I'm going to list some things about the movie and not really format it since I just saw it and want to get it all down ASAP.
Spoiler blocked this in case someone mis-clicks or what have you, but feel free to not use them in this thread.
I'm going to list some things about the movie and not really format it since I just saw it and want to get it all down ASAP.
So dude is totally Khan, and while I saw it coming a mile away I'm disappointed that they did indeed make him Khan and didn't try and stray away from the plot of the original wrath of khan.
Leading me to my next point, boy was this derivative of wrath of khan, and I feel like Ryan or someone totally guessed one of the main plot points of this movie months ago on twitter (Kirk dies instead of Spock, with him being on the inside of the glass this time rather than Spock himself.)
Spock yelling "Khaaaaan!" made me cringe really hard.
The second Bones injected that thing with Khan's blood I immediately knew Kirk or Spock would die and that they would be revived, which took all the tension and drama out of the entire final act of the movie and almost all of the remainder of the movie itself (Bones tests Khans blood fairly early on...)
The final act of the movie, it just fell apart. The main plot threads were all played out, the movie just came hurtling to its conclusion and everyone lived happily ever after.
I just wished it wasn't so derivative of the wrath of khan, surely they could have made "John Harrison" be another member of Khan's crew and perhaps had him die.
I would have liked to have seen some time pass following Kirk losing the enterprise (few years perhaps?) I feel like there was potential for a better plot right there.
Oh, and "they took away my trans-warp beaming equation?"....
Spoiler blocked this in case someone mis-clicks or what have you, but feel free to not use them in this thread.
I'm really glad I effectively blocked out all coverage of this movie before seeing it as it probably would have halved my enjoyment.
I probably pick up on the dumb stuff really. The use of the Beastie Boys seems even more out of place than the last one, but on the more serious end the pacing isn't anywhere near as good (first hour drags) and the balance of the characters isn't handled as well either. Like you said, some of the twists are heavily telegraphed, and the in end it just sort of haphazardly wraps itself up in a weird way. Particularly Kirk's desire to get a five year mission, because I thought that's what they were on already. Also wish the Klingons had been used a little better visually; what we saw of them was mostly like what was cut out of the first movie, and you only get a glimpse of one without a helmet on.
Overall, when it's good it's great, but I didn't quite feel like they'd knocked it out of the park this time.
@evilnights: yeah, roughly one minute of a klingon and then all of them were dead.
Also the bad guy getting captured on purpose thing... :|
Did not enjoy the movie at all, which is weird because I had a fondness for the first one. I thought that most of the character interactions lacked any spark or chemistry (Cumberbatch seemed a world away from every other character, never really clicking with anyone and just being some weird antagonistic entity). Uhura and Spock never seemed like two people in a relationship, while Spock and Kirk never seemed to actually enjoy eachother's company. Alice Eve's character was paper-thin and totally undeveloped, as was her father (the defacto antagonist for a third of the movie out of no where). Overall it just felt really insubstantial, and nothing particularly exciting happened to make me feel like shrugging it off as "dumb fun" like the first movie.
SPOILER-Y TALK:
Why did they spend so much damn time on the Klingons if they weren't going to do anything with them? Why did Old Spock randomly show up for some slow exposition in the middle of a tense fight-scene? Why did they make sure a fuss over Noel Clarke blowing up a library if the movie only decided to mention it in an offhand piece of dialogue later on? Why was over half of the movie just a series of people making promises and then not actually following up on them ("Hey give us Khan and we'll let you live haha nevermind we were never going to let you live" "Hey we'll give you the torpedo-people haha actually we didn't give you the torpedo people") The second point seems even more laughable because it was supposed to be a show of Spock's brilliant cunning, when it reality it was just him saying he was going to do a thing and then not doing it. Little touches like Alice Eve's totally forced and awkward bra-and-panties scene also peeved me, as well as unnamed crew members randomly being assigned important jobs because the film wrote itself into a corner and somehow in 2 and a half hours didn't find the time to develop any of the characters. Kirk continues to not give a fuck what anyone else thinks, Spock is still verbose to the point of being utterly obnoxious, Uhura is the same, Scotty is the same, Chekov is the same, Bones is the same, nothing is different and now we have a deus-ex-machina that means characters don't even need to die anymore.
