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#1 Edited by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -

I know I talked about this before, but I didn't go into the entire subject in general. There seems to be this huge beef with the hardcore gaming audience, where they despise any casual game that appeals to a wider market. 
 
Like Pop Cap games, Wii games, Farmville, and so forth. 

They go as far as to hating games that not only appeal to a hardcore market, but maintain casual friendly appeal. Such as; games from Blizzard, the Call of Duty series, Halo series, Sports games, Oblivion, and the Guitar Hero series. 
 
I really feel it's pathetic of them to the feel like gaming should only just appeal to "gamers" (A word that I'm getting sick of). What's wrong with games that appeal to people? Is there anything wrong with game that are simple to get into? It's sad. I'm really the biggest fan of casual games, but I can enjoy them from time to time. Heck, it's good for the industry and receive a large profit. Games shouldn't just appeal to one demographic, it should appeal to a larger audience, like other mediums. 
 
I have to admit, that some games are just WAY too hardcore for their own good. Do I really have to read a three-hundred page manual to play a game? Or travel a thousand miles real-time, where I have to fight flying carnivores that attack at every corner, just to get to a simple destination to complete a fetch quest?

#2 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -

Yes.  A lot of hatred.  People on the internet hate everything that isn't explicitly tailored for them and hates everyone that likes/loves it.

#3 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5806 posts) -

Peggle is fun.
 
that is all.

#4 Posted by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -
@FancySoapsMan said:
" Peggle is fun.  that is all. "
Peggle kicks-f***ing-ass!
#5 Posted by FinalDasa (1497 posts) -

I think some hardcore gamers associate pride with being able to understand a complicated game and rightfully so. They have spent hours and money into their video game hobby and seeing someone else just playing farmville can be frustrating.  
 
But I agree with you, casual games get an undeserved hatred. I enjoy the majority of Popcap games, Wii games are a great way to have fun with friends who won't normally game, and despite Farmville being very simple is could lead to more gaming in the future.  
 
I think gamers just get afraid of "others" taking over their beloved industry and forcing Gears of War into Kinect minigame collections. Then again Tetris would be considered a "casual game" by those gamers standards. 

#6 Posted by Video_Game_King (36047 posts) -

Yes, and it's stupid as hell. Didn't we all start off as casual gamers, playing Pokemon and Mario (or Crash Bandicoot, or Number Munchers, or Sonic, or whatever your equivalent is) before moving onto the more hardcore shit? Hell, didn't gaming itself start off as casual? How can you tell me that the Atari and NES were geared specifically to a hardcore audience?

#7 Posted by Interfect (978 posts) -

We all wanted gaming to be more accepted and popular in a way, Beggars cant be choosers.

#8 Posted by JackSukeru (5904 posts) -

ITT: haters hating on haters.

#9 Posted by JoelTGM (5596 posts) -

You put popcap games and farmville in the same sentence?  Whatever, I don't know what people you're talking about, but it's no surprise that people don't care for bad minigame collections or dumb facebook games.  Nothing else to it.  The Wii just happens to be a magnet for those kinds of bad games, but when a good Wii game comes out people do give it credit.  There's a lot of random games being thrown at these motion controlled platforms now, and many of them are terrible, so of course people will make fun or trash talk that stuff.

#10 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
 Do I really have to read a three-hundred page manual to play a game?
 
Where are these manuals you speak of? Video games are easier now than they have ever been. I should know. So-called hardcore games scared the hell out of me, but now I can play anything. Developers are making their games for mass appeal more and more. Mass Effect 2 for example was streamlined so that a mass audience could enjoy it and it was grand.
#11 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -
@DOUBLESHOCK said:
" You put popcap games and farmville in the same sentence?  Whatever, I don't know what people you're talking about, but it's no surprise that people don't care for bad minigame collections or dumb facebook games."
Maybe people like facebook games because they are fun, addicting and can be picked up at any time?  And games like Rockband/ Guitar Hero are games that appeal to those people too as well as Halo and Call of Duty so casual games aren't bad but there are bad casual games?
#12 Posted by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -
@Claude said:
"  Do I really have to read a three-hundred page manual to play a game?  Where are these manuals you speak of? "
There was this real-time strategy game that required the player to read a incredibly thick manual, in order o understand the basics of the game.
#13 Posted by BeachThunder (11704 posts) -

I think you'll find that this whole thing really breaks down once you realise that terms like "gamer", "casual", "hardcore" etc... are pretty much nonsense terms.

