Star Wars The Last Jedi Discussion (tag your spoilers!)

I am baffled by the idea that his movie isn't taking chances. I don't know what will happen next between Kylo and Rey, but the idea that there isn't anything there is silly to me.

This movie is just a straight-up bad entry in the series. Almost none of the humor sticks. It is overlong, wasting tons of time on pointless subplots and flimsy characters. There are leaps of logic which are pretty egregious, and - at least to me - the film seems confused about the kind of message it wanted to really tell the audience.

Even Mark Hamill has dropped hints that he was unhappy with how they (mis)wrote Luke.

I'm not going to go over other issues here because this thread has already tread that ground, or undoubtedly will. Instead I'll leave this, because I agree with most of their points about TLJ (spoilers, obviously):

Don't get me wrong, here. I don't begrudge people for enjoying this movie, or others like it (Marvel films?). That said, it's pretty clear this is going to be even more divisive than Episode 7 or Rogue One, and that is not a good thing for the franchise. Maybe Lucas wasn't the problem after all

@giantstalker: He has flat out stated in an interview he thought everything was wrong about Luke in this movie, so it's gone well beyond hints at this stage.

@darkeyehails: link? I know how that can sound in internet speak but I am genuinely curious to see what Hamill said because I can't see an outright dismissal?

I watched it a second time(cuz friends). Now that I know not to expect anything from Snoke, the entire throne room scene is a delight. If we're talking about just this scene(and the nobody twist), I can see how people are making comparisons to Empire Strikes Back.

Sadly, I also had to watch the rest of the movie. Empire was never this uneven. The lowlights of TLJ really don't hold up in a second viewing. I can't believe how much those of you who enjoyed the movie are downplaying the atrociousness of the Finn portion of the movie. When 1/4 to 1/3 of the movie is the next best thing to objectively terrible, that generally doesn't make for a great movie. Especially when that extra 30-45min is responsible for how overlong and dragged out the film felt. A tight ship, this movie is not.

The Poe portion was dramatic tension by way of stupidity/miscommunication. A chase scene without any adrenaline or speed. But, still it was ok.

Literally the only stuff that in considered 'good'/'great' by the majority of people is the force user parts of the movie. That's maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the movie. Still some people are comparing this movie to Empire Strikes Back!? SMH.

@sethmode: It's pretty well documented online that Mark Hamill didn't agree with Rian Johnson's take on the character. Here's a compilation of interview takes

This thread has taught be a valuable lesson I should've known already: Don't fuck with the Star Wars fanbase.

It was fun a for bit but I'm scared of you ppl.

Its the same with any rapid fanbase, Star Wars, Star Trek, Persona, Metal Gear and so on. Crossing a line is like a direct insult to their whole being.

@meierthered: I've never felt it this strong. Usually I come away feeling like "oh, nerds" but this, some of this feels down right vindictive.

@qrowdyy: I saw that, but it feels kind of manipulatively edited. I was wondering if there was something a little more concrete.

VI, I, II, III, VII and now VIII are all divisive Star Wars films. The vast majority of them. We need even more divisive Star Wars films until people start to see the franchise for what it actually is and always has been. Your (general your, not you specifically) childhood memory perfect intellectual movies that were IV and V and to a lesser extend VI, never were that. Star Wars is and always have been fun fantasy movies with goofy plots in a goofy universe.

Expectations matter. Not in the sense of whether it will be good or bad, but in the sense of what type of movie you are going to see. Marvel movies are great, if you go in expecting to see a fun movie that doesn't take things too seriously and doesn't try to break some sort of narrative ground. In this sense, Star Wars movies are actually much the same. That is not a bad thing.

@qrowdyy I like how you put a catchy statement in bold letters, followed by dismissing everyone's opinion who doesn't align with yours. Is that just supposed to be a clever metaphor for how bad you thought the writing was? Or are you actually convincing yourself your opinion matters more than anyone else's? I tend to think it is the latter since you pull a 'the majority thinks what I think' argument after that.

I'll bite. Do you have a source that shows the number of people that have seen Star Wars with their opinions on the specific parts you are talking about?

At least one person has their head on straight.

I say this as someone who has star wars practically running through their veins since literally before I can remember.