Sorry for the rant, but I dunno, this is the first time this year i've come out of the movie theatre thinking I saw a movie I genuinely disliked.
@lackingsaint: I pretty much agree with your points, though I enjoyed scotty quite a lot in this movie.
And yeah, what the hell, having Leonard Nimoy back again was worse than not having him at all.
Little touches like Alice Eve's totally forced and awkward bra-and-panties scene also peeved me,
This! This! Argh, *this*!
While I thought Saldana's in the first one kind of had 'contract stipulation' all over it, there sitcom-ish humour about the scene and there's at least some flimsy narrative use for it. This one seemed like "Yo, Paramount won't even release this movie without tits in it. Also, 3D!" and the lack of development for Eve as a love interest (she has more chemistry with McCoy, although admittedly that might have been intentional) to the point that the shot is used in the trailer implying something else entirely, and it's insulting to watch.
I'm surprised that Spock Prime hasn't returned to regular Star Trek universe yet, I guess there's more to be done in rebuilding the Vulcan race? Or are they just keeping him around as a plot device to give Spock and the audience info on how things played out differently for him?
For better or worse if they're done with that universe it doesn't make much sense to send him back.
@scroll: What doesn't work like what?
I'm surprised that Spock Prime hasn't returned to regular Star Trek universe yet, I guess there's more to be done in rebuilding the Vulcan race? Or are they just keeping him around as a plot device to give Spock and the audience info on how things played out differently for him?
For better or worse if they're done with that universe it doesn't make much sense to send him back.
Well I hope they do something better with him than just having him hanging around waiting to be called up by his younger self so he can give sage advice.
@flstyle: Yeah, by the time that part actually happened I'd resigned myself to the idea they just weren't going to do it. That one ended up looking like they didn't have a lot of time with Nimoy to do anything more substantial.
All that said, I kind of like the way Spock Prime exists in the reboot. Reboots are already a contentious issue for me, so having him star in a way that ties it back to the original continuity rather than a blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo where he's delivering a pizza or something gives them some interesting options.
As far a canonical explanation of why he hasn't gone back, I don't think he can? The circumstances in which he went back in time are largely an accident and the ship he was using was destroyed. Plus, there doesn't necessarily seem like much reason for him to go: the timeline he knew has been irrevocably changed and he can do more good in the past right now. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, right?
Is Benedict Cumberbatch any good in it at least?
Blows everyone else out of the water in my opinion.
Is Benedict Cumberbatch any good in it at least?
Blows everyone else out of the water in my opinion.
Alright that's good enough for me. The man is super entertaining to watch in general so i'll be seeing this.
Is Benedict Cumberbatch any good in it at least?
Blows everyone else out of the water in my opinion.
Alright that's good enough for me. The man is super entertaining to watch in general so i'll be seeing this.
He's awesome, steals every scene he's in.
Little touches like Alice Eve's totally forced and awkward bra-and-panties scene also peeved me,
This! This! Argh, *this*!
While I thought Saldana's in the first one kind of had 'contract stipulation' all over it, there sitcom-ish humour about the scene and there's at least some flimsy narrative use for it. This one seemed like "Yo, Paramount won't even release this movie without tits in it. Also, 3D!" and the lack of development for Eve as a love interest (she has more chemistry with McCoy, although admittedly that might have been intentional) to the point that the shot is used in the trailer implying something else entirely, and it's insulting to watch.
But she looks SOOOOOOO good in the trailer.
@pr1mus: Space British.
She looks waaaaaaaay better in the screencaps on Celebrity Movie Archive. Yeah, I went there.
Little touches like Alice Eve's totally forced and awkward bra-and-panties scene also peeved me,
This! This! Argh, *this*!
