Tropes vs Women Kickstarted deadline - missed.

@sodacat said:

@Hailinel: Sarkeesian put a fair amount of research into past videos. I'm thinking of her LEGO one, specifically. That one was apparently good enough that Forbes basically ripped her off entirely for an article on the exact same thing. Dropping the ball on her current video series is unfortunate, but from where I'm standing that's been her only misstep so far.

@TeflonBilly: And for every good thing you can say about Bayonetta, she's still a woman who fights with sex and was modeled after the director's sexual ideal for a woman. That's what they had to do (or more likely just wanted to do) to cast a woman as the lead.

...how do you fight with sex?

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

@JasonR86: By stripping naked every time you summon a demonic hair beast. Also: pole-dancing super moves.

@Binman88: This assumption that Sarkeesian still got most of her money out of pity confounds me. People don't pony up $100k+ out of pity. People want critique like this. They want what she is offering to be part of the discussion. They may not necessarily want it from her, but who else is offering?

@TeflonBilly said:

Tell me what's negative about Bayonetta?

I really need to stay out of these types of threads, but I can't help posting this video:

I can't believe people don't see that she just has a serious complex towards gender differences.

@sodacat said:

@JasonR86: By stripping naked every time you summon a demonic hair beast. Also: pole-dancing super moves.

@Binman88: This assumption that Sarkeesian still got most of her money out of pity confounds me. People don't pony up $100k+ out of pity. People want critique like this. They want what she is offering to be part of the discussion. They may not necessarily want it from her, but who else is offering?

That's like fighting while being sexy. I imagine fighting with sex for women would be like if her vagina had teeth and was like the Darkness or some shit.

I'm no fan of whatshername either and think asking for suggestions for what is supposed to be a personal, introspective analysis of games is pretty lazy, but insinuating this is a scam or in any way like the Ouya? Come on guys. Come on.

@Kidavenger: I just refuted that video by naming several positive traits about her. Also, that woman's "quirky" acting was very annoying.

@sodacat: Sex as a weapon? What is this that Aerosmith game? Oh wait, MUSIC was the weapon there. Her character traits and the story progression of the game would be impossible with a male lead. Sure they could have made her ALOT more modest in the character model, but by hypersexualizing her they really made Bayonetta rise above being a sexual objectified model. I mean, it borderlines on grotesque.

@JasonR86 said:

@sodacat said:

@JasonR86: By stripping naked every time you summon a demonic hair beast. Also: pole-dancing super moves.

@Binman88: This assumption that Sarkeesian still got most of her money out of pity confounds me. People don't pony up $100k+ out of pity. People want critique like this. They want what she is offering to be part of the discussion. They may not necessarily want it from her, but who else is offering?

That's like fighting while being sexy. I imagine fighting with sex for women would be like if her vagina had teeth and was like the Darkness or some shit.

As much as I think most people's complaints about Bayonetta as a character are beyond stupid, let's not act like either the game or the character is anything but exploitation. It wears that exploitation charm on its sleeve.

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

Male video game characters run the gamut of slim to roided out. Females have basically one accepted body shape, and a few accepted boob sizes (large to larger).

Male characters range from charming to blank slates, with the blank slate being fairly common (especially in FPS games). When are female characters allowed to be blank slates outside of games like The Elder Scrolls?

Dom is sexy and/or handsome? OK then.

@sodacat said:

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

Male video game characters run the gamut of slim to roided out. Females have basically one accepted body shape, and a few accepted boob sizes (large to larger).

Male characters range from charming to blank slates, with the blank slate being fairly common (especially in FPS games). When are female characters allowed to be blank slates outside of games like The Elder Scrolls?

Dom is sexy and/or handsome? OK then.

Are you telling me Dom isn't sexy?

Dom is sexy.

edit: Wait...so you WANT female characters to be one dimensional grunts? Huh.

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86 said:

@sodacat said:

@JasonR86: By stripping naked every time you summon a demonic hair beast. Also: pole-dancing super moves.

@Binman88: This assumption that Sarkeesian still got most of her money out of pity confounds me. People don't pony up $100k+ out of pity. People want critique like this. They want what she is offering to be part of the discussion. They may not necessarily want it from her, but who else is offering?

That's like fighting while being sexy. I imagine fighting with sex for women would be like if her vagina had teeth and was like the Darkness or some shit.

As much as I think most people's complaints about Bayonetta as a character are beyond stupid, let's not act like either the game or the character is anything but exploitation. It wears that exploitation charm on its sleeve.

I just think yelling about things like Bayonetta is sort of pointless. The primary problem I have people like Anita is that I get this idea that social norms or exploitative characters needs to be replaced by a new type of social norm of "woman" as is defined by people like Anita. I just don't find that new norm to be any less limiting then the gender norms we see currently.

@rebgav said:

@JasonR86 said:

@sodacat said:

@JasonR86: By stripping naked every time you summon a demonic hair beast. Also: pole-dancing super moves.