The first trilogy has the benefit of being original and the time and place. You are never, ever going to "relive the magic of your childhood." Star Wars has and always has been very entertaining fantasy movies that (at one point) pushed visual effects boundaries and wowed you. Guys for real, Star Wars is just a very simple action packed fantasy movie series with great character stuff. If the very idea of continuing the main saga already sours you, I don't see what they could possibly do to change your minds. I honestly think these two new ones are pretty much doing their best at making very entertaining space fantasy movies that touch on that original magic.

Want something completely new? Wait til Rian Johnson's trilogy or...watch something that isn't Star Wars. Oh and once again, I say this as literally the biggest star wars fan I know. I read the books, watch the cartoons, I cosplay Poe Dameron, etc. It's important to recognize the reality though. Star Wars is an all-ages inclusive simple adventure series. All I want is moving and entertaining movies and I'm good.

The difference is that the original trilogy were good adventure movies. They capture the magic of a different world, they have a progression and story that builds on itself and makes sense and they had believable and tactile characters. Much like the LotR trilogy it's quite self-serious, but not over the top, which is essential for making an immersive enjoyable adventure. It needs to grab your attention and truly transport you into another realm. And while they do have funny moments they don't have comedical bits to constantly remind you that you're watching made up characters trying to entertain you.

It's the same exact problem I've had with Marvel movies for quite a while now, they forget the adventure. They forget the "magic" of transporting you to a different reality where anything is possible and new mysterious things lurk around the corner. They are flashy and entertaining, but they lack the depth that makes for a truly great entertaining fantasy movie.

No one ever claimed Star Wars were the most thought-provoking complex intellectual movies out there, but they were unique, creative and magical and sparked our imagination.

@ares42: It's completely anecdotal, but I have multiple people in my life that came to Star Wars as adults and find very little difference between the original trilogy and the new movies, at least insofar as the "adventure movie" aspect that you mention. I am led to believe that a lot of nostalgia influences the idea that the original trilogy are all that different from the new movies. Just my perspective though.

I also think that kids are having their imaginations sparked by the new Star Wars, just, adult fans don't seem interested in hearing that because they're dug in that basically anything post Empire is at least arguably bad for some reason or another.

@sethmode: There's some more concrete stuff towards the end of the video. There are also a few articles online if you wanna look that up.

You clearly didn't understand what I was getting at. I'm sure you're angry because you enjoyed the movie and I'm 'dismissing your opinion'. Wrong. I was making a point about how comparing Last Jedi to Empire is ludicrous. In fact, its just as much of an overreaction as people saying TLJ is as bad as the prequels.

Nowhere did I say that TLJ was a bad movie when taken as a whole. Cmon man don't misrepresent what i said in an attempt to 'win' an argument.

Also, where's the outrage when people who didn't like the movie are dismissed as 'miserable', 'nitpicky', 'fanboys', 'not having their head on straight'. Double standard much?

That the Finn plotline is bad is something there's been almost universal agreement on. On internet, from critics, irl, and most importantly in this thread(important because its easy to verify). That's why it was bolded, because going back through this thread people seem to gloss over what a big part of the movie it was. Similarly there's been pretty universal praise for the force user parts of the movie. Notice how I don't use the word 'majority' until I started talking about the positive points of the movie.

Now, instead of asking for hard numbers(what a tactic...), maybe you can actually address the points I made in my original post. Am I wrong to say that TLJ's unevenness disqualifies any talk about how it's as good as Empire Strikes Back? Why am I wrong?

Edit: Added the double standard line.

@sethmode: They are old movies that most new adventure movies steal heavily from, so ofc they don't stand out in the crowd anymore. You could say it's unfair to expect the new movies to re-invent the genre, but that is the legacy of the franchise so if you're not doing that why use the franchise ? (other than the obvious money grab ofc). And we've also had stuff like LotR and Harry Potter break out and catch peoples imaginations (young and old), so it's not totally unreasonable for people to have some expectations for a franchise as big as Star Wars to come out and blow people away.

@frostyryan: @zevvion: Here's the thing about expectations, though. Disney titled the movie The Last Jedi. They put out that trailer with Mark Hamill saying "it's time for the Jedi to end." They spend the beginning of the movie having Luke tear down the order and their philosophy. They spend the middle third of the movie contemplating Kylo and Rey joining forces, leaving behind the old dichotomy of good and evil. And then they don't do that. Disney set those expectations, not us. They put out the bait that Star Wars could be something different. Why do that if they aren't interested in following up on it?

