So after visiting France I came back to the states as a huge supporter of Capitalism. I couldn't stand going into the Eiffel Tower and spending 20 euros ($26) and on top of that paying 20% sales tax while some unemployed guy got in free of charge. Socialism encourages people to sit on their ass and not work. Why work when other people will and will be forced to pay for your life style? It is an unfair system, capitalism is much better.
So after visiting France I came back to the states as a huge supporter of Capitalism. I couldn't stand going into the Eiffel Tower and spending 20 euros ($26) and on top of that paying 20% sales tax while some unemployed guy got in free of charge. Socialism encourages people to sit on their ass and not work. Why work when other people will and will be forced to pay for your life style? It is an unfair system, capitalism is much better.
Capitalism encourages exploitation, and permits just as much laziness. People get jobs and then goof off all day surfing the net. CEOs exploit workers, the government, and shareholders to become rich, and get paid to quit their jobs. You could work hard every day of your life in the US and still never get anywhere. Only if you're cunning and willing to step on other people's backs can you get ahead in a capitalist society.
Capitalism also encourages 'progress' at all costs. No one questions if a job should be done, it HAS to be done to make money, even if it means hurting society, humanity and the planet.
edit - playing a bit of devil's advocate btw. I don't think socialism is necessarily better or worse.
"So after visiting France I came back to the states as a huge supporter of Capitalism. I couldn't stand going into the Eiffel Tower and spending 20 euros ($26) and on top of that paying 20% sales tax while some unemployed guy got in free of charge. Socialism encourages people to sit on their ass and not work. Why work when other people will and will be forced to pay for your life style? It is an unfair system, capitalism is much better."
Ehhh.... ehhhhhh....... aaahhh...... so why did a unemployed guy get in for free?
"Capitalism encourages exploitation, and permits just as much laziness. People get jobs and then goof off all day surfing the net. CEOs exploit workers, the government, and shareholders to become rich, and get paid to quit their jobs. You could work hard every day of your life in the US and still never get anywhere. Only if you're cunning and willing to step on other people's backs can you get ahead in a capitalist society.Capitalism also encourages 'progress' at all costs. No one questions if a job should be done, it HAS to be done to make money, even if it means hurting society, humanity and the planet."
Personal benefits come before other people's benefits in my book. It's how big, rich companies become big and rich.
"Capitalism encourages exploitation, and permits just as much laziness. People get jobs and then goof off all day surfing the net. CEOs exploit workers, the government, and shareholders to become rich, and get paid to quit their jobs. You could work hard every day of your life in the US and still never get anywhere. Only if you're cunning and willing to step on other people's backs can you get ahead in a capitalist society.Capitalism also encourages 'progress' at all costs. No one questions if a job should be done, it HAS to be done to make money, even if it means hurting society, humanity and the planet."
One of the most intelligent statements about Capitalism I've seen ... however just to warn people (because I'm sure someone will say it) Socialism doesn't = Tyranny. I'm a democratic socialist myself.
"Capitalism encourages exploitation, and permits just as much laziness. People get jobs and then goof off all day surfing the net. CEOs exploit workers, the government, and shareholders to become rich, and get paid to quit their jobs. You could work hard every day of your life in the US and still never get anywhere. Only if you're cunning and willing to step on other people's backs can you get ahead in a capitalist society.Capitalism also encourages 'progress' at all costs. No one questions if a job should be done, it HAS to be done to make money, even if it means hurting society, humanity and the planet."
Socialist countries still have an economy to worry about. At the end of the day they just take the hard earned money from the rich so that the middle class and the poor can work less. It sound great but what is the incentive to work if the government is going to take a good portion of everything you earn?
"So after visiting France I came back to the states as a huge supporter of Capitalism. I couldn't stand going into the Eiffel Tower and spending 20 euros ($26) and on top of that paying 20% sales tax while some unemployed guy got in free of charge. Socialism encourages people to sit on their ass and not work. Why work when other people will and will be forced to pay for your life style? It is an unfair system, capitalism is much better."