@Binman88: This assumption that Sarkeesian still got most of her money out of pity confounds me. People don't pony up $100k+ out of pity. People want critique like this. They want what she is offering to be part of the discussion. They may not necessarily want it from her, but who else is offering?

That's like fighting while being sexy. I imagine fighting with sex for women would be like if her vagina had teeth and was like the Darkness or some shit.

That would be a pretty great game. Now I'm just going to be disappointed by The Darkness 3.

Right!?!?

@rebgav said:

@sodacat said:

@TeflonBilly: And for every good thing you can say about Bayonetta, she's still a woman who fights with sex and was modeled after the director's sexual ideal for a woman. That's what they had to do (or more likely just wanted to do) to cast a woman as the lead.

As we know, sex is a vile and repugnant thing so your point is a valid one; Bayonetta is designed to be sexy ergo "she" is a terrible role model and a blight on society. The director and his game are obviously infidel defilers, promoting the sexist, misogynistic idea that women can be attractive.

Your argument is substantial and thoroughly convincing.

You know we can cut out all this disgusting exploitation in mainstream media without turning turning into puritan moral-fascists. Just keep this shit where it belongs: porn.

@TheHumanDove said:

edit: Wait...so you WANT female characters to be one dimensional grunts? Huh.

I think they deserve the opportunity to be just like everyone else.

I'm probably gonna sound like an asshole saying this, but we're talking about a person who made some videos on youtube. What are people actually expecting from this ? Sure, she's got a lot of money through the kickstarter, but she probably has absolutely no idea how to spend it. She made some videos that probably had a budget of less than a hundred bucks per video, now all of a sudden she's in charge of a large project that needs oversight and direction. Does she even have any experience with something like this at all ?

@mtcantor said:

This whole thing is ridiculous. Over 100k for this? For 12 videos?

Arguably more content than paying Giant Bomb subscribers have had so far this year.

BOOM!

@TheHumanDove said:

edit: Wait...so you WANT female characters to be one dimensional grunts? Huh.

Well, Samus Aran WAS an awesome character until they decided to give her a a personality. There may be a point there.

On the other hand the much maligned and hated Lara Croft who Sarkeesian seems to point out as a harbringer harlot of women's oppression in video games barely had a character in the first Tomb Raider, other than hating animals that is.

I'm getting mixed signals here.

And bearded Dom was ruggedly handsome. He was just another deformed uggo when shaved. the Grief Beard gave him character and a vulnerability. I am still pissed off that Epic didn't do what I'd consider the bravest thing EVER in the industry by having Dom and Marcus declare their love for eachother and AT LEAST share a kiss before he sacrifices himself in Gears 3.

@JasonR86: @rebgav: Oh and for the record in The Darkness comics Jackie has a sister with Darkness powers who at one point pukes out a pool of Darkness that swallows a humvee, and at one point Jackie creates a creepy demonic concubine out of Darkness. There is a precedent for this in the franchise.

Oh, and now that I think about it the very first issue of The Darkness comic was about an angel disguising herself as a human with the intention of blowing up Jackie's dick in her angelic vagina to prevent him from having children and continuing the family lineage. Man, the 90s sure were something.

@JasonR86 said:

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86 said:

@sodacat said:

@JasonR86: By stripping naked every time you summon a demonic hair beast. Also: pole-dancing super moves.

@Binman88: This assumption that Sarkeesian still got most of her money out of pity confounds me. People don't pony up $100k+ out of pity. People want critique like this. They want what she is offering to be part of the discussion. They may not necessarily want it from her, but who else is offering?

That's like fighting while being sexy. I imagine fighting with sex for women would be like if her vagina had teeth and was like the Darkness or some shit.

As much as I think most people's complaints about Bayonetta as a character are beyond stupid, let's not act like either the game or the character is anything but exploitation. It wears that exploitation charm on its sleeve.

I just think yelling about things like Bayonetta is sort of pointless. The primary problem I have people like Anita is that I get this idea that social norms or exploitative characters needs to be replaced by a new type of social norm of "woman" as is defined by people like Anita. I just don't find that new norm to be any less limiting then the gender norms we see currently.

I don't disagree. In fact, that's pretty much my problem with anyone who whines about Bayonetta - yes, it's exploitative as shit. It's big, loud, stupid and shoves its (to steal @TeflonBilly's adjective) grotesque idea of titillation down the player's throat in over-the-top, amped up to eleven gleeful irony, and it isn't trying to insist that it's anything but. It's tantamount to complaining that films like Superfly, Sweet Sweetback's Badassssss Song and Foxxy Brown perpetuate racial stereotypes, or that Troma is nothing but offensive gross-out humor: you're probably an idiot who doesn't understand what they're going for.

Of course, the argument could be made that it's bad because 95% of video game stories and characters go for exploitation over realism and that things like Bayonetta perpetuate that and stifle the creation of stronger characters, both male and female. But of course, no one involved actually seems interested in arguing that.