#14 Posted by smudo (150 posts) -
@Video_Game_King: I disagree with calling Pokémon a casual game, but respect your choice to do so.
#15 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
@GhostlyEnigma said:
" @Claude said:
"  Do I really have to read a three-hundred page manual to play a game?  Where are these manuals you speak of? "
There was this real-time strategy game that required the player to read a incredibly thick manual, in order o understand the basics of the game. "
Well, they did make Civilization Revolution for consoles but that was turn-based. I remember buying Civ IV and got this huge book with it. I barely read it. Actually, everything in it was in the game. Real-time strategy games on the PC are probably the last of the hardcore gamer games out there. Eventually, they will become more streamlined as well. But who doesn't like catering to a bigger audience when it comes to selling more units. In truth, I probably agree with you.
#16 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -
@smudo said:
" @Video_Game_King: I disagree with calling Pokémon a casual game, but respect your choice to do so. "
Why?
#17 Posted by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -
@smudo said:
" @Video_Game_King: I disagree with calling Pokémon a casual game, but respect your choice to do so. "
Pokemon is badass.
 
@BeachThunder
said:
" I think you'll find that this whole thing really breaks down once you realise that terms like "gamer", "casual", "hardcore" etc... are pretty much nonsense terms. "
Someday, I really hope these three terms die.
#18 Posted by jakob187 (21644 posts) -

I think gamers need to learn that times have changed.  Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how something like Metal Gear Solid or Xenosaga can even be called a game.  Those are interactive movies.

#19 Posted by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -
@jakob187 said:
" I think gamers need to learn that times have changed.  Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how something like Metal Gear Solid or Xenosaga can even be called a game.  Those are interactive movies. "
Very badly written movies I might say. 
 
Okay, okay. I admit MGS and MGS3 were great, MGS2 and 4 on the other hand.... 
 
Also, Xenogears > Every Xenosaga game combined.
#20 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -
@GhostlyEnigma said:
" @jakob187 said:
" I think gamers need to learn that times have changed.  Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how something like Metal Gear Solid or Xenosaga can even be called a game.  Those are interactive movies. "
Very badly written movies I might say.  Okay, okay. I admit MGS and MGS3 were great, MGS2 and 4 on the other hand....  Also, Xenogears > Every Xenosaga game combined. "
Why did you decide to bash games for no real reason?
#21 Posted by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -
@SethPhotopoulos said:
" @GhostlyEnigma said:
" @jakob187 said:
" I think gamers need to learn that times have changed.  Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how something like Metal Gear Solid or Xenosaga can even be called a game.  Those are interactive movies. "
Very badly written movies I might say.  Okay, okay. I admit MGS and MGS3 were great, MGS2 and 4 on the other hand....  Also, Xenogears > Every Xenosaga game combined. "
Why did you decide to bash games for no real reason? "
Sorry that I bashed your favorite games. Its just... *sigh* How can I put his? 
 
... 
... 
... 
 
I'm bi-polar. 
#22 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5117 posts) -
@GhostlyEnigma: It's weird that you wrote that in like the guy in the bi-polar commercials.
#23 Posted by Gamer_152 (14053 posts) -

I've already written a little on this myself (see the 'Anger' section), but in short I believe that everyone should have the right to enjoy video games and that people who play casual games get far too much undeserved hate.

Moderator
#24 Posted by iam3green (14390 posts) -

yeah, sure they are. a lot of games are marked for casual games. there aren't a lot of games that are made for hardcore people anymore. they should add more things into the game for casual players to play and hardcore things for the people that want to spend a lot of time on.  in that way everyone would be equal to enjoy the game. 
 
i don't really like the terms that people use.

