The Giant Bomb GOTY podcasts complain thread.

How does their top 10 list look like it was formed in backroom deals?

@OneManX said:

Frog Fractions is the joke I will never understand.

Yeah, it seems weird that all of a sudden everybody was high on it. It was like the random joke game everybody was introduced to a week before the Game Of The Year deliberations and now it should win everything!

I think for the years moving forward, they should really just do a 1st 2nd and 3rd place, and 7 honorable mentions for their top ten. Them having to sort the back 7 just seemed frivolous.

@zudthespud said:

@videogamesarenotart said:

Sleeping Dogs, Syndicate, Farcry 3, and Mass Effect 3 were all better games than Xcom.

Four games where you are a dude (sometimes a lady) shooting things? How original.

Oh hey Patrick didn't know that was you.

I can say they were all better then Journey, which didn't belong on the list at all.

@PsEG said:

This seems like the best place to bury angry ranting thoughts over these awards, so I'd like to rant about a bad decision that's been eating away at me. Seriously, I'm livid over this, and I typically pride myself at not getting angry over game awards.

Need for Speed: Most Wanted does not have the best multiplayer this year, and it's complete horseshit that it's getting any acclaim.

Holy shit. Thank god. I bought most wanted because I heard how good the multiplayer was, and then the first 3 or 4 matches I was thrown in involved no one completing the challenges, and was just everyone knocking people out within 2 seconds. It was way too easy to get eliminated in that game. It was nowhere near as good as paradise, or hot pursuit.

@ShadowConqueror said:

Overall I feel satisfied with the discussions this year. Diablo 3 maybe deserved at least a name drop during the top 10 discussion, but that's really my only gripe. XCOM deserved to win. The Walking Dead deserved second place. All is right in the Giant Bomb world.

THIS SO GOD DAMN MUCH. Also last year seemed better honestly. They argued a lot more and were more passionate. This year was a lot of "well I guess I'll concede" or "well I won't raise a stink about it", etc. No I WANT you to raise a stink about it. That's what makes it great.

@JasonLeeson said:

Max Payne 3 should have been number 10 on the list. I'm sorry but it just should've.

Absolutely. Game was fantastic. Then again I'm sure someone would've shot it down because huurrrr....durrrr....shooting.

Also as someone mentioned Jeff was pretty crafty getting Syndicate to be that high. Kind of just flew over people's heads.

Overall it seemed Vinny and Ryan were generally the voices of reason and the most rational. Patrick was on his "has to be original kick" (ZombiU had NO business being on that list), and Jeff was on his anti Nintendo/Mass Effect agenda (which I'm glad Brad/Vinny called him on).

@Hunkulese said:

Most of the games you listed aren't stealth games. Just because a game has some stealth sequences doesn't make it a stealth game. Skyrim a stealth game? Really? Are you going to use Far Cry 3 to make a point about the current state of driving games? Stealth games use stealth as the core mechanic and are designed as around it.

They didn't just come out and say stealth games suck rawr! They went over the reasons they don't like stealth games and what MotN did to improve on that. The few games you mentioned that are actually stealth games are great examples of what they don't like.

It's ridiculous when people take some podcasts personal opinion and equate it to be the all encompassing view of gamers everywhere.

Skyrim (and, by association, Fallout 3) are very specific cases where you can play them as stealth games, though I understand most people don't. I've spent 25 of my 30 or so hours playing Skyrim as a stealth archer, and it's an absolute blast playing the game that way. It's a...weird example, yeah, sure. I grant you that. But you can play those games as stealth games. And in Skyrim? I've done so as much as possible, which is a shocking amount of the game.

I also forgot to mention Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which is enough of a stealth game that Kojima is planning to rip from it for the next MGS. Though the "pure stealth" playthrough is damaged by the boss battles, of course.