Ehhh.... ehhhhhh....... aaahhh...... so why did a unemployed guy get in for free? "
Because Socialist countries go and take tax money and give unemployed people lots of benefits with it.
French people have a big sense of national identity. For example, France heavily subsidises it's car industry. Most French people (^90%) drive French cars.
"Dude, I got Battlefield Bad Company in the mail from GameFly and I can't wait to play it. Is it any good?"
No. The characters' coveting of gold offends my socialist sensibilities. Yet another example of the war-mongering of capitalism and its justification of exploiting or devastating other people for your own financial benefit. It's disgusting.
Bad timing considering half of the US private sector is now propped up by the taxpayer. We're all Socialist countries now, better get used to it I guess *sigh*.
Your rant about state handouts is totally correct.
"Capitalism encourages exploitation, and permits just as much laziness. People get jobs and then goof off all day surfing the net. CEOs exploit workers, the government, and shareholders to become rich, and get paid to quit their jobs. You could work hard every day of your life in the US and still never get anywhere. Only if you're cunning and willing to step on other people's backs can you get ahead in a capitalist society.Capitalism also encourages 'progress' at all costs. No one questions if a job should be done, it HAS to be done to make money, even if it means hurting society, humanity and the planet."
Personal benefits come before other people's benefits in my book. It's how big, rich companies become big and rich."
"So after visiting France I came back to the states as a huge supporter of Capitalism. I couldn't stand going into the Eiffel Tower and spending 20 euros ($26) and on top of that paying 20% sales tax while some unemployed guy got in free of charge. Socialism encourages people to sit on their ass and not work. Why work when other people will and will be forced to pay for your life style? It is an unfair system, capitalism is much better."
Explain to me what you know about capitalism because it sounds like you're missing something.
"I really want to hear how someone got to use the elevator up to the top of the Eiffel tower without paying. "
That is not the point of this topic what so ever. The point is to start up a political discussion about the different types of government."
Guess you will have to learn how the unemployment system and social aid works in France first before you can do that. "
I understand how the unemployment system and social aid works in France. The french really over do it. I think it is a over kill for the government to pay someone to come over and do the dishes if your sick. Also, it isn't a good idea to have free day care for children. It takes away from privately owned businesses.
"I really want to hear how someone got to use the elevator up to the top of the Eiffel tower without paying. "
That is not the point of this topic what so ever. The point is to start up a political discussion about the different types of government."
Guess you will have to learn how the unemployment system and social aid works in France first before you can do that. "
I understand how the unemployment system and social aid works in France. The french really over do it. I think it is a over kill for the government to pay someone to come over and do the dishes if your sick. Also, it isn't a good idea to have free day care for children. It takes away from privately owned businesses."
But the person who does the washing will be payed by someone, most likely the government in an effort to get people back to work. Similarly, the free day care person will be government funded but that in itself allows the parents to work knowing that their children are safe unlike over here where you have to constantly arrange fees etc with nurseries.
"Bad timing considering half of the US private sector is now propped up by the taxpayer. We're all Socialist countries now, better get used to it I guess *sigh*.Your rant about state handouts is totally correct."
We're nowhere near socialist, but we've never been pure capitalism either. I think it's probably for the best that we don't go in either extreme.
Socialism is a strange one. While I do agree, if someone works harder they should be entitled to more money, the problem occurs when they have children. A new born baby, into a multi-millionaire family has no right to a better life than a child born into a family in poverty. They are born into those situations purely by chance, and one baby has no right to a better life than another. But how do you make the children equal without making the families more equal? That is the problem.
The unemployment system is actually there to motivate people to get jobs. It allows people to maintain themselves (no one will ever hire a bum) presentable and actually forces people to go and send a set number of resumées a month.