#25 Posted by tourgen (4427 posts) -

casual games are fine.  I like a well crafted, simple arcade or puzzle game as much as anyone.
 
There are some games that seem to be built around manipulation of the psychological state of the user and step over the "evil line".  Farmville comes to mind.  If their gameplay is essentially Progress Quest with a very thin layer of frosting over the top then the game is evil and deserves to be ridiculed and destroyed.
 
MMOs are almost there.  Usually there is more to them tho, enough to actually call them a game.

#26 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

The hatred is more towards the company that abandon their roots and go in for nothing but cash. Look at Nintendo, they were never the Gears of War type, but they made games that were for gamers none the less. Now, the Wii only has a handful of games worth playing, after years of development time.

#27 Posted by trophyhunter (5800 posts) -
@Video_Game_King said:
" Yes, and it's stupid as hell. Didn't we all start off as casual gamers, playing Pokemon and Mario (or Crash Bandicoot, or Number Munchers, or Sonic, or whatever your equivalent is) before moving onto the more hardcore shit? Hell, didn't gaming itself start off as casual? How can you tell me that the Atari and NES were geared specifically to a hardcore audience? "
Well hardcore and the casual did exist  yet. It was these are the games. don't like them, toooooooo bad
#28 Posted by trophyhunter (5800 posts) -
@GhostlyEnigma said:
" @jakob187 said:
" I think gamers need to learn that times have changed.  Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how something like Metal Gear Solid or Xenosaga can even be called a game.  Those are interactive movies. "
Very badly written movies I might say.  Okay, okay. I admit MGS and MGS3 were great, MGS2 and 4 on the other hand....  Also, Xenogears > Every Xenosaga game combined. "
Xenogears is a fantastic game
#29 Posted by Video_Game_King (36047 posts) -
@trophyhunter: 
 
Still, though, the games were marketed to a casual audience. The gameplay was simple, easy to pick up, and the stories were the same.
#30 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -
@GhostlyEnigma said:
" I have to admit, that some games are just WAY too hardcore for their own good. Do I really have to read a three-hundred page manual to play a game? Or travel a thousand miles real-time, where I have to fight flying carnivores that attack at every corner, just to get to a simple destination to complete a fetch quest? "
Can you explain what a "hardcore" game is? 
#31 Edited by owl_of_minerva (1455 posts) -

There's a lack of clarity about what 'casual' is meant to denote. A game like Guitar Hero or Pokemon is theoretically accessible to anyone, but can become absurdly hard and complex if one tries to master them. Other games that are referred to as 'casual' are simply puzzle games, whether they are more or less simple than any other puzzle games is besides the point. Based on those criteria I would refer to Batman: Arkham Asylum a casual game due to the extreme simplicity of its combat and stealth mechanics (or whatever other example you might prefer).
I suspect that the attempt to come up with some meaningful determination of what a casual game is mechanically will be a waste of time. If it's meant to designate a category of player, as most people do I presume, then anyone who doesn't play games consistently is a casual gamer no matter how 'edgy' or 'hardcore' their tastes are. Someone who only plays Call of Duty or the occasional game of Persona could be considered a casual gamer. Then again, would it be sensible to refer to someone who exclusively plays Gran Turismo 5 or Street Fighter 4, or even Peggle, 10 hours a day a casual? 
It's probably best to avoid using these terms altogether, so I endorse the OP.