But outside of Uncharted and Far Cry 3 (well, and Halo 3 and CoD 4, but I made it clear I was only mentioning those for a singular great mission), I'd argue that the vast majority of those games are largely stealth-focused experiences. Are they easy? Several are. Are they mixed experiences? Yeah, Batman and Assassin's Creed have been striking a balance between action and stealth since '09, but there's definitely an advantage to stealth in all scenarios in those games, and several sequences where use of stealth is near-required to advance. I'll point out that MGS2 and 3 have sequences where a direct fight is forced as well.

As for the "all-encompassing opinion" comment, I didn't say "everyone stop saying stealth sucks waaaaaaaaaah." I said that Ryan, Vinny, Jeff and Brad + Patrick are not the only people I've heard heap praise unnecessarily towards those two. My point was mainly that a stealth game or a stealth-oriented action game has pretty much been in the conversation about Game of the Year at most outlets for the last...five years? It wasn't always the front-runner, and I'd say 2010 was the weakest year of the set for stealth games by a lot, but there's been plenty of great stealth for a long time.

I think Far Cry 2, Deus Ex, Batman, Assassin's, MGS4, and Splinter Cell are all absolutely "stealth games", with varying degrees of purity. BioShock isn't forced into considering itself an RPG, despite its plasmids being the most interesting part of the game.

Basically, as someone who considers himself a pretty big fan of "stealth in games" even if I'm not necessarily a massive fan of "stealth games," I didn't find MotN to be any kind of revelation.

@JasonLeeson said:

Max Payne 3 should have been number 10 on the list. I'm sorry but it just should've.

Why?

@Napalm: Because it was just better than ZombiU and Sleeping Dogs.

Now, ok, there is a debate to be had for Sleeping Dogs Vs. Max Payne 3 - But there is NO SUCH DISCUSSION NECESSARY for ZombiU. C'mon, really?

Glad Fez was 4th though.

@JasonLeeson said:

@Napalm: Because it was just better than ZombiU and Sleeping Dogs.

Now, ok, there is a debate to be had for Sleeping Dogs Vs. Max Payne 3 - But there is NO SUCH DISCUSSION NECESSARY for ZombiU. C'mon, really?

Glad Fez was 4th though.

Your defense is, "because it's better than those other games"? You're not very good at this, are you?

@Napalm: ZombiU for instance. I think it was given a by because it's a launch title and it was surprisingly good for what it was. But it's that element of surprise which can cloud ones overall judgement of 'but was it ACTUALLY a better game than X'.

It'll be interesting to see just how well ZombiU holds up as this 'Top 10 worthy' game over the course of this year when developers get to grips with the WiiU and develop some meaningful games for it, perhaps exposing ZombiU as a merely average game by established platform standards.

Dishonored was better than ZombiU

Max Payne 3 was better than ZombiU

Hell, even Hotline Miami was better than ZombiU

The game was cool, but not meaningfulenough to be named 'One of the top 10 games of the year 2012'.

Just no. No.

It was part of the 'each person picks a game' section of the list.

@JasonLeeson said:

Dishonored was better than ZombiU

Max Payne 3 was better than ZombiU

Hell, even Hotline Miami was better than ZombiU

The game was cool, but not meaningfulenough to be named 'One of the top 10 games of the year 2012'.

Just no. No.

ZombiU was more meaninful than Max Payne 3 and Hotline Miami. It being a launch title that uses the new control scheme in an interesting way makes it meaningful in how developers use the touch screen going forward. Max Payne was the same slowdown mechanics, and Hotline Miami was a retro game with good music. Dishonored is probably the only other meaningful game you listed, being able to beat a game without killing anyone is pretty damn interesting, and having it affect the ending depending on how many people you kill is something we might see other games use in the future.

@kishinfoulux said:

@zudthespud said:

@videogamesarenotart said:

Sleeping Dogs, Syndicate, Farcry 3, and Mass Effect 3 were all better games than Xcom.

Four games where you are a dude (sometimes a lady) shooting things? How original.

Oh hey Patrick didn't know that was you.

I can say they were all better then Journey, which didn't belong on the list at all.

I understand not liking Journey but saying it did not belong is a bit much.

@kishinfoulux said:

@cthomer5000 said:

@Pr1mus said:

@Village_Guy said:

I think Mark of the Ninja deserved to be placed higher, that is my only complaint regarding the actual Game of the Year stuff.

