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Eight Women, Eight Responses, and One Dead Island Riptide Statue

A collection of reactions to last week's questionable marketing tactic from a variety of women in the video game industry.

No Caption Provided

Deep Silver likely did not anticipate the intense reaction to its UK-specific Zombie Bait bundle for Dead Island Riptide when it was announced last week. The news came alongside other bundles for the sequel, but the Zombie Bait bundle received attention for a statue of a torn apart woman that featured nothing more than her bikini-wearing torso.

Deep Silver’s issued a questionable apology in response to the furor. The company did not discuss how this bundle even came into existence, and still hasn’t said whether it will be sold or not. One would hope not? I’ve asked the company for further clarification on that point, but as of publication, nothing has come back.

Here's the company's previous statement in full:

“We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.

For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.

We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.”
No Caption Provided

The story featured my own opinion on the subject, as do most pieces of content on Giant Bomb. You might have suspected part of my response, based on previous articles I’ve filed at the site, and the reaction was along the lines of the last conversation about #1reasonwhy. When I was mulling a follow-up, I didn’t want to have the same back-and-forth, and hoped to introduce some new voices.

So, I reached out to a number of women members of the video game community, and asked them to provide their individual reactions. There are voices from everywhere in games, from development to fellow writers. I didn't specifically seek out people who had expressed an opinion about Dead Island, I just figured they had one. Some chose to speak directly to what happened, some didn't. There weren't any rules.

I’m also going to start something new here. I won't guarantee it’ll happen every time, but for big features, I want to make sure there’s a dedicated time slot for spending time responding to comments. It won’t happen until the story has been up for a little while, and people have had a chance to digest it. In this case, it’s going to be for 30 minutes at 11:30 a.m. PST. As always, anything I don’t get to can be addressed in PM, on Twitter, or through my Tumblr site.

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Rhianna Pratchett, writer (Tomb Raider, Mirror’s Edge)

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I’m both a horror fan, and a Dead Island fan. But my initial reaction to Riptide’s mutilated torso was one of shock, bewilderment and confusion. I wasn’t morally outraged. It was more a deep sigh and eye roll of “Oh come on… really? REALLY?” Yes, horror and sex have been intertwined forever, but there was something about the visual depiction of this one that was unexpectedly disgusting for a number of reasons. A mutilated corpse (of either sex) is pretty disturbing, sure. A sexed-up (and there no other way to describe the perfectly round, barely covered up and non-zombified knockers) female corpse, offered up as a reward, has particularly nasty connotations. Especially when combined with the fact that it’s described as 'bait'--a confusing title for what was apparently meant to be (according to the developers) a zombie’s torso, rather than the mutilated and cut up human torso that it actually looked like. Zombies are not normally known for the penchant to chew down on the flesh of other zombies.

I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!" It’s a mistake to ignore the legions of female gamers out there, who enjoy their zombie killing just as much as the guys. It’s an even bigger mistake to outright annoy them. Believe me, I know this. I’ve got first-hand experience of being caught-up with a video games "controversy" on Tomb Raider, and so I know that marketing and the way we speak about and depict our characters and games is important. Industry and player debate about how we go about this is also valuable.

I was glad to see Deep Silver apologising for this rather large misstep, although I was a little perplexed by the fact that they seemed to use the fact that players apparently do this in the game (or at least have the option to) as some kind of get-out-of-jail card. I’ve done some horrendous things in games. I don’t particularly want to see them immortalised in statue form.

There’s been a lot of talk about whether it would have been okay if it was a male statue. But the fact that it isn’t (and we can only really talk about what we’ve been presented with, not what we haven’t) combined with the way the torso’s been depicted, strongly suggests that the marketeers would never have done that. A sexed-up male torso (and even with a six-pack it’s not quite the same) wouldn’t have appealed to the intended audience (straight men) in the same way. If they’d wanted to keep up this mutilated torso theme then a male torso and female torso, leaning against each other in zombie-baiting harmony, would’ve been a better way to go about it. And, given that the first game had a 50/50 male to female ratio of player characters and a similar ratio in the AI, rather more in keeping with the general tone of the game.

Better still, something like AMC’s Walking Dead collector’s edition head would have been more appropriate and arguably less offensive.

Follow more of Rhianna's work at www.rhiannapratchett.com and on Twitter.

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Clarice Meadows, writer and former sales operation manager at Take-Two Interactive

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When marketing departments come up with various tchotchkes to get people to buy a video game, there are a lot of factors that come into it. Theme, desirability, originality, and more. It's a matter of making something unusual and interesting enough, and yet appropriately themed for the game, that fans will absolutely HAVE to buy it. I like to think that there are focus groups involved in the choice of object, or at the very least more than just a bunch of marketing types being locked in a room for days fueled by caffeine and junk food until they come up with an idea and are let out. Sadly, I am pretty sure the latter is usually the case. The zombie torso created specifically for Dead Island Riptide was, in my opinion, a marketing catastrophe. I've heard many responses to this particular item. From "well women don't play games anyway" to "by getting mad about it and yelling, you guys are giving this company free advertising" to "it's like a classical sculpture of antiquity, but a zombie!" So let's break this down a bit.