#32 Edited by Aetheldod (3513 posts) -
@MordeaniisChaos said:

" The hatred is more towards the company that abandon their roots and go in for nothing but cash. Look at Nintendo, they were never the Gears of War type, but they made games that were for gamers none the less. Now, the Wii only has a handful of games worth playing, after years of development time. "

This is it , I dont hate the people who want to play "easier to get into games" rather that more and more companies are going for the quick cash grab of lame made minigames collections etc. Just look at all the Kinect games , nothing more than simplistic/minigame collection type of games , nothing for a more "niche" type of gamer ( aww come on let just call them as hardcore and casuals and just friggin accept the labels}
#33 Posted by Video_Game_King (36047 posts) -
@owl_of_minerva said:
" Someone who only plays the occasional game of Persona could be considered a casual gamer.  "
Um, no. How many casual gamers (ignore the controversy of the term itself, OK?) have heard of Persona? That'd be like expecting non-dedicated gamers to know what Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is; sure, Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat and Super Smash Bros are easy to get, but Tatsunoko vs. Capcom? Seriously?
#34 Posted by trophyhunter (5800 posts) -
@Video_Game_King said:
" @trophyhunter:   Still, though, the games were marketed to a casual audience. The gameplay was simple, easy to pick up, and the stories were the same. "
Well that's all they could make at the time.
#35 Edited by owl_of_minerva (1455 posts) -
@Video_Game_King:  Although it's an anecdotal example, my girlfriend has beaten Persona 3 and 4. She doesn't know much outside the JRPG genre and spends relatively little time playing games in general. Although it might seem like the definition of a niche series, it has a following amongst fans of Japanese culture such as anime and manga. The average gamer, sure, they're unlikely to hear of it or care.
Anyway, I'm not saying it has to be a widespread phenomenon, it's just an example of how seemingly casual gamers can hit on very specific games or genres and have little interest in the hobby beyond them: they can sometimes be much better informed about developments in gaming than we give them credit for. 
As for Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, I could see that appealing to someone who is into Tatsunoko or has fond memories of Capcom franchises like Street Fighter?
#36 Posted by crusader8463 (14414 posts) -

I liken this whole casual VS hardcore situation to parents bringing home a new child(The Casual Market) and the older child( The "Hardcore" Market) throwing a temper tantrum. All of our lives we have been the only child and mommy and daddy( Developers) have always given us all the attention and what we wanted because we were the only kid in the house. Now the baby has been brought into the house( Casual game market) and now the older child(The "Hardcore" game market) doesn't like baby taking so much of the attention of mommy and daddy. So they lash out and throw temper tantrums in hopes of making mommy and daddy pay attention to them again and give them the things they want.
 
Just like in the above situation time will go on and eventually everyone will learn that mommy and daddy loves both of them and that they are going to give them both an equal amount of attention. It's just that right now baby needs the attention. Then over time the two will develop common interest and the difference will become so negligible that we will all become one big dysfunctional family that can coexist with one another.

#37 Posted by Video_Game_King (36047 posts) -
@owl_of_minerva: 
 
For whatever reason, I always thought you were a girl. Maybe it's the Minerva part of your username. But on subject, I'm assuming that it has something to do with the fact that she's dating a gamer who knows about this type of stuff. I'd ask you if she's obsessive about Fragile Dreams, but given that we're both the two biggest fans of the game, it seems rather pointless.
 
@trophyhunter:
 
How so?
#38 Posted by Aetheldod (3513 posts) -
@crusader8463 said:
" I liken this whole casual VS hardcore situation to parents bringing home a new child(The Casual Market) and the older child( The "Hardcore" Market) throwing a temper tantrum. All of our lives we have been the only child and mommy and daddy( Developers) have always given us all the attention and what we wanted because we were the only kid in the house. Now the baby has been brought into the house( Casual game market) and now the older child(The "Hardcore" game market) doesn't like baby taking so much of the attention of mommy and daddy. So they lash out and throw temper tantrums in hopes of making mommy and daddy pay attention to them again and give them the things they want.   Just like in the above situation time will go on and eventually everyone will learn that mommy and daddy loves both of them and that they are going to give them both an equal amount of attention. It's just that right now baby needs the attention. Then over time the two will develop common interest and the difference will become so negligible that we will all become one big dysfunctional family that can coexist with one another. "
But me want me games NAO :'(
#39 Posted by crusader8463 (14414 posts) -
@Aetheldod:  Eat your veggies first.
#40 Posted by Video_Game_King (36047 posts) -
@crusader8463: 
 
Huh? Since when were hardcore gamers EVER the main focus of the industry? That's a bad business model. Almost every generation has tried to appeal to the casual market. Let's outline this, shall we?
 