A side note though, is that I fucking love stealth games, and Patrick annoyed me when he flat out said that stealth sucks and no-one said anything in the defense of stealth games. I love stealth games, they provide some of the most satisfying experiences, and I don't like when people dismiss stealth with the only reasoning that stealth - apparently - sucks.

Agreed and Jeff sorta shut him up on that yesterday by pointing him to some of his own favorite games like Mark of the Ninja and Dishonored. He really needs to drop it with this all or nothing attitude he has about certain games or genre. It always the greatest thing ever or complete garbage. There's never any middle ground. You can't keep gushing about Dishonored and Mark of the Ninja all year long and constantly dismiss the whole genre.

This year Patrick has raved about Dishonored, Mark Of the Ninja, and Hitman Blood Money, yet says that "stealth sucks" at every turn. Maybe he is conflicted.

Because he talks like a gaf kiddie sometimes. It's fucking aggravating. We get it. You think stealth sucks (you're wrong, but your opinion).

He's just way too extreme calling games "dog shit" and things like that.

PATRICKS GOT THREE WORDS FOR YOU!

Most annoying part of the GOTY podcasts:

Patrick: "[Something]-"

Somebody Else: "[Trying to contribute to the discussion]"

Patrick: "[SOMETHING LOUDER UNTIL FINISHED]"

Second most annoying part:

Jeff: "Even though fuckin' nobody else in this room gives a shit about DOA5 multiplayer, let's talk about it because I super like it because it's a well-executed derivative thing."

Jeff, minutes later: "Mass Effect 3 multiplayer isn't very good because it's a well-executed derivative thing."

Alex Navarro

I have a suggestion:

Having listened to the day 5 podcast now, it seems to me that a lot of how that final top 10 played out had as much to do with fatigue and wanting to get the podcast over with than it did about righteous choosing of the year's best games. Since the overall GOTY is the most important bit of the end of year awards, perhaps that should be the first thing deliberated on in future, when everybody is still fresh and engaged in the process, as opposed to the last when everyone is tired and the giving of fucks is few and far between.

I also agree with a previous poster that it makes more sense to make the top 10 a top 3 ordered choices, with seven honourable mentions. The ordering of the bottom seven is stupid and meaningless.

@HerbieBug said:

I have a suggestion:

Having listened to the day 5 podcast now, it seems to me that a lot of how that final top 10 played out had as much to do with fatigue and wanting to get the podcast over with than it did about righteous choosing of the year's best games. Since the overall GOTY is the most important bit of the end of year awards, perhaps that should be the first thing deliberated on in future, when everybody is still fresh and engaged in the process, as opposed to the last when everyone is tired and the giving of fucks is few and far between.

I also agree with a previous poster that it makes more sense to make the top 10 a top 3 ordered choices, with seven honourable mentions. The ordering of the bottom seven is stupid and meaningless.

I kind of preferred how they did GOTY the first couple of years. I really don't care as much about hearing he deliberations for the other categories, but the four hour knockdown in 2008 for GOTY was awesome.

Completely overlooked The Rabbids Land MiiVerse community.

The fact that the Walking Dead, a visual novel that features a manipulative, pulpy story with zombies in it, is receiving any amount of acclaim in the press continues to baffle me.

This is the year I've become disillusioned with the gaming press: defending Mass Effect 3, Doritogate, 1reasonwhy, and now TWD is critically acclaimed? I don't think their opinions are to be trusted anymore; they swallowed the blue pill.

@Xtrminatr said:

ZombiU was more meaninful than Max Payne 3 and Hotline Miami. It being a launch title that uses the new control scheme in an interesting way makes it meaningful in how developers use the touch screen going forward. Max Payne was the same slowdown mechanics, and Hotline Miami was a retro game with good music.

I'm sorry but 'they did a interesting job at using a second screen' does not cut it. The core game itself has been done masterfully better in Dark Souls.

If you don't think the atmosphere, settings and dialog in Max Payne 3 created anything meaningful, then I don't know what to tell you.