1) I am a woman, and I play video games. I am not particularly unusual in my gender group in choosing to play video games. I grew up in the 80s, video games were around, and I liked them. I also happen to know quite a few other women who play games, including games like Dead Island. By ignoring women as a market demographic for a video game, companies are losing out hugely. By assuming women will only buy pink, glittery items or games that are about clothing and boyfriends, these companies are losing money. By putting out a completely sexist and crass marketing ploy, they are losing money. Seriously, isn't the point of triple-A games to make scads of cash? I really don't get making choices that lead to losing it instead, can you tell?

2) By yelling about something offensive, we're making a case that offensive marketing is unacceptable. By not yelling, we're giving silent consent to continuing crappy and cheap marketing choices. And trust me, this is crappy, cheap AND lazy marketing. Oh look, a pair of boobs! How innovative! Apparently these marketers think the only people playing video games are under-sexed pubescent mole men. I mean… seriously? Lazy.

3) The last time I checked, classical sculptures did not have boob jobs. Also, the last time I checked, real boobs did not do that while in a string bikini. There's this thing called gravity… And if we're going to have an argument that this torso is not overly sexed up and has turned a live woman (or live lady zombie) into a bunch of sex organs, then… well… someone is lying to themselves. Is it appropriate? Is necrophilia really acceptable now? Because that's what this feels like it's promoting to me.

Lazy and cheap marketing ploys don't make money, they cost money in PR nightmares and hours of dancing around apologizing. It doesn't take much to be smarter, and who knows? Maybe a new market full of lots of money will open up and be willing to spend that money on video games! I mean, didn't you hear that women have jobs and make money and LOVE to spend it? Think big video game companies. Think about all that cash you're letting slide right through your fingers, and play it smarter.

Follow more of Clarice's work at Plays Like a Girl and on Twitter.

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Kate Lorimer, composer and writer

No Caption Provided

For my part, yes, I found it offensive, it was “the straw that broke the camel’s back” (though I am sure it won't be the last such incident) after a year of dodgy marketing (Hitman, Booth Babes, Tomb Raider, Girlfriend Mode, Anita Sarkeesian). And from a personal viewpoint, even a close friend expressing his being fed up with online “outrage” and “Feminist point-scoring pandering” from game websites like Rock Paper Shotgun--his words--and his complete (and somewhat deliberate) misunderstanding of the concept of Feminism (being supposedly more about pursuing Women’s interests above male's, as opposed to actually being about equality for both genders).

Unfortunately, amongst teens and younger players in general (but as Jenny Haniver has shown, far from exclusively) there’s likely to be a kneejerk reaction backlash at the outrage and offence caused by it, as kids love a bit of blood'n'gore, and certainly amongst the heterosexual hormone fueled boys that whole “cor... boobies” thing has an attraction. See: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153593/yes-ah-tah

The reasons for it being offensive are obvious to the clear of thought--it's objectification at its worst. Remove the person from the body, inexplicably leaving a pubescent boy’s idea of the perfect female figure, with balloon boobs (mysteriously untouched by hungry zombie snacking) and a peek at a panty enclosed crotch--of course, hiding the vagina within--which would likely be too offensive/edgy to the same boys!

Would the situation have been mitigated had there been an alternative option of a male torso? It might have slightly balanced the equality issue, though of course there is a special obsession with boobies--especially globe-tastic ones on an itty bitty waist! But the fact that it's just a female torso they decided to go with speaks volumes about their marketing, and the usual narrow-minded targeted demographic. It might have been just as grisly but slightly more in line with the zombie ethos to have had a scary looking zombie head?

Follow more of Kate's work at K8-bit and on Twitter.

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Elizabeth DeLoria, staff writer at Gameranx and cosplay photographer

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In September last year, Jill Meagher, a 29-year-old ABC employee, went missing while walking the short walk home from a popular Melbourne street. Thanks to a somewhat viral social media campaign, the entire country began to follow the case, people everywhere wanting Jill to be found alive and well and brought home.

When she was found murdered, buried in a shallow roadside grave after being kidnapped and sexually assaulted by a complete stranger, the entire country went from hopefully to angry. Angry that someone would do this, angry that she wasn't alive and well as we'd hoped, angry that she was minding her own business in her own suburb when she was attacked. People were so angry that when the alleged killer's name leaked, social media erupted with people from every walk of life wanting his head. An entire nation was in mourning, and thousands in Melbourne marched in her honor.

I mention this because we know it's not okay to kill people. We're angered and heartbroken when women are violently murdered (and that's just the cases we hear about.) The news of Jill Meagher, as an example, was devastating to thousands that didn't even know her. Yet at the same time, we're sent these messages that sexualize, glamorize and exploit a woman's decapitated torso. That use violent murder for the purpose of sex appeal and thus profit.

When I see the same people who I saw march for Jill, whose heart sank when they heard the news of her death ask me why this torso statue is "such a big deal," I don't even know how to begin to explain to them how they've come so close to the right thing, yet they sit so far from it.

I'm not really offended, I'm just mortified at how easily we seem to forget.

Follow more of Elizabeth's work at Gameranx and on Twitter.

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Vanessa Hunter, artist and game design graduate

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We need to start at the beginning if we are to stop the pervasiveness of sexism in gaming culture, and by sticking this statue in a set that will be received by kids and young adults, Deep Silver is reinforcing an already warped attitude toward women held by the gaming community.

If this statue had been reminiscent of Venus de Milo or the statue of David, and posed in a beautiful, creative way, perhaps I could have even admired it. But as a hunk of flesh plopped into a lifeless pose and trussed up in a string bikini, I seriously have to question the thought behind it.

