership council, everyone formulates a plan, and the plan is executed. Earth and Humanity are saved. The Last City is refounded. NOW we can get down to all the side stuff.

That’s how the game content is presented, as well. As the guys mentioned on the cast, a bunch of stuff is locked until the campaign is nearly complete, or completed. Strikes are locked until late in the campaign. You aren’t guaranteed to get a Sparrow. New missions appear on each planet for further exploration, lore, and relationship building. It actually makes sense! I'm eager to get back to Nessus and figure out what happened to Failsafe's crew. I'm ready to mop up the remnants of the Red Legion operations in our solar system. But all of that was understandably delayed until the EXPLODING SUN was handled.

So perhaps a lot more interesting questions and lore will be addressed in future expanded content. As the game stands right now, that possibility exists. Hopefully Bungie will be smart enough to grab that opportunity.

I feel like the Pewdiepie stuff is real simple. Everyone knows what words are bad to say because they're racist and bigoted insults and which ones are just bad to say because they're rude. The Waypoint Radio episode talked about stuff they said when they were stupid teens like it's something everyone does, but whatever man, I knew what words were too bad to say when I was thirteen too and I never said them. (I messed up in other ways instead.)

And with the times this stuff changes as trans people or folks with mental disorders or whatever step forward and say which words they think are hurtful and what they'd like different stuff to be called, and maybe you don't interact with those communities enough to always be clear on what's okay to say. And there are some words that are ruder in that or this part of the world. There are a lot of cases where it's unclear how hurtful or rude something is, and you might step wrong.

But everyone knows the N-word is an awful thing you don't say. No buts about it. I'm Norwegian. Pewdiepie is Swedish, he doesn't come from Mars, he's practically my cultural neighbour and he knows it just as well as anyone.

@ithmoliar: Thanks, that was really well-written and has given me a lot to think about. And a new perspective. As I'm from a small town in Norway (like 600 people living here), this is the first time I've actually had a personal talk like this with someone of color. If that makes sense. I can see that actually applying philosophy in a moment where someone calls you the 'n' word won't always suffice. Something I know myself from being bullied as a kid and now working a service job. (obviously not the same as being a target of racism.) But sometimes shit gets to you even if you quote Greek philosophers to yourself.

I'm rambling now. I don't really have much else to add. But thanks again, and I hope you have a great day! You made this whole thing a bit more real to me. For someone so far away from everything.

@bendik_solbakken:

No worries, dude! Good thing about Giantbomb is that we can talk about these things and not tear each other to pieces.. Unless its about Dan, or back in the Patrick Klepek days or... oh snap...

@ithmoliar: Hahah, yeah. I love the goofball that is Dan though. And he has an amazing chemistry with Vinny!

had me in tears from laughing.

My first Bombcast with ads in a looong time. That CBS sponsored Star Trek thingy felt a bit weird.

Regarding forbidden words: Will Austin Walker ever refrain from using "Jesus Christ" as a curse? Will anyone at Giant Bomb? Will they ever empathize with how that pains Christians? Will they ever try to understand the lived experiences of Christians and stop invoking the name of their Lord as a curse? Of course not. Our culture has chosen what is sacred, and it is not Christ. Christians may be reviled and hurt. With Austin and his ilk, it always comes down to "Who, Whom." There is no principle.

@nesom:When I see the GB equivalent of an egg on Twitter accuse me of saying things I didn't say I can only shake my head. No one in this thread has said he should have the right to say it. No one is making the first amendment case (which is generally irrelevant) . I never even used the letters "sjw" in anything I've said in this thread. I never said he "should be allowed to say it without repercussion". Please leave the straw man arguments for Twitter where the outrage culture of the internet needs to stay. Also, leave the pseudo-intellectual attacks of "read a book sometime" for an argument where you aren't coming across like a raving lunatic. :| Comments like yours are why people can't have discussions online about stuff like this: you just turn into person who, in real life, would be screaming things on a street corner at passersby. If you have to preemptively apologize to the mods for something you've typed then that's probably a good indicator you're aware of what you've spelled out.