"I really want to hear how someone got to use the elevator up to the top of the Eiffel tower without paying. "
That is not the point of this topic what so ever. The point is to start up a political discussion about the different types of government."
Guess you will have to learn how the unemployment system and social aid works in France first before you can do that. "
I understand how the unemployment system and social aid works in France. The french really over do it. I think it is a over kill for the government to pay someone to come over and do the dishes if your sick. Also, it isn't a good idea to have free day care for children. It takes away from privately owned businesses."
But the person who does the washing will be payed by someone, most likely the government in an effort to get people back to work. Similarly, the free day care person will be government funded but that in itself allows the parents to work knowing that their children are safe unlike over here where you have to constantly arrange fees etc with nurseries."
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person.
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person."
Simply because people want high quality services, the government funded institutes provide a base level of service. Also as i said in my previous comment that tax money is partly used to make people wealthier thus consume more services.
"I really want to hear how someone got to use the elevator up to the top of the Eiffel tower without paying. "
That is not the point of this topic what so ever. The point is to start up a political discussion about the different types of government."
Guess you will have to learn how the unemployment system and social aid works in France first before you can do that. "
I understand how the unemployment system and social aid works in France. The french really over do it. I think it is a over kill for the government to pay someone to come over and do the dishes if your sick. Also, it isn't a good idea to have free day care for children. It takes away from privately owned businesses."
But the person who does the washing will be payed by someone, most likely the government in an effort to get people back to work. Similarly, the free day care person will be government funded but that in itself allows the parents to work knowing that their children are safe unlike over here where you have to constantly arrange fees etc with nurseries."
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person."
I can imagine the healthcare system is similar to the UK where we have the NHS and then the private sector. There's always the option but there's at least something there for the citizens who can't afford the private care.
I think you're forgetting just how many jobs are created by having these social programs; jobs that lighten the negative side of having a market economy. No, the big and rich do not get as big and rich, but that means what is considered rich there is more of, creating more competition within that market economy leading to higher quality goods with just as many jobs.
Lots of times people start careers not to make a lot of money but because that's what they want to do. Also the U.S. has been using a blend of capitalism and socialism for years. Medicaid and medicare are both socialist programs and I'd like to see someone ever give those up because they are.
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person."
Simply because people want high quality services, the government funded institutes provide a base level of service. Also as i said in my previous comment that tax money is partly used to make people wealthier thus consume more services. "
Yeah because we spend so little here in terms of actual costs for our awesome insurance with co-pays and shit. Considering my sister just had a kid and it cost them $12,000 and they still had the best plan that they could get at work.
We spend like money like a motherfucker and still pay out the nose when something major like a heart attack of cancer hits. Not to mention people who lose their houses. Yeah, CAPITALISTIC HEALTHCARE ROCKS!!
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person."
Simply because people want high quality services, the government funded institutes provide a base level of service. Also as i said in my previous comment that tax money is partly used to make people wealthier thus consume more services. "
Yeah because we spend so little here in terms of actual costs for our awesome insurance with co-pays and shit. Considering my sister just had a kid and it cost them $12,000 and they still had the best plan that they could get at work.
We spend like money like a motherfucker and still pay out the nose when something major like a heart attack of cancer hits. Not to mention people who lose their houses. Yeah, CAPITALISTIC HEALTHCARE ROCKS!!
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person."
Simply because people want high quality services, the government funded institutes provide a base level of service. Also as i said in my previous comment that tax money is partly used to make people wealthier thus consume more services. "
Yeah because we spend so little here in terms of actual costs for our awesome insurance with co-pays and shit. Considering my sister just had a kid and it cost them $12,000 and they still had the best plan that they could get at work.
We spend like money like a motherfucker and still pay out the nose when something major like a heart attack of cancer hits. Not to mention people who lose their houses. Yeah, CAPITALISTIC HEALTHCARE ROCKS!!
We're nowhere near socialist, but we've never been pure capitalism either. I think it's probably for the best that we don't go in either extreme."