My main reaction to this statue, however, is that it presents a woman as a literal piece of dead meat. It beheads all personality and life and strips away individuality to present the viewer with what is simply a hunk of flesh in a gaudy bikini. This figure gets up and screams "all I am worth is to fulfill your pleasures"

To a woman like me, it's sickening because it represents how some men see real-life women every day.

From someone who has seen firsthand how a monster who holds this attitude can choke the life out of someone beautiful and radiant, this bust is a nightmare come true. And what's worse is that the attitudes behind such an object reinforce this behaviour as okay.

As for Deep Silver's "apology" placing the blame on its fan base, many of whom view them as a role model, teaching them that sexism is okay if someone else has done it before is unacceptable. They need to grow up.

Follow more of Vanesssa's work through Instagram and on Twitter.

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Anonymous

I didn't feel offended by the Dead Island bikini statue. I did, however, find it quite tiresome. I don't think that it can be denied that the statue is an obvious example of sexual objectification--a mutilated torso with perfectly untouched breasts.

Sexual objectification of women is everywhere, and it's impact is a massive discussion that goes way beyond video games. What I found most tiresome about the statue wasn't the objectification but that making a statue such as this suggests a number of things that Deep Silver assumes about their audience. They assume that the audience are young shallow men whose main interests are tits and violence. It's insulting to men and its a common assumption in video game marketing. Women are not even considered as part of the possible audience. It's outdated thinking.

I've been playing video games since I was a kid, and it's probably the main thing I do for entertainment. I have as many female friends as male who play video games. It is tiresome to be constantly excluded--and if I am included then I am considered a novelty. Women who play games are a sizable chunk of the audience and have been around for as long as video games. Objects like this statue show that we are not really considered to exist.

This individual chose not to share their personal information for fear of potential backlash.

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Melissa Cooke, writer for FemmeGamer

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Personally, I think that it's rather disgusting that Deep Silver decided to sell this. The usage of a female chest and abdomen I assume was originally used as a shock tactic to grab the eyes of the media, obviously this has worked, but what made it sexist in my eyes was the way it was dressed up and the proportions on the body.

The breasts are very unrealistic in the way they're being held up by a string bikini, not to mention that there are no wounds on the breasts, making them all the more obvious.The stomach is also very flat, and the bust looks almost anorexic, which is a very damaging image to promote.

The bust lacks also a face or any other feature that makes this bust look human, which could be interpreted as Deep Silver saying "Look this isn't a human, it's a woman, look how her breasts are positioned for your enjoyment, isn't that cool?"

Overall, this is a rather shameless grab for attention on Deep Silver's part, and all this sort of stunt does is give the non-gaming public the idea that games and the people who are playing them are immature, and push any progress the industry has made back a few more years.

Follow Melissa's work at Femme Gamer and on Twitter.

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Anna Kipnis, senior gameplay programmer at Double Fine Productions

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It's really hard to approach this topic in any kind of novel way. At this point, it's hard to bring round people who have made their minds up that feminism threatens to ruin their entertainment; to convince them that it's troubling to have games openly revel in dismembering decomposing women in bikinis. Yet I don't believe in censorship, either. Personally, I push this sort of thing into the same category in my brain as boob mugs (which I respect more for at least cutting to the chase and showing actual nudity). I'm not sure why someone would want a headless, bloody, dismembered corpse of a woman's upper torso, with grotesquely fake boobs obscured by a sadly implicated union jack proudly displayed on their mantle, but they're not a person I can imagine seeing eye-to-eye with on many things.

I honestly believe you can have sexiness and violence in games, even at the same time, if that's what you want. I can't think of a great example of a game that has done this particularly well (no doubt there is one), but there are many examples in film. For instance, Quentin Tarantino has made plenty of movies over the years that feature sexy women in violent situations. Even women getting dismembered (Kill Bill Volume 1, Death Proof), and yet it's never felt sexist or misogynist to me. I walk away from the theater generally thinking of those women as role models, not victims.

I think it's on us, game developers, to prevent controversies like this one. I'm a game programmer and I would be pretty bummed if I was working on what was essentially a game equivalent of a boob mug. You're appealing to the lowest, most vulgar aspects of your audience at a time when games are widely criticized for being juvenile, senseless, and immature, only to then complain that the medium is not being taken seriously as an art form. We should strive to treat our medium with the respect it deserves.

Follow Anna's work at Double Fine Productions and on Twitter.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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JRock3x8

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@MMann: re the patrick hate - I guess I don't understand why Patrick gets treated the way he does - I think his opinions are interesting and different even if he does to tend to run over people a bit in the podcast at times. But Giant Bomb as a whole is better when it's creative and I don't find anything particularly creative about asking 8 women what they think of oversized boobs on a bloody headless mannequin.

For the record, I actually thought that Alex N wrote both this and the original article so my opinions of Patrick never really factored into my response.

Again, I don't get why Patrick gets treated so much differently than the rest of the staff but I don't visit the site every day either and only comment on news / forums when something explodes in my brain which thankfully is not very often :)

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@Milkman said:

@Brodehouse

@Milkman said:

@InsidiousTuna

Klepek's closing statement from a previous article on games industry sexism is exceptionally relevant.