@TeflonBilly said:

I am still pissed off that Epic didn't do what I'd consider the bravest thing EVER in the industry by having Dom and Marcus declare their love for eachother and AT LEAST share a kiss before he sacrifices himself in Gears 3.

Oh man the backlash and fallout would be so fucking incredible.

@JasonR86 said:

@TeflonBilly said:

I am still pissed off that Epic didn't do what I'd consider the bravest thing EVER in the industry by having Dom and Marcus declare their love for eachother and AT LEAST share a kiss before he sacrifices himself in Gears 3.

Oh man the backlash and fallout would be so fucking incredible.

Real talk: I would have bought Gears of War 3 if that happened.

@sodacat said:

Oh, and now that I think about it the very first issue of The Darkness comic was about an angel disguising herself as a human with the intention of blowing up Jackie's dick in her angelic vagina to prevent him from having children and continuing the family lineage. Man, the 90s sure were something.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Well, this thread has turned into one of the more entertaining parts of my day. Did I mention that I still think this community is pretty great? Because you guys are.

Also: this is probably 4chan and reddit's fault, for giving this woman attention in the first place and allowing the internet white knights of the world to give her over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS to make a few videos about how video games are sexist. I'm not saying that there isn't room for videos or discussion like that, but 100k is far more money than it deserves. Not to mention the part where by asking people to do the work for her she reveals her own incompetence.

@JasonR86 said:

@TeflonBilly said:

I am still pissed off that Epic didn't do what I'd consider the bravest thing EVER in the industry by having Dom and Marcus declare their love for eachother and AT LEAST share a kiss before he sacrifices himself in Gears 3.

Oh man the backlash and fallout would be so fucking incredible.

I'm not just saying it for the hilariously homophobic rage it'd stir up. It would be thematically consistent.

Marcus is a man who has lost everything in the world except Dom and Dom is a broken man after what happened to his wife who's had Marcus as his rock to steady him. Pair that with the homoerotic tension you have to cut through with a chainsaw, a seemingly hopeless look at the extinction of their race and an undeniable chemistry between them, I could sense something in the air.

They're the most co-dependent couple in modern day video game history. All they needed was the writers giving them the slightest of nudges in being simply bi-curious. It would've changed the entire paradigm of homosexuality being portrayed in video games.

Screw finding out that Samus is a woman at the end of Metroid, THAT would've been groundbreaking!

@rebgav said:

I, for one, am against the disgusting exploitation of fictional characters who exist for the purpose of being exploited for financial gain through entertainment. This is a real problem and it needs to be addressed.

I'm for calling Kamiya, Platinum, and the entire industry on their shit. It's going to take a whole lot of people telling video games to stop being embarrassments before there will be any changes, but just pretending they aren't embarrassments won't fix anything.

Bayonetta's sexual visuals weren't shocking because its the same thing everyone does. If Platinum really wanted to be shocking, they would have de-emphasized any sexuality on Bayonetta;s part in favor of the gameplay and story (which, unfortunately, Platinum did say they thought was an important part of the game). How do I know this would have worked? Because Mirror's Edge is basically the only game ever to have done this, and we're still talking about it.

Double Fine's Kickstarter is running way late. Where' the outrage.

Oh that's right, it's not a project designed to make all the fragile male egos out there upset.

I've donated to tons of Kickstarters, many run late.

I don't like the idea that somehow all characters have to be designed to be an "ideal" type of person that everyone should aspire to be. Why would someone look at Bayonetta and say "Oh, this is the ideal version of sexuality that the designer is trying to impose on us, and what he thinks all women should look like." How about, "this is just a character, and was never meant to be representative of the entire female gender."

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

This has been discussed over and over and over and over again. Both examples play into MALE POWER FANTASIES where men are idols/gods and women are rewards/slave/sex objects/nothing. Men in games aren't sex objects for women, they're ideals for men.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck i hate being a gamer and being lumped in with all this horseshit horrible outdated sexist misogynist nonsense

My least favourite part of this whole debate is that once again we seem incapable of discussing this without it turning into one big hostile and over-reactionary argument. I'm already considering shutting down this thread because people seem to be at each others throats. No matter who is right and who is wrong here, I'd much rather have people who were wrong posting than people who were just being jerks.

I'd like to say though that if you disagree with Sarkeesian that's fine, but all the ad hominem attacks and criticisms of her work before it actually exists in the world won't do you any good. If you're sceptical of her work that's a reasonable position to take, but you're going to find much more worth in actually trying to rationally break down and criticise her existing work and her Tropes vs. Women in Video Game series when it comes out, than just throwing around vague statements about Sarkeesian's level of competence. This is not something people seem to be doing. I'm also a little worried about to what extent this is to do with Sarkeesian, and to what extent this is to do with just shaking off the idea that there might be any slight problem with the way video games depict women. Certainly for many this isn't just about rational debate against Sarkeesian, there's a weird kind of deep hatred from a lot of people over what she's trying to do.