@HerbieBug said:

The ordering of the bottom seven is stupid and meaningless.

Sir, I could not disagree more. Every single place of that list means something. Fez being fourth and the fight for 10th was an event itself.

I was a little confused by the argument, that The Walking Dead being a lightning strike counted against it? If we are unlikely to see someone ever create which has such a huge impact on the players emotionally, and in the entire gaming business, isn't that more special/deserving of praise than something that's easier to see where it goes?

I'm really excited for the GTAV vs. Bioshock Infinite argument next year.

@kishinfoulux said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

Overall I feel satisfied with the discussions this year. Diablo 3 maybe deserved at least a name drop during the top 10 discussion, but that's really my only gripe. XCOM deserved to win. The Walking Dead deserved second place. All is right in the Giant Bomb world.

THIS SO GOD DAMN MUCH. Also last year seemed better honestly. They argued a lot more and were more passionate. This year was a lot of "well I guess I'll concede" or "well I won't raise a stink about it", etc. No I WANT you to raise a stink about it. That's what makes it great.

I agree that I wish they would have fought for their choices more. I chalk it up to all the hate that Brad was getting in the forums leading up to this, about how people find it annoying that he tends to not back down from his argument when he feels really strongly for a game. I can see the guys looking at that and going. "Huh, I guess our audience doesn't want a 4 hour deliberation on what we felt deserved to be the top ten games of the year. Let's just wrap this shit up and go get some tacos!"

I also found it hilarious how Jeff swindled everyone into not only letting Syndicate on the list despite not having played it for themselves, but also ranking it number 7, while Vinny had to fight so damn hard just to get a spot for Sleeping Dogs, and even then it is only 10th.

The fact that the Walking Dead, a visual novel that features a manipulative, pulpy story with zombies in it, is receiving any amount of acclaim in the press continues to baffle me.

This is the year I've become disillusioned with the gaming press: defending Mass Effect 3, Doritogate, 1reasonwhy, and now TWD is critically acclaimed? I don't think their opinions are to be trusted anymore; they swallowed the blue pill.

@Cretaceous_Bob said:

Most annoying part of the GOTY podcasts:

Patrick: "[Something]-"

Somebody Else: "[Trying to contribute to the discussion]"

Patrick: "[SOMETHING LOUDER UNTIL FINISHED]"

under stress, people's voices change: tensing of speech-production muscles, increased vocal pitch, increased speed of speech, and repetition of words or phrases are all normal dysfluencies. in a stressful situation (as in the podcasts and on Quick Looks), stuttering usually occurs on the first sound of the first word. i've made this observation before, but i suspect that Patrick might have very mild form of stuttering; when he is interrupted while talking, he repeats the first sound of the word he was saying at that point, several times in rapid succession, each at an increasing volume, until he can finish out the thought. the same happens when he, in turn, jumps in and interrupts someone else.

what i'm saying is it could well be an involuntary psychophysical response--and not some intentionally mean-spirited offense. it sounds silly and i doubt it would happen, but it would help if they would raise their hand to speak with Ryan directing vocal traffic.

@HerbieBug said:

it seems to me that a lot of how that final top 10 played out had as much to do with fatigue and wanting to get the podcast over with than it did about righteous choosing of the year's best games. Since the overall GOTY is the most important bit of the end of year awards, perhaps that should be the first thing deliberated on in future, when everybody is still fresh and engaged in the process, as opposed to the last when everyone is tired and the giving of fucks is few and far between.

I also agree with a previous poster that it makes more sense to make the top 10 a top 3 ordered choices, with seven honourable mentions. The ordering of the bottom seven is stupid and meaningless.

yes and yes.

deliberating on the most important overall GOTY on Day One makes so much sense. if they want to keep the suspense throughout the week, they could simply record first, and release on Day Five.

changing from 'Top 10' to 'Top 3' would mean much more bloodshed since each person wouldn't be able to concede to taking the lesser consolation categories. and user consensus seems to be in favour of increased bloodshed. personally, i'd like that, also. sadly, the GOTY podcasts do not feel like they are for the regular user: these GOTY podcasts seem to be for the transparency of the picking process, largely a dutiful (journalistic?) explanation to--and a teeny handshake with--industry professionals, and as such, i don't see them culling the 'Top 10.'