@dukeofthebump Nick Robinson IS something relevant to the game industry, which is weird when those things aren't discussed but stuff like PDP is. You can only assume its not being talked about because they are relatively close to him, at least in the point of him having a relationship with this site and several others.

@bendik_solbakken:

Long may they reign! Those two crack me the F up.

@redhotchilimist:

Yeah. I've been to Sweden a bunch of times for work and those dudes are EXTREMELY savvy to American culture. Most guys I have met in Stockholm know what is up and know 100% what is and isn't acceptable.

I agree about donating money and time-- he could easily at LEAST run a charity marathon stream for donation to the ACLU or something. And provide evidence of the full donation being received by the organization to the community. They like to see that result of their contribution anyways.

@mrcranch: I guess it's time to go here.

People using f- and n- are using a word whose express purpose is to denigrate a minority that has no choice in who they are: gay or black.

Austin saying "Jesus Christ!" is not meant to denigrate Christians. It's a figure of speech used in surprise or exasperation or alarm, much like "shit!" or "darn!" or "dammit!" or "oh fudge!" Nobody is being specifically attacked with the use of those terms.

Your choice to be a Christian and believe that the usage of "Jesus Christ" in that manner is sacrilegious is fine. So don't use it that way, and cluck your tongue at those that do. But remember: you being a Christian is a choice, and nobody is trying to specifically offend you.

The n- and f- words exist entirely to marginalize people. There's a world of difference.

@pokysharpy: I think your speaking on closed ears at this point if a person thinks he was right or ok to say or do what he did they will keep defending him. Im closing my other comments cause it seems pointless. I appreciate that their are people like you who in 2017 still understand simple things we learned in Kindergarten. Treat people with civility and your character is a measure of what you say and do.

So the real knock against Destiny 2 talk here; is the fear of Brad's potential incoming game of the year rant.. in 3 months? People find the weirdest grudges to hold.

@mrcranch: Those poor marginalized Christians, right?

@mrcranch: You know what? You pay for content on this site. You are well within your rights to reach out to the crew and explain this to them. They probably wouldn't listen. But you could try, at least.

But that said, do you REALLY think that this is relevant here? I mean, are you really drawing parallels between using, "Jesus Christ," as an exclamation and actually calling someone a racial slur? The two are not morally equivalent by any stretch of the imagination.

@indigozeal: Pretty sure you meant to tag someone else there, dude. I'm on your side here.

Brad saying "I'm hard on Destiny 2" just feels wrong. He died on the "get Destiny 1 on the 2014 GOTY List" hill. Maybe I'm not plugged into how hard people ride for Destiny (I've never played either and like Vinny, any time some one from the site talks about the game it sounds like a foreign language) but Brad would always "but well" when Jeff brought up things he didn't like about this new one. Brad is a super softy when it comes to Destiny.

@kevinwalsh: I think Destiny is just Brad's type of thing (it's mine, too). When a game fits your tastes and habits and desires, it's hard to back off on it, flaws and all. Sure, there are some things to nitpick, but it still feels like falling in love.

I absolutely COULD NOT STAND Super Mario Maker but it was like heroin to Jeff and Dan, despite the rest of the crew's pretty "meh, it's fine" response to it.

Sometimes you just can't shake a game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PewDiePie#Charities

@mrcranch: Two things:

1. Austin lives in a majority Christian country, he went to Catholic school, and I believe his family is generally Christian. In that, he's very close to the "in-group" when it comes to Christianity, which diminishes the impact significantly - and of course, I haven't really seen many contexts where phrases like "Jesus Christ" are used in a hateful, derogatory way or taken as such.

2. You talk of principle in these things, but the meaning of words (how heavy they are, how hurtful, how effective, etc) is based on social context and very little else. It's based on the social, economic, and political power of the groups involved, the specific position of the persons involved, the history of the usage of words, the history of the relative social and political positions of the groups involved, and so on and so forth. The problem isn't with using words that could potentially hurt someone's feelings, the problem is with using words that support and potentially exacerbate past hatreds and social injustices. And defining what that means can be really difficult - unless, say, you use the n-word with a clearly negative connotation as a white guy.