Secondly, it seems way off to try and call this or the Ouya a scam. You can express scepticism about the final product but if you want to actually claim the people behind these projects are outright thieves you'll need some damn good evidence to justify that statement, something that I'm just not seeing. This thing being held back is also not necessarily a sign of her incompetence; I don't think any of us could have expected her to get the number of backers she did, and she has a downright crazy job in trying to protect this thing from the sabotagers we know exist. People are also not "doing her work". She's asking fans what they want to see and under other contexts I think that would be seen as a good thing in online media, she's not telling them to play the games, formulate the arguments, and write the episodes, she's just asking for character and game suggestions, I don't see exactly what's so heinous about that.

But whatever. I hoped we could treat this like rational, respectful, pleasant people, but if you can't, don't be surprised if you get moderated over this. I always hate to see portions of the community in this state.

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

This has been discussed over and over and over and over again. Both examples play into MALE POWER FANTASIES where men are idols/gods and women are rewards/slave/sex objects/nothing. Men in games aren't sex objects for women, they're ideals for men.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck i hate being a gamer and being lumped in with all this horseshit horrible outdated sexist misogynist nonsense

Ok, so men have to be badass and we're all killers and fuck everything else. Hmmn...I can see how it is just females that are victims of everything. You've blown me away with your master view. Also calm down, you might blow something.

edit: And can you explain to me how they aren't sex objects for women, but ideals for men? What's the difference? Couldn't you say the same then for female characters being 'ideal'? Please respond

@Gamer_152 said:

My least favourite part of this whole debate is that once again we seem incapable of discussing this without it turning into one big hostile and over-reactionary argument. I'm already considering shutting down this thread because people seem to be at each others throats. No matter who is right and who is wrong here, I'd much rather have people who were wrong posting than people who were just being jerks.

I'd like to say though that if you disagree with Sarkeesian that's fine, but all the ad hominem attacks and criticisms of her work before it actually exists in the world won't do you any good. If you're sceptical of her work that's a reasonable position to take, but you're going to find much more worth in actually trying to rationally break down and criticise her existing work and her Tropes vs. Women in Video Game series when it comes out, than just throwing around vague statements about Sarkeesian's level of competence. This is not something people seem to be doing. I'm also a little worried about to what extent this is to do with Sarkeesian, and to what extent this is to do with just shaking off the idea that there might be any slight problem with the way video games depict women. Certainly for many this isn't just about rational debate against Sarkeesian, there's a weird kind of deep hatred from a lot of people over what she's trying to do.

Secondly, it seems way off to try and call this or the Ouya a scam. You can express scepticism about the final product but if you want to actually claim the people behind these projects are outright thieves you'll need some damn good evidence to justify that statement, something that I'm just not seeing. This thing being held back is also not necessarily a sign of her incompetence; I don't think any of us could have expected her to get the number of backers she did, and she has a downright crazy job in trying to protect this thing from the sabotagers we know exist. People are also not "doing her work". She's asking fans what they want to see and under other contexts I think that would be seen as a good thing in online media, she's not telling them to play the games, formulate the arguments, and write the episodes, she's just asking for character and game suggestions, I don't see exactly what's so heinous about that.

But whatever. I hoped we could treat this like rational, respectful, pleasant people, but if you can't, don't be surprised if you get moderated over this. I always hate to see portions of the community in this state.

@sodacat said:

@rebgav said:

I, for one, am against the disgusting exploitation of fictional characters who exist for the purpose of being exploited for financial gain through entertainment. This is a real problem and it needs to be addressed.

I'm for calling Kamiya, Platinum, and the entire industry on their shit. It's going to take a whole lot of people telling video games to stop being embarrassments before there will be any changes, but just pretending they aren't embarrassments won't fix anything.

Bayonetta's sexual visuals weren't shocking because its the same thing everyone does. If Platinum really wanted to be shocking, they would have de-emphasized any sexuality on Bayonetta;s part in favor of the gameplay and story (which, unfortunately, Platinum did say they thought was an important part of the game). How do I know this would have worked? Because Mirror's Edge is basically the only game ever to have done this, and we're still talking about it.

Why is it Platinum's job, or anyone else's job, to rewrite gender norms in video games? They create products that sell. That is their job. It is up to the consumer to decide what products rise to the top and what products fall. This is another big issue I have with Anita's documentary. Gender roles are set in place in such a way that entertainment, especially entertainment that is still in its relative infancy (i.e. video games), really have a small impact on such set in place social norms. Video games, movies, TV shows or any other form of entertainment can do whatever they want with social norms. They can cater to them. Question them or ignore them. Love or hate them. But the end result is that entertainment mediums can only react to societies at large.