I love listening to the GOTY podcasts, but I don't really care what the actual results are because I already have my own top 10. Even when I feel like complaining about their choices I try not to, because honestly, who really gives a shit. The GB staff won't, most of the users here won't and even I won't in less than a month probably. All that being said, since there is a dedicated thread this year I'll be a real hypocrite and I'll throw out just a couple things that annoyed me.

I think ME3 multiplayer is much better than they were giving it credit for. I've played quite a few horde modes and I definitely think ME3 is better than pretty much all of them. It's the abundance of classes that really makes it better. Even among the classes there is differences. A human Vanguard does not play the same way a Krogan Vanguard plays. Also, my biggest gripe every year is when they start disqualifying something because of completely untrue things. There was one example in the ME3 multiplayer talk when they were talking about how you need to spend money to get the booster pack things (I forget what they're actually called) and how the ultimate tier is near impossible to get otherwise. I've put probably 15 hours or so into it and I've bought at least 7 or 8 of those packs. At least Brad tried to correct them.

I don't think anyone wanted to say it on the podcast, but maybe Jeff is just no good at playing Hotline Miami. Once you have a good grasp of all the controls Alex is exactly right, it's basically Super Meat Boy-esque. I played so many levels over trying to get the highest combos. By the end of my time with the game it was kind of amazing how fast I could fly through some of those levels. I love the soundtrack, but I think there is a lot more to Hotline Miami then just that.

Positive thing!: I'm glad ME3 got put in the overall top 10. I really like that game and I get real bummed when everyone shits on it. Thanks @Brad

So they had a Best Walking Dead Episode of the Year, but not best handheld game? Did I miss something?

@Dethfish said:

Positive thing!: I'm glad ME3 got put in the overall top 10. I really like that game and I get real bummed when everyone shits on it. Thanks @Brad

That's probably my biggest issue, and partly why I've stopped listening to the bombcast and some quick looks, I hate it when someone completely shits on a game even if I like it or not. Maybe it's me being overly diplomatic, but even if I hate a game I will try to find positive stuff about it, and I'll certainly never shit on it the way Jeff and Patrick did to ME3 (for instance), it's something the staff does way to much in my opinion, some find it endearing/funny but I really dislike that. It's probably also why I love Vinny so much.

Jeff's opinion seems to be worth more than about 2.5 others in the room combined. The best example of this I think was 2 years ago when he straight up kicked Red Dead Redemption off of the GOTY discussion because he was the only one who didn't like it. Granted, it may have been a symptom of the whole "Best 360/PS3/PC game" split, but goddammit RDR deserved way more consideration than it got at the end. Basically it seems like if Jeff doesn't like a game, good luck getting it to the top. On the other hand, if he's the only one who likes a game, good luck keeping it off the list, eg Syndicate.

I also wanna bring up the whole spoiler thing again, and not because I got anything spoiled for me. It's because during a discussion on Journey, Brad and Vinny were trying to talk about the ending being awesome without giving anything away, and then Patrick just chimed in with "YEAH WHEN YOU DIE". I had already played/finished the game by then but that still rubbed me the wrong way and quite vigorously. It just seemed childish and completely irreverent of his coworkers' efforts, however misguided they may or may not have been.

Ryan, Jeff and Alex put Forza Horizon at 6, 5, and 5 on their lists, and it got pushed off by Brad and Patrick (who haven't played it) saying "it's just a racing game." Probably the only real bummer of the last podcast for me. Clearly the three who had played it didn't find the need to fight for it so it ain't a thang or anything but it's lame from my perspective because it's one of the most fun games I've played in a long time, racing or otherwise. The ones who played it felt the same and the ones who didn't dismissed it in pretty bad fashion. Oh well. Fun times at the end of the year. I enjoyed the last couple of podcasts a lot.

