Simply put, which side to you sympathize with? I'm not talking about any specific choices here, just which side do you agree with?
I personally go for mages, as the templars just seem like jerks. Also, there's something about an outlaw mage that always seems so oddly cool to me.
Dragon Age II
Game » consists of 16 releases. Released Mar 08, 2011
This sequel to Dragon Age: Origins features faster combat, a new art style, and a brand new, fully voiced main character named Hawke.
Templars or Mages (possible spoilers)
If anything, the decision is hard by value of the fact that both sides are dicks.
I predict it will be 90% mages, since Bioware stacked the deck heavily in favor of the mages. It's one of the worst things about what could be a thought-provoking decision. Hey, let's have mages be persecuted by templars because they could legitimately be looked at as dangers to society, and since it's a complex issue where neither side is completely right or wrong let's have that be the main point of the story. Now let's make your character's father a mage, sibling a mage, a possibility that you're a mage, let's make most of your party mages with only one having a strong anti-mage stance (which can easily be viewed as unfair because his issues stem more from slavery than magic), have the Templar leader go power-mad and the Mage leader pleading for peace and reasonable discussion, and then let's pretend like we're presenting the issue fairly. You pretty much have to condemn yourself, your family, your friends, and thousands of innocent people in order to pick the Templar side.
on my second playthrough I sided with the Templars
and I think the situation is not handled properly. I mean, Hawke dialogue says about siding with the Templars to restore order, which is a fine thing, but the whole situation is not being portrayed as such, they should have put more shades of gray into it.
but choices doesn't matter much anyway as no matter what you pick, you get the same ending...
It's really frustrating how there is no proper Chantry option. The proper Chantry law would remove Meredith from power, and restate the Circle to function as the Chant demands.
SPOILERS AHOY
The Templar order under Meredith had clearly violated Chantry law, especially regarding the Circle. In fact, the only thing that is legal under Chantry law was her sending for the Rite of Annulment. Tranquility is never to be practiced upon mages who have finished the Harrowing, only failed apprentices. The Templars adopted roles in both the Circle and Kirkwall beyond their scope. When Leliana visited, it should have been clear to a member of the Chantry and hand of the Divine that law had been violated, and the Templars were beginning to flaunt Chantry law. It is only obvious that the ending has the Templar Order break from the Chantry into some paramilitary organization, regardless of Hawke's choice.
There's a reason why the ending feels far less rewarding than Origins. In the end, it's actually pretty unimportant that your character was there at all. Regardless of your actions, Meredith was going to be driven mad by the profane lyrium, and Anders was going to magic-bomb the Chantry. You bore witness to the instigation of a war between two extremists who were both possessed by demons. Hawke's presence, that of the player, is not necessary whatsoever. The only thing Hawke accomplished was saving the lives of a few of his companions, but Anders and Meredith instigated their sides into open war across the continent.
" Mages. Merril is adorable. "
It doesn't matter:
The endings are identical save for 2-3 lines of Dialog and literally one animation - the Templars either kneel before you or get spooked and give you space.
I hate the Templars since they're zealots, and I hate the Magi since they're all too big a coward to stand up for themselves..........
I'd go Magi I guess, if only so I can see them all turn to demons and wreck havoc.
Or at least that's what should happen.
" It doesn't matter:Also this. Even though I've killed about 100 rogue mages, all that matters is what I say to questgivers on the main quests."
The endings are identical save for 2-3 lines of Dialog and literally one animation - the Templars either kneel before you or get spooked and give you space.
" let's make most of your party mages with only one having a strong anti-mage stance (which can easily be viewed as unfair because his issues stem more from slavery than magic), "Keep in mind that YOUR game is different from other peoples' games. In my game I had at least two anti-mage people (Fenris and Carver and probably Sebastian but I don't run around with him enough). Including myself there were a total of three mages that could be out at any particular time (myself, Anders and Merrill though I hate using her). How is this any more than the three rogues available to me (Sebastian, Isabella, and Varric)?