And I say that as someone who doesn't self-identify as a Star Wars fan. I didn't see the original trilogy in the theaters. I haven't played all the games. Never read a single Star Wars book. So set all that "nostalgia rabid fanboyism" nonsense aside, and lets just talk about the movie, ok?

It's crazy Solo is suppose to come out end of May. I thought it was a December release, seems too soon.

@liquiddragon: They're definitely running the risk of all annual franchises of running it into the ground. 4 movies in two and a half years might be a little much.

@zevvion: As I said earlier, I don't want to drag this out. There are plenty of people already in this thread who are willing to debate these and other points in greater detail. But you do seem to be calling out my points specifically, so I'll bite a bit:

First, I'd argue the prequels aren't really divisive. There is absolutely a consensus on these entries, and it's directly attributable to the fact that they're just not good movies. Consensus doesn't mean everybody, it means a meaningful majority. You can point to exceptions if you like, but then again I can find entire websites devoted to telling us the Earth is still flat. There are pointlessly contrarian communities everywhere which don't prove anything about the substantive truths they oppose.

We've got the originals which are broadly considered good, even Jedi. We've got the prequels which are broadly considered bad, even Sith. The new ones are definitely outliers for important structural reasons, and it's not just related to how new they are.

Anyway, this is just my perspective here. I see something inherently soulless in taking a flawed, but undeniably great, initial series of films and turning them into design-by-committee annual blockbusters with so little added value in mythos or vision. Transformers does this to a T, and very few serious film critics would (or should) defend those. I feel like I have to hold this franchise to a higher standard, even when it's pretty clear we aren't going to get there under Disney.

The originals felt like a real creative work by a well-supported artist; it was fun, yes of course, but it was unique and truly original in that it represented the vision, the strengths and flaws, of its director. This is what really give it enduring power compared to a ton of other vapid culture from the period. A really good friend of mine was in his twenties when he saw the original in '77 and the sequels in '80 and '83; he could tell right away, explaining in half as many words but with twice as much emotion, that these new movies just don't capture any of that.

Wishing to see something even close to the craft and originality of the old trilogy is the only view I can keep in good conscience here; unfortunately, that was always the crushing challenge in making additional Star Wars movies. It's a justified but almost unfair standard to be held to. Star Wars isn't just a blockbuster film; it's the blockbuster that lasted because it really was so much more.

@sethmode: No worries, mate, I didn't think you were being rude or anything.

Link is https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/05/mark-hamill-star-wars-nerd

The big quote is this :
Likewise, after reading Rian Johnson’s script for The Last Jedi, Hamill said, “I at one point had to say to Rian, ‘I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision.’”

I quote:

When 1/4 to 1/3 of the movie is the next best thing to objectively terrible

There is no such thing when we are talking about a subjective thing.

Literally the only stuff that in considered 'good'/'great' by the majority of people

I know 'literally' can mean figuratively in the US, but you are stating here that a majority is aligning with whatever your opinion is going to be, consequently stating whatever you don't mention is bad. I'm not saying that is factually incorrect, but I highly doubt you actually know the answer to what a majority thought and have the statistics to back it up. Mostly because those statistics don't exist.

I don't have a problem with anything else you said and I am not dismissing your opinion. You can think the movie is bad and I can see the argument for someone thinking so, but I can't see that argument with statements such as these.

As for your question, I think Empire is quite a boring movie. I would gladly have a bad bit such as the casino sequence, which I agree is not great, if it means getting highly exciting moments too. For me The Last Jedi is better than Empire, not even just as good. The thing is, even if you were to get statistics on what a majority thinks on this particular issue, that wouldn't mean I am wrong. So I'm not sure why you are trying to disqualify any discussion about it. No opinion needs and/or should be the only opinion. Whether majority, minority or whatever else.

@gundamguru I guess I should mention I've not watched any trailers or other promotional material on the film. I never do. I feel it spoils too much and from what you describe it sounds like something that happened once again, as it always does.

I think it's going a step too far to call the movie straight up "Bad". My take away is that it's incredibly well made, but deeply flawed. I chalk this up largely to it being a deconstructive work about Star Wars, and deconstructive work that looks to subvert tropes and expectations will always have one major inherit weakness; that is, in order to subvert tropes, you have to dedicate part of your narrative to leaning into the tropes, or at least pointing them out, therefore the trope is still included, and for the deconstructive approach to truly be great, your art (in this case, storytelling) has to be well crafted enough to equal (or rise above*) the things it is criticizing, which I'm not sure it quite accomplishes.