"virtue signalling" lol

@dr_insane said:

This is not weaponizing DMCA. This is DMCA being applied entirely appropriately. A copyright holder 100% has the right to selectively enforce copyright based on what a third party is doing with their content.

Trademarks have to be defended across the board, but copyright can be enforced entirely at the discretion of the copyright holder. They can request a takedown for 1 party, 100 parties, all parties, no parties at all, or any in-between. You may not like the reasons for it, but it's totally valid.

If that's what you took out of a long, reasoned, sensible discussion that says more about you and what you'd like to "signal". That the discussion deliberately and specifically did not say "there's never justification for making offensive jokes" means your opinion is incorrect. Perhaps you honestly misheard, misunderstood or misremembered that but it didn't happen. Others have already had a more informed discussion on what was actually said and have participated in a healthy and constructive debate. What you have then managed to "add" to the discussion is entirely unnecessary.

Everyone has an opinion and no one will stop you from using it, but perhaps just occasionally ask yourself it's really necessary before you take to that keyboard. You've done everyone involved a disservice.

@pokysharpy: It might be legitimate, but i would think it would be way more reasonable if Campo Santo realized that the footage was beneficial to both parties, and simply decide that they won't work with mr Pie in the future again. Now it comes across as a malicious way of saying 'we don't like you so we hurt you in the one way that we can' . I'm actually pretty interested to know if we'll see Campo Santo's next game on his youtube.

@onemanarmyy: Sean Vanaman fully owned up to his hypocrisy as he was tweeting about the takedown plans. I think he's just had it with PDP personally.

@pokysharpy: Well at least good to know that they're sticking with their statement. Still not sure how i feel about the initial takedown because it certainly did benefit Firewatch. The situation would be a lot less messy if they just decided to not let him monetize future Campo Santo games.

Also not a huge fan of threatening to pit more teams against Pewdiepie. I feel like businesses should decide for themselves whether they're willing to work with him. The bad stuff is out there, the good stuff is out there, let businesses make their own decision based on that. Of course, pointing out that he said this stuff multiple times to the unknowing is a good thing and will help businesses make a more informed decision. But I won't blame indiedevs for sending a code to him in the hope that their pixel 2d game will do better than 90% of the other 2d pixelgames. The competition is fierce.

I think Pewdiepie is a total turd. But I do dislike the culture of public shaming the age of the internet has created. He deserves it, but many who are publicly lambasted do not. There is a great OnPoint radio program about it from WBUR Boston. The court of public opinion disgusts me. The threats people receive for perceived slights or offenses are insane, and in often cases as bad as the crimes themselves. Colin Kaepernick has been scorched for his protest. A man who was falsely accused of rape received threats of himself and his family being raped to death... how does that jive? A woman made a joke about Africa and AIDS, and received threats to be raped and given AIDS herself... I wonder what the backlash is on Pewdiepie's twitter? I abstain from social media, so I don't know. I just think we need to be careful, and not always devolve into a mob mentality. I truly can't stand the right or the left... just people waiting to jump down other people's throats... foolish people tricked by their political parties. In the end, both parties want to blow up foreign peoples with drones. We have been fighting in Afghanistan for 16 years!!! The longest war in US HISTORY!!! WHY ARE WE STILL THERE??? We need to focus on the true evil of the Military industrial complex!

Sorry, that devolved into a rank rather quickly...

Listening to the guys talk about all the stuff regarding the PDP incident made me feel really happy and proud to be a fan.

as soon as anyone uses the term I do not listen to anything they say.

He's just saying he mostly brings up his issues vs going on about what he likes about he game so much.

Or just not talk or care about him anymore. That is a perfectly fine solution. Worked for me before that happened.

That is a personal issue and the people that are involved have dealt with it by now.