Gender roles are an aspect, a social construct, of a much bigger system. For those roles to change, the bigger system at large needs to change. Think about something as concrete as voting right in the US. The US official formed in 1775. Right about this time voting rights were being argued for women yet women could not vote. Yet it was until the 1920s before women could legally vote in the US. It took nearly 150 years for women to get that right. Gender norms is a much, much bigger issue then that one, measly right. So does anyone actually think that calling entertainment mediums out for catering to social norms or praising them for opposing those norms will amount to anything?

@TheHumanDove said:

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

This has been discussed over and over and over and over again. Both examples play into MALE POWER FANTASIES where men are idols/gods and women are rewards/slave/sex objects/nothing. Men in games aren't sex objects for women, they're ideals for men.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck i hate being a gamer and being lumped in with all this horseshit horrible outdated sexist misogynist nonsense

Ok, so men have to be badass and we're all killers and fuck everything else. Hmmn...I can see how it is just females that are victims of everything. You've blown me away with your master view. Also calm down, you might blow something.

From http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/01/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2/all/1/

BUT MEN ARE ALL SUPER-BUFF, THEY’RE SEXUALLY OBJECTIFIED TOO! / MEN WANT TO WATCH DESIRABLE WOMEN, WOMEN WANT TO BE DESIRABLE WOMEN
This is one of the most common deflections when the issue of how women are portrayed comes up. It’s known as a false equivalence – the idea that two things presented together as equal when in fact they aren’t. In this case, the idea that just because women have exaggerated physiques doesn’t mean they’re sexist because the men are just as exaggerated too. Of course, this doesn’t work for many reasons. To start with, it assumes – falsely – that the things that women find sexy are the same things that guys find sexy; that is, the exaggerated secondary sex characteristics. But we’ll get to that in a second.
The other issue is the reason for the exaggeration. Comics and games are fantasy true, but the fantasy aspect differs when it comes to male and female characters. Male characters are a power fantasy; the large muscles and massive torsos are visual signs that this character is an unstoppable powerhouse. Kratos doesn’t look the way he does because Sony Computer Entertainment did focus-market studies and found that women reacted best to that design; he looks the way he does because he represents the powerful alpha-male that gamers want to be.
The women, on the other hand, are sexual fantasies. These are the rewards for the player – the character’s love-interest, the motivation to complete the game. They’re designed as eye-candy; they’re intended as something to be consumed, not something to escape into. Women like to fantasize about being desirable yes, but they also like to be powerful, and their definition of what they would consider to be sexy and powerful doesn’t mean battle-bikinis and thongs of power.
But hey, I’m a guy. It’s easy for me to sit here and proclaim what women find sexy, but I could be talking out of my ass. So why not take it to the source? I put out a completely unscientific poll on Facebook andTwitter about characters that women find sexy – video games, comics, anime, whatever. And the results? Well, let’s compare.
Here we have the exaggerated figures that are supposedly sexy too:

Yeah baby, glower! Make sulky love to that camera!
And here are the characters my female readers find sexy:

Not shown here: Sephiroth, Goliath, The 10th Doctor, Roy Mustang and one vote for Optimus Prime (?!?)
Notice a trend here? These are not the massive beefcakes alpha-males that are supposedly as equally objectified as Kasumi, Ayane or Ivy. These men have longer torsos with much leaner builds; they’re built like swimmers rather than weight-lifters. They’re not men who scream “unstoppable physical power”. They’re lithe and dextrous, not barrel-chested juggernauts with treestumps for limbs.
And the other critical factor: it’s not just their builds that make them sexy. Gambit, for example is attractive because of his personality and his situation; he’s tortured because he can’t physically touch the woman he loves. Nightcrawler is the laughing swashbuckler, full of wit and flirty charm. Jareth is dark and mysterious and just a little dangerous and oozes sexuality.
Yes, the men are exaggerated as much as the women. But it’s the intent and the message that make all of the difference.

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

This has been discussed over and over and over and over again. Both examples play into MALE POWER FANTASIES where men are idols/gods and women are rewards/slave/sex objects/nothing. Men in games aren't sex objects for women, they're ideals for men.

Isn't this exactly what we should expect though, given the demographic of the "hardcore" gaming audience? I honestly have no idea what a female power fantasy would even look like, but even if there was a game that followed that, do you think that bill of goods could be sold to a male dominated audience? There is a business aspect to this as well.

@Terramagi said:

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

Is everyone else who fell behind a Kickstarter deadline a scam artist or incompetent? Or just the ones who make you think about things that make you confront your hatred towards women?

@sodacat: I'm probably gonna regret saying this, but are you really trying to argue that our desensitivity to sexual visuals mainly comes from videogames and not other stuff like music videos, tv shows, magazines and movies ? This isn't in any way something specific to videogames. The over-sexualisation of all entertainment has been going on for like two decades at this point.

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

Is everyone else who fell behind a Kickstarter deadline a scam artist or incompetent? Or just the ones who make you think about things that make you confront your hatred towards women?

Point proven.

It's a fucking Youtube video, and you're being paid HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I'm not asking you to cure cancer, I'm telling you to sit in front of a fucking camera and do some rudimentary research and video editing.