"I’m a guy, I’ve never had to deal with any of these problems. But I’m willing to admit where there’s smoke, there’s probably fire, and listening is helpful, informative. If you don’t want to listen, you don’t have to. No one is forcing you. Just stop shouting down others who want to."

New strategy for these comments. Instead of going back and forth with people who make the same arguments over and over again, (by the way, I'm seeing a lot of familiar names from the other articles trying to shout down the sexism discussion again...very interesting, maybe that should tell us something) I'm going to point out all the posts that I agree with and make great points. Like this one!

Here's a significant problem.

When one side presents an argument that states that there is sexism in the industry, another side will make a counter-argument based on the evidence shown within the original argument (if there is any). These arguments range in quality, but there are many that rely on the logical presentation of reason and evidence to unravel spurious claims made by the original.

At this point, rather than logically identify and examine the counter-argument, the original makes such claims as "they're trying to shout me down" and "you don't have to read it if you don't like it". In this method, they completely bypass logic and prey upon red herrings; that of 'I have a right to my opinion' being irrelevant to the actual discussion at hand, or that of the very act of disagreeing in some way is a denial of free speech. Both are clear logical fallacies, and should be immediately identified as such.

But why is the counter argument even necessary? I think we all agree that there is sexism in the games industry (I hope we do anyway) and other forms of media, even if you don't think this particular instance is sexist. And that's okay if you don't think so. But some do think it is so why do others feel the need to try to shout these people down? What is being gained by telling people that do think it's sexist that it's not and that you personally are declaring it "not a problem?"

"I think we can all agree" <-- this is not evidence based thinking, this is dogmatic thinking. Our ability to agree does constitute a rational argument, it merely constitutes our ability to agree. This isn't even getting into the nature of the statement; instances of sexism in workplaces do not constitute a 'sexist industry' any more than instances of murder or crime within a city constitute a 'murder city' or 'criminal city'. This is the fallacy of composition.

"Why do they need to try and shout these people down" <-- this is not even a fallacy, it is merely an illogical and irrational description of a disagreement. Those who argue against Patrick are not capable of eliminating his ability to have an opinion, merely of disagreeing with him. His free speech does not become infringed upon because people have the audacity to disagree with the validity of his logic. It is literally impossible to be 'shouted down' when you control the forum in which the discussion is happening. It is possible to be disagreed with, and a reasonable person would argue the actual arguments presented rather than rely on empty rhetoric claiming discrimination because others disagreed.

"What is to be gained by telling people who do think it's sexist that you personally are delcaring it not a problem" <-- this is an appeal to the speaker rather than an appeal to the argument. I have created an argument that involves the definition of sexism and then outlined how a person's offense does not in fact play into it. That you are offended by the presence of X does nothing to display X as making a generalistic, fallacious statement about a social group. That I could be offended by X does not mean that X is sexist, racist, homophobic without actual evidence beyond my offense.

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dvorak

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Edited By dvorak

I completely agree with the sentiment. But this is just a really poor article.

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EnduranceFun

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@Darji said:

@SniperXan said:

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

This is not a woman. It is a torso. Just like this one here.

No Caption Provided

Except it was zombiefied

That's sexist against female artists.

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SniperXan

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@Darji: One of the ladies in the article wrote about this better then I could...read the article. I agree with her.

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Undeadpool

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@baldgye said:

@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

Because it's a really easy way to become noticed by people in whatever industry or market you're in. It requires basically no skill, simply that you belong to a demographic and can be easily offended.

If you read what most of them put its over-exaggerated nonsense that makes massive leaps in logic to try and make some nasty bit of plastic have an agenda.

Yeah, if there's one industry women have NO TROUBLE getting noticed in at a professional level, it's videogames.

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Efesell

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@onan said:

I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!"

That said, I still enjoy a lack of carpal tunnel from the booby mousepad packed in with the original Agarest War.

No Caption Provided

That fucking awful thing really is a surprisingly good mouse pad...

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Edited By ArbitraryWater

I'm starting to get really tired of this. That statue was tasteless, gross, and incredibly stupid. We don't need 8 women telling us the same thing and also throwing out bigger connotations about how women are treated in society. Because I get it. Women are discriminated against. It's unfortunate, it should be changed, but this Dead Island bust is not the issue. It isn't. Equal pay for women should be the issue, Equal opportunities for women should be the issue. Not some poorly-conceived marketing effort that has already been widely condemned by the rest of the internet as such.

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Humanity

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Edited By Humanity

When F.E.A.R. 3 came out the collectors edition of that game included a statue of a naked Alma, with a glow in the dark womb. No one said anything about it back then - is this statue even more offensive or less offensive? She is completely nude, but since it's a horror character and she doesn't have huge breasts does that make it more ok cause OH it's horror?

No Caption Provided
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TopCat88

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@Brodehouse said:

@uomoartificiale said:

@TopCat88 said:

It is a shallow attempt to sell more copies of their game to boys. I agree that it's daft. It is not sexist. Sexist is hating women, not hiring or promoting a woman because of gender or giving a woman a lower salary. A collectible statue of a woman (dismembered, naked, alive, dead or otherwise) isn't sexist. It is distasteful.

No matter how to you put it, "not hiring or promoting a woman because of gender or giving a woman a lower salary", it's sexist and hateful. You see sexism is a social phenomenon based on hate towards women, either explicit or implied. It doesn't matter. Not hiring a woman, "because she's a woman", it's exactly that.