*Where a work is expected to rise above, rather than just equal, I think depends on ones perspective of the work being critiqued, in this case, that work is Star Wars, so expectations are going be through the roof.

" To help JJ plan the next film here's the perfect formula:

Make it the same as the original trilogy, but also make it different. But dont change anything.

Make sure to include surprises, but not surprises we dont want. In fact avoid surprises. But dont rehash anything. Also dont try something new, because we wont like it.

Make sure to do justice to the cast, but we wont say how. Just make sure to get it right. I want it to be exactly the way I want it. Just a bit different. And also the same.

Make sure we know the back story to all the characters even the incidental ones (because we are all speculating and you better be reading my mind) but leave it mysterious at the same time.

No CGI! Keep it practical. But make sure to expand the universe like the prequels did, you know, using CGI.

Also dont do anything the prequels did. Or Force Awakens. Or the original trilogy. But make it like those films too.

Give it some humour too. But dont make it too funny.

Show us some new force powers! But not ones we havent seen before because new powers are ridiculous.

Dont kill anyone! it betrays my childhood. But also make it unpredictable by killing off a few characters.

Clear? Good."

@zevvion:

I quote:

When 1/4 to 1/3 of the movie is the next best thing to objectively terrible

There is no such thing when we are talking about a subjective thing.

Opinions are Subjective!? Who Knew? /s

I didn't use the qualifier 'next best thing' by accident.

Literally the only stuff that in considered 'good'/'great' by the majority of people

I know 'literally' can mean figuratively in the US, but you are stating here that a majority is aligning with whatever your opinion is going to be, consequently stating whatever you don't mention is bad. I'm not saying that is factually incorrect, but I highly doubt you actually know the answer to what a majority thought and have the statistics to back it up. Mostly because those statistics don't exist.

I already explained my intent in the previous post. There should be no more misunderstanding on your part that this is just a poorly phrased line. A better line would have been 'the only stuff generally considered good by people on both sides of the argument'. Now can you stop arguing about semantics and phrasing in lieu of a proper rebuttal? This is some silly, nitpicky shit and an obvious derail.

As for your question, I think Empire is quite a boring movie. I would gladly have a bad bit such as the casino sequence, which I agree is not great, if it means getting highly exciting moments too. For me The Last Jedi is better than Empire, not even just as good. The thing is, even if you were to get statistics on what a majority thinks on this particular issue, that wouldn't mean I am wrong. So I'm not sure why you are trying to disqualify any discussion about it. No opinion needs and/or should be the only opinion. Whether majority, minority or whatever else.

You still haven't explained why you think TLJ is better than Empire. There's been no discussion(which is what I hoped to prompt). Instead you've gone with 'this is what I think and I don't care what anyone says.'

This smacks of you hedging your bets because you know your on the wrong side of popular sentiment. Just because opinions are subjective doesn't mean that there is no objective truth about a movie's quality. Grown Ups 2 is a bad movie although I can probably find someone on the internet willing to go to bat for it. People have 'wrong' opinions all the time, often choosing to believe something despite objective evidence to the contrary. Its probably way too soon for any kind of objective judgement of TLJ but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

@shiftygism: Despite how reductive and condescending your post was, I'm gonna go ahead and say that it's probably better if JJ Abrams doesn't direct episode IX.

The major problem, as I see it, is that they tried to reboot the franchise two films in a row. This resulted in a directorial pissing contest of two opposing visions clashing. Rian Johnson should probably be allowed to continue where he left off and make good on all his episode 8 ideas. What we're gonna get instead is the an episode IX that swings back the other way to TFA territory so hard that we're all gonna have broken necks from the whiplash.

After seeing this wishy washy **** it only makes me double down on the belief that Star Wars should never have continued after the original trilogy. Was this a Star Wars movie or a god damn comedy? Disney are terrible.

@qrowdyy: You may call it "reductive" and "condescending", I thought it was a humorous and fairly accurate example of how most filmmakers and studios view a certain overly vocal percentage of the audience they'll never be able to please. That's part of the reason they're so eager to move beloved properties into new territory. The casuals are the only thing that matters, and as far as The Last Jedi goes, it's doing well in those respects. They've already got our money, it's about pulling in new fans...and in some strange twist of fate those folks seem to understand what Star Wars is better than those of us who have been life-long fans crying foul at each new release because it doesn't fit our vision of it should or could be.