@Terramagi said:

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

Is everyone else who fell behind a Kickstarter deadline a scam artist or incompetent? Or just the ones who make you think about things that make you confront your hatred towards women?

Point proven.

It's a fucking Youtube video, and you're being paid HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I'm not asking you to cure cancer, I'm telling you to sit in front of a fucking camera and do some rudimentary research and video editing.

Way to avoid everything I said there, bucko.

And she's doing more than that. But whatever, oversimplify and distort facts. Misogynists are really good at that.

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

Is everyone else who fell behind a Kickstarter deadline a scam artist or incompetent? Or just the ones who make you think about things that make you confront your hatred towards women?

Point proven.

It's a fucking Youtube video, and you're being paid HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I'm not asking you to cure cancer, I'm telling you to sit in front of a fucking camera and do some rudimentary research and video editing.

Way to avoid everything I said there, bucko.

And she's doing more than that. But whatever, oversimplify and distort facts. Misogynists are really good at that.

You really shouldn't throw around words like 'misogynists'. Not only does its overuse deflate the word's meaning it is also a really terrible thing to call someone.

Wait, I don't get it? She isn't looking for suggestions on what to do videos about, she's looking for suggestions on games fitting on the tropes she'll do in her next video in case she's missed any?

Pretty much every Kickstarter project misses their original estimated deadline, a bit too early to call this a scam.

@depecheload: I like how being critical of Sarkeesian means we automatically hate women. How about I hate people who are narrow minded, untalented, manipulative, misinformed, disinformative and just plain liars?

To be honest, the reason I want another Mirror's Edge game is because I really liked the visual style of the environments, and because they had that awesome theme song over all the trailers that's still stuck in my head.

As far as Bayonetta is concerned, I'm going to use the same term I seem to remember Ryan using in his review back in the day- she's intimidating.  She's arguably one of the most powerful female characters in gaming, and I don't even mean that in reference to her actual powers:  she exudes confidence and control in a way that damn near no one else does, and the sheer force of will behind the character is almost oppressive at times, even through the barrier of the screen.

It wasn't more than a few hours into the game- somewhere around the first boss fight, probably, where you realize that her boldness and shit-talking extends from her friends and allies all the way up to twin-headed vaguely dragon-ish abominations- and I realized just how utterly wrong I had been in my assessment of the character as titillating eye-candy.  She's impressive, unflinching in the face of nearly everything imaginable, and years after I've forgotten half the characters in all the games I've played, I remember her vividly- not because she was hot, or because there were brief flashes of (gasp!) bare leg, but because she's a forceful, uncompromising character, the kind that almost never seems genuine, but she does everything with such strength and style that you can't help but be drawn in.

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

This has been discussed over and over and over and over again. Both examples play into MALE POWER FANTASIES where men are idols/gods and women are rewards/slave/sex objects/nothing. Men in games aren't sex objects for women, they're ideals for men.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck i hate being a gamer and being lumped in with all this horseshit horrible outdated sexist misogynist nonsense

Ok, so men have to be badass and we're all killers and fuck everything else. Hmmn...I can see how it is just females that are victims of everything. You've blown me away with your master view. Also calm down, you might blow something.

From http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/01/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2/all/1/

BUT MEN ARE ALL SUPER-BUFF, THEY’RE SEXUALLY OBJECTIFIED TOO! / MEN WANT TO WATCH DESIRABLE WOMEN, WOMEN WANT TO BE DESIRABLE WOMEN
This is one of the most common deflections when the issue of how women are portrayed comes up. It’s known as a false equivalence – the idea that two things presented together as equal when in fact they aren’t. In this case, the idea that just because women have exaggerated physiques doesn’t mean they’re sexist because the men are just as exaggerated too. Of course, this doesn’t work for many reasons. To start with, it assumes – falsely – that the things that women find sexy are the same things that guys find sexy; that is, the exaggerated secondary sex characteristics. But we’ll get to that in a second.
The other issue is the reason for the exaggeration. Comics and games are fantasy true, but the fantasy aspect differs when it comes to male and female characters. Male characters are a power fantasy; the large muscles and massive torsos are visual signs that this character is an unstoppable powerhouse. Kratos doesn’t look the way he does because Sony Computer Entertainment did focus-market studies and found that women reacted best to that design; he looks the way he does because he represents the powerful alpha-male that gamers want to be.
The women, on the other hand, are sexual fantasies. These are the rewards for the player – the character’s love-interest, the motivation to complete the game. They’re designed as eye-candy; they’re intended as something to be consumed, not something to escape into. Women like to fantasize about being desirable yes, but they also like to be powerful, and their definition of what they would consider to be sexy and powerful doesn’t mean battle-bikinis and thongs of power.
But hey, I’m a guy. It’s easy for me to sit here and proclaim what women find sexy, but I could be talking out of my ass. So why not take it to the source? I put out a completely unscientific poll on Facebook andTwitter about characters that women find sexy – video games, comics, anime, whatever. And the results? Well, let’s compare.
Here we have the exaggerated figures that are supposedly sexy too:

Yeah baby, glower! Make sulky love to that camera!
And here are the characters my female readers find sexy:

Not shown here: Sephiroth, Goliath, The 10th Doctor, Roy Mustang and one vote for Optimus Prime (?!?)
Notice a trend here? These are not the massive beefcakes alpha-males that are supposedly as equally objectified as Kasumi, Ayane or Ivy. These men have longer torsos with much leaner builds; they’re built like swimmers rather than weight-lifters. They’re not men who scream “unstoppable physical power”. They’re lithe and dextrous, not barrel-chested juggernauts with treestumps for limbs.
And the other critical factor: it’s not just their builds that make them sexy. Gambit, for example is attractive because of his personality and his situation; he’s tortured because he can’t physically touch the woman he loves. Nightcrawler is the laughing swashbuckler, full of wit and flirty charm. Jareth is dark and mysterious and just a little dangerous and oozes sexuality.
Yes, the men are exaggerated as much as the women. But it’s the intent and the message that make all of the difference.

A wonderful case of saying a lot while saying almost nothing. Shall I go find a link instead of using my own words as well? I always find it funny how sexism is so blatantly one sided. The first argument is 'lol no you don't know if those muscular badass dudes are sexy to girls!'. Okay. May I retort and say that big boobs/ass don't do a lot for me? Uh oh. Seems that threw things upside down already. Also...power fantasy. So what's that? Where someone is clearly a superior specimen to us, but we're cool with it because 'man, how cool would it be to be that guy?' But there's no ill will? So the only PIECES in the plot that are designed to be the way they are, are females apparently. Not the rugged macho guy that can pick up all the girls and beat up all the bad guys. Girls don't like good looking guys apparently in the real world. The comparison pictures are hilarious. I see 2/3 with 16 packs for stomachs, but I guess we're supposed to ignore that part. Fast forward to my quick conclusion because I hate responding to an article rather than an individual...

Who is to say what the intent is? And what it means to each individual? Think objectively about men and women as a whole, rather than demonizing. Also...of course they picked David Bowie. It's David Fucking Bowie. The end

@JasonR86 said:

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

Is everyone else who fell behind a Kickstarter deadline a scam artist or incompetent? Or just the ones who make you think about things that make you confront your hatred towards women?

Point proven.

It's a fucking Youtube video, and you're being paid HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I'm not asking you to cure cancer, I'm telling you to sit in front of a fucking camera and do some rudimentary research and video editing.

Way to avoid everything I said there, bucko.

And she's doing more than that. But whatever, oversimplify and distort facts. Misogynists are really good at that.

You really shouldn't throw around words like 'misogynists'. Not only does its overuse deflate the word's meaning it is also a really terrible thing to call someone.

Singling out a woman for making the same mistake that countless men have done: Misogyny.

I really don't care if I hurt their feelings. They don't care about women.

Turning notifications off again. Sigh. I give up once more.

@depecheload said:

Double Fine's Kickstarter is running way late. Where' the outrage.

Oh that's right, it's not a project designed to make all the fragile male egos out there upset.

I've donated to tons of Kickstarters, many run late.

This is a totally baseless comparison. Double fine has been putting out TONS of updates along the way, filling in their backers with art, programming, design, story updates and more on a regular basis. The rewards for the backers have also been taken care of. There is no doubt on how they are spending the money, and all the backers are following along step by step to see their investment being put together.

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

@depecheload said:

@Terramagi said:

She gets hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of appealing to the fucktards on Reddit, wants people to do her "research" (which basically amounts to perusing TVtropes "articles") for her, and can't hold to a simple deadline.

I'd say she's either completely incompetent or a straight up scam artist. I say "I'd say" because if I ACTUALLY said it I'd get lynched by white knights.

Is everyone else who fell behind a Kickstarter deadline a scam artist or incompetent? Or just the ones who make you think about things that make you confront your hatred towards women?

Point proven.

It's a fucking Youtube video, and you're being paid HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I'm not asking you to cure cancer, I'm telling you to sit in front of a fucking camera and do some rudimentary research and video editing.

Way to avoid everything I said there, bucko.

And she's doing more than that. But whatever, oversimplify and distort facts. Misogynists are really good at that.

Oh wow, buzzwords. How quaint.

You must be new at this whole "ironic trolling" thing. At least, I hope so, because I wasn't this bad at it when I was 12.

@TheHumanDove said:

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

@depecheload said:

@TheHumanDove said:

95% if male protagonists are sexy/handsome/muscular/charming- WHATEVER

95% of female protagonists are sexy/beautiful/slim- GRAB YER TORCH AND PITCH FORKS!

This has been discussed over and over and over and over again. Both examples play into MALE POWER FANTASIES where men are idols/gods and women are rewards/slave/sex objects/nothing. Men in games aren't sex objects for women, they're ideals for men.