  • Atari makes simple games that everybody can play.
  • Nintendo does the same, but much better.
  • Then comes Sega, bringing with them the "hip", "cool" (widely marketable) Sonic the Hedgehog.
  • Sony then brings out the PS1, tapping into the previously untapped teen casual audience.
  • This continues for the next generation with Halo and stuff.
  • Nintendo comes back with motion control, aiming for soccer moms and naked grandmas.
#41 Posted by Pinworm45 (4088 posts) -

No, it's deserved.

#42 Posted by beej (1674 posts) -
@Video_Game_King said:
" @owl_of_minerva: 
 
For whatever reason, I always thought you were a girl. Maybe it's the Minerva part of your username. But on subject, I'm assuming that it has something to do with the fact that she's dating a gamer who knows about this type of stuff. I'd ask you if she's obsessive about Fragile Dreams, but given that we're both the two biggest fans of the game, it seems rather pointless.
 
@trophyhunter:  How so? "
Seems to me like you're missing owl of minerva's point, his argument is that the term casual and hardcore aren't real in the sense that they have no unified meaning. As a slur it can (and is) basically applied against anything people don't like, thus your reaction to his persona statement proves his point. He can call something casual that may not make sense to you, yet fits within his own internal definition of casual (potentially) thus the debate on the issue is kind of messed up since we have no unified definition.
#43 Posted by owl_of_minerva (1455 posts) -
@Video_Game_King:  Well, to use a less controversial example, would you call someone who's mastered Gran Turismo or Street Fighter a casual gamer even though those are highly complex and specialised games? How would you define "casual"?
#44 Edited by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

I don't exactly know what qualifies a game as 'casual', so I have no idea. 

#45 Posted by crusader8463 (14414 posts) -
@Video_Game_King said:

" @crusader8463: 
 
Huh? Since when were hardcore gamers EVER the main focus of the industry? That's a bad business model. Almost every generation has tried to appeal to the casual market. Let's outline this, shall we?
 

  • Atari makes simple games that everybody can play.
  • Nintendo does the same, but much better.
  • Then comes Sega, bringing with them the "hip", "cool" (widely marketable) Sonic the Hedgehog.
  • Sony then brings out the PS1, tapping into the previously untapped teen casual audience.
  • This continues for the next generation with Halo and stuff.
  • Nintendo comes back with motion control, aiming for soccer moms and naked grandmas.
"
The difference is that back then we were that audience, so there was no difference to fight over. As we grew up the industry changed to address our changing interests and expectations about what a game was and what a game could be as we as an audience matured and expected more and more from what our games were. While yes, some companies tried to keep making the kind of games we used to play, to varying degrees of success, the successful ones changed and flourished.
 
Up until the PSX era games where still relatively simple in what they could do with gameplay and story. Then when the PSX came along we started to see things closer in semblance to what we would consider a modern hardcore game, while companies like Nintendo tried to remain the same with their N64. Sony, evolving to meet the demands of the industries maturing audience, managed to out sell Nintendo and claim top spot in the industry because it made games for the majority of the audience while the people who wanted the other stuff stuck with Nintendo. Sony sold 102.49 million Playstation Ones compared to Nintendos 32.9 million N64's.
 
From there Sony kept meeting what the audience wanted with more hardcore games and won the next generation with the PS2, while Nintendo tried to keep appealing to that same dwindling tiny audience and made the gamecube. The PS2 sold 147.6 million and is still counting to this very day, while the gamecube only sold 21.74 million as is dead and forgotten.
 