You're getting closer by the day. The whole point in Capitalism is that risk is rewarded, but you must also be able to fail or there is no risk - (ie. they wouldn't be allowed to fail under any circumstances). As soon as you start bailing out private companies with taxpayers money, you are admitting that those private companies were being rewarded for something which, in reality, had no risk. We in the UK are equally guilty.
Capitalism would let these companies go under and be replaced by ones with a working business model. Socialism would prop them up with taxpayers money. Propping up General Motors (for example) so they can keep employing people to produce something that nobody wants is Welfare State / Unemployment Benefit in all but name. Your President ran for election on 'Yes We Can', which is about as socialist as a slogan can get.
"Capitalism encourages exploitation, and permits just as much laziness. People get jobs and then goof off all day surfing the net. CEOs exploit workers, the government, and shareholders to become rich, and get paid to quit their jobs. You could work hard every day of your life in the US and still never get anywhere. Only if you're cunning and willing to step on other people's backs can you get ahead in a capitalist society.Capitalism also encourages 'progress' at all costs. No one questions if a job should be done, it HAS to be done to make money, even if it means hurting society, humanity and the planet."
One of the most intelligent statements about Capitalism I've seen ... however just to warn people (because I'm sure someone will say it) Socialism doesn't = Tyranny. I'm a democratic socialist myself. "
I believe that socialism does lead to tyranny, as it restricts the individual's liberties. Milton Friedman explained it best:
Milton Friedman said:
"In the circumstances envisaged in the socialist society, the man who wants to print the paper to promote capitalism has to persuade a government mill to sell him the paper, a government printing press to print it, a government post office to distribute it among the people, a government agency to rent him a hall in which to talk and so on. Maybe there is some way in which one could make arrangements under a socialist society to preserve freedom and to make this possible. I certainly cannot say that it is utterly impossible. What is clear is that there are very real difficulties in preserving dissent and that, so far as I know, none of the people who have been in favor of socialism and also in favor of freedom have really faced up to this issue or made even a respectable start at developing the institutional arrangements that would permit freedom under socialism."
Yeah but this system takes away the ability to open many types of businesses. Why become a dentist when you can't open your own office. Why become a doctor if you can't start you own practice. Why open any sort of business and get taxed like crazy and make hardly any more money than the average person."
Simply because people want high quality services, the government funded institutes provide a base level of service. Also as i said in my previous comment that tax money is partly used to make people wealthier thus consume more services. "
Yeah because we spend so little here in terms of actual costs for our awesome insurance with co-pays and shit. Considering my sister just had a kid and it cost them $12,000 and they still had the best plan that they could get at work.
We spend like money like a motherfucker and still pay out the nose when something major like a heart attack of cancer hits. Not to mention people who lose their houses. Yeah, CAPITALISTIC HEALTHCARE ROCKS!!
"
Well socialism health care will be a lot worse "
LOL"
If the government takes over all the medical stuff there will be a budget, in that budget there will be blocks, those limited blocks will be for lets say brain surgery. Now you have a 30 year old illegal alien who is just here to earn money then head back to mexico and a 60 year old male who has been paying taxes all his life. Who would they choose to help the young male because he would have more tax life in him.
Why exactly would France come to mind when you speak of socialism? France has a mixed economy. Also their GDP per capita is higher than that of the US. If anything it proves they are less lazy than people here in the U.S. Also people have brought up health care. Access to health care in the U.S. is comparable to a developing nation. Those who have health insurance are often under insured, and even those who are not may still receive inadequate care because a company is trying to cut costs.
To all those equating the American economic model with Capitalism, examine the level of government involvement in your country's economy, and come back and tell me whether or not it's a capitalist system.
Also, to Diamond, your points discuss capitalists (who exist everywhere) operating in a mixed economy.