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck i hate being a gamer and being lumped in with all this horseshit horrible outdated sexist misogynist nonsense

Ok, so men have to be badass and we're all killers and fuck everything else. Hmmn...I can see how it is just females that are victims of everything. You've blown me away with your master view. Also calm down, you might blow something.

From http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/01/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2/all/1/

BUT MEN ARE ALL SUPER-BUFF, THEY’RE SEXUALLY OBJECTIFIED TOO! / MEN WANT TO WATCH DESIRABLE WOMEN, WOMEN WANT TO BE DESIRABLE WOMEN
This is one of the most common deflections when the issue of how women are portrayed comes up. It’s known as a false equivalence – the idea that two things presented together as equal when in fact they aren’t. In this case, the idea that just because women have exaggerated physiques doesn’t mean they’re sexist because the men are just as exaggerated too. Of course, this doesn’t work for many reasons. To start with, it assumes – falsely – that the things that women find sexy are the same things that guys find sexy; that is, the exaggerated secondary sex characteristics. But we’ll get to that in a second.
The other issue is the reason for the exaggeration. Comics and games are fantasy true, but the fantasy aspect differs when it comes to male and female characters. Male characters are a power fantasy; the large muscles and massive torsos are visual signs that this character is an unstoppable powerhouse. Kratos doesn’t look the way he does because Sony Computer Entertainment did focus-market studies and found that women reacted best to that design; he looks the way he does because he represents the powerful alpha-male that gamers want to be.
The women, on the other hand, are sexual fantasies. These are the rewards for the player – the character’s love-interest, the motivation to complete the game. They’re designed as eye-candy; they’re intended as something to be consumed, not something to escape into. Women like to fantasize about being desirable yes, but they also like to be powerful, and their definition of what they would consider to be sexy and powerful doesn’t mean battle-bikinis and thongs of power.
But hey, I’m a guy. It’s easy for me to sit here and proclaim what women find sexy, but I could be talking out of my ass. So why not take it to the source? I put out a completely unscientific poll on Facebook andTwitter about characters that women find sexy – video games, comics, anime, whatever. And the results? Well, let’s compare.
Here we have the exaggerated figures that are supposedly sexy too:

Yeah baby, glower! Make sulky love to that camera!
And here are the characters my female readers find sexy:

Not shown here: Sephiroth, Goliath, The 10th Doctor, Roy Mustang and one vote for Optimus Prime (?!?)
Notice a trend here? These are not the massive beefcakes alpha-males that are supposedly as equally objectified as Kasumi, Ayane or Ivy. These men have longer torsos with much leaner builds; they’re built like swimmers rather than weight-lifters. They’re not men who scream “unstoppable physical power”. They’re lithe and dextrous, not barrel-chested juggernauts with treestumps for limbs.
And the other critical factor: it’s not just their builds that make them sexy. Gambit, for example is attractive because of his personality and his situation; he’s tortured because he can’t physically touch the woman he loves. Nightcrawler is the laughing swashbuckler, full of wit and flirty charm. Jareth is dark and mysterious and just a little dangerous and oozes sexuality.
Yes, the men are exaggerated as much as the women. But it’s the intent and the message that make all of the difference.

A wonderful case of saying a lot while saying almost nothing. Shall I go find a link instead of using my own words as well? I always find it funny how sexism is so blatantly one sided. The first argument is 'lol no you don't know if those muscular badass dudes are sexy to girls!'. Okay. May I retort and say that big boobs/ass don't do a lot for me? Uh oh. Seems that threw things upside down already. Also...power fantasy. So what's that? Where someone is clearly a superior specimen to us, but we're cool with it because 'man, how cool would it be to be that guy?' But there's no ill will? So the only PIECES in the plot that are designed to be the way they are, are females apparently. Not the rugged macho guy that can pick up all the girls and beat up all the bad guys. Girls don't like good looking guys apparently in the real world. The comparison pictures are hilarious. I see 2/3 with 16 packs for stomachs, but I guess we're supposed to ignore that part. Fast forward to my quick conclusion because I hate responding to an article rather than an individual...

Who is to say what the intent is? And what it means to each individual? Think objectively about men and women as a whole, rather than demonizing. Also...of course they picked David Bowie. It's David Fucking Bowie. The end

It really doesn't matter if they don't do anything "for you" its the intent. But whatever. I showed you a very detailed argument as to why you were wrong. But god forbid something make you think. I give up.

That's what I get for trying to talk to sexists on the Internet again.

Right. I'm sexist because I disagree with your opinion. I'm clearly the close-minded one. Happy trolling in the future, my friend!

@bushpusherr: Except Anita has been posting updates about expanding the project, buying games, hiring on researchers, buying new recording equipment.

The project expanded, so she took more time ramping up. How fucking long have we waited for Vinny and Drew to get their production stuff together after the CBSi buyout?