Stealth Games are Niche?

With a new article coming up, which will be Patrick talking about his overwhelming knowledge of the stealth genre after completing Hitman: Blood Money, the name seems to annoy me. Stealth isn't niche, is it? I mean, there's Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid, Hitman and then there's games which allow you to be stealthy in the game, which I'm sure a lot of people enjoy. These aren't small games that only certain people play, they're HUGE. One of which was Giant Bomb's close second for 2008's Game of the Year.

I hope this story isn't something condescending, but I'm sure it will be.

Splinter Cell and Hitman aren't anywhere near as big as they were last generation and from what I've heard MGS4 had a lot more action-y bits than the previous games.

Well it's just a title so we can't really tell what he's going to say but yeah the title is a little strange I find. I've never considered stealth games to be niche. In fact a lot of people I know seems to enjoy that aspect in a lot of games when it comes to various options such as Deus Ex or Skyrim. I think it's because they just like the challenge in it. Also I've yet to meet anyone who hasn't like the Thief series.

I won't say too much since I don't know what exactly the article is about but I'm interested to see what he has to say.

It is niche, at least real stealth games are. You can see the transformation games like Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid and probably the new Hitman made to be more action-centric. You Probably won't see games series like Thief selling gangbusters.

Yeah they are definitively not niche, MGS is still Konami's biggest franchise. I think the genre just needs some innovation. That hasn't happened since MGS3 so I hope Kojima does something new with MGS5

Isn't Assassin's Creed a stealth game? That's huge. So is Metal Gear. I played Skyrim 80% as a stealth game for one of my characters.

Farming simulating games, now they're niche.

I think they are actually.

There is at least a case to be made there.

It doesn't really matter what any of us think. Patrick knows much better than us. This article, as with all of his articles, will revolutionise gaming forever.

There's a difference between stealth games and games with stealth mechanics.

@Scooper said:

Isn't Assassin's Creed a stealth game? That's huge. So is Metal Gear. I played Skyrim 80% as a stealth game for one of my characters.

Farming simulating games, now they're niche.

the first one actually had some stealth stuff. everything after was pretty much just action, with the occasional 'follow this person but don't get spotted' crap.

I think its no surprise that solving bullshit stealth mechanics is harder than lessening the need for stealth in the first place, hence the greater shift toward action. Personally I'll take the lesser of two evils and play a game I actually enjoy instead of butting my head against shitty stealth mechanics. With that said I think there have been some interesting innovations in stealth gameplay such assassins creed and it's crowd blending stuff.

If you simply blanket anything that even remotely has stealth mechanics as stealth games, no they aren't niche.

But games like the Thief/Hitman series that are in their own ballpark of very slow paced methodical, open ended, stealth focused, puzzle/situation solving, that make you think about stuff. Those are somewhat niche yea.

Is this really a thread passing judgement on Patrick and his article that hasn't even been published yet? At least wait until it's put up before calling him a hipster or snob or whatever it is people hate him for surely.

Stealth games that make your supposedly fit and capable character a complete buffoon when it actually comes time to have an out and out fight are niche. And for good reason. In a game where I played a small girl hiding from rapers, I could understand that I was incapable of fighting back with much use. In a game where I'm a highly trained government spook, I expect I can handle a fucking gun. Arkham Asylum made you the predator instead of the prey.

The main thing with something like the new Splinter Cell that I like is the ability to get 'lost' again. Old stealth games, once you were spotted dudes pretty much knew where you were permanently. So if you got spotted you just hit retry last checkpoint. Annoying.

I don't see it as niche, mainly because that's one of my favourite genres and I play a lot of those games but sales wise it is a pretty niche market.

They weren't niche last gen and probably wouldn't be this gen either if publisher didn't start to think that all we want is shooters all the time.

Also i like how the OP presents the subject. It sounds like a signal to rally the Patrick hate brigade before he actually produce an article this time!

I'll save you the trouble of reading it:

"You know, I've been thinking a lot about stealth games since finishing Hitman: Blood Money. Ostensibly, stealth games don't HAVE to be challenging to be fun. The scenarios they put you in are what make it interesting and taking a more action-oriented route may be a good thing. Here's a link to reddit or twitter."

Stealth games do have to be niche. They're inherently niche. Stealth being the main point of the game implies that if you're found out, you're done, which you just can't massage into something mainstream-palatable.

What he should be arguing (and most likely will more or less say) is that stealth elements can be worked into mainstream games. Which covers Assassin's Creed, etc.

Depends whether you mean 'Oh no, I got spotted, now I'm fucked / need to lose them' or 'I got spotted, guess I'll just Rambo everybody now'.
 
The former is pretty niche.  Plenty of games fall into the latter category, but I'd hesitate to call them stealth games.

As niche as anything else that isn't s shooter.

I'm not against Patrick, just the name of the article.

I don't see the problem with stealth games, I just think people who don't enjoy them just don't have any patience. Think before you act isn't a quality you get from the generic FPS genre. I mean in hitman, you can walk about for hours before you do anything to actually start the killing, which is what I did. I went around, scouting places out, watched the targets and then figured out my plan from there. Isn't that the point? Trial and error only comes into it if you just bum-rush into it.