That and the notion that there's some sort of rift between the ideas of Johnson and Abrams when it was established years ago that each director in this new trilogy would work with the next in some capacity so it would have a smooth transition and the first chapter needed to be being written a certain way (according to Abrams) to bring back the tone of the originals before they could attempt something new. While I have no knowledge of what's actually going down behind the scenes, I'm willing to bet they're on the same page more than you may think, and these supposed answers (or "non answers") to the mysteries The Force Awakens set up, will eventually pan out. It's JJ Abrams helming Episode IX, not his buddy Lindelof.

I heard this on a podcast. If TFA and TLJ were improv partners it would be an example of TFA setting shit up and TLJ failing to "Yes, and..". In other words they don't work well together. Separately is another story.

But, now there are articles coming out that say that JJ Abrams actually approved Rian Johnson's pitch and liked the TLJ story, so what do I know(Although keep in mind that he can't say anything negative while he's on Disney's payroll). For what it's worth, I hope you're right about them being on the same page.

@qrowdyy:

"he can't say anything negative while he's on Disney's payroll)"

heh...somebody should've told that to Hamill...

@shiftygism: no fucks given hamill is my favorite hamill XD

@qrowdyy: there really is no need to be so hostile towards me. You made a mistake in your argumentation and I called you out on it. You didn't go back on your word in your previous post, you only reinforced it and defended it further. I didn't insult you nor was I aggressive about it,as far as I can tell. I have respect for you even though we disagree and would be nice to see that is mutual.

As far as The Last Jedi goes, I don't really know what to respond to your claim that I basically said 'I don' t care who thinks differently about it', other than I really did noy say or imply that. You asked me specifically what I thought about the Last Jedi/Empire comparison unless I am mistaken. I wouldn't have brought it up of you didn't ask me, I only answered your question. None of that has me saying everyone else is wrong or I don't care what they think.

@zevvion:

I like how you put a catchy statement in bold letters, followed by dismissing everyone's opinion who doesn't align with yours. Is that just supposed to be a clever metaphor for how bad you thought the writing was? Or are you actually convincing yourself your opinion matters more than anyone else's?

Your wording here is more than a little rude and confrontational. You called me out with this line. Don't act like a blameless victim. However, I agree with sentiment of mutual respect and I might have been a tad more antagonistic than was called for. Let's call it even and move past it, shall we?

You didn't go back on your word in your previous post, you only reinforced it and defended it further.

No I clarified the intent of my post which you had misread due to the poor phrasing of one line. I am also sooo disinterested in continuing this line of discussion. Semantics....Zzzzz. Literally the only thing I've wanted to discuss since we started this back and forth was Empire vs Last Jedi.

The thing is, even if you were to get statistics on what a majority thinks on this particular issue, that wouldn't mean I am wrong

This is what I was referring to with the 'don't care what anyone thinks' line. An attempt to paraphrase. You said you found Empire boring and Last Jedi a much better movie despite its lows. You offered no arguments to support that view other than the above line.

@qrowdyy

Your wording here is more than a little rude and confrontational. You called me out with this line. Don't act like a blameless victim. However, I agree with sentiment of mutual respect and I might have been a tad more antagonistic than was called for. Let's call it even and move past it, shall we?

A good proposal, agreed.

The thing is, even if you were to get statistics on what a majority thinks on this particular issue, that wouldn't mean I am wrong

To clarify what I meant by this: if 100 people saw the movie and 99 disliked it, the one that is left is not wrong for liking it. He can't be. Unless he is lying, but that is not the case here. That doesn't mean he automatically thinks the other 99 are crazy.

I watched it Tuesday. I didn't hate it, but I didn't enjoy as much as I had hoped. I've been trying to figure out why. I think part of it is because of the maguffin and Finn's subplot.

I think this is one of those weird times where the more distance I get from the movie the more I have mellowed to enjoy it. I said, "It was okay...there were some real good parts...I needed more Finn and Rose and less Laura Dern." However, a week later of mellowing, I think I'm just simply happy with it - It was good enough to make me smile and be happy.

Truthfully, I'm not the sort of person who looks at Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic before going to a movie. I listen to what my friends say or what a handful of web-critics I like say if I listen to anyone. At Giant Bomb if Matt Rorie or Jason Oestreicher say they like ist that's a good recommendation. However, Matt and Jason usually talk about movies long after they are out on the show; s they are more useful for what I missed.

