i feel sorry for ME2 sales and DA:O, but not for DA2.   

So they had a choice, to lose a lot of money making DA2 a good game or to make a game compatible with the expected sale numbers. 

Wow ME2 deserved to sell WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than that....that makes me sad.

With those sales numbers, that's no excuse to treat the sequel like shit. If you have a steady base of 2 million fans buying your games, then it's not exactly rocket science how to make money on that model. It's safe to say that EA is responsible for such a ludicrously short development time. Obsidian often has to work with low budgets and a one year-dev cycle, but they're considerably less well-off than Bioware, so their existence is predicated on generating high sales from relatively low-cost sequels. DA2 patently suffers from its rushed production and there's no excusing the final product or the publisher: EA historically is about as bad as Activision.

After listening to the IGN podcast(yah i know i'm lame)  they interviewed the lead designer and he pretty much said they started working on changes they implemented in DA2 before Origins was even released.  So I don't know which bioware guy you guys want to believe but it seems they had a good headstart when making the game.

" @Mooqi: Um, the last Fable had a PC version. Your thesis has some fundamental factual errors. "

" @Mooqi:   , but maybe instead of Dragon Age 2 they should have gone for Dragon Age: Kirkwall or some such. "

" @Mooqi:   Origins and ME2 (which had PC versions at launch) both outsold ME1 afaik, which didn't have a PC version available at launch.  PC versions also haven't stopped the Fallout games (probably the closest comparison) selling crazy millions.  I think it's clutching at straws to suggest that all Bioware has to do to sell more copies is to not put out a PC version. "

Bottom line is, the game had a one-year production cycle and no amount of clever development can disguise this fact.

It shows.

For a game that was produced in 8 months its pretty good, but for a Bioware game I expect a certain amount of polish and quality that I did not get with this game.

" @phantomzxro said:

" @Hailinel said:

" @Dany said:

" I still find it shocking that these Bioware games do not sell. Hopefully all of hte good will from ME2 will lead to good sales for ME3.  Considering that the production was only a year is crazy and it was able to fit in so much stuff is absurd. "

How can two million in sales be considered not selling well? "

Yeah i don't think it is bad at all, anything that sells a million is a hit. The problem is after that they expect to sell more then more and it goes on like that. Also it is something i'm sure they look like when they see every other major game AAA game selling more. "

No, one million is just about breaking even on an average AAA multi-plat game nowadays.  ME2 did well for them at 2 million sales, but it's not really anything to shout about (which is why you don't hear them shouting about it).    For perspective, if The Old Republic is really costing the alleged $300 million, that's equivalent to the profit from about ten Mass Effect 2's.  Or one FIFA 11. "

I still find it hard to believe that ME2 sold only 2 million copys across all platform including digital distribution ... if that actually is true that would be shocking. 
 
When it comes to DA2: Its a good game that could have been amazing ... given more time.

DA2 has been getting a lot of TV ad coverage. Sometimes people just aren't interested. Mirror's Edge got a lot of coverage, didn't help.

That explains why I haven't heard anything good about it from duders on this site.

Dragon Age: Origins was really a great start. Now I just want BioWare to drop Dragon Age entirely and move on. I'm not sure if it was too soon or what, but Dragon Age 2 ruined it for me. Dragon Age: Recycled. 
 
Mass Effect 3 is a big title. Dragon Age 2 tells me that I shouldn't just automatically buy a BioWare game and expect quality and attention to details. You're a great video game developer, BioWare, don't go on and screw things up by spewing out games instead of ensuring they're actually fun.    

The question is would I rather have games like Starcraft 2 every decade or games like COD every year. Would I rather have a game like DAO every 3 years or a game like DA2 every year? Well bud, a lot of people would rather have the better game that takes longer to make. Clearly a lot of people are fine having a COD every year, in between watching Michael Bay movies that abide the same "quantity>quality" mantra. But that's not necessarily what most RPG players want. "

" For a game that was produced in 8 months its pretty good, but for a Bioware game I expect a certain amount of polish and quality that I did not get with this game. "

" @Vaile: Sure you would, we all would, but would it have been financially viable for them?  I don't think this game is anywhere near as bad as a lot of people are trying to say. "