It's a shame they put stuff like ME3 on the top 10 list rather than FTL or Hotline Miami. Other than that, love you guys.

@JasonLeeson said:

Dishonored was better than ZombiU

Max Payne 3 was better than ZombiU

Hell, even Hotline Miami was better than ZombiU

The game was cool, but not meaningfulenough to be named 'One of the top 10 games of the year 2012'.

Just no. No.

Have you played ZombiU?

@glyn said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@cthomer5000 said:

@Pr1mus said:

@Village_Guy said:

I think Mark of the Ninja deserved to be placed higher, that is my only complaint regarding the actual Game of the Year stuff.

A side note though, is that I fucking love stealth games, and Patrick annoyed me when he flat out said that stealth sucks and no-one said anything in the defense of stealth games. I love stealth games, they provide some of the most satisfying experiences, and I don't like when people dismiss stealth with the only reasoning that stealth - apparently - sucks.

Agreed and Jeff sorta shut him up on that yesterday by pointing him to some of his own favorite games like Mark of the Ninja and Dishonored. He really needs to drop it with this all or nothing attitude he has about certain games or genre. It always the greatest thing ever or complete garbage. There's never any middle ground. You can't keep gushing about Dishonored and Mark of the Ninja all year long and constantly dismiss the whole genre.

This year Patrick has raved about Dishonored, Mark Of the Ninja, and Hitman Blood Money, yet says that "stealth sucks" at every turn. Maybe he is conflicted.

Because he talks like a gaf kiddie sometimes. It's fucking aggravating. We get it. You think stealth sucks (you're wrong, but your opinion).

He's just way too extreme calling games "dog shit" and things like that.

PATRICKS GOT THREE WORDS FOR YOU!

Oh and also

SUCK MY DICK

Why are they so damn awesome?!!!!!

@JasonLeeson said:

@Xtrminatr said:

ZombiU was more meaninful than Max Payne 3 and Hotline Miami. It being a launch title that uses the new control scheme in an interesting way makes it meaningful in how developers use the touch screen going forward. Max Payne was the same slowdown mechanics, and Hotline Miami was a retro game with good music.

I'm sorry but 'they did a interesting job at using a second screen' does not cut it. The core game itself has been done masterfully better in Dark Souls.

If you don't think the atmosphere, settings and dialog in Max Payne 3 created anything meaningful, then I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah, Dark Souls is a great survival horror game with zombies and limited ammo, you're right about that. If we're talking about meaningful dialogue and atmosphere then Spec Ops should have been in the top 10. I'm not saying ZombiU should have been on the list, because it shouldn't have. Dishonored should have taken that spot, probably. Either way, I don't really care about what their top 10 was. The top 3-4 are really all that matters on the list, and it's no personal offense to me what games they decided were best.

Just finished the final day, and I'm sorry but ZombiU does not belong anywhere near the top 10.

I'm going to go ahead and throw my hat into the ring into the argument (which I'm sure, even though I haven't read the last 200+ posts in this thread, is already brewing) by saying that it is unbelievable that ZombiU was in the top ten and Hotline Miami was not. I literally don't believe it. No, I actually do mean literally.

Hotline Miami is probably the best action game any of us will ever play. It facilitates satisfying long-fiber and short-fiber tactical experiences, has a cohesive aesthetic, and feels like it was made by human god damn beings, which isn't something I can say for many games. It was so funny to me that, around when they cut Hotline Miami from the list, they talked about some hypothetical future game that seamlessly mixes the slow, deliberate combat decision making of a Dark Souls-alike with the twitchy experience of playing a faster action game, making it a decision between the two and maybe even more styles instead of having it feel right to some people and not right to others. That game is not hypothetical--its name is Hotline Miami.