That's a fair point. I guess I assumed Carver would be pro-mage because of Bethany. In that case though, you're a mage...so it's hard to justify your character siding with Templars, I assume. Sebastian doesn't think mages should run wild, but he thinks the actions of the Templars are overkill. Even after Anders does what he does, Sebastian says that Anders should be punished, not the entire Circle (I had him in my party during that scene). Sebastian seems to side with temperance and reason. So I guess that means 2 pro-Templars if your a mage (which would imply you'd be pro-mage), though Aveline leans Templar, but she's easily persuaded. If you're a warrior, you're not automatically Templar, so you could still reason that you'd side with the mages, since that's what the Hawkes did in Lothering (since Hawke's dad and sister are apostates) and your mother sides with the mages too, in addition to having Anders and Merrill (admittedly two bad examples of mages). I guess it's a bit more balanced, depending on how you look at it, but I still think the game tends to favor Mages over Templars in most instances." @Wrighteous86 said:
" let's make most of your party mages with only one having a strong anti-mage stance (which can easily be viewed as unfair because his issues stem more from slavery than magic), "Keep in mind that YOUR game is different from other peoples' games. In my game I had at least two anti-mage people (Fenris and Carver and probably Sebastian but I don't run around with him enough). Including myself there were a total of three mages that could be out at any particular time (myself, Anders and Merrill though I hate using her). How is this any more than the three rogues available to me (Sebastian, Isabella, and Varric)? "
i helped everyone but its the bloody mages who keep sending demons over to me. so they die and i blame anders.
" @Turambar said:" Mages. Merril is adorable. ""Its pretty cute when everyone in the elven tribe dies because of her.
" @Vonocourt: That's weird, because I totally finished the quest that way and after she said "It's like a bad dream", she never mentioned it ever again. Made her seem like a sociopath. "Same here. I actually loaded up a previous save since I thought it was a bug and chose the other option where they simply let you walk free but she still doesn't bring it up ever again. They really could've tied that quest up better unless I'm missing something.
" @ryanwho said:I had the exact same glitch. I was so confused at first too." @Turambar said:" Mages. Merril is adorable. ""Its pretty cute when everyone in the elven tribe dies because of her.But yeah, Mages seemed like the only choice. 'Specially since my ladyhawke was one. "Fuck that part. My game glitched into some sequence breaking and had her moaning about her clan being slaughtered right at the beginning of act 3, before I even got the quest to head to Sundermount.
Personally, I think the argument that the mages make that you can't punish everyone by association is a pretty strong one, considering in American history it's tended to do be something we've regretted, like the Japanese internment camps in WW2, or the anti-Muslim sentiments since 9/11. Toss that in with the whole gay/race debate, and punishing someone for the situations of their birth and not the contents of their character, and I didn't think the Templar arguments held up as well. Benjamin Franklin once said, " He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither."
" @Vonocourt said:Mine had her talking about them in the present tense like they were still alive. Which added to the creepiness, kind of. Maybe she was in denial? I'm more inclined to think it was an accident." @ryanwho said:I had the exact same glitch. I was so confused at first too. "" @Turambar said:" Mages. Merril is adorable. ""Its pretty cute when everyone in the elven tribe dies because of her.But yeah, Mages seemed like the only choice. 'Specially since my ladyhawke was one. "Fuck that part. My game glitched into some sequence breaking and had her moaning about her clan being slaughtered right at the beginning of act 3, before I even got the quest to head to Sundermount.
It's avoidable." @Turambar said:
" Mages. Merril is adorable. ""Its pretty cute when everyone in the elven tribe dies because of her.
Just choose the option to take the blame.
This is sadly mostly because you do not get to see what exactly your character will actually say and all responces are 3-5 words long." Why would I want to avoid it? Who plays a game with 'consequences' then hovers around the reset button in case they make a bad choice? Bitches, that's who. "
With that particular situation for example you have 0% of a clue what impact any of the 3 choices will actually have. Which is just stupid.
In most cases I don't do it.
Oh and I killed them all regardless :)
As for consequence, DA2 has barely any, your most important choice for example: templar/mages is meaningless.
Mages. Always.
I'm a mage. I'm in a relationship with a mage. Hero of Ferelden was a mage. Son, MAGES.
" Mages need to not be so passive and just take over the world. "They did, it was called the Tevinter Imperium. All those stories about slaves being sacrificed by the hundredfold, the horrible history of Kirkwall and the Bone Pit, that is what happens to mages run amok.
The Templars are only hard to stand with because of Meredith. If the Templars were ran as Chantry law states, if Cullen were Knight-Commander, the decision at the end would probably be more difficult. Meredith seeks to destroy all mages and then everyone else. Cullen (and Chantry law) would dissolve the Circle and rebuild it.
If I'm not mistaken, even the Rite of Annulment isn't as simple as "kill all the mages!" considering I annulled the Fereldan Circle, and it was merely scrubbed clean of demons and blood mages (I'm assuming this involved invasive trials upon the Circle mages and apprentices) and reinstated. Wynne survived and stayed at the Circle into Awakening, and I consulted with the Circle later to find evidence to lead me to Morrigan.