" @sammo21: I think most people are saying it's disappointing, not bad.   The problem is, EA and Bioware want their games to sell as much as Oblivion, Fallout, CoD, and GTA.  They've alluded to this a bunch of times when speaking with the press.  However, no matter what changes they institute, for whatever reason,  they sell about 2 million per game.  They keep making the games more casual to bring in "non-RPG" fans who "don't realize that San Andreas was an RPG", but it's not really helping them move any more units.  They're losing some of their loyal fanbase to bring in more casuals, but they aren't gaining any more sales.  It's not working out for them; they're trying to serve two masters and I'm worried that down the line they'll lose both unless they come up with some great ideas on how to change the direction they're heading.  I loved ME2 and thought DA2 was just okay, for the record.  They are alienating a lot of people, though, who have stronger feelings about the company than I do. "

I think a lot of us figured it was developed fairly quickly as it was lazy, even lazier than Bioware's Jade Empire. Kinda lost a bit of respect for them now that they like so many other good devs have changed and are now destined to streamline all their games. DA2 wasn't just lazy with the game itself, or the story, or the characters but with its soundtrack and delivery as well. There wasn't even a good CGI video like there was for the first one, but then again Bioware did the same thing with Mass 1 & 2.

Why do people (still) hate Jade Empire? It was fucking amazing, and by far the most original thing Bioware has done. I'd still love to see a sequel, or even an HD re-release, but I guess that just won't happen.
 
And yeah, it baffles me why Bioware games sell so poorly compared to, say, Bethesda stuff.

I don't hate Jade Empire, it was a good attempt, they were just lazy with it. It was incredibly short and didn't have much depth compared to their other titles, the combat system also needed more inspiration, the actual game, lore, and the characters were great though. 
 
Anyway OP why did you list Kotor 2? surely Kotor 2 is better than DA2, Kotor 2 might have had a really crap ending but its dialogue and its mechanics were certainly superior to the first Kotor.

If this is true, I kinda suspected this. 
 
Dragon Age II did not fail in the story telling department (come on guys, blight's over) and the combat wasn't bad. But it was a shorter, smaller game and that really hurt it in my eyes. If they really did put it together in 8 months then holy hell, good effort. But you shouldn't have done it in the first place.  
 
I suspect EA is trying to do an Activision - you've probably got some EA suit that has never played a game in his/her life saying "How can we improve the monetization process of our key products? Shorter turn around time!", and then they go off to BioWare and say - "make more money faster, make more games faster, do everything faster! No, FASTER! EVEN FASTER THAN THAT! Papa needs a new Porsche!" Dragon Age II, despite being a good game, was a rushed game. It needed another year of development at least. Think about what they could have done with another year - maybe make TWO dungeon designs! Whoa, right!?   

" @Pumpeho said:

" @Afroman269 said:

" I'm hoping Mass Effect 3 isn't going to get the rushed treatment like DA 2. "

Theres a risk, but since it was thought to be a trilogy from the start they should have the frame for their story finished and know where to go so it doesnt get a spastic feel. The engine is evidently pretty much done. I also read somewhere that they've been working on ME3 since before ME2 was released. Yes, Im somewhat in denial about the risks, hehe. I love ME2 with passion. As for the actual topic, as someone already said: they should keep refining their niché and not aim for the stereotypical CoD-audience.  What actually saddens me the most is that most people are staring themselves blind on the money. It is an important part to keep the machinery running, but Bioware seem to go with a profit and EA seem to see the cooperation with Bioware as a good deal. So, why is the game being rushed? MORE profits? Whats the point of more profits if you dont use that money to make better quality in order to get an edge vs the competiton and growing the own brand(s)? Why are the non-fiscal values neglected so often? Those are the ones that last in the cultural mind, which gaming fits into.   EA could cut back on terrible ideas instead of cutting back development cycles of games that has potential in its predecessors and in the actual released game. "

EA, like any company nowadays, wants to constantly increase its share price. Keeps shareholders happy, and I'm sure part of their executive compensation is in stock, so EA management has a strong incentive to keep increasing their profits. Unfortunately they'll never say "well we all make a lot of money selling RPGs to this niche, and that's good enough." "

Anyway OP why did you list Kotor 2? surely Kotor 2 is better than DA2, Kotor 2 might have had a really crap ending but its dialogue and its mechanics were certainly superior to the first Kotor. "

<> 
All day. 
Everyday.