Until the Wii came out and became the next big fad that drew in such a large contingency of the casual market to finally be able to match that of the hardcore demographic the industry has consisted of appealing to what the hardcore wanted. Now we find ourselves where we are today where we are no long the biggest fish in the seas and we now have competition for these companies attention. For the first time we now have to compete to get the kinds of games we want made with the casual market. Whether or not the casual market dies off over time due to a waning interest in the hobby, thus allowing us to regain our former place of glory atop the totem, is yet to be seen.
#46 Posted by owl_of_minerva (1455 posts) -
@crusader8463:  Although I can see what you're saying, if by "hardcore" you mean challenging and increasingly complex games then that would've predated the PSX: the era of gaming from around the 8-bit to 16-bit era was back when arcades where predominant and those games put a premium on refined and challenging mechanics. If anything, the arcade gamer would be the "hardcore" gamer and the PSX is the beginning of the casualisation of the industry: those hardcore are simply an older generation of "casuals" and the Wii snatched back the "casual" market from Sony. Keep in mind that people were playing stuff like racing games, shooters, sports games, etc. those genres being the lifeblood of the "casual" gaming market. They still are with games like Gran Turismo, Call of Duty, Madden, Halo, etc. selling in droves.  Now the tide has turned and the casuals are being drawn to puzzle, party, and music games, which leads to the amusing situation where one group that occupies the same bracket of the gaming market looks down on the new market that is what they were once.
Note: I'm using punctuation marks to signify that although I'm using the casual/hardcore distinction I still think they should be erased from the collective vocabulary.
#47 Posted by GhostlyEnigma (253 posts) -
@Pinworm45 said:
" No, it's deserved. "
yo! fuck dem casual posers! they dont know teh tru meaning of being hardcore bro! shit, they do nothing but play one or two hourz of gaming! thats pussified shit! hardcore gamerz play counteh-strike 18 hourz a day! i once played morrowind for a hundred hours non-stop, even when my girl waz calling me out on a date! 
 
becuz thatz tru hardcore gaming bro! for realz! hardcore gaming iz da shit! 
#48 Posted by Pinworm45 (4088 posts) -
@GhostlyEnigma said:
" @Pinworm45 said:
" No, it's deserved. "
yo! fuck dem casual posers! they dont know teh tru meaning of being hardcore bro! shit, they do nothing but play one or two hourz of gaming! thats pussified shit! hardcore gamerz play counteh-strike 18 hourz a day! i once played morrowind for a hundred hours non-stop, even when my girl waz calling me out on a date!  becuz thatz tru hardcore gaming bro! for realz! hardcore gaming iz da shit!  "
I certainly did not type like a retard, so I don't particularly understand where your obnoxious, outdated poor spelling insult is attempting to go. 
 
Regardless, my beef with 'casual gamers' as people like to call them (I call them the average person) is the same beef I have with the 'casual movie goer' (or again, average person): they give money to shit like transformers while good stuff comes out in limited droves because it makes no where near as much money. 
 
Who you want to blame for that is up to you, but I don't like it and as such I don't have a particular fondness for whatever name you want to throw on people who "don't play counteh-strike 18 hourz a day"
#49 Posted by clarke0 (1077 posts) -

The only "casual" game I despise is the annual Call of Duty entry. Hate the game and the impact it has had on the industry. That said, I probably wouldn't have such a problem with it if I didn't see and hear about it everywhere I go.

#50 Edited by RandomInternetUser (6789 posts) -

I don't mind casual games, as like you, I can enjoy some from time to time as long as it's fun/good quality.  What I do hate is the storm of terrible casual games on the Wii and the money the people make off those games.  It makes me fear a future where creative new games and games that are just well made are few and far between.  Granted, that's probably not going to happen, but it still makes me fear.
 
Edit:
@Pinworm45 said:

I certainly did not type like a retard, so I don't particularly understand where your obnoxious, outdated poor spelling insult is attempting to go.  Regardless, my beef with 'casual gamers' as people like to call them (I call them the average person) is the same beef I have with the 'casual movie goer' (or again, average person): they give money to shit like transformers while good stuff comes out in limited droves because it makes no where near as much money.  Who you want to blame for that is up to you, but I don't like it and as such I don't have a particular fondness for whatever name you want to throw on people who "don't play counteh-strike 18 hourz a day" "


Pretty much this.