Now, just saying "it's distasteful" is the kind of word juggling we don't need. The attempt to reduce the complexity and gravity of things doesn't help anyone. This case is layered with several things that make it a bad PR stunt: the statue is sexist (again, implicitly or explicitly, it doesn't matter), it's distasteful, and it's a cry for attention. These three points of view don't exclude each other.

You have failed to grasp the grammatical construction of his statement. The comma used entails he is continuing a thought, not reversing as such. "Sexism is hating women, [or] not hiring or promoting because of gender". He did not saying "Sexism is hating women, [not] not hiring or promoting a woman because of gender".

Thank you for clearing that up so eloquently.

: I think we need to draw a line on what is sexism and what isn't. A female character in a video game is not necessarily and example of sexism, even if she has large boobs or is dismembered. Is Princess Peach an example of sexism because she needs the men to help save her from another man? I think not.

I wish people would get this excited about real and meaningful examples of sexism in the industry and not dilute the issue by raising hell about a stupid marketing campaign.

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SniperXan

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Edited By SniperXan

@Sweep: How so? I really want to understand your point of view...(I know I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation on the internet...I'm a silly person :P)

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Edited By onan
I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!"

That said, I still enjoy a lack of carpal tunnel from the booby mousepad packed in with the original Agarest War.

No Caption Provided
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TwoSe7enFive

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Edited By TwoSe7enFive

@Kingyo: Progress != Progressive. It was not in regards to this story in particular but Patrick's general political agenda on the site.

Progressive - A person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.

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Edited By posh

@Sweep: please don't abuse your mod privileges to threaten people who disagree with you. i've seen much worse thrown at people on patrick's side and no mod has addressed it

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MMann

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@Sweep said:

@Langly: If you can't take part in a discussion without insulting people then your ability to post is going to disappear.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article.

Dude, careful.

I just saw a mod say they were gonna start handing out forum bans to people who can't take part without insulting people.

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@whatisdelicious said:

@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

Same here. It's like he went out and found other 8 people who agree with him who have the right to be offended, and therefore, I'm not allowed to disagree with them. Because they're women. And I'm a man. That's not reporting at all. That's not getting a balanced perspective or digging deep into the issue. This kind of article wouldn't have even been printed in my college newspaper.

tagging to this comment chain going on here, hopefully he chimes in as he said he would. as this seems like a legitimate criticism.

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@Darji said:

@SniperXan said:

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

This is not a woman. It is a torso. Just like this one here.

No Caption Provided

Except it was zombiefied

MAN THAT TORSO SO THIN IT MUST BE ANOREXIC.

People that thought the zombie torso was "anorexic" are either overweight or moronic.

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sweep

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@MMann said:

@Langly said:

@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

How do you exist as a real person? How are you a moderator?

Did you note that the women who weighed in were in some way affiliated with the industry? That they might have a grasp on the issue in a wider context because they are always engulfed by it? Are you a complete idiot? Their opinion matters because they are constantly affected by the culture at large. And yes, you dumb jerk, people of color have more valid opinions on racism because they are actually affected by the culture of racism. It doesn't make a white person's opinion completely invalid. Women experience objectification and harassment and sexism in a way that you never will. That is what the word "privilege" means. It doesn't mean that you are necessarily financially or even professionally privileged it means that your place in society gives you certain privileges that are not available to people of color or women. You interact with the culture in a different way than they do.

So, yeah, the people actually affected by the culture have a more valid opinion on the situation than you do.

He's probably still just supermad that ZMF was given a top 10 and raging against the 'actually a member of GB crew and not just a forum janitor' machine.

Yeah that's exactly right, you nailed it. Great work.

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How come no men were asked to comment? I'll give you the answer. It's because Patrick wanted support for his own opinions, and used women to do so. Pretty sexist if you ask me.

As for the statue? It's dumb and should never have existed.

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Zaxex

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Video games!

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I wish I knew who wrote the anonymous entry because it think it really hits the nail on the head that it's not so much intentional and malicious hatred of women that's behind this as it is just a complete lack of consideration for their presence and existence in the gaming world.

I'm also wondering if the reaction would be the same if the bust had a nasty zombified lady's head on it, at least the intention would have been clearer.

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EternalGamer2

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Hey Patrick, could you and the rest of the GB crew do us a favor and start the next bombcast by overtly telling all these misogynist creeps to fuck off and that GB doesnt want their business. The comments in this thread make me embarassed to even be reading this site, but I know it isnt your guys fault. Alternatively, I recommend just making this a regular column giving women's perspectives on a particular issue in the games industry. It would be great to constantly get this kind of perspective and eventually these bottomfeeders will get the message and move on. Win/win. Kipnis comparison to Tarentino's implementation of sexy and violence is interesting and I tend to agree with her that nobody has pulled that tone off successfully in games. I kind of wonder if it is because both the player and the camera seem to always be trapped in creepy vouyerisric male gaze, cheesecake shots and all. I am not sure how you avoid it, though.

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mordukai

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@rangers517 said:

@Kill: @Kill said:

When Patrick first joined Giant Bomb, he repeatedly said in his articles that he would not talk about his personal political beliefs as he did not feel they were necessary in his writing. As time went on, he started to plug his favourite political podcasts, put his liberal slant on news stories which did not require it, dropped his political opinions on the Bombcast when they wasn't asked for, and now he is actively seeking out some kind of validation for his own moral slant in the form of this article.