Everybody takes the path of least resistance to wealth, the question is which system allows that path of least resistance to be the most beneficial to the most people. It certainly isn't socialism, for the reasons both you and Diamond discussed (because under straight-up socialism there's no incentive to work hard or to research or implement powerful ideas, and under a mixed economy, people rise to the top with exploitation, dishonesty, and manipulation. None of which have any market value if the market were free)
Capitalism as a social/political movement has never really been implemented.
A free market -- that is, not an American- or European-style manipulated market -- would encourage industriousness, sober evaluation of ideas and production methods, and hard work; since those are the only things that add material value to people's lives.
Having said that, in parts of the world where identities are oriented differently (i.e., collective emphasis and individual de-emphasis), i.e. the People's Republic of China, a person will work hard and research and implement world-changing ideas in the name of their nation.
That is the tragedy of the western mixed economy, it operates on the basis of individual identity, but social wealth ownership and management. Economic development as such happens in disjointed fashions: slush funds, pork barrel politics, sub-prime mortgages, government-insured bank deposits, et cetera. There is massive incentive for personal vigilance, but no political will for it due to the guilt imposed on whites by their forebearers' actions (i.e. colonialism, extermination of aboriginals, et cetera.)
"To all those equating the American economic model with Capitalism, examine the level of government involvement in your country's economy, and come back and tell me whether or not it's a capitalist system. Also, to Diamond, your points discuss capitalists (who exist everywhere) operating in a mixed economy. Everybody takes the path of least resistance to wealth, the question is which system allows that path of least resistance to be the most beneficial to the most people. It certainly isn't socialism, for the reasons both you and Diamond discussed (because under straight-up socialism there's no incentive to work hard or to research or implement powerful ideas, and under a mixed economy, people rise to the top with exploitation, dishonesty, and manipulation. None of which have any market value if the market were free) Capitalism as a social/political movement has never really been implemented. A free market -- that is, not an American- or European-style manipulated market -- would encourage industriousness, sober evaluation of ideas and production methods, and hard work; since those are the only things that add material value to people's lives. Having said that, in parts of the world where identities are oriented differently (i.e., collective emphasis and individual de-emphasis), i.e. the People's Republic of China, a person will work hard and research and implement world-changing ideas in the name of their nation. That is the tragedy of the western mixed economy, it operates on the basis of individual identity, but social wealth ownership and management. Economic development as such happens in disjointed fashions: slush funds, pork barrel politics, sub-prime mortgages, government-insured bank deposits, et cetera. There is massive incentive for personal vigilance, but no political will for it due to the guilt imposed on whites by their forebearers' actions (i.e. colonialism, extermination of aboriginals, et cetera.)"
I agree in all systems these same problems crop up in different ways because of human nature. I disagree that capitalism is any better than socialism for providing the 'most benefit to the most people'. The goals of research and powerful idea implementation as pushed by capitalism aren't necessarily what's best for the most people, in most cases they aren't.
A pure capitalist society would be as bad as an extremist socialist society (but in different ways). A few people would have massive success from the start, but they would quickly eliminate all positive innovation and worth ethic and instead focus on their own interest. Instead of an all powerful self-serving socialist government, you'd have an all powerful self-serving corporation that could do anything it wanted to whomever it wanted.
Personally I think we've gone far too far into unregulated wild capitalism. Things will balance out, and probably go too far towards socialism, it may take a few decades to get there. Then finally things will start moving back the other way. With government and society and business all pushing back and forth against each other, that's the only way we can have productive balance.
"Personally I think we've gone far too far into unregulated wild capitalism. Things will balance out, and probably go too far towards socialism, it may take a few decades to get there. Then finally things will start moving back the other way. With government and society and business all pushing back and forth against each other, that's the only way we can have productive balance."
"Personally I think we've gone far too far into unregulated wild capitalism. Things will balance out, and probably go too far towards socialism, it may take a few decades to get there. Then finally things will start moving back the other way. With government and society and business all pushing back and forth against each other, that's the only way we can have productive balance."
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