" @Mike76x:  Besides the ending Kotor 2 was superior to the first in every way. The first Kotor also had glitches,  and i beg to differ MOST of the characters were better and more diverse compared to Bioware's usual copy paste characters in every game, Obsidian has always been better at writing and dialogue trees than Bioware with their "Yeah, Lol Yeah, FUCK YEAARRR"  dialogue. Bioware is much better at creating universes but they could take a lesson from Obsidian when it comes to writing.  Kotor 2 is definately not the tragedy Dragon Age II is, the only reason the fanboys hate on it so much is because its not by bioware. I'd say be glad Bioware didn't make Kotor 2 it probably would have been ME2 & DA2 lol. What issues Kotor 2 had was mainly because lucas arts rushed it and not because of Obsidian. Honestly at this point if there was ever a Kotor 3 announced i'd want anyone BUT Bioware to develope it since their intent on destroying their own franchises. Kotor 3 by Bioware just might turn into the force unleashed. "

" @iKANNIBAL said:

Anyway OP why did you list Kotor 2? surely Kotor 2 is better than DA2, Kotor 2 might have had a really crap ending but its dialogue and its mechanics were certainly superior to the first Kotor. "

KoToR 2 was horrible. I fell through floors constantly, NONE of the characters were likable, the bad guys were crap, and it was just the worst thing to ever happen to the Star Wars universe in general. "

" It could have benefited from recycling some stuff from DA:O. "

" @Mike76x said:

" @iKANNIBAL said:

Anyway OP why did you list Kotor 2? surely Kotor 2 is better than DA2, Kotor 2 might have had a really crap ending but its dialogue and its mechanics were certainly superior to the first Kotor. "

KoToR 2 was horrible. I fell through floors constantly, NONE of the characters were likable, the bad guys were crap, and it was just the worst thing to ever happen to the Star Wars universe in general. "

I don't even remember any of the characters from KOTOR 2. What does that say? "

I thought ME2 sold way more than 2 mil?

No excuses, they had concepts for DA2 down before the release of DA:O. I seen a dev diary where it was made clear. 8 months to produce a crappy game, and people are praising it? Jesus Christ, what is the matter with the world as of late? We're living in an economic sinkhole, where people are looking for quality, and sinking their money into it...fuck Bioware if they play the 'poor us, we only had a short amount of time to develop our games' card on us...bullshit! Welcome to the big leagues, you've been in it a while now, you aren't some Indie devs who can use that excuse, so don't pull that shit with us. You've got EA backing you, you've made plenty of good games before the recent slump, stop your pathetic groveling to cover your holes, and looking for sympathy, get back to making quality games, and stop making us pay full price for some last minute, glued together project you had so you could make some quick money. Can't believe what pricks they've become. Sorry Bioware, you've flown too high to suddenly pull this crap now.
 
Welcome to the limelight, where critics beat the hell out of you for being incompetent, don't like it? Too bad.

" We're playing a beta. They will sell us the other half of the game through DLC. "

Also, I don't buy this rumor in the first place. It really would be impossible for them to have developed a game of this magnitude in 8 months. Just think about how long it would take to make the assets alone.
 
@Dookysharpgun said:

" No excuses, they had concepts for DA2 down before the release of DA:O. I seen a dev diary where it was made clear. 8 months to produce a crappy game, and people are praising it? Jesus Christ, what is the matter with the world as of late? We're living in an economic sinkhole, where people are looking for quality, and sinking their money into it...fuck Bioware if they play the 'poor us, we only had a short amount of time to develop our games' card on us...bullshit! Welcome to the big leagues, you've been in it a while now, you aren't some Indie devs who can use that excuse, so don't pull that shit with us. You've got EA backing you, you've made plenty of good games before the recent slump, stop your pathetic groveling to cover your holes, and looking for sympathy, get back to making quality games, and stop making us pay full price for some last minute, glued together project you had so you could make some quick money. Can't believe what pricks they've become. Sorry Bioware, you've flown too high to suddenly pull this crap now.  Welcome to the limelight, where critics beat the hell out of you for being incompetent, don't like it? Too bad. "

I have a mind to think they did this to focus everything on Mass Effect 3. Apparently the game is currently playable from start to finish, minus the score, and probably still doing dialogue and squashing bugs/polish.

 Welcome to the limelight, where critics beat the hell out of you for being incompetent, don't like it? Too bad. "

Dragon Age 2 is to Bioware as Load is to Metallica.  This will be where the fanbase fractures. 

In the end, none of this matters because the game is going to be memorable down the road, be it positive or negative.