Alex did what he could, but I think Hotline Miami unfortunately just didn't get its hooks into any of the main Bombcasters. I think it's a game that can be easy to put down when it starts subverting expectations. It's a shame but I'm not going to get too personally tied up about it. I do think Jeff should just maybe give it some time then check it out again and keep in mind that most weapons are equally viable and that firing guns isn't always a great choice. I went through most of Hotline Miami filleting motherfuckers with knives, usually just using guns to stun guys from across the room. And I realize that this sounds like either "he just wasn't playing it right!" or "I need a writer to validate my taste in games!" but I swear it's not. I just think it's a cool game that has a lot to offer.

So personally, I'll get over it, because I have my own personal list of favorite games of this year and it can hang out with Alex's list and together be the best lists. Academically, though? Academically, I am seething.

@MariachiMacabre said:

"They liked this game I don't like. Even though I'm in the minority, they must be crazy. Everyone but me is crazy."

"It's a good thing the majority is always right! If an opinion is popular it must be true."

@bvilleneuve: I finished that game this morning and i disagree. The game had something going for it, but its execution was very flawed.

Like most indie retro games it banks heavily on its artistic style, soundtrack, and atmosphere to entertain well beyond the means of its own core gameplay mechanics.

• The gameplay was unrefined and lazily slapped together
• The AI refused to work at times: Many times the enemies just stood there doing absolutely nothing as I murdered their allies 2 feet away
• The weapons were not balanced at all: I ran around with a knife that somehow was better than a fully automatic assault rifle
• there was literally no skill involved in the gameplay: it was just repetitious trial and error akin to something like a poorly made platformer
• The game overstayed its welcome: About halfway through the game I wanted it to end, it offered nothing new and did not expand on itself.

It had potential but the amount of praise you are giving it is unwarranted.

@videogamesarenotart: The AI is simplistic but rewardingly complex. I can't speak to those AI problems you had, because I didn't have any of those types of problems. The weapons are perfectly balanced; in any situation, if your timing and knowledge of the game's rules are advanced enough, you can get by with pretty much any weapon. Also I don't think it's problematic that a knife is better than a gun in close-quarters combat. There are other situations where an assault rifle will wreck your shit.

Your statements about the gameplay are vague enough to mean almost anything. Do you have any examples of how it was "unrefined and lazily slapped together"? Because when I play Hotline Miami I feel as though I'm puzzling out how to approach a series of situations that have been put together with enormous intentionality by a caring yet vengeful creator. It may not introduce new gameplay mechanics constantly, but it does frequently add new wrinkles.

@bvilleneuve: what are you taking notes from the giantbomb staff with that "i haven't had any of those problems" retort ?

The issues exist. In every corner of this game you can fire a gun then sit in a corner as all the enemies in the vicinity march up in a single file line to be killed one after another as you spam the attack button.

The gameplay is simply trial and error with no depth. I don't know how I can be any more specific than that. There is no skill ceiling, there is no mastering of this game other than through repetition and memorization of enemy placement. It is like playing super meat boy only now the platforming is floaty and inconsistent and the controls have suddenly become a hot mess of garbage. Its an unrefined game that was slapped together, every part of the game feels unfinished.

@videogamesarenotart: Discrete skills to master in Hotline Miami: Maneuvering, weapon choice, group management, enemy recognition, environmental concerns, noise management. That's all just off the top of my head, having not played in a couple months. If I took a couple hours to play and write, I could probably come up with more.

Also that's not an AI issue, that's just the design of the AI. Verisimilitude isn't the goal of every aspect of Hotline Miami, believe it or not.

Look, like I said, I'm not going to get tied up in knots over somebody not liking Hotline Miami. It just doesn't grab some people. But to claim that it is a broken, unfinished, slapped together game is just insulting and reeks of the childish impulse to always be objectively right in one's preferences.

Cutting Forza Horizon cause it's just a racing game is fucking stupid.

@XenoNick: That is harsh but I agree with the sentiment. I bet Forza could of gotten in the top 10.

@ImmortalSaiyan said:

@XenoNick: That is harsh but I agree with the sentiment. I bet Forza could of gotten in the top 10.

True I didn't mean it to come across so harsh (It's 1:30ish in the morning here and can't sleep)

@joshthebear: but its neat and interesting

saying those two words again must make it a valid argument that the game is top 10 material

Neat and interesting