The problem with selecting Templar in the endgame is that Meredith is an irredeemable tyrant who openly broke the law. It's almost as if the game is daring you to be foolish.
" @mazik765: The 92% percent in this thread seems to agree with my point. You're right that it's just under half of your party, I didn't actually do the math when I wrote that, but I can't think of anyone but Fenris that is anti-mage. Aveline is wary about the situation, but she's far from saying that the anti-mage endgame is a good thing. In my game, at least, Fenris was the only one to completely approve of that, whereas the rest felt that the person specifically responsible should be held accountable (a reasonable assertion, in my opinion). In any case, there are, no matter your choices, at least 2 mages in your family, and they are good people who have been forced into hiding or practically arrested because of something they were born with. That, along with the fact that leading up to the endgame, Meredith has been grasping for more power and a police-state, while templars and mages and First Enchanter Orsino are asking for honest debate and peaceful resolutions, make it kind of obvious who the developers thought were the "right" choice. Is that last sentence different in your game, though? I'm curious if that was only the case because of my choices. Personally, I think the argument that the mages make that you can't punish everyone by association is a pretty strong one, considering in American history it's tended to do be something we've regretted, like the Japanese internment camps in WW2, or the anti-Muslim sentiments since 9/11. Toss that in with the whole gay/race debate, and punishing someone for the situations of their birth and not the contents of their character, and I didn't think the Templar arguments held up as well. Benjamin Franklin once said, " He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." "Fenris and Sebastian are both pretty anti-mage. If you get Carver he's pretty anti-mage and Aveline is pretty pro-templar so I'm going to count that as anti-mage :P. The problem with comparing the situtation in-game to the real-world situation of persecuting gays or Muslims is that the last time I checked gays and Muslims weren't really at risk of demonic possession. I was right there with you, I didn't think that every mage is at risk for using blood magic or consorting with demons. No matter how many times the Templars claimed that every mage would use blood magic if the temptation was strong enough I said 'fuck you guys, I'm with the mages). But then as I progressed through Act 3 this claim became more and more true.
""I've been nothing but nice to the mages but time after time they kept fucking me over, even killing my mother. So fuck the mages and fuck Orsino, should have never trusted his elfish ass.
That's true, but in a lot of the cases, I was of the opinion that the harsh conditions they were forced into pushed them into blood magic. People are capable of shitty things when forced into horrible situations (not that that makes it okay). However, you've convinced me that it's not as one-sided as I once believed. Sebastian is pro-Templar, but he also didn't support the "final solution" and stuff at all. He was a follower of the Chantry, and the Chantry believed in protecting lives.
Merill was the biggest reason why I supported the Mages. However I saw why the Templars were a very necessary force so I did my best to support Thrask and Cullen when I could.
" Merill was the biggest reason why I supported the Mages. However I saw why the Templars were a very necessary force so I did my best to support Thrask and Cullen when I could. "That's what I liked about the story so much, there were good people on both sides, no side was totally irredeemable and both could make good arguments for their causes. It made the ending feel that more dramatic.
" Mages.Mages aren't slaves.
I don't support slavery, you guys. "
If anything they are more comparable to prisoners in minimum security.
You know, I was all for the mages till Orsino turned into one of those shitty flesh golems (god I hated that entire quest in Origins!) and then he admitted he helped out my mother's killer with his research. I don't know why Bioware tried to go so much out of their way to prove that everyone and their mother is a bloodmage. Honestly, I get it, temptation and all that jazz, but come on! There's a fine line between staying somewhat believable and going batshit crazy with it!
" @Turambar said:Well it is possible to not kill them. Except for the one. They're still alive in my game." @Vonocourt said:Mine had her talking about them in the present tense like they were still alive. Which added to the creepiness, kind of. Maybe she was in denial? I'm more inclined to think it was an accident. "" @ryanwho said:I had the exact same glitch. I was so confused at first too. "" @Turambar said:" Mages. Merril is adorable. ""Its pretty cute when everyone in the elven tribe dies because of her.But yeah, Mages seemed like the only choice. 'Specially since my ladyhawke was one. "Fuck that part. My game glitched into some sequence breaking and had her moaning about her clan being slaughtered right at the beginning of act 3, before I even got the quest to head to Sundermount.
Please Log In to post.
This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:
Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.Comment and Save
Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.
Log in to comment