While I thought Saldana's in the first one kind of had 'contract stipulation' all over it, there sitcom-ish humour about the scene and there's at least some flimsy narrative use for it. This one seemed like "Yo, Paramount won't even release this movie without tits in it. Also, 3D!" and the lack of development for Eve as a love interest (she has more chemistry with McCoy, although admittedly that might have been intentional) to the point that the shot is used in the trailer implying something else entirely, and it's insulting to watch.
But she looks SOOOOOOO good in the trailer.
To be fair that scene is counter balanced when Khan breaks her leg by stamping on it.
@wrighteous86: @evilnights: @wraxend: For reference
I totally thought she'd be evil.
@pr1mus: Space British.
She looks waaaaaaaay better in the screencaps on Celebrity Movie Archive. Yeah, I went there.
Nudies?
BRB. Gonna Google then ogle.
... I fucking loved it.
Perhaps it is because I'm not a Trekker but just the little things made me so happy.
Bones getting a "Damn it, I'm a doctor not an X!" line, the role reversal with spok/kirk at the end, how badass Khan was, the new ship catching up with them whilst in subspace, the opening sequence bringing it back to an old one-off episode...
Plus, I liked how they called Nimoy back, because damn it that was exactly what was going through my head (why don't you just call Spok and ask him?)
So much to like. Sure, I enjoyed the first one more - but screw it. We're in a world where the second movie is usually worse than the first with very few exceptions and I can deal with that.
ED: And oh yeah, Benedict Cumberbatch is fantastic. Totally steals the show.
Gotta say, I really loved the movie too. There was some good fan service, particularly the references to Section 31 and as someone who completely avoided spoilers, the Khan reveal was pretty mind blowing, even if the events leading up to it began to telegraph it pretty obviously. I also like the fact they at least attempted to address the stupidity of the first movie, when they had Kirk go from being a cadet to instantly being the captain.
The bra and panties bit was probably the worst part of the movie though. Totally out of place and all I could do was roll my eyes.
@selfconfessedcynic: @wintersnowblind: I'm glad I wasn't the only one who liked it. Like self-confessed said, maybe its cause I'm not a Trekkie and don't have anything to compare it to that made it so enjoyable to me. I only barely know the canon and details around the old plots of Star Trek so for me it made it all seem fresh and enjoyable and this time around I felt like there was less of just blowing things up cause they can and more meaningful dialogue between the characters. Was it a perfect movie no, but it's a summer blockbuster and it delivered exactly what I was hoping for, 2 hours of an escape from reality, great acting by Quinto and Cumberbatch, and some intense action set pieces. I guess this is where not being a fan of the canon comes in handy because you don't have anything to compare it too. So you can enjoy it as a stand alone work instead of nit-picking it for everything it did wrong compared to past attempts.
I am a Trekkie, and I still loved the movie. It was enjoyable, fun, and pretty decently acted. Associating expectations on something based off prior work is a good way to ruin your fun with everything.
I feel like an outsider on this I really enjoyed it. The similarities which some have called derivative of Wrath of Khan kind of have to be there. Its an alternate timeline but there have to be parallels or whats the point? The action was fine, the TV shows can have all the talkie diplomatic logical discussion episodes they want. I want to see two hours of millions of dollars worth of CG space ships blowing the hell out of each other.
Even though its much more action heavy this movie felt more like Star Trek than the first one as well in a weird way. JJ Abrams is doing the right thing whether you like it or not. Star Trek totally stalled a decade ago for a reason. Now someone has come along and sexied it up for a new generation and naturally thats going to piss people off but also find new fans. Star Trek was proving a semi-reboot was necessary, Into Darkness is it finding its voice.
Also whatever Benedict Cumberbatch was doing with his voice to change his accent totally made him sound like Hans Gruber from Die Hard.
So I said some of this in another thread. I literally just got back from seeing it so my thoughts are a touch muddled right now, but I feel like jotting some of them down.