The same is with Conviction. Scout out the area using the sonar, or whatever, target the enemies so you know where they are and the likes. I barely ever got into a big shoot-out in that game, just planning before you do something is what someone like Sam Fisher would be doing, not running in and just shooting people when they see them.

Let's get annoyed about a Patrick article and speculate on the quality of it's content BEFORE IT'S EVEN FUCKING POSTED. Jesus Christ do you guys ever let up? Also pure stealth games are niche (Pre-Conviction Splinter Cell, the Thief series, the original Hitman games)

@believer258: They were optional though. I don't think I'd go as far to call them niche.

Trial and error stealth games, like Splinter Cell and Hitman, are absolutely 'niche'. Even when Splinter Cell was a big game it was pretty niche.

We've only seen the title and you're already sure the article will be condescending? That seems a bit much. I think if we are talking about stealth games and not stealth-action hybrids then yeah, they are a pretty niche genre, that's exactly why series like Splinter Cell have made the move towards more mainstream actiony mechanics, to give themselves a more sizeable audience.

@Gamer_152: I can just see it being condescending, if it's not I will obviously address this. I agree that I guess it's not as pick-up-and-play like other third person games out there, but I just think that the whole think before you shoot mentality is fantastic. Like I said in my earlier post, it's only always going to be trial and error if you don't put much thought into your actions to begin with.

I'll get back to this in 25 minutes, haha.

@Baillie said:

@Gamer_152: I can just see it being condescending, if it's not I will obviously address this. I agree that I guess it's not as pick-up-and-play like other third person games out there, but I just think that the whole think before you shoot mentality is fantastic. Like I said in my earlier post, it's only always going to be trial and error if you don't put much thought into your actions to begin with.

I'll get back to this in 25 minutes, haha.

Do you actually understand what the word niche means? It doesn't mean that it's good or bad it means that it appeals to a small audience. No-one is saying stealth games aren't fun we're saying that fewer people play these sorts of games that other, more popular, genres e.g traditional third or first person shooters.

I honestly don't know what Stealth means anymore. Human Revolution was stealth and that's how most people played it. Assassin's Creed 2 had a LOT of stealth-only missions, Hitman and Thief are stealth games, Skyrim is pretty popular and was very pro-sneaking, the MGS brand is one of the most popular in gaming history... 
 
Is it niche? Some of those titles say yes, others say hell no, so I really don't know anymore. 
 
@Rmack  said: 

I'll save you the trouble of reading it:

"You know, I've been thinking a lot about stealth games since finishing Hitman: Blood Money. Ostensibly, stealth games don't HAVE to be challenging to be fun. The scenarios they put you in are what make it interesting and taking a more action-oriented route may be a good thing. Here's a link to reddit or twitter."

@Ramone: Yeah, I do know the meaning, I just kind of got side-tracked. I still would say it's niche. Batman's stealth is huge in Arkham Asylum/City, Splinter Cell and MGS sell extremely well too. I just don't see where the niche is coming from. Well that's a lie, I do, but just because it's not making billions of dollars like the military first person shooter genre, I really wouldn't call it niche.

I was really hoping this thread wouldn't be condescending but I'm sure it will be.

Metal Gear Solid isn't a stealth game anymore.

@Baillie said:

@Ramone: Yeah, I do know the meaning, I just kind of got side-tracked. I still would say it's niche. Batman's stealth is huge in Arkham Asylum/City, Splinter Cell and MGS sell extremely well too. I just don't see where the niche is coming from. Well that's a lie, I do, but just because it's not making billions of dollars like the military first person shooter genre, I really wouldn't call it niche.

I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt (weird concept!) and assume that you meant "wouldn't say it's niche"?

@Gaff said:

@Baillie said:

@Ramone: Yeah, I do know the meaning, I just kind of got side-tracked. I still would say it's niche. Batman's stealth is huge in Arkham Asylum/City, Splinter Cell and MGS sell extremely well too. I just don't see where the niche is coming from. Well that's a lie, I do, but just because it's not making billions of dollars like the military first person shooter genre, I really wouldn't call it niche.

I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt (weird concept!) and assume that you meant "wouldn't say it's niche"?

Yeah, my mistake.

I'd say it depends on your definition of niche really. I mean some people will say strategy games are niche, yet some of the absolutely most popular videogames out there are strategy games. Just take it with a grain of salt when people call certain genres niche, as there rarely is more meaning behind it other than someone trying to say "this isn't the most popular genre out there".

@believer258 said:

Splinter Cell and Hitman aren't anywhere near as big as they were last generation and from what I've heard MGS4 had a lot more action-y bits than the previous games.

But I still think it's a bit lame to consider the stealth genre niche in the first place considering the amount of games that incorporate some stealth elements whether the whole game is based on stealth or not. Hitman and Splinter Cell are coming back, and how many entries for each title to date? I'm genuinely confused as to how anyone could consider stealth games niche.