Online I only listen to reviews from Andre "Black Nerd", Movie Bob, Folding Ideas, and Lindsay Ellis. Straight Up - I like Andre's and Movie Bob's quick takes on things; they don't trash anything that isn't actually really trash. For deeper analysis, Folding Ideas and Lindsay Ellis have always though it all through and have the background of film and telling stories in the medium to explain why things don't work. For a hot take that is less researched, yet funny; you cannot do better than Jenny Nicholson.

Be like Bobby....Don't worry, be happy.

JJ was still the Executive Producer for The Last Jedi so he definitely had a say in what was going on with the movie.

Watched it for the second time last night.

Enjoyed it the first time, loved it even more second time round. Also every person ive watched it with enjoyed it. (I wont go into it too much, people like movie bob in the video posted earlier have nailed how I feel about the movie already) but here goes

I do feel that the plot has its stupid moments and there is some bad scenes and poor dialogue. But the rest of the film makes up for that in my opinion. There is some fantastic moments.

I got the nostalgia fest with Force Awakens and Rogue one, and I would have been perfectly fine for more of that. But i really wanted them to go to some different places, especially with Luke. And they did that. And it worked for me.

If people dont like it that's fine, but some of the complaints.......people seem to be forgetting this is an adventure movie for all ages. For example I hated casino section of the film first time round but on second viewing something just clicked for me.

As an adult, and a star wars fan since being a kid it was cool to see a part of the star wars universe that had not been explored before. Who benefits from the empire? Yup the super rich who are into making and selling death machines. It was pretty simple and on the nose social commentary but it worked for me. Guess who probably gave no shits about all of that? Kids. But I bet they loved the kinda silly escape scene on the human face horse things. Also Rose's line before freeing the animal "Now its worth it" or something to that effect. To me as an adult, pretty cringe, but you have to put something obvious for kids in there so that they understand its OK that our heroes just tore through an entire building of seemingly innocent people.

IEveryone of all ages was excited and entertained leaving the theatre. That cant be a bad thing right?

@monkeyking1969: This is honestly my experience as well. I went in with sky high expectations because of rotten tomatoes and in the immediate aftermath the disappoint was sharp af. But, over the last few days my opinion has mellowed out to something more moderate.

Executive Producer != Producer. Executive producer's can be varying levels of hands off, it can even just be an honorary position when a company wants to attach a big name to a movie.

@zirilius: being an executive producer doesn't mean shit

Stephen Spielberg was an exec of Jurassic World.

I've seen the movie twice now and think it was really brave what Rian did with this film. Like many have said any of the new movies will never capture what it felt like to experience star wars OT for the first time. So time to move on, forget the past, kill it if you have to. Then we've had what? 30 - 40 years to get to know all of these heroes from the OT, play them in video games, action figures, probably made up our own adventures with them as kids. And you're bummed because you dont feel as connected with this new crop of heroes and villians? No shit. This was as unpredictable of a Star Wars movie seeing experience as I have ever had. The comedy wasnt great but not terrible. The cinematography was incredible, the sounds, the planets, the fights were all A+.

I think fans need to quit needing these movies as just filler for their wookiepedias entries, and enjoy them as a fun space opera again.

I'm probably done seeing Star Wars movies in the theater. I think all three of them from the past three years have been underwhelming. They lack bite/grit, since they're trying to please everyone. I don't think they're bad at all, just alright, so I'll Redbox them in the future.

Characters/screentime: I wanted more time with Luke and Rey, for them to have more of a relationship. A little too much was spent with Poe and the resistance, even more so with Finn and Rose - I didn't care about their subplot at all.

Action: It wasn't that great or memorable. I liked Poe's first fighter scene, the movie's sole lightsaber fight was good, but there should've been more of them and better. I still prefer Darth Maul's fight scene after all these years and I don't like that trilogy, but that was a great scene.

Story: The middle was a little boring, plot armor with certain characters was too thick, I was tired of people talking about redeeming Kylo. It was somewhat unsatisfying due to the overly forced mystery of Rey's parents. I don't think it was nearly as shocking or surprising as others are saying, but I'll put spoilers.

Killing Luke seemed completely random and unneeded. Part of me wonders if they wanted to get rid of Hamill since he clearly doesn't like this series of movies, where they took Luke, and possibly the director (I can't blame him for some of that). If they don't ever give some backstory to Snoke I think he'll feel cheap and like a plot device since they needed a random strong sith to pose a threat, but where was he during the previous movies or what's his past?