I guess the first thing to say is that I did enjoy the film, certainly a lot more than I thought I was going to, because I'm really not a fan of the first film, I'd hear bad things about this one and I'm really not a fan of Abrams of Lindheloff. I'm not going to spend a lot of time talking about why I liked it, mostly because it's the sort of enjoyment that is difficult to put into words. For me it was a bit like a Michael Bay movie with the more obviously awful stuff removed (pointless knickers scene excluded).
Overall though, I think I agree with @thrice_604 when he says it feels more like Star Trek than the first one, partly because the things from the last film that felt really un-star trek are illuminated or brought into a more familiar framework. I know it seems minor, but things like showing us the reactor core, and locating that within the huge industrial engine room from the first film (which felt quite un-trek to me) really did a lot to help me accept it. Something in the structure of it felt very trek to me as well, but may also be weaknesses in terms of it being a film of its own; It was very compartmentalised, and you can very easily break it up into (accelerated) episodes of a tv series I think - the one where they have to sneak around on Qo'nos to find someone; why has the reactor stopped working?; oh no we're falling onto this planet what are we to do?! - each of these episodes felt like the could probably fill a star trek episode, or at least one of the ones with loads of filler shots. For me this segmented quality wasn't a problem, partly because it was generally clear how each scenario related to the wider narrative, and I think it works far better than the (largely) laser focused first film, because what the first film focused on was just so uninteresting, and the biggest detour felt grafted on uncomfortably.
Unfortunately very few of these situations are used for anything other than narrative force and (admittedly well staged) action sequences. Not a bad thing in itself, but it does sort of show you where the tone of the film is really divergent from the TV Series (although as I am mostly a fan of TNG perhaps I am not the best person to say this), which might have spent a bit more time examining the philosophical questions around some of the less time-critical situations. I think the best example might be the whole Noel Clarke Daughter/coerced bombing thing, a situation from which a lot of thematic threads could have been drawn. Ultimately the entire sequence came off as a rather empty excercise in style. Like I say, it's not a fatal problem, but it means for all the enjoyment that can be extracted, it is not a film destined to linger in the mind.
This is probably the root of my difficulty in just saying I liked the film, really. There's a shallowness to it that runs right the way through it, and is perhaps most evident in the way the characters interact in such a static fashion, particularly Bones and Spock. On one level, it seems like a great idea to explore as many relationships between the different crew members as possible, but for these two it is reduced to Bones making jokes about Spock's coldness. I just felt, how interesting might it be if there felt like there was some real animosity there, that might impact the plot in some way? This lack of exploration of characters and motives is actually a real problem the more I think about it. The nadir is probably when Spock references Khan's desire to purify the universe of anything which is genetically inferior, a motive which isn't deemed important enough to show us before then, nor to draw much of our attention to it as Spock mentions it (if, as I assume is the case, Spock Prime is supposed to have told him this off-screen).
I think that's the end of any organised thought I can give you, but I have a couple of other scattered thoughts to offer:
Firstly, I think I might be going against the grain in saying I didn't enjoy Cumberbatch all that much, overall. Some great moments (his decisiveness in deciding whether or not to surrender to Kirk on Qo'nos is a well tuned moment, and he puts a lot into a very quick gesture). It started relatively well, but he just cranked it up so much over the course of the film, and I thought it was really overboard. I am usually a fan of scenery chewing, but this was something else entirely. I felt like they wanted me to be seduced by him, and I just wasn't getting the requisite charisma in his performance - although was mesmerised by the stuntman doing his action sequences. The fluidity of the fight between him and the Klingons really is seductive. This is another slight miscue as well, I thought. More could (should?) be made of how obviously impressed Kirk is by Khan's efficiency when that efficiency tips over into brutality.
I don't like to list minor plot holes and factual errors, but there were some fairly egregious ones. Cold Fusion does not make stuff cold, and even if it did I don't think that would prevent a volcano from erupting. The real headscratcher for me though, was why, after witnessing (and making awestruck note of) his dispatch of a large force of Klingons, would you believe that 4 security officers would do anything against him? Nice one Kirk.