Look, I love Giant Bomb and I think Patrick is a great writer. However, this is nothing more than a "ha, told you so" to the community and an ego stroking by a man who believes only his political views should be noted on this site. He could at least have sought out a more balanced view of the situation. After the first three women said largely the same thing and no other viewpoint was represented, I could not help but picture that characteristic Patrick smirk behind all this.

I know this is a ramble, but I feel the other Giant Bomb guys do a great job of concealing their political ideologies. I have no idea who Brad, Jeff, Ryan or Vinny vote for. I could certainly guess, but it definitely isn't as clear as the liberal, Democrat voting, Reddit-reading klaxon of Klepek and his incessant need to spin gaming news a particular way. I find it distasteful, even if I agree with him on issues like this. It's a bit gross on a site which was founded on being impartial and fun.

Just my tl;dr opinion.

Agreed 100%. The other guys tried to keep it a light and fun video game site. No idea why Klepek thinks his views and opinions are so important that he needs to constantly share them with us.

It's an age thing. Plus I don't think GB has a really good editorial process. I want to think the decision making on publishing an article or not is a group making decision but I think in the end it's up to Jeff. I think he is great at covering games but I don't think he has still proved himself at an editorial boss. It just seems to me that because he experienced such a trauma at Gamespot that now he will give pretty much any article the green light for fear of doing what was done to him. I get the idea behind this article but it was executed rather poorly as most of the opinions were just saying the same thing over and over again (except for one who choose to remain anonymous).

The other problem is since he joined the other guy's editorial has almost but vanished. I remember good articles coming from all the guys and it was nice because everyone of them has a different way of writing and the way they tell it. Ever since patrick joined it seems he became the only person to cover any sort of written editorial piece, expect the occasional Alex one. I really think that's the main problem with the shit patrick seems to be getting from users here. For the better part of two years all the written editorial has been written from his point of view and I think it's starting to wear down the users here.

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Anna Kipnis says things well, but states in the same breath why there's little hope for change. So many people don't take the industry seriously, nor issues like sexism for that matter. The comments bear that out too.

People don't take things seriously, and don't want to. It's as though enjoying something and thinking about something have to be mutually exclusive. Any time someone asks them to stop and think about something, to really dig into the implications of their actions and views of the world, they get indignant about it. How dare someone question your world view? How dare someone suggest that you don't see something they do? How dare you talk about a topic they don't care about?

Disagreement and discussion are incredibly valuable, but dismissal, as is the most common comment around here, does nothing but hold this community and the discussed issues back. I applaud anyone willing to keep fighting the good fight to improve the games industry and fight back those who just can't be bothered to give a shit about how others see the world. Patrick Klepek, I can't imagine how exhausting this interaction must feel, but good on your for trying.

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@Langly: If you can't take part in a discussion without insulting people then your ability to post is going to disappear.

@whatisdelicious said:

@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

Same here. It's like he went out and found other 8 people who agree with him who have the right to be offended, and therefore, I'm not allowed to disagree with them. Because they're women. And I'm a man. That's not reporting at all. That's not getting a balanced perspective or digging deep into the issue. This kind of article wouldn't have even been printed in my college newspaper.

^^^ this

@SniperXan: I don't disagree with the intent, I just don't like how this has been presented.

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MMann

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@Langly said:

@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

How do you exist as a real person? How are you a moderator?

Did you note that the women who weighed in were in some way affiliated with the industry? That they might have a grasp on the issue in a wider context because they are always engulfed by it? Are you a complete idiot? Their opinion matters because they are constantly affected by the culture at large. And yes, you dumb jerk, people of color have more valid opinions on racism because they are actually affected by the culture of racism. It doesn't make a white person's opinion completely invalid. Women experience objectification and harassment and sexism in a way that you never will. That is what the word "privilege" means. It doesn't mean that you are necessarily financially or even professionally privileged it means that your place in society gives you certain privileges that are not available to people of color or women. You interact with the culture in a different way than they do.

So, yeah, the people actually affected by the culture have a more valid opinion on the situation than you do.

He's probably still just supermad that ZMF was given a top 10 and raging against the 'actually a member of GB crew and not just a forum janitor' machine.

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Darji

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@SniperXan said:

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

This is not a woman. It is a torso. Just like this one here.

No Caption Provided

Except it was zombiefied

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@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because female voices can be easily lost in the noise of the medium that is still heavily targeted towards a male audience, even if that audience is in fact not completely male. It's not so much about "making a big deal" of their response, as it is to simply bring to the forefront some insight that can be had, regardless if this is an issue about sexism or the poor judgement of a marketing department being paid by Deep Silver.

Maybe it's a bit too much of an extrapolated example, but the fact that one of the responses Patrick chose to highlight was sent in anonymously out of fear of backlash is extremely disappointing and telling. I was pretty sad to read the article when it got to that point, because nobody should have to feel a sense of fear of any kind to simply share an opinion like that - regardless if the person was a man or woman. Given the context of the article, it's safe to assume a female, but still. Fearing any kind of backlash on the basis of a desire to share you opinion is a terrible, terrible thing.

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@TwoSe7enFive said:

Here we go again ...

WE.GET.IT!!!! Bad taste. Female form bad. Video game marketing evil.

I'm really getting tired of this progressive bull-shit.