@zirilius: @frostyryan: Hell, Steven Spielberg is the executive producer of the Transformers movies, for that matter.

All indications are that Rian Johnson had free reign to go in whatever direction he liked. This was his movie, for better and for worse. The fact that his movie acts as a mild rebuke to The Force Awakens doesn't necessarily mean that one invalidates the other. Not every story has to be a straight line.

Is it extremely awful of me to say that I think Hamill’s thoughts on Luke’s characterization in this movie are kind of... dumb? He essentially says that Luke is perfect and never gives up and would figure out a way to fix Kylo Ren.

Uh... that sure doesn’t sound like a Jedi to me. Jedi are superstitious, cautious, and wholly reliant on premonition and feelings. They use their sense of the force to determine every action they take. So when Luke sensed extreme evil in Kylo he had a moment of weakness due to his own fear. Fear he struggled with in past movies. It’s not like Luke ever had a multiple decade training like other Jedi to control his feelings. What makes Luke special is that he had a more hurried, desperate training solely from Yoda, who told Luke that he had to control his emotions but also use and accept them. The film even uses Yoda’s appearance as a way to explain that Luke’s failure to control his own feelings isn’t necessarily bad, and may instead result in a new generation of Jedi who have a deeper connection to both their emotions and the force. How is all this a bad thing? Because Luke looks bad? I guess...

“Jedi never give up”??? Yoda and Obi-Wan exiled themselves for TWENTY YEARS after the Clone Wars and Anakin debacle. Luke didn’t really give up in this movie, he just had more to learn. His understanding of the force wasn’t complete. That’s why Yoda showed up to teach him more stuff.

Making Luke some stoic and wise Jedi master that trains Rey and sends her off to kill Kylo Ren is just about the most boring thing I could imagine for them to do. What’s the end game there? How does this propel the Jedi forward? That would quite literally just be following the original films. At least here we see a possible evolution of the Jedi beyond the dull, emotionless, weird monks they used to be.

Maybe this is too wrapped up in my own Star Wars opinions, but the Jedi could obviously never truly beat the Sith because they’re too stupid and naive, and because of the whole balance of the force thing. This movie starts to ask the question of if the force is even a good thing for the greater universe. Yoda says “We are what they grow beyond.” Maybe if Rey and Kylo can get past their antiquated religions they can break the cycle and usher in true peace without the presence of the force.

That’s what I’d do, I guess.

@zevvion: Okay, I didn't see the film, but I already read spoilers, so as for Luke's death, didn't he just die by using the force too long and it made him weak? From what I read about it, that just seems like the reason. Also, I didn't read through the comments, so maybe someone had already replied to you about it.

Luke died because he drank too much milk, many of us must have known that feeling at some point in our lives.

The thing all these compilation video's obfuscate is that Hamill ends his rant with: 'after watching the movie, I see that I was wrong'. You know, the internet using the parts they want to advance their narrative, leaving out the context that doesn't suit them.

I am sure on some level Hamill still disagrees with the decision of Luke's direction, but while I respect his opinion a lot, at the end of the day it's just another one opinion that you don't have to agree with. If you look at the story of the franchise thus far, or even just the prequels alone, jedi are not and never were determined soldiers. They believe in balance, not in them overthrowing everything that shows a smidge of darkness. Luke went into exile to preserve balance. He specifically wanted the jedi to stop existing because they kept fucking with the balance of things.

Not to say that the story couldn't have been written any other way, but it makes sense as it stands for Luke's character.

@quid_pro_bono: Unlike some, I don't believe that Luke's character is some untouchable sacred cow. But, I do think the reason there's so much fan pushback on it was that they didn't connect the dots from A to B very well.

This could have easily been fixed with a 20 min flashback at the beginning of the movie showing why Luke felt he had to kill Kylo. A mounting feeling of unease, a slow usurpation of his authority by his prize student, maybe a previous student who had fallen to the darkside. Almost a horror movie vibe with the climax being the Luke standing over a Sleeping Kylo scene. This puts fans back on solid ground when it comes to Luke's character and in the following scene when he throws away the lightsaber you understand why and where he's coming from.

Instead we got, "I felt darkness in him." Golden rule of story telling: Show, don't tell.