Both in terms of this film's relationship to established Trek continuity, and to some extent it's own continuity. Robocop makes a reference to seemingly recent first contact with Klingons, but Uhura can speak Klingon basically fluently? Did the Vulcans never run into any Klingons, and if they did how come there isn't some sort of diplomatic network set up? OK, so maybe I am asking for a bit much here, but I do feel a better overview of what that situation is, politically, would have been good. What about the robot dude on the bridge, who is seemingly dirctly linked to the Ship's systems? In TNG, Data was advanced to the point that no one had been able to replicate him (and even he couldn't directly hook himself into the ship's computer without causing shit to go wrong), so is he just a piece of equipment (in which case, why bother?) or is robotics just way more advanced in this timeline for some reason. I guess I'm not asking for these things to be explained, I just wish they were thought through a little more? yes, I realise I sound like a massive nerd.
Lens Flare - it literally covers the face of a character who is speaking at one point. that is too far, Abrams.
Finally, I just really hate all the "easter egg" type stuff. By far the nadir was when Kirk says "if they find out we're starfleet then there'll be a star war." Not only is it a lame joke, it barely makes any sense as a thing to say (unless Star Wars came out in '76 in the star trek universe as well?). A "star war" is not really a thing outside of star wars, is it?
I dunno. Like I say, I enjoyed it a lot more than the first one, although perhaps it won't bear repeat viewing. It was certainly better than some of the other blockbuster action flicks I've seen recently.
Is Wrath of Khan worth watching? As someone who knows a fair deal about Star Trek and its tropes through general podcast listening etc. I've never actually watched the original series or series of films, but even I got hyped when he shouted his name. So From someone who didn't know what derived from where I liked a lot of it, though as the OP said it was blatently obvious someone was going to die as soon as Bones injected that thing
Nope, this new movie is great. I think folks look at Wrath of Khan with rose tinted glasses. The old movie is good but not great, in fact the story of the old movie is a bit too "1930s Buck Rogers" for my taste. The new movie has thinner characters but they are within a FAR better story.
As someone who hasn't seen any (well, like three eps of the original series) Star Trek outside of the new movies, I enjoyed it. Many people have been saying it isn't Star-Treky enough, particularly because of its focus on fighting over exploration, but that doesn't bother me. I will say that the women characters were played off pretty terribly (what was up with that random half naked chick scene?), but the action felt good and it was well-acted across the board.
@mercutio123: Back in 2010 I made a point of rewatching (or just watching in a couple of cases) all the Star Trek films. The Original Motion Picture Collection cost me about £15, and while not the same awesome value as the Fast & Furious 1-5 set that cost £8, you're still getting a decent collection. Plus the bonus disc is an hour-long roundtable with Shatner, Nimoy, Steward, and Frakes (moderated by Whoopi Goldberg!) that makes up for a couple of the movies being naff.
Sure, they're not all winners, but it's a little piece of history still.
Of course, if you just want to watch Wrath of Khan you can probably get it a lot cheaper. I watched it again a few days after Into Darkness and it still holds up. There are a few moments where you'll go "ahhhhhhhhhhh!", but they're very different movies really.
I know this isn't strictly speaking relevant, but since people are talking about the originals; I just caught Star Trek VI (the undiscovered country) on telly and damn that's a fine film. It was interesting to see because a lot of the things that EVERYONE knows about TOS don't seem to be all that in evidence. Case in point; Shatner puts in a pretty decent, not overly hammy performance.
I love all that self-referential callback stuff so I thought the movie was great. I don't get all the complaints about things being telegraphed early on, that's exactly what these summer blockbusters are all about.
@pr1mus: It's a fun movie if nothing else. I didn't mind the throwbacks and plot line, for me it added to the fun. I didn't go into this expecting an Oscar movie, just a good sci fi action flick and that's what I got and I am more than happy with the movie. I liked A LOT more than Iron Man 3. Enemy was engaging and I think that's what made it fun for me.
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