Progress. I am tired of it. - Giant Bomb User, 2013

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Nictel

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@Chavtheworld said:

GUYS SHE'S GOT HER BOOBS SHOWING IT MUST BE SEXIST GUYS
GUYS SHE'S GOT HER BOOBS SHOWING IT MUST BE SEXIST GUYS

Seriously though, fucking terrible choice for a picture.

Also hilarious.

You think that's bad?

Rhianna Pratchett

I’m accustomed to game companies marketing towards men. But rarely is it quite so blatantly i.e. "Here are some tits!"

She worked on Tomb Raider and Heavenly Sword. Lets take a look shall we?

PS3 box art (cropped)
PS3 box art (cropped)
360 box art (cropped)
360 box art (cropped)

Lets make a game where a girl runs around in her underwear the entire time.

Umm why cut off her face? OW you're concentrating on her boobs.

@asantosbr said:

Good video to counter balance Patrick and these 8 girls opinion:

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/9noiop/annoyed-gamer-zombie-bikini-bash

I find this much more intelligent. Also he might be right, here in Europe we have more problems with games like Manhunt than we do with boobs. Besides the point that indeed the statue is anything but sexy.

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baldgye

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@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

Because it's a really easy way to become noticed by people in whatever industry or market you're in. It requires basically no skill, simply that you belong to a demographic and can be easily offended.

If you read what most of them put its over-exaggerated nonsense that makes massive leaps in logic to try and make some nasty bit of plastic have an agenda.

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Ravenlight

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I've refreshed this page twice and there aren't three more pages that have appeared. Has everyone got it out of their system already?

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@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

How do you exist as a real person? How are you a moderator?

Did you note that the women who weighed in were in some way affiliated with the industry? That they might have a grasp on the issue in a wider context because they are always engulfed by it? Are you a complete idiot? Their opinion matters because they are constantly affected by the culture at large. And yes, you dumb jerk, people of color have more valid opinions on racism because they are actually affected by the culture of racism. It doesn't make a white person's opinion completely invalid. Women experience objectification and harassment and sexism in a way that you never will. That is what the word "privilege" means. It doesn't mean that you are necessarily financially or even professionally privileged it means that your place in society gives you certain privileges that are not available to people of color or women. You interact with the culture in a different way than they do.

So, yeah, the people actually affected by the culture have a more valid opinion on the situation than you do.

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I_smell

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@L6M said:

This zombie torso has created a zombie article with zombie opinions with zombie comments by zombie posters.

braaaaaaaaaaiiiiinsss...

I think calling this a "zombie article" is a really excellent way of summing it up.
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saddlebrown

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@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

Same here. It's like he went out and found other 8 people who agree with him who have the right to be offended, and therefore, I'm not allowed to disagree with them. Because they're women. And I'm a man. That's not reporting at all. That's not getting a balanced perspective or digging deep into the issue. This kind of article wouldn't have even been printed in my college newspaper.

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boj4ngles

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Thank you Patrick for at least trying to help out all the sweaty beard neck virgins in the community. But I doubt they can be saved at this point.

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@Sweep said:

@MMann said:

@Sweep said:

I don't understand why the opinions of women were actively sought out in this instance. Are their opinions somehow more valid? Are women entitled to be more insulted? Why is it a big deal that women are weighing in on this?

Because last time this issue was brought up a whole shit-tonne of people made comments saying that P.Klep should do some "real reporting" and go get feedback from actual women instead of just giving his opinion and treating the site like a livejournal.

So he did.

Now people are angry about that too.

Well those people are idiots. I didn't read the article, I'm offended by the principle behind it: You shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism just because you have a vagina. Are only black people allowed to be offended by racism? This is bullshit.

I don't understand why the fact that women have weighed in on this debate is worthy of some kind of ethical recognition and, honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic that it's being flaunted as such. Shame on you, Patrick.

i shouldnt jump in on this conversation chain considering your a mod and you can kill my account. but hey, discussions right? patrick said thats the ultimate point of these damm articles :P

i agree with you on these women arent "authority figures" and that they shouldn't be considered an authority on sexism because they have a vagina, this piece could really be interpreted as patrick getting more validation on his views as a majority of these women come off as damm feminists to me. (anna is the only one id really listen to as she has the most level headed well rounded opinion)

what would have helped patricks case, is if he got some big male industry people to weigh in on this, that way its more balanced

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@Gremmel said:

Can't be that bad because you keep posting the damn picture of it.......

All this liberal "let's just all get along" bullshit needs to stop soon. You're not solving anything vilifying massive swaths of people, be it men, gamers, women or gun owners.

The statue wasn't hurting anyone, at least not anymore than Django Unchained hurt people and everyone seem fairly fine with that movie. I'm confounded that movies get away with just about anything while the gaming industry is to blame for everything. Are all you liberals really so naive that you think only 13 year old kids who play video games yell "Niggerwhore!" at the top of their lungs when they get excited? I promise you that ain't the case. They learn those words from the man or woman sitting next to you at the office by the way, you know, their parents.

For all you guys who think women need your help. Shush! For all you women who think all men don't respect you. Shush!

Here's the real problem really. Should women have equal pay for equal work done. Obviously. Should that be mandated by law? No but for now it has to be because too many people, including women, don't care! Can this be fixed by being outraged over a GOD DAMN! statue of a grim sex object. Fucking of course not and if you think it does you're still a naive child.

You're not going to change western culture by going "You're the DEVIL!" at everything you don't like. It's not going to work anymore. Even the racists and misogynists are to smart and post-modern to fall for mock shaming anymore. The last thing that worked for was smoking, barely worked for. A twitter uproar lasts for maybe a few days before the cattle move on to the next thing. When was the last time you thought of Kony or Amanda Todd? What did any of that actually do? It made millions of white rich people feel good for a few days but nothing was actually changed in politics by either.

In the end you change peoples opinions about things by having discussions with them. Even raising a child you eventually have to talk to them. My grandparents were racists 10 years ago. They're not anymore. My grandad was a mean drunk 20 years ago, he's not anymore. That wasn't accomplished by the rest of us ignoring their racists remarks or not saying anything. It was just time, and talking.

You're not going to change everyone's mind at once. Again to think that you can is just naive in the sort of connected place we now live in. If you were offended by a torso of a bloody woman without legs, head or arms. Fine. But I really don't care because I don't know you, so SHUSH!

Why should they SHUSH! ? I don't mean that as a challenge, I mean it like:

SHUSH! --> good thing happens

Not SHUSH! --> bad thing happens

That seems to be your argument. Can you explain the connection between SHUSH! and good outcomes?

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EnduranceFun

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@Babylonian: The utter hypocrisy of this shit blows my mind.

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@Babylonian said:

@BlastProcessing said:

At least Patrick didn't quote himself this time. Still, this progressive, Kotaku-esque clickbait shit needs to stop, It's a horrible statue made in bad taste, nothing to cry about.

The fact that you just used the word 'progressive' as a pejorative is FUCKING TERRIFYING to me. Kill all nerds.

b..but.. if we don't defend the status quo things might change!

I'm tired of your progressive, pro-equality, ANTIFA agenda Babylonian!

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recroulette

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Edited By recroulette

Hey GB community. People in the world see things differently, who knew? To think you're going to end this discussion today is foolish.  
 
I personally see it as a dumb statue, that's it. Am I going to tell someone who thinks it's sexist that it's not? Of course not. We should be appreciating different points of views, not shooting them down because we don't agree. No matter how crazy they seem compared to yours.  

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kingyo

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Edited By kingyo

@Langly said:

I can't believe the amount of ridiculous comments on this article. This isn't something you would find on Kotaku, this is a legitimate article that focuses on the wider context of the statue and what it represents. It isn't just a stupid, harmless marketing incident. It's part of a consistent tone that emanates from the games industry and culture.

Stop blathering about militant feminism like 14 year old children.

@quantumjustice said:

Just want to pop in and thank Patrick for being a journalist in a medium that doesn't have many of them, and get out before the insanity makes me even more angry.

Screw the haters Patrick, your a damn cool guy who's damn good at getting the scoop.

Totally agree

@Live_Free_or_Die said:

Here we go again. Patrick trying to be a knight in shining armor for women everywhere. Why aren't there any responses from women who didn't have a problem with the statue?

Perhaps and I'm only guessing here, but just maybe that speaks to the total lack of women, particularly those in the industry, who don't have a problem with this horrible plastic toy aimed at horny 14 year olds...

This is my main problem, everyone complains that our industry isn't taken seriously and is always being pushed around in legislation and in the media. But then someone like Patrick comes along and tries to do a good article ABSENT of his opinion (which every fifth person seems to irrationally complain about) and showing off what some real women in the video game industry think... and everyone acts like children in the comments. Truly it is mind boggling.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@Phoenix654 said:

@Zornack said:

Huh, thought I clicked a giantbomb link. How'd I end up on Kotaku?

Not a single opinion that it's simply a stupid statue no one gives a fuck about, just eight paragraphs about how hateful, sexist and misogynistic the video game industry is.

Quality journalism.

Are you a female?

His (or her) gender is completely inconsequential to his argument.

Regarding perspective, you make a misstep. A 'different' perspective does not become superior by nature of being different. Perspective in itself refers to the ability to take a wider array of evidence and use reason to make logical points. That someone has a perspective does not necessarily engender their arguments towards being more or less rational.

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SomeJerk

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Edited By SomeJerk

If you're going to say that you didn't read an article and still argue against it you're going to make yourself look stupid, if you're a regular user.

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babylonian

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Edited By babylonian

@lesaboteur said:

I don't like the white men in this comment section and their

No Caption Provided

This post needs to be on page 20. And also every page. And also every website.

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deactivated-59123fe38ab28

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Interesting read

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SniperXan

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Edited By SniperXan

@Sweep: This isn't about sexism as a broad idea... it's about women being exploited. Your "Black people only allowed to get angry about racism" doesn't work here... I think your outrage is misplaced and very confusing.

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Phouchg

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Edited By Phouchg

Great article and great with the eight different contributors.. makes it clear that your not alone reacting to the ridiculousness of that.. thing.

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Zombie_Shakespeare

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How do you even know that's a statue of a woman, cis scum?

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Dylabaloo

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Edited By Dylabaloo

@JRock3x8 said:

I guess I don't understand the point of this article. Was anyone expecting to read this and go "OH! THAT'S why it's offensive..." We all knew it was offensive and asking women to confirm that is sort of like asking water to stay wet. Duh.

So what if you got the Cards Against Humanity guys on the phone? If there's anyone who is an EXPERT on what is offensive (and how to toe the line between what is acceptably offensive and unacceptably offensive), it's those guys. What's their take on this